Why I No Longer Believe in Hell
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>- I see no purpose in it. I do believe that God created the universe for a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who will respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
- Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. And unbelievers are cast there. But for how long? Just because the fire is undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
- If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is, then there was a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human ancestors until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity, there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that initial human population likely had no concept of God.
- Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the dominate belief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity. Dante's Inferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell rather than the Bible.
Tracey Maddow
<tracey.maddow101@gmail.com>> There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the
> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
> Inferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell rather
> than the Bible.
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
Psychopaths torture things for the fun of it, so there's a purpose.
> I do believe that God created the universe
> for a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who will
> respond to him in faith.
> I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
think.
> - Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. And
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
dillan
<dfernando@gmail.com>you're hilarious Neil!
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>dillan
<dfernando@gmail.com>he's saying.
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>
Drafterman
<drafterman@gmail.com>of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting all
of it?
On Nov 15, 1:38 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the
> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
dillan
<dfernando@gmail.com>not being original*
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>to snip what you say. It's more productive than wasting my time on
what is essentially trying to teach you basic language skills, like
word definition or being able to read for comprehension. Pay me money
first. Lots of it.
2. You *aren't* being original.
dillan
<dfernando@gmail.com>Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>If, over time, knowledge has caused you to continuously reject parts
of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting all
of it?
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Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Wow! I applaud you for this exegesis Ed!
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>type of baby do you have in that bathtub Ed?
Is it alive? Is it a wolf dressed up in a baby costume? Is the baby
just a doll with nothing inside it? Is the baby actually there, or is
it that you'd just like to have a baby?
On Nov 16, 5:28 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
Eris
<vithant@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>I don't want to interfere with Drafty's line of reasoning, but what
type of baby do you have in that bathtub Ed?
Is it alive? Is it a wolf dressed up in a baby costume? Is the baby
just a doll with nothing inside it? Is the baby actually there, or is
it that you'd just like to have a baby?
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>I'm just introducing another perspective in that the baby may not be
the desirable or essential thing you think it is; so that it may be
more worthwhile to get rid of both the water and the baby.
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Ed, please! I'm not a dill. I do know what this idiom means.
I'm just introducing another perspective in that the baby may not be
the desirable or essential thing you think it is; so that it may be
more worthwhile to get rid of both the water and the baby.
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Eris
<vithant@gmail.com>
Timbo
<thcustom@sbcglobal.net>> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
Timbo
<thcustom@sbcglobal.net>> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
> Inferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell rather
> than the Bible.
awaking from the dead, an after-life in some unknown place above the
clouds, Adam's rib. Be careful, at some point you are likely to study
all aspects of history to learn why humans came to believe these
things. You may even learn why they needed gods and other spirits. Not
to be sarcastic but telling you what happened to me and my first step
was the same (rejecting hell.)
>
> --
> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My movement away from that position started with a few books, written by Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
"If you've got the truth you can demonstrate it. Talking doesn't prove it. Show people." -- Robert A. Heinlein.
Jubal Harshaw character in Stranger in a Strange Land
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Once you have rejected hell, what is next? Talking burning brush,
awaking from the dead, an after-life in some unknown place above the
clouds, Adam's rib. Be careful, at some point you are likely to study
all aspects of history to learn why humans came to believe these
things. You may even learn why they needed gods and other spirits. Not
to be sarcastic but telling you what happened to me and my first step
was the same (rejecting hell.)
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My movement away from that position started with a few books, written by Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.Just curious Ed.How did your past experience argue for the presence of the Abrahamic God in your life in particular?
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My movement away from that position started with a few books, written by Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.Just curious Ed.How did your past experience argue for the presence of the Abrahamic God in your life in particular?Nothing different than what I have expressed many times in the past. I grew up in a Christian home, giving that belief system a head start.
I had what I believe to have been an encounter with God when I was 18 that has been ongoing since then; the indwelling presence of God. The teachings of the NT make sense to me and help explain what happened to me.
And ultimately it is by faith that I choose to believe and chose to continue to believe, although I have honestly found no reason not to believe as of yet, other than it is offensive to some.
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Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My movement away from that position started with a few books, written by Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.Just curious Ed.How did your past experience argue for the presence of the Abrahamic God in your life in particular?Nothing different than what I have expressed many times in the past. I grew up in a Christian home, giving that belief system a head start.Or perhaps it's the only reason why.
I had what I believe to have been an encounter with God when I was 18 that has been ongoing since then; the indwelling presence of God. The teachings of the NT make sense to me and help explain what happened to me.In what way? This is what I'm wondering. How specifically do you make the tie between the two.
And ultimately it is by faith that I choose to believe and chose to continue to believe, although I have honestly found no reason not to believe as of yet, other than it is offensive to some.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Without that you may have interpreted your experiences quite differently.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjar...@gmail.com> wrote:There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My movement away from that position started with a few books, written by Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.Just curious Ed.How did your past experience argue for the presence of the Abrahamic God in your life in particular?Nothing different than what I have expressed many times in the past. I grew up in a Christian home, giving that belief system a head start.Or perhaps it's the only reason why.Or perhaps not.I had what I believe to have been an encounter with God when I was 18 that has been ongoing since then; the indwelling presence of God. The teachings of the NT make sense to me and help explain what happened to me.In what way? This is what I'm wondering. How specifically do you make the tie between the two.Christianity claims that God's spirit lives within the believer (John 14:16-17). From above you see that I believe that to be true about myself. I know of no other religion that makes this claim.Not that I'm advocating that you become a Sikh or anything like that but if that's you're only criteria ...."Guru Nanak says: "Your beloved is close to you, O foolish bride! What are you searching outside?" (GG, 722), and Guru Amar Das reassures: "Recognize yourself, O mind! You are the light manifest. Rejoice in Guru's instruction that God is always with (in) you. If you recognize your Self, you shall know the Lord and shall get the knowledge of life and death" (GG, 441)."Anyway I guess my point is that perhaps it was your childhood indoctrination that determined:1. How you would interpret the experience, that is, as a connection to God.2. As well as which God you determined it to be.And perhaps not! Your argument would carry more weight if I was one who was afraid of change and clung tightly to every belief.
But even this thread demonstrates that that is not the case. I am willing to change if convinced otherwise.And, perhaps it was your childhood indoctrination that determined your lack of belief in God rather than any real examination of the possibility.
Now I know that the preceding sentence is offense to you. So why do you suppose it is OK to go the other way with it?
Timbo
<thcustom@sbcglobal.net>On Nov 16, 10:59 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Once you have rejected hell, what is next? Talking burning brush,
> > awaking from the dead, an after-life in some unknown place above the
> > clouds, Adam's rib. Be careful, at some point you are likely to study
> > all aspects of history to learn why humans came to believe these
> > things. You may even learn why they needed gods and other spirits. Not
> > to be sarcastic but telling you what happened to me and my first step
> > was the same (rejecting hell.)
>
> Thanks for your concern. I love history and science both and enjoy reading
> about our past and how the creation works. But so far I have read nothing
> that would push me away from a belief in a personal God.
you have read. If you love history then you most likely have
encountered many writings in mainstream history that give false
impressions by either poor research or simply leaving out resourced
material that damages a view. My studies in history were based around
human communication, art, and artifacts. In order for me to understand
how humans communicated, I had to make comparisons of like
communications in unlike regions. Saying that, I cannot make a
statement about humans in general if it does not happen in the same
manner in unlike regions.
Understanding that the absolute history of communication involves much
more than reading about sign language, written, iconology,
archaeology, architecture and cave paintings. Understanding absolute
history involves the study of how all these things are related to form
a human idea that can be held to the test of unlike regions. When an
image of a snake or a sunburst is painted on a 7,000 year old pot in
Peru and also painted on a pot in Ethiopia, it makes it's own
statement about human ideas, fears and needs. When you study the
interworkings by leaving mainstream history and learn about things
like red pigment being more valuable than gold through a lengthy era,
you start getting a more complete history of human needs and fears.
Sure we can debunk a lot of historic fact as agenda biased view. To
actually learn what God is, one needs to take the unbiased approach of
comparing historic statements and eliminating what cannot hold true
about God and what can be held true about God.
>
> --
> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 15, 1:28 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If, over time, knowledge has caused you to continuously reject parts
> > of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting all
> > of it?
>
> Just throw the baby out with the wash?
recognizing that there's no baby there. You show that you can think
rationally about some of your beliefs, but you hold onto the nucleus
without applying the same analysis to it that you apply to some of the
parts. Believing in any of it is as illogical as are the parts you
have described as being wrong. Does it make sense to remove some
illogical parts from their nucleus and keep the nucleus, which has no
more evidence or logic behind it than the parts you have decided to
jettison on logical grounds?
.......
.....
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 16, 9:32 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
religion makes it has no bearing on its validity in Christianity. No
other religion but Islam makes the claim that Mohammad is God's
messenger. Does that mean the claim is valid?
.......
......
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Now I know that the preceding sentence is offense to you. So why do you suppose it is OK to go the other way with it?You're drawing a false parallel which is based on a false premise.
The false premise is that one can be indoctrinated into a lack of belief and that is a valid parallel to religious belief.It isn't.A lack of belief and a lack of indoctrination into religious belief isn't the equivalent to having a belief and being indoctrinated.
Nor does it work the same way when interpreting or determining one's beliefs.
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
On Nov 15, 1:28ápm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:LL. Sometimes it's a matter of throwing away ALL of the bathwater and
> > If, over time, knowledge has caused you to continuously reject parts
> > of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting all
> > of it?
>
> Just throw the baby out with the wash?
recognizing that there's no baby there. You show that you can think
rationally about some of your beliefs, but you hold onto the nucleus
without applying the same analysis to it that you apply to some of the
parts.
Believing in any of it is as illogical as are the parts you
have described as being wrong.
Does it make sense to remove some
illogical parts from their nucleus and keep the nucleus, which has no
more evidence or logic behind it than the parts you have decided to
jettison on logical grounds?
.......
.....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 15, 1:38 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the
> > > most part I have not participated in them. áI think my position is known,
> > > even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. áThis thread is not an
> > > attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. áRather it
> > is
> > > a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> > > 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. áI took everything the
> > > Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. áMy
> > > movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> > > Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> > > billions of years old. áIt was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> > > embracing it. áSome years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> > > Evolution. áAs you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of
> > much
> > > of what I had formerly accepted as true. áUltimately I questioned just
> > > about everything, including the existence of God. áBut that belief
> > remained
> > > firm throughout. áMy past experience argued for his presence in my life
> > as
> > > did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> > > But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. áI still
> > > accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> > > creation, including burning us alive for eternity. áBut I do not believe
> > > that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> > > á á- I see no purpose in it. áI do believe that God created the universe> > > á áapostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> > > á áfor a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who will
> > > á árespond to him in faith. áI simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> > > á áconscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> > > á á- Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. áAnd
> > > á áunbelievers are cast there. áBut for how long? áJust because the fire
> > is
> > > á áundying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. áThe writings of the
> > > á á- If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is, then there
> > > á áwas a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human
> > ancestors
> > > á áuntil we became human. áIf all unbelievers are cast into Hell for
> > eternity,
> > > á áthere must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls
> > became
> > > á áeternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. áEven though that> > > á áinitial human population likely had no concept of God.
> > > á á- Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the dominate
> > > á ábelief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity.
> > áDante's
> > > á áInferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell
> > rather
> > > á áthan the Bible.
>
> > > --
> > > Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
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Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
.......
......
>> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
>
> >> And ultimately it is by faith that I choose to believe and chose to
> >> continue to believe, although I have honestly found no reason not to
> >> believe as of yet, other than it is offensive to some.
>
> --
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Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Otherwise you are playing a double standard game. You were taught something, whether explicitly or not about god in your upbringing. If you are not taught explicitly that there is a god then you are implicitly being taught that there is not one. But in either case your upbringing impacts your belief, or lack thereof, in a god.Now I know that the preceding sentence is offense to you. So why do you suppose it is OK to go the other way with it?You're drawing a false parallel which is based on a false premise.Told you so :)
The false premise is that one can be indoctrinated into a lack of belief and that is a valid parallel to religious belief.It isn't.A lack of belief and a lack of indoctrination into religious belief isn't the equivalent to having a belief and being indoctrinated.Nor does it work the same way when interpreting or determining one's beliefs.Of course not, because then you would have to apply the same standard to your own positions.
Eris
<vithant@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>--
"If you've got the truth you can demonstrate it. Talking doesn't prove it. Show people." -- Robert A. Heinlein.
Jubal Harshaw character in Stranger in a Strange Land
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Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>--
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Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Where? You asserted that could occur. I don't recall any explanation of how that occurs.Otherwise you are playing a double standard game. You were taught something, whether explicitly or not about god in your upbringing.
If you are not taught explicitly that there is a god then you are implicitly being taught that there is not one.
But in either case your upbringing impacts your belief, or lack thereof, in a god.
Alexia
<abeane43103@gmail.com>To heaven? Is that where she thinks she's going? Is she really that sure of going to a place that isn't even on a map? And how can she be sure she'd like it once she got there?
I have read that first through third century bibles don't mention hell. But I don't have access to one. Anyone knowledgeable about this era?
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Alexia
<abeane43103@gmail.com>To heaven? Is that where she thinks she's going? Is she really that
sure of going to a place that isn't even on a map? And how can she be
sure she'd like it once she got there?
Jenna, The Adoration of Jenna Fox
I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to
it laughing.
--Stubb in Moby Dick
On Nov 15, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> I don't want to interfere with Drafty's line of reasoning, but what
> type of baby do you have in that bathtub Ed?
>
> Is it alive? Is it a wolf dressed up in a baby costume? Is the baby
> just a doll with nothing inside it? Is the baby actually there, or is
> it that you'd just like to have a baby?
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 5:28 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> If, over time, knowledge has caused you to continuously reject parts
>>> of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting
>>> all
>>> of it?
>>
>> Just throw the baby out with the wash?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim.
>>>> I still
>>>> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
>>>> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not
>>>> believe
>>>> that is the case for the following reasons:
>>
>>>> - I see no purpose in it. I do believe that God created the
>>>> universe
>>>> for a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people
>>>> who will
>>>> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an
>>>> eternal
>>>> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
>>>> - Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms.
>>>> And
>>>> unbelievers are cast there. But for how long? Just because
>>>> the fire
>>> is
>>>> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings
>>>> of the
>>>> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting
>>>> unbelievers.
>>>> - If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is,
>>>> then there
>>>> was a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human
>>> ancestors
>>>> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell
>>>> for
>>> eternity,
>>>> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our
>>>> souls
>>> became
>>>> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even
>>>> though that
>>>> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
>>>> - Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the
>>>> dominate
>>>> belief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity.
>>> Dante's
>>>> Inferno has really served to popularize the current picture of
>>>> Hell
>>> rather
>>>> than the Bible.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>> atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>>
>> --
>> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
Alexia
<abeane43103@gmail.com>remember anything about it...
My little kiddie bible certainly didn't have anything...
My first step was rejecting Santa claus and the toothfairy at 9...
I stopped praying a year later...
And then just a couple years ago, poof! I'm an atheist... Hehehe,
drama club is catching up with me... :)
To heaven? Is that where she thinks she's going? Is she really that
sure of going to a place that isn't even on a map? And how can she be
sure she'd like it once she got there?
Jenna, The Adoration of Jenna Fox
I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to
it laughing.
--Stubb in Moby Dick
On Nov 16, 2011, at 2:11 AM, Timbo <thcu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 15, 1:38ápm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and
>> for the
>> most part I have not participated in them. áI think my position is
>> known,
>> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. áThis thread is
>> not an
>> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. áRath
>> er it is
>> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>>
>> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. áI took everythin
>> g the
>> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative
>> . áMy
>> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
>> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were
>> actually
>> billions of years old. áIt was a convincing argument to me and I e
>> nded up
>> embracing it. áSome years later it was repeated with the Theory of
>> Evolution. áAs you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation
>> of much
>> of what I had formerly accepted as true. áUltimately I questioned
>> just
>> about everything, including the existence of God. áBut that belief
>> remained
>> firm throughout. áMy past experience argued for his presence in my
>> life as
>> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>>
>> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. á
>> I still
>> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
>> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. áBut I do not b
>> elieve
>> that is the case for the following reasons:
>>
>> á á- I see no purpose in it. áI do believe that God created the un
>> iverse
>> á áfor a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who
>> will
>> á árespond to him in faith. áI simply can't see any reason for an
>> eternal
>> á áconscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
>> á á- Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. á
>> And
>> á áunbelievers are cast there. áBut for how long? áJust because
>> the fire is
>> á áundying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. áThe writings of
>> the
>> á áapostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelieve
>> rs.
>> á á- If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is, then
>> there
>> á áwas a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human
>> ancestors
>> á áuntil we became human. áIf all unbelievers are cast into Hell f
>> or eternity,
>> á áthere must have been a distinct time when we became human, our
>> souls became
>> á áeternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. áEven thou
>> gh that
>> á áinitial human population likely had no concept of God.
>> á á- Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the do
>> minate
>> á ábelief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity.
>> áDante's
>> á áInferno has really served to popularize the current picture of
>> Hell rather
>> á áthan the Bible.
>
> Once you have rejected hell, what is next? Talking burning brush,
> awaking from the dead, an after-life in some unknown place above the
> clouds, Adam's rib. Be careful, at some point you are likely to study
> all aspects of history to learn why humans came to believe these
> things. You may even learn why they needed gods and other spirits. Not
> to be sarcastic but telling you what happened to me and my first step
> was the same (rejecting hell.)
>>
>> --
>> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
>
Alexia
<abeane43103@gmail.com>To heaven? Is that where she thinks she's going? Is she really that sure of going to a place that isn't even on a map? And how can she be sure she'd like it once she got there?
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>For the record: I don't assume that dillan speaks for Ed Jarret.
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
--
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>On Nov 16, 5:27 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For the record: I don't assume that dillan speaks for Ed Jarret.
>
> Good call.
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
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Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>On Nov 16, 7:33 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 5:27 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > For the record: I don't assume that dillan speaks for Ed Jarret.
>
> > > Good call.
>
> > Jarrett, sorry. I once saw Keith Jarrett in concert, any relation?
>
> Not that I know of.
chew some poor woman out who happened to have a coughing fit at the
wrong time.
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 16, 7:33 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 5:27 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > For the record: I don't assume that dillan speaks for Ed Jarret.
>
> > > Good call.
>
> > Jarrett, sorry. I once saw Keith Jarrett in concert, any relation?
>
> Not that I know of. Not related to Dale Jarrett the race car driver either.
to most Jarretts in the world. My own name is not rare and I've looked
it up in phone books in many states and countries around the world. It
almost always appears multiple times. As far as I can tell, I am not
related to any of them. Having done a lot of genealogical research, I
have a fairly good fix on where most of my relatives with the same
name are.
******
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>I guess they don't teach kids about hell much these days, cuz I don't remember anything about it...
My little kiddie bible certainly didn't have anything...
My first step was rejecting Santa claus and the toothfairy at 9...
I stopped praying a year later...
And then just a couple years ago, poof! I'm an atheist... Hehehe, drama club is catching up with me... :)
To heaven? Is that where she thinks she's going? Is she really that sure of going to a place that isn't even on a map? And how can she be sure she'd like it once she got there?
Jenna, The Adoration of Jenna Fox
I know not all that may be coming, but be it what it will, I'll go to it laughing.
--Stubb in Moby Dick
On Nov 15, 1:38ápm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the
most part I have not participated in them. áI think my position is known,
even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. áThis thread is not an
attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. áRather it is
a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. áI took everything the
Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. áMy
movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
billions of years old. áIt was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
embracing it. áSome years later it was repeated with the Theory of
Evolution. áAs you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
of what I had formerly accepted as true. áUltimately I questioned just
about everything, including the existence of God. áBut that belief remained
firm throughout. áMy past experience argued for his presence in my life as
did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. áI still
accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
creation, including burning us alive for eternity. áBut I do not believe
that is the case for the following reasons:
á á- I see no purpose in it. áI do believe that God created the universe
á áfor a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who will
á árespond to him in faith. áI simply can't see any reason for an eternal
á áconscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
á á- Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. áAnd
á áunbelievers are cast there. áBut for how long? áJust because the fire is
á áundying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. áThe writings of the
á áapostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
á á- If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is, then there
á áwas a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human ancestors
á áuntil we became human. áIf all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
á áthere must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
á áeternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. áEven though that
á áinitial human population likely had no concept of God.
á á- Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the dominate
á ábelief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity. áDante's
á áInferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell rather
á áthan the Bible.
Once you have rejected hell, what is next? Talking burning brush,
awaking from the dead, an after-life in some unknown place above the
clouds, Adam's rib. Be careful, at some point you are likely to study
all aspects of history to learn why humans came to believe these
things. You may even learn why they needed gods and other spirits. Not
to be sarcastic but telling you what happened to me and my first step
was the same (rejecting hell.)
--
Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
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Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
Alan Wostenberg
<awosty@gmail.com>Ed, your second bullet reminds me of CS Lewis _the great divorce_. Have you read it? Referring to that, Peter Kreeft points out
"Hell is not eternal life with torture but something far worse: eternal dying. What goes to hell, said C. S. Lewis, is 'not a man, but remains' ".
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Ed, your second bullet reminds me of CS Lewis _the great divorce_. Have you read it? Referring to that, Peter Kreeft points out
"Hell is not eternal life with torture but something far worse: eternal dying. What goes to hell, said C. S. Lewis, is 'not a man, but remains' ".
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Ed Jarrett
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 16, 1:20 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:57 PM, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 15, 1:28ápm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > If, over time, knowledge has caused you to continuously reject parts
> > > > of scripture, why not notice the trend and extrapolate, rejecting all
> > > > of it?
>
> > > Just throw the baby out with the wash?
>
> > LL. Sometimes it's a matter of throwing away ALL of the bathwater and
> > recognizing that there's no baby there. You show that you can think
> > rationally about some of your beliefs, but you hold onto the nucleus
> > without applying the same analysis to it that you apply to some of the
> > parts.
>
> And why would you believe that?
LL. It's not a belief, but my opinion. There is a big difference
between belief and opinion. I will change my opinion is I am presented
with objective evidence that a god exists.
>
> > Believing in any of it is as illogical as are the parts you
> > have described as being wrong.
>
> That I have reached a different conclusion than you automatically makes me
> wrong?
LL. No, it doesn't necessarily make you wrong. In the end, I coukd
be wronger you could be wrong. We may never know during our
lifetimes.
OM. Maybe it's not me that has reached the wrong conclusion.
LL. That's always possible. But I'm ready to rethink my position based
on objective evidence. Are you?
........
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 16, 2:54 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Trance Gemini <
> >>>> trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Trance Gemini <
> >>>>>> trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
LL. How about me and people like me, Ed? I was raised being taught
there was a god and I believed it without much doubt throughout my
childhood. I don't remember having any serious doubts about god or the
Catholic church until I reached adulthood. Where did my doubts about
god come from? No one indoctrinated me into non-belief. It was
something that came to me gradually and I had no one leading me but
myself. I barely knew another atheist. I read some books on the
subject that seemed to make sense but I was not coerced. I rejected
the concept of atheism for quite a while until I just couldn't reject
it any more. Becoming an atheist was not something I intended to do.
I hated having to disappoint my father, too. I still have nightmares
about it.
......
.....
LL
<llpens@aol.com>
LL. Sorry about that middle sentence. Blame it on the iPad spelling
corrector. It should be "I could be wrong or you could be wrong." As
far as I know there is no word, "wronger". I don't kmow where iPad
gets it's corrections. Meanwhile, it didn't correct my typo, "coukd".
Go figure!
.......
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>--
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
On Nov 16, 1:23 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:02 PM, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 9:32 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Trance Gemini <
> > trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > >>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > >>>> There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for
> > > >>>> the most part I have not participated in them. I think my position
> > is
> > > >>>> known, even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This
> > thread is
> > > >>>> not an attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position.
> > Rather
> > > >>>> it is a more detailed description of my position and how I came to
> > hold it.
>
> > > >>>> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything
> > the
> > > >>>> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative.
> > My
> > > >>>> movement away from that position started with a few books, written
> > by
> > > >>>> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were
> > actually
> > > >>>> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I
> > ended up
> > > >>>> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> > > >>>> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation
> > of much
> > > >>>> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned
> > just
> > > >>>> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief
> > remained
> > > >>>> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my
> > life as
> > > >>>> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> > > >>> Just curious Ed.
>
> > > >>> How did your past experience argue for the presence of the Abrahamic
> > God
> > > >>> in your life in particular?
>
> > > >> Nothing different than what I have expressed many times in the past.
> > I
> > > >> grew up in a Christian home, giving that belief system a head start.
>
> > > > Or perhaps it's the only reason why.
>
> > > Or perhaps not.
>
> > > >> I had what I believe to have been an encounter with God when I was 18
> > > >> that has been ongoing since then; the indwelling presence of God. The
> > > >> teachings of the NT make sense to me and help explain what happened
> > to me.
>
> > > > In what way? This is what I'm wondering. How specifically do you make
> > the
> > > > tie between the two.
>
> > > Christianity claims that God's spirit lives within the believer (John
> > > 14:16-17). From above you see that I believe that to be true about
> > myself.
> > > I know of no other religion that makes this claim.
>
> lL. I don't know, I guess it's a habit. I have a need to explain why I think differently. But, it's true, while not agreeing I do understand where you're coming from (probably more than you realize and more than it would appear from my posts).> > LL. But does that mean it's a valid claim? The fact that no other
> > religion makes it has no bearing on its validity in Christianity. No
> > other religion but Islam makes the claim that Mohammad is God's
> > messenger. Does that mean the claim is valid?
>
> No. But Trance asked my why one over the other and I provided her with an
> answer. Unfortunately my answers are seldom accepted as valid because they
> don't jive with yours or Trances or most others here. What is wrong with
> saying, 'OK, while not agreeing, I do understand' rather than always 'Yes,
> but ...'.
>
>
--
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>
friendhis@yahoo.com
<friendhis@yahoo.com>from an early age. And I was told that sinners would go there, but
that there was grace and forgiveness to save us from it.
Somehow, the message about the grace and forgiveness came with a lot
of conditions, even though the word grace means 'undeserved favor'.
For many years I held the view that any people not meeting the
'conditions' for grace woud go to hell but gradually I began to
understand the meaning of grace better and I now think there is a
hell, but I don't see why any human would end up there.
I am not a "Universalist" or a believer in what is called "Ultimate
Reconciliation". I think that belief in Jesus is what saves us from
hell but I am convinced that Jesus will do whatever he has to do to
get us to believe. I can't explain why some people appear to go to
their grave in defiant unbelief - that would seem to contradict my
idea that all will believe. I suspect that Jesus meets the
unbeliever, perhaps at the moment of death and he offers the proof
that they demand (like he did for Thomas).
I suppose that the idea that unbelievers might go to hell for a little
while, until they believe in Jesus, might be similar to what I am
saying, but I can't imagine that it would take longer than one Planck
time to decide to believe under those conditions.
On Nov 15, 10:38 am, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There have been a lot of threads started recently about Hell and for the
> most part I have not participated in them. I think my position is known,
> even if not accepted or understood, by most folks. This thread is not an
> attempt to prove anything or convince anyone of my position. Rather it is
> a more detailed description of my position and how I came to hold it.
>
> 10 years ago I was a border line fundamentalist. I took everything the
> Bible said as gospel and never thought to consider any alternative. My
> movement away from that position started with a few books, written by
> Christians, that advocated that the universe and the earth were actually
> billions of years old. It was a convincing argument to me and I ended up
> embracing it. Some years later it was repeated with the Theory of
> Evolution. As you can guess that caused some serious reevaluation of much
> of what I had formerly accepted as true. Ultimately I questioned just
> about everything, including the existence of God. But that belief remained
> firm throughout. My past experience argued for his presence in my life as
> did my best attempts at trying to imagine a universe without him.
>
> But the idea of an eternal place of torture, Hell, was a victim. I still
> accept that God can do whatever he wants with us, since we are his
> creation, including burning us alive for eternity. But I do not believe
> that is the case for the following reasons:
>
> - I see no purpose in it. I do believe that God created the universe
> for a purpose, and that purpose was to produce a new people who will
> respond to him in faith. I simply can't see any reason for an eternal
> conscious punishment for those who do not respond in faith.
> - Jesus speaks of Hades as a place of undying fire and worms. And
> unbelievers are cast there. But for how long? Just because the fire is
> undying doesn't mean the fuel is not consumed. The writings of the
> apostles more generally speak of destruction awaiting unbelievers.
> - If the Theory of Evolution is true, and I believe it is, then there
> was a long transitional time from our most immediate non-human ancestors
> until we became human. If all unbelievers are cast into Hell for eternity,
> there must have been a distinct time when we became human, our souls became
> eternal, and we became subject to the fires of hell. Even though that
> initial human population likely had no concept of God.
> - Belief in the annihilation of unbelievers, while never the dominate
> belief, has been around throughout the history of Christianity. Dante's
> Inferno has really served to popularize the current picture of Hell rather
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>I was perhaps a borderline fundie, I certainly was taught about hell
from an early age. And I was told that sinners would go there, but
that there was grace and forgiveness to save us from it.
Somehow, the message about the grace and forgiveness came with a lot
of conditions, even though the word grace means 'undeserved favor'.
For many years I held the view that any people not meeting the
'conditions' for grace woud go to hell but gradually I began to
understand the meaning of grace better and I now think there is a
hell, but I don't see why any human would end up there.
I am not a "Universalist" or a believer in what is called "Ultimate
Reconciliation". I think that belief in Jesus is what saves us from
hell but I am convinced that Jesus will do whatever he has to do to
get us to believe. I can't explain why some people appear to go to
their grave in defiant unbelief - that would seem to contradict my
idea that all will believe. I suspect that Jesus meets the
unbeliever, perhaps at the moment of death and he offers the proof
that they demand (like he did for Thomas).
I suppose that the idea that unbelievers might go to hell for a little
while, until they believe in Jesus, might be similar to what I am
saying, but I can't imagine that it would take longer than one Planck
time to decide to believe under those conditions.
Ed Jarrett
<edjarrett53@gmail.com>I was perhaps a borderline fundie, I certainly was taught about hell
from an early age. And I was told that sinners would go there, but
that there was grace and forgiveness to save us from it.
Somehow, the message about the grace and forgiveness came with a lot
of conditions, even though the word grace means 'undeserved favor'.
For many years I held the view that any people not meeting the
'conditions' for grace woud go to hell but gradually I began to
understand the meaning of grace better and I now think there is a
hell, but I don't see why any human would end up there.
I am not a "Universalist" or a believer in what is called "Ultimate
Reconciliation". I think that belief in Jesus is what saves us from
hell but I am convinced that Jesus will do whatever he has to do to
get us to believe. I can't explain why some people appear to go to
their grave in defiant unbelief - that would seem to contradict my
idea that all will believe. I suspect that Jesus meets the
unbeliever, perhaps at the moment of death and he offers the proof
that they demand (like he did for Thomas).
I suppose that the idea that unbelievers might go to hell for a little
while, until they believe in Jesus, might be similar to what I am
saying, but I can't imagine that it would take longer than one Planck
time to decide to believe under those conditions.
friendhis@yahoo.com
<friendhis@yahoo.com>On Nov 20, 3:00 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:41 AM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was perhaps a borderline fundie, I certainly was taught about hell
> > from an early age. And I was told that sinners would go there, but
> > that there was grace and forgiveness to save us from it.
>
> > Somehow, the message about the grace and forgiveness came with a lot
> > of conditions, even though the word grace means 'undeserved favor'.
>
> > For many years I held the view that any people not meeting the
> > 'conditions' for grace woud go to hell but gradually I began to
> > understand the meaning of grace better and I now think there is a
> > hell, but I don't see why any human would end up there.
>
> > I am not a "Universalist" or a believer in what is called "Ultimate
> > Reconciliation". I think that belief in Jesus is what saves us from
> > hell but I am convinced that Jesus will do whatever he has to do to
> > get us to believe. I can't explain why some people appear to go to
> > their grave in defiant unbelief - that would seem to contradict my
> > idea that all will believe. I suspect that Jesus meets the
> > unbeliever, perhaps at the moment of death and he offers the proof
> > that they demand (like he did for Thomas).
>
> > I suppose that the idea that unbelievers might go to hell for a little
> > while, until they believe in Jesus, might be similar to what I am
> > saying, but I can't imagine that it would take longer than one Planck
> > time to decide to believe under those conditions.
>
> And you don't see that as extortion?
>
I didn't say that was my position. I just said that I see the
similarity between that position and mine. My view is that Jesus
already went to hell for us and that he graciously leads us to believe
in him.
friendhis@yahoo.com
<friendhis@yahoo.com>On Nov 20, 4:59 pm, Ed Jarrett <edjarret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 10:41 PM, friend...@yahoo.com
> <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
I think that most Christians agree that belief in Jesus is the key to
salvation, based on scripture. The disagreements come when defining
what belief in Jesus means. So I think that my point of view is
perhaps considered scriptural, as long as I do not go into the details
of what I think it means and how I think it might be worked out. I
agree that my conjecture about Jesus doing whatever is needed to bring
all to belief in him is not explicitly found in scripture but I
consider it supportable based on God's character. I do have the one
example of Jesus doing it for Thomas.
I don't see the connection between the possibility of going to hell
and purpose in life.
I suppose it might be like the soccer league that gives trophies to
all the players on every team vs a sports league where trophies are
only given to the team that wins the championship. The argument is
that in the first league, the trophies have no meaning. I get that.
But, we're just talking about hell. The subject of the various
rewards that may come to us in the next life is another matter.
So following the sports league anaology, I am just suggesting that
perhaps the way that it set up is that no one gets "cut' from the team
- but we still play and scores and statistics are still kept and they
have meaning.
> --
> Ed Jarretthttp://aclayjar.blogspot.com/
GT
<greg.new32@gmail.com>LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Nov 19, 10:41 pm, "friend...@yahoo.com" <friend...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I was perhaps a borderline fundie, I certainly was taught about hell
> from an early age. And I was told that sinners would go there, but
> that there was grace and forgiveness to save us from it.
>
> Somehow, the message about the grace and forgiveness came with a lot
> of conditions, even though the word grace means 'undeserved favor'.
>
> For many years I held the view that any people not meeting the
> 'conditions' for grace woud go to hell but gradually I began to
> understand the meaning of grace better and I now think there is a
> hell, but I don't see why any human would end up there.
>
> I am not a "Universalist" or a believer in what is called "Ultimate
> Reconciliation". I think that belief in Jesus is what saves us from
> hell but I am convinced that Jesus will do whatever he has to do to
> get us to believe. I can't explain why some people appear to go to
> their grave in defiant unbelief - that would seem to contradict my
> idea that all will believe. I suspect that Jesus meets the
> unbeliever, perhaps at the moment of death and he offers the proof
> that they demand (like he did for Thomas).
>
> I suppose that the idea that unbelievers might go to hell for a little
> while, until they believe in Jesus, might be similar to what I am
> saying, but I can't imagine that it would take longer than one Planck
> time to decide to believe under those conditions.
LL. Well they'd certainly claim to believe. Is it actual belief if
you're tortured into it? It would be about as effective as torturing
someone to make him confess to a crime or give up state secrets--such
as outing innocent people. It looks immoral to me no matter what the
outcome the torturer wants.
......