Pat Robertson and Haiti

[OldMan]

I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
including things like this earthquake.

I disagree with him completely. I do not know what Haiti did during
their revolution against the French. But I do not believe that God
has been targeting them ever since. Nor do I believe that he caused
yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
kind of lesson, or for any other reason. Pat Robertson is just full
of it.

[George Chalkin]

> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> including things like this earthquake.
>

The Buddhists might think it was karma.

[Drafterman]

Barring God coming down himself to settle the matter with indisputable
finality, what resource is there for us mere humans to have confidence
in one conclusion over the other?

[OldMan]

On Jan 13, 5:54 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Barring God coming down himself to settle the matter with indisputable
> finality, what resource is there for us mere humans to have confidence
> in one conclusion over the other?

If earthquakes, other 'natural disasters' and disease targeted only
non-Christian locations, and especially if any Christians in targeted
areas were spared, then it might be reasonable to assume that
relationship with God had something to do with what was happening. If
those things seem to target Christian and non-Christian equally, then
I see no reason to believe that God is punishing unbelief with these
actions.

[Timothy 1:4a]

What a stupid, heartless bastard he is.

Stupid not to see that ungodliness and natural disasters do not
correlate, which is pretty conclusive evidence that there is no causal
relationship between them.

Heartless to say such a thing to a country where millions of people
are mourning their dead, and do not need the added aggravation of
hating him for his arrogance and ignorance.

On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

[Timothy 1:4a]

CBC radio reported the sad case of a Mennonite woman who just went to
Haiti to perform medical missionary work, and died within 30 minutes
of landing on the island. I hope one of her family members gets a
chance to punch Robertson in the nose.

[Think]

Hi Old Man, I agree Pat Robertson's statements were misguided. His
statements are really directed at raising money. Humans frequently
deceive themselves when they attempt to differentiate their group from
other groups. Usually it takes the form of members of the in group
being better and the out group being defective, inferior or just plain
wrong. In this case, his listeners are blessed and the Haitians are
cursed. His intention to help them is commendable but actions are
what matter more. He is using such deception to prompt his listeners
to send him money.

Whether the money donated will actually be spent wisely to relieve
suffering in Haiti unknown. There seems to be very lax accountability
when it comes to religious donations. Pat happens to be a very
wealthy man.

On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

[Think]

Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
earlier life. We live in a causal universe so there is something to
be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another. But
the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
thinking more than anything. And when karma is attributed to prior
lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.

[George Chalkin]

Fuck you asswipe.

> > of it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Simon Ewins]

On 13/01/2010 9:37 PM, Think wrote:
> Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
> fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
> earlier life. We live in a causal universe so there is something to
> be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another. But
> the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
> thinking more than anything. And when karma is attributed to prior
> lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.

Karma and reincarnation are not necessarily Buddhist, there are many
different groups of Buddhists. Yogacara Buddhists hold a strong belief
in what they call karmic seeds but it is nothing like what most commonly
believe karma to be. I studied Wei Shi Buddhism and can assure you that
karma and reincarnation are not a part of my beliefs.

Just FYI.

>
> On Jan 13, 8:39 pm, George Chalkin<georgechal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
>>> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
>>> they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
>>> including things like this earthquake.
>>
>> The Buddhists might think it was karma.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 5:19 pm, OldMan<edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
>>> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
>>> they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
>>> including things like this earthquake.
>>
>>> I disagree with him completely. I do not know what Haiti did during
>>> their revolution against the French. But I do not believe that God
>>> has been targeting them ever since. Nor do I believe that he caused
>>> yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
>>> kind of lesson, or for any other reason. Pat Robertson is just full
>>> of it.

--
Virtual Gods: http://users3.jabry.com/sjewins/library/__philorelig.htm

"Your work is to discover your world and then with all your heart give
yourself to it."
[Buddha]

[TRUECRISTIANBorn Again Fundamentalist Christianity ]]

On 14 jan, 00:44, Simon Ewins <sjew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/01/2010 9:37 PM, Think wrote:
>
> > Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
> > fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
> > earlier life.  We live in a causal universe so there is something to
> > be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another.  But
> > the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
> > thinking more than anything.  And when karma is attributed to prior
> > lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.
>
> Karma and reincarnation are not necessarily Buddhist, there are many
> different groups of Buddhists. Yogacara Buddhists hold a strong belief
> in what they call karmic seeds but it is nothing like what most commonly

Jesus has brought you here to our forum for a reason: He wants you to
be saved and enjoy his grace. Why do you hate Jesus? What kind of name
is Hellspawn? Your first step into accepting Jesus as your savior will
have to be getting a new name for you. He does not appreciate the one
you have chosen. How about MorningGlory? Or Sunflower? Those are much
more appealing, and less likely to scare your children.

[George Chalkin]

> Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
> fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
> earlier life.
>

What would you know about it, are you Buddhist, or just some sort of
know-it-all dork.

>
> We live in a causal universe so there is something to
> be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another.
>

Oh really, what a stunningly simplistic and stupid statement to make.

>
> But
> the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
> thinking more than anything.
>

You don't come across as a Buddhist, what are you, some sort of
universal brain? "Think", how original.

>
> And when karma is attributed to prior
> lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.
>

No kidding.
>

[hucktunes]

"PAT ROBERTSON: And, you know, Kristi, something happened a long time
ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were
under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever. And
they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, "We will
serve you if you will get us free from the French." True story. And
so, the devil said, "OK, it's a deal."

And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and
got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one
thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is
one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the
other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is
prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate
poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a
great turning to God. And out of this tragedy, I'm optimistic
something good may come. But right now, we're helping the suffering
people, and the suffering is unimaginable."

Here's the video, http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/785.html.

Pat Robertson is a pompous ass. True story.

On Jan 13, 5:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

[George Chalkin]

> Pat Robertson is a pompous ass. True story.
>

That statement was made at 6:31 ET.
>
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.updates/
>

On Jan 13, 6:56 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "PAT ROBERTSON: And, you know, Kristi, something happened a long time
> ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were
> under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever. And
> they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, "We will
> serve you if you will get us free from the French." True story. And
> so, the devil said, "OK, it's a deal."
>
> And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and
> got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one
> thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is
> one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the
> other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is
> prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate
> poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a
> great turning to God. And out of this tragedy, I'm optimistic
> something good may come. But right now, we're helping the suffering
> people, and the suffering is unimaginable."
>

> Here's the video,http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/785.html.

>
> Pat Robertson is a pompous ass. True story.
>
> On Jan 13, 5:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > including things like this earthquake.
>
> > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full

[hucktunes]

News sure travels fast thanks to the internet.

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Think <teddy...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
earlier life.  We live in a causal universe so there is something to
be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another.  But
the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
thinking more than anything.  And when karma is attributed to prior
lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.

Yes I agree. Karma without the the dualism beliefs like afterlife is simply cause and effect and isn't unreasonable if that's where it remained.

Unfortunately it doesn't do that. It gets taken farther and then becomes an absurdity based on current knowledge.

--
-------------------------
"Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer

Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."  -- H.L. Mencken.

Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no feet."  ~Joseph Joubert

[George Chalkin]

> News sure travels fast thanks to the internet.
>

But you never know who might be listening, can you say FISA?
>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Simon Ewins <sje...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 13/01/2010 9:37 PM, Think wrote:

Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
earlier life.  We live in a causal universe so there is something to
be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another.  But
the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
thinking more than anything.  And when karma is attributed to prior
lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.

Karma and reincarnation are not necessarily Buddhist, there are many different groups of Buddhists. Yogacara Buddhists hold a strong belief in what they call karmic seeds but it is nothing like what most commonly believe karma to be. I studied Wei Shi Buddhism and can assure you that karma and reincarnation are not a part of my beliefs.

Just FYI.

Karma is a dualist belief and some Buddhist religions believe in it as a reincarnation concept.

So, he or she isn't wrong, even if some Buddhist religions don't.

I think he or she just intended that as a general statement.

[philosophy]

On Jan 14, 12:30 pm, Think <teddybe...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Hi Old Man, I agree Pat Robertson's statements were misguided.  His
> statements are really directed at raising money.  

I bet he wants all of ours. Why doesn't he spend some of his millions
which he has collected over the years from people who could probably
ill afford to donate to his type of shit?

[philosophy]

On Jan 14, 12:37 pm, Think <teddybe...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Yes, one of the tragedies of Buddhist belief is that the less
> fortunate might be viewed as having caused their misfortune in an
> earlier life.  We live in a causal universe so there is something to
> be said for the concept of karma, one thing does lead to another.  But
> the whole notion of reincarnation seems to be based on wishful
> thinking more than anything.  And when karma is attributed to prior
> lives is when the idea becomes a bit ugly, imho.

Yup, just like the christian concepts of hell and burning for all
eternity.

[George Chalkin]

> > Hi Old Man, I agree Pat Robertson's statements were misguided. His
> > statements are really directed at raising money.
>
> I bet he wants all of ours. Why doesn't he spend some of his millions
> which he has collected over the years from people who could probably
> ill afford to donate to his type of shit?
>

Sounds like an apologist.
>

[Think]

Hi philosophy, yes, it would be very enlightening to find out how much
Pat Robertson is donating to the relief efforts. I wonder if he feels
he's doing enough by using this tragedy to raise funds.

I'm currently reading William Lobdell's "Losing My Religion" in which
he writes about TBN and how intimidated people were to talk with him
about their operations. And even after their misuse of funds was
publicized they continued to rake in millions. The publicity was seen
as the work of Satan trying to derail their "godly" efforts. Some
people will believe anything.

[dali_70]

On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> including things like this earthquake.
>

Pat Robertson is a hypocritical fucktard. He never ceases to amaze me
with his utter stupidity.
It seems like every time this douche opens mouth he says something
insensitive and downright idiotic.

[e_space]

pat robertson is full of two things ... himself and a whole lot of
crap. he continuously gives religion a black eye, sorta like observer
does for atheism. in a way i can understand the disdain of atheists
toward religion if they rely soly on the words of these fundamental
fanatic no-brainers ... quite pathetic statements

On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

[e_space]

dang, just when i was beginning to think you were reasonable ... you
seem educated enough [so i guess slobbers likes you], but you are
still a jerk [so i guess slobbers likes you] ... ;^-(

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Jan 13, 9:06 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:

> On Jan 13, 5:54 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Barring God coming down himself to settle the matter with indisputable
> > finality, what resource is there for us mere humans to have confidence
> > in one conclusion over the other?
>
> If earthquakes, other 'natural disasters' and disease targeted only
> non-Christian locations, and especially if any Christians in targeted
> areas were spared, then it might be reasonable to assume that
> relationship with God had something to do with what was happening.  If
> those things seem to target Christian and non-Christian equally, then
> I see no reason to believe that God is punishing unbelief with these
> actions.

How do you determine wheter a location is "non-Christian" and whether
or not "Christians" were spared?

>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > > including things like this earthquake.
>
> > > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full

[thea]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Drafterman <draft...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 13, 9:06 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Jan 13, 5:54 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Barring God coming down himself to settle the matter with indisputable
> > finality, what resource is there for us mere humans to have confidence
> > in one conclusion over the other?
>
> If earthquakes, other 'natural disasters' and disease targeted only
> non-Christian locations, and especially if any Christians in targeted
> areas were spared, then it might be reasonable to assume that
> relationship with God had something to do with what was happening.  If
> those things seem to target Christian and non-Christian equally, then
> I see no reason to believe that God is punishing unbelief with these
> actions.

How do you determine wheter a location is "non-Christian" and whether
or not "Christians" were spared?

 

 

 

It seems that we cannot do that in this day and age.  However, if you really look back at Sodom as being an earthquake and volcano - you see that God took *His own* (Lot and family) out of the trouble.  And I believe, that this is where Robinson gets his idea that only the non-Christian suffers.

However:

Now, if you can understand that when God sends a natural catastrophe such as this -- He is sending it on the *just and the unjust* - as God says He sends rain on the *just and the unjust*.

To say that a Christian can keep evil away - and that natural occurrances do not happen to him, there are stories floating around that tell of God's deliverance of people.

However, this is where I question things -- I have the knowledge to know that we had a 6.5 in California - and now this in the Caribbean, and it is like - o.k. I have been watching the quakes in the Western U.S. around the Yellowstone park, because they say it is a volcano.

And, I have noticed something interesting.  The quakes build up and then there will be a quake on the other side of the world.  Is this a *bell weather* phenoma, or just a curiousity that is out in left field?

 

 

>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > > including things like this earthquake.
>
> > > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full

> > > of it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[OldMan]

On Jan 14, 5:34 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 13, 9:06 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 13, 5:54 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Barring God coming down himself to settle the matter with indisputable
> > > finality, what resource is there for us mere humans to have confidence
> > > in one conclusion over the other?
>
> > If earthquakes, other 'natural disasters' and disease targeted only
> > non-Christian locations, and especially if any Christians in targeted
> > areas were spared, then it might be reasonable to assume that
> > relationship with God had something to do with what was happening.  If
> > those things seem to target Christian and non-Christian equally, then
> > I see no reason to believe that God is punishing unbelief with these
> > actions.
>
> How do you determine wheter a location is "non-Christian" and whether
> or not "Christians" were spared?

Pick any method you want. I don't suspect it would make a bit of
difference in the outcome.

>
>
>
>
>
> > > On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > > > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > > > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > > > including things like this earthquake.
>
> > > > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > > > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > > > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > > > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > > > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full
> > > > of it.- Hide quoted text -
>

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[hucktunes]

On Jan 14, 6:36 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> However, this is where I question things -- I have the knowledge to know
> that we had a 6.5 in California - and now this in the Caribbean, and it is
> like - o.k. I have been watching the quakes in the Western U.S. around the
> Yellowstone park, because they say it is a volcano.

Here's a great article about Yellowstone in National Geographic,
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/08/yellowstone/achenbach-text.
According to the article we may all be descended from a few thousand
folks that managed to survive the last big eruption.

"According to some researchers, the DNA of our own species may pay
witness to such a catastrophe around 74,000 years ago, when a
supervolcano called Toba erupted in Indonesia. The ensuing volcanic
winter may have contributed to a period of global cooling that reduced
the entire human population to a few thousand individuals—a close
shave for the human race."

On Jan 14, 6:36 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[George Chalkin]

> dang, just when i was beginning to think you were reasonable ... you
> seem educated enough [so i guess slobbers likes you], but you are
> still a jerk [so i guess slobbers likes you] ... ;^-(
>

I use strong language so that makes me a jerk?

[Trance Gemini]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:50 PM, George Chalkin <george...@gmail.com> wrote:

> dang, just when i was beginning to think you were reasonable ... you
> seem educated enough [so i guess slobbers likes you], but you are
> still a jerk [so i guess slobbers likes you] ... ;^-(
>

I use strong language so that makes me a jerk?

He's a hypocrite since he only complains when atheists do that.

Irrespective of his occasional token complaints when one of the theist trolls yells at him.

[Kippers]

On 14 Jan, 01:19, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> including things like this earthquake.
>

Out of interest how would one go about making a pact with the devil?
Its not that I actually considering doing this but even if I was I
have no idea how I would go about it.

> I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full
> of it.

Yet presumably you believe either or both of these:
1) God could have stopped the earthquake and chose not to.
2) When god created earth he did so knowing this earthquake (and all
other earthquakes) would happen and thought for some reason that this
was a good idea.

[Kippers]

On 14 Jan, 02:10, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What a stupid, heartless bastard he is.

Lets not forget that the prevailing theodicy of the more liberal
Christians is not much better than what Pat Robertson has come out
with.

Perhaps the Christians here can correct me on this but it is my
understanding that their explanation for disasters like this is that
God decided it was actually for our own good that they happen because
they inspire feelings of empathy and cause people to come together to
help the needy.

So the “nice Christians” like Treebeard and Old Man presumably think
the disaster in Haiti is actually a good thing as Judged by their God,
and they of course defer to his Judgement and therefore believe
themselves that what happened in Haiti was a good thing. Am I
mistaken in this assumption?

>
> Stupid not to see that ungodliness and natural disasters do not
> correlate, which is pretty conclusive evidence that there is no causal
> relationship between them.
>
> Heartless to say such a thing to a country where millions of people
> are mourning their dead, and do not need the added aggravation of
> hating him for his arrogance and ignorance.

>
> On Jan 13, 8:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > including things like this earthquake.
>

> > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full

[e_space]

get your haid out of your butt for a change and see the way it really
is ... thats a good girl ;^-)

On Jan 15, 6:06 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 7:11 AM, e_space <espac...@gmail.com> wrote:

get your haid out of your butt for a change and see the way it really
is ... thats a good girl  ;^-)

"People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated
and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these
dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any
slight criticism, real or imagined."
 
Repeatedly expressing "rage" and "disdain" when people criticize your discriminatory and hypocritical behavior just demonstrates your pathological  narcissism.

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[e_space]

yawn ... another pop-up zzzzzzzzz

On Jan 15, 7:18 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> -------------------------
> "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he
> knows to be idiots."  -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no

> feet."  ~Joseph Joubert- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:22 AM, e_space <espac...@gmail.com> wrote:

yawn ... another pop-up   zzzzzzzzz

"People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated

and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these
dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any
slight criticism, real or imagined."
 

Repeatedly expressing "disdain" when people criticize your discriminatory and hypocritical behavior just demonstrates your pathological  narcissism.
 

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.

[OldMan]

On Jan 15, 3:50 am, Kippers <ro...@croft6942.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14 Jan, 02:10, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What a stupid, heartless bastard he is.
>
> Lets not forget that the prevailing theodicy of the more liberal
> Christians is not much better than what Pat Robertson has come out
> with.
>
> Perhaps the Christians here can correct me on this but it is my
> understanding that their explanation for disasters like this is that
> God decided it was actually for our own good that they happen because
> they inspire feelings of empathy and cause people to come together to
> help the needy.
>
> So the “nice Christians” like Treebeard and Old Man presumably think
> the disaster in Haiti is actually a good thing as Judged by their God,
> and they of course defer to his Judgement and therefore believe
> themselves that what happened in Haiti was a good thing.   Am I
> mistaken in this assumption?

Yes you are. I believe that the disaster in Haiti was caused because
we live on a tectonically active planet that is subject to
earthquakes. I don't believe it had anything to do with judgment.

[OldMan]

On Jan 15, 3:39 am, Kippers <ro...@croft6942.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14 Jan, 01:19, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> > over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil and
> > they need to get right with God to stop all of their problems,
> > including things like this earthquake.
>
> Out of interest how would one go about making a pact with the devil?
> Its not that I actually considering doing this but even if I was I
> have no idea how I would go about it.

Not sure. I have never given it any thought.

>
> > I disagree with him completely.  I do not know what Haiti did during
> > their revolution against the French.  But I do not believe that God
> > has been targeting them ever since.  Nor do I believe that he caused
> > yesterday's earthquake to punish them in any way, or to teach them any
> > kind of lesson, or for any other reason.  Pat Robertson is just full
> > of it.
>
> Yet presumably you believe either or both of these:
> 1) God could have stopped the earthquake and chose not to.

True

> 2) When god created earth he did so knowing this earthquake (and all
> other earthquakes) would happen and thought for some reason that this
> was a good idea.

Tectonic activity is important in shaping this planet over its 4.5
billion year history. Without it we would be living on a water
covered planet with no dry land. Earthquakes happen because our
planet is active, not because God is using them to send messages to us.

[Think]

Well I am a bit curious as to what I said that prompted your reaction.

And yes, your use of language helps define who you are. What we think
becomes what we say and what we say becomes what we do. So it's
helpful to be cognizant of what we think. If you want to grow an
apple tree you have to plant an apple seed. Planting acorns won't do.

[Think]

Oh come on! You can't see the intelligence in that design?? ;-)

[Kippers]

On 15 Jan, 15:10, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 3:50 am, Kippers <ro...@croft6942.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 14 Jan, 02:10, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > What a stupid, heartless bastard he is.
>
> > Lets not forget that the prevailing theodicy of the more liberal
> > Christians is not much better than what Pat Robertson has come out
> > with.
>
> > Perhaps the Christians here can correct me on this but it is my
> > understanding that their explanation for disasters like this is that
> > God decided it was actually for our own good that they happen because
> > they inspire feelings of empathy and cause people to come together to
> > help the needy.
>
> > So the “nice Christians” like Treebeard and Old Man presumably think
> > the disaster in Haiti is actually a good thing as Judged by their God,
> > and they of course defer to his Judgement and therefore believe
> > themselves that what happened in Haiti was a good thing.   Am I
> > mistaken in this assumption?
>
> Yes you are.  I believe that the disaster in Haiti was caused because
> we live on a tectonically active planet that is subject to
> earthquakes.  I don't believe it had anything to do with judgment.
>

But you believed God designed the planet in this way don’t you?

If so then he deliberately designed earthquakes as a feature of the
planet.

Presumably you also believe he could have stopped the earthquake but
chose not to.

What have I said here which is at odds with your belief?

[TRUECRISTIANBorn Again Fundamentalist Christianity ]]

On 15 jan, 09:06, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:50 PM, George Chalkin <georgechal...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > dang, just when i was beginning to think you were reasonable ... you
> > > seem educated enough [so i guess slobbers likes you], but you are
> > > still a jerk [so i guess slobbers likes you] ... ;^-(
>
> > I use strong language so that makes me a jerk?
>
> He's a hypocrite since he only complains when atheists do that.
>
> Irrespective of his occasional token complaints when one of the theist
> trolls yells at him.
>

If you do not repent your homosexuality,you will be in Hell for all
Eternity.Satan will be sure to please himself by raping you countless
times.Please change your ways before it's too late.Hell is real.

[Shi Ming]

[Kippers]

> Out of interest how would one go about making a pact with the devil?
> Its not that I actually considering doing this but even if I was I
> have no idea how I would go about it.

1. Find the Devil
2. Make a pact with it

Now, #1 is the tricky bit 'cause it's real hard to find things that
don't exist.

;)

[Kippers]

Yes but it didn’t have to be this way for an omnipotent creator. If
he chose so, god could have made the planet function as it does but
without earthquakes. So why did he decide it was a good idea for the
planet to undergo earthquakes?

[Trance Gemini]

Yes. Neil actually tried this and posted a request here asking the Devil to contact him so that they could negotiate something.

No response I'm afraid.
 

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[Simon Ewins]

> Yes but it didn�t have to be this way for an omnipotent creator. If

> he chose so, god could have made the planet function as it does but
> without earthquakes. So why did he decide it was a good idea for the
> planet to undergo earthquakes?

I have heard a nasty rumour that it didn't want to create such a mess
but it is so incompetent that this is just the best it could do.

Mind you, this is an completely unsubstantiated rumour.

Also I've heard that its older brother, Golly, created a much better
universe without all the mistakes. We just got the buffoon instead of
the skilled craftsman.

Bummer.

No word yet on what its younger brother, Gosh, has managed to pull off.
We all wait anxiously for news.

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Jan 15, 6:50 am, Kippers <ro...@croft6942.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14 Jan, 02:10, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What a stupid, heartless bastard he is.
>
> Lets not forget that the prevailing theodicy of the more liberal
> Christians is not much better than what Pat Robertson has come out
> with.
>
> Perhaps the Christians here can correct me on this but it is my
> understanding that their explanation for disasters like this is that
> God decided it was actually for our own good that they happen because
> they inspire feelings of empathy and cause people to come together to
> help the needy.
>
> So the “nice Christians” like Treebeard and Old Man presumably think
> the disaster in Haiti is actually a good thing as Judged by their God,
> and they of course defer to his Judgement and therefore believe
> themselves that what happened in Haiti was a good thing.   Am I
> mistaken in this assumption?

You'd have to ask them. To me, the more important point is that their
reaction to a disaster is likely to be words of sympathy and
contributions of help. Exactly what it should be.

[xeno]

On Jan 13, 5:19 pm, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems
> over the years are a result of a pact they made with the devil

He must be making an oblique reference to voodooism. I know where I'll
be sticking pins on my Pat Robertson doll.

>  I do not know what Haiti did during
> their revolution against the French.

The Haitians defeated the French in the Battle of Vertieres & declared
independence 1-14-1804.

[xeno]

On Jan 13, 5:39 pm, George Chalkin <georgechal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Buddhists might think it was karma.

At work, some woman who is disfavored by a certain clique tripped
over something & one of them remarked "instant karma". Bullies always
blamed the victim. Passive people always accept things as they are as
if that's all there can be or should be. Some pundit in today's paper
made the remark to the effect that nature allegedly has a knack of
hitting the poorest hardest as if nature is the ultimate explanation
for on-going & historical exploitation, under-development, corruption
& a lack of enforcement of building codes. So, fuck what idiots think.
Reality provides more plausible explanations.

[Bill A]

I also concur that Pat Robertson's remarks were totally obnoxious.
However, those who attach much weight to the Bible do cite the
following verses:

Psalm 18:7: Then the earth shook and trembled, the foundation of the
hills also quaked and were shaken, because He was angry.
Isaiah 24:20: The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and
totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy on it, and it will
fall, and not rise again.
Isaiah 29:6: You will be punished by the Lord of hosts with thunder
and earthquake and great noise, with storm and tempest and the flame
of devouring fire.

People who cite these Biblical verses believe "that God uses
earthquakes to get people's attention"

Personally I think that earthquakes are simply natural disasters.
I recollect that Ronald Regan, when he was campaigning for President
in 1980, was accused by one of his opponents of promoting "voodoo
economics". Regan's version of Supply Side Economics was supposed to
have some association with voodoo. I wonder if Pat Robertson would
assert that any of the setbacks this country sustained during Regan's
presidency should be interpreted as a punishment from God for Regan's
purported embrace of voodoo as a basis for US economic policy?

On Jan 14, 1:19 am, OldMan <edjarr...@msn.com> wrote:
> I just saw footage of Pat Robertson claiming that Haiti's problems

[Think]

Hi Bill, coincidently this is a great example of what I brought up in
a thread titled the framing problem. The authors of the bible were
completely unaware of plate tectonics. So the context of their
remarks was from living in a region with a specific fault line which
was only active from time to time. So while they had some experience
with seismic activity they attributed it to the wrong cause and were
ignorant of its actual cause. (I also created a thread on attribution
errors and this would also be a good candidate to add to that list.)
Had they known about global plate tectonics they might have realized
that seismic activity is a daily occurrence. Plus they might have had
a better handle on exactly how humans can trigger major earthquakes.

Pat Robertson's remarks are partly due to his primitive frame of
reference and partly due to his personal greed. After all, his
remarks were made in the context of increasing donations.

On Jan 17, 4:04 pm, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>  I also concur that Pat Robertson's remarks were totally obnoxious.
>  However, those who attach much weight to the Bible do cite the
> following verses:
>
>  Psalm 18:7: Then the earth shook and trembled, the foundation of the
> hills also quaked and were shaken, because He was angry.
>  Isaiah 24:20: The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and
> totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy on it, and it will
> fall, and not rise again.
>  Isaiah 29:6: You will be punished by the Lord of hosts with thunder
> and earthquake and great noise, with storm and tempest and the flame
> of devouring fire.
>
>  People who cite these Biblical verses believe "that God uses
> earthquakes to get people's attention"
>
>  Personally I think that earthquakes are simply natural disasters.

<snip>

[e_space]

isnt that the truth .. tv evangelists are good for one thing for me,
they bring me down to earth if im feeling too good, although i recall
the opposite one day when i allowed jimmy swaggart into my living
room. i looked at the people in the audience and saw all these
rational looking suits sitting there, and this again made me realize
that i must be a total alien freak. ;^-)

> <snip>- Hide quoted text -