UK MINISTERS FRIGHTENED TO SPEAK OUT!!!

[lawrey]

++++====SOONER RATHER THAN LATER====++++

And so it has come to pass sooner than expected and does not
bode well for the future democratic rule of the once Great Britain.

Some time ago when I and others warned against of the dangers,
at the site of the first mosque to appear on British soil and its
portents for the demise of democracy as we in the west know it;
I was accused of alarmist talk, Islamophobia and scare mongering.

Now today we hear from Dispatches that not only has the borough
of Tower Hamlets in London been completely taken over by the
I.F.E. ( Islamic Forum of Europe), which is a fundamentalist group,
with known affiliations with terrorists and terrorist organisations
world-wide, but no less than thirteen other towns in England are
well on the way to be taken over by I.F.E. and Thirteen million
pounds of British tax payers money has been handed out to the
favoured I.F.E organisations by Tower Hamlets council these are
Islamic groupings within the local society, that promote and
campaign for Shari'a law. They have infiltrated mainly Labour
party groups and worked by devious means to promote
themselves into high office by false balloting.

Tower Hamlets have successfully voted to apply for a Mayor
who can not be forced out for four years and who holds powers
over local govenment, I.F.E. are opposed to democracy and
have vowed to wipe it out where-ever it can gain a foothold.
Some how it has managed to curry favour with ministers and
the present government who are scared stiff to speak out for
fear of being labelled Islamophobic, have completely capitulated
and seem paralized and incapable of taking any action to prevent
further incursions into goverment.

All this in the few short years I have been a member of this group.
The well revered London mosque, praised by government officials
as a beacon to freedom and self expression and integration, has
been found to have invited terrorist leaders to speak within the
the protection of its walls and preach their filth in open forum.

WHEN WILL SOME-ONE, ANY-ONE TAKE A LEAD AND SPEAK
OUTagainst this infamous religious sect called Islam.

Islam must now be forced out of Great Britian before it is too late
if it is not already, enough is too much already. Muslims cannot
be trusted, they are ALL potential Killers by conviction.

What price freedom now? Be warned! The worst is yet to come.

[chazwin]

What a complete load of scare-mongering bollocks!

[Dead Kennedy]

and you will be prepared to take that back when Tower Hamlets elects
this arsehole as a mayor then?

> > What price freedom now? Be warned! The worst is yet to come.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[lawrey]

chazwin,

And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
yourself. Open your eyes.

[Dead Kennedy]

On 2 Mar, 09:08, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> chazwin,
>
> And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
> Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
> yourself. Open your eyes.

can we say "appeasement"

While I was working as a drug councillor (I know, go figure!) in Tower
Hamlets, I was working with a young asian lad who had a couple of
Admin qualifications but no experience or references. I'd noticed that
the East London mosque was looking for volunteers and suggested that
it would be good experience.

The young man, a devout muslim himself replied that he wouldnt want to
work at the mosque because "they are all nutcases" (his exact words).
I asked what he meant but he shook his head and became tight lipped, I
didnt persue it as it was not relevent at the time.

For a devout muslim to consider the East london mosque to be run by
"nutcases" is pretty telling.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[TLC]

chazwin,

Speaking from personal experience I can assure you that Islamic
entryism, using false members, into political parties in the UK is not
something new and the Labour Party has experienced it before. It's
been underway since the 1990's and some muslims have been expelled
from parties for stacking up their chances of selection with false or
names of members who did not even know they had joined a party.

Speaking to The Sunday Telegraph, Jim Fitzpatrick, the Environment
Minister, said the IFE had become, in effect, a secret party within
Labour and other political parties.

“They are acting almost as an entryist organisation, placing people
within the political parties, recruiting members to those political
parties, trying to get individuals selected and elected so they can
exercise political influence and power, whether it’s at local
government level or national level,” he said.

“They are completely at odds with Labour’s programme, with our support
for secularism.”

Mr Fitzpatrick, the MP for Poplar and Canning Town, said the IFE had
infiltrated and “corrupted” his party in east London in the same way
that the far-Left Militant Tendency did in the 1980s. Leaked Labour
lists show a 110 per cent rise in party membership in one constituency
in two years.

Since Mr Rahman became leader, more council grants have been paid to a
number of organisations which our investigation established are
closely linked to the IFE.

Funding for other, secular groups was ended or cut. In the borough’s
well-known Brick Lane area, council funds were switched from a largely
secular heritage trail to a highly controversial “hijab sculpture”,
angering many residents who accused the council of “religious
triumphalism”.

On 1 Mar, 22:40, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Max]

These people are simply bringing in religious trojan horses.....no ifs
buts or maybes. And watch how the BNP get a leg up & then watch the
shit really hit the fan.

Good luck boys & girls.

Forget the Argies..........it's the religious nutters you've gotta
watch out for!

[lawrey]

TLC,

Almost everything you have just written was confirmed by the
Dispatches investigations last evening.

All those witnesses are not scaremongering, they are
genuinely conserned and so they should be, some of them
are councillors and some even Muslims themselves, who
also fear the rise of the I.F.E. and its increasing headway
and drive into poitics and high office in this country.

We ignore the threat at our peril and If I sound alarmist
I am happy to be so accused if someone takes notice.

If I am Islamophobic, I am happy to be so accused. We face
a real and immanent and treacherous danger if we allow the
advance of Islam and in particular the I.F.E to have their
head. It will not be long before they have ours; such is the
awful but real dilemma we face.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:35 AM, lawrey <comment...@btinternet.com> wrote:

TLC,

Almost everything you have just written was confirmed by the
Dispatches investigations last evening.

All those witnesses are not scaremongering, they are
genuinely conserned and so they should be, some of them
are councillors and some even Muslims themselves, who
also fear the rise of the I.F.E. and its increasing headway
and drive into poitics and high office in this country.

We ignore the threat at our peril and If I sound alarmist
I am happy to be so accused if someone takes notice.

If I am Islamophobic, I am happy to be so accused. We face
a real and immanent and treacherous danger if we allow the
advance of Islam and in particular the I.F.E to have their
head. It will not be long before they have ours; such is the
awful but real dilemma we face.

 

Unfortunately it's the false charges of "islamophobia" that encourages and brings in right wing racist groups/parties like BNP and gains support for them while isolating those of us who are engaging in legitimate criticism of these activities.

 

This is, apparently, what has happened in Holland.

 

CJPAC is doing the same thing Canada and AIPAC as well as the Christian Right in the US.

 

So, this strategy isn't limited to the Islamists.

 

The problem, as Max has indicated before, is religious incursions into the political process and their attempts to influence it.

 

These religious Trojan Horses are very destructive to the Secular state.

--
"Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous

"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015

[TLC]

And within the UK political process the catholics and Protestants have
a lot more power and they wield it!

How many MP's go to meetings with Imams to decide what political line
they'll take?

How many MP's go to meetings with christian cardinals and clergy to
decide what political line they'll take? A lot!

On 2 Mar, 12:53, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:07 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

And within the UK political process the catholics and Protestants have
a lot more power and they wield it!

How many MP's go to meetings with Imams to decide what political line
they'll take?

How many MP's go to meetings with christian cardinals and clergy to
decide what political line they'll take?   A lot!

Agreed. In Canada, when the BNA Act was brought home and the Charter was being written, the Catholic Church publicly stated that all Catholic MPs (the PM was Catholic) had better support the retention of the Catholic School Board. The threat was implied and not stated.

Quite shameless of them but it worked and in Ontario, even more shamelessly, the tax payer is paying for this fucking Catholic School Board.

The RC is worth billions and they can neither pay for their own schools or the damages to the Irish children abused and raped in their care or any number of other things.

It's active interference in the political process and religion's special privilege card that results in what amounts to religious scams, abuse of the democratic process, and fraudulent misappropriation of taxpayer funds.

The Islamists have learned from the best and like the Israel lobbies (Jewish biblical extremists) who like to manipulate by playing the holocaust/anti-semitic card, they manipulate by playing the racial discrimination card.

So, if you don't agree with the racist concept of Ersatz Israel you must be anti-semitic and support the holocaust.

And, if you don't agree with the imposition of Sharia Law and the Islamic Declaration of "Rights" (a misnomer by any standard) you must be a racist "islamophobe".

Unfortunately this strategy is working all too well and the *ONLY* people that I know of who are taking a strong public stand against it are the atheists and secularists despite the charges of islamophobia, anti-semitism, and anti-christian bias, etc.


--

[Kippers]

Well put Lawrey, I share your concerns.

I see no other threat to Liberal democracy in the future other than
the threat of Islamic fascism. There is no such thing as Islamic
fundamentalism as all Muslims by definition must believe the Quran to
be the literal word of God.

Instead of pandering to them by providing Islamic ghettos and funding
Islamic faith schools the UK needs to become truly secular, not
allowing a privileged position for any religion before it’s –if it is
not already-- too late.

We both know this will not happen though. The election is looming and
neither the Conservatives nor Labour will do anything to address the
fundamental issues responsible for this. The best UK voters can do in
order to combat this is to vote for The Liberals or Green Party as
well as writing to their local MP’s to voice their concern.

[TLC]

Trance,

Could not agree with you more. It's sickening the way the un-elected
religious get on to political/ community committee's, being payed for
by the tax payer, and make decisions from their own agenda for those
they don't represent!

On 2 Mar, 13:46, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[lawrey]

DK,

Yes we can say appeasers, but this time, we in England
will be directly exposed to their folly and short-sightedness.
Islam is not just full of nutters! they are nutters on a
mission and they do not intend to loose, this country has
never been in such critical danger of being over-run.

[Sebastian]

This is democracy. They were elected and have the right to do what
they will with the money of the taxpayers that elected them. I don't
know if you noticed the hypocrisy in your post.

On Mar 1, 10:22 pm, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:

[lawrey]

Trance,

I would never have believed I could possibly say this,
but at the rate and speed at which we in this country
are being over-taken; if it takes the BNP or any other
far right-wing group to halt it. Then I say bring it on.
and lets get it over and done with sooner rather than
later. We do not want islamic rule in any town here in
England. In the old cowboy parlance "wheel 'em in, head
'em up, and move 'em out! what-ever it takes they must
be banished and let political correctness go to the
four winds. Political correctnes is what Islam thrives
on. religion of every cardre is an abomination, but
Islam is terrifying.

On Mar 2, 12:53 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

[lawrey]

Kippers,

I couldn't agree more, except I dont see the Lib-Dems and Greens
strong enough much less experienced in order to takle the task.

Well it is said that it is never too late, but we are getting
bloody nigh close, and too close for comfort.

> well as writing to their local MP’s to voice their concern.- Hide quoted text -

[Sebastian]

You want BNP to win!? All I can say is just WOW. Do you realize they
are staunchly anti-European and are ethnic nationalists (as opposed to
civic nationalists)? If anyone should be considered the enemy of the
British ideals and way of life, it is them.

[Trance Gemini]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:11 AM, lawrey <comment...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Trance,

 I would never have believed I could possibly say this,
but at the rate and speed at which we in this country
are being over-taken; if it takes the BNP or any other
far right-wing group to halt it. Then I say bring it on.
and lets get it over and done with sooner rather than
later. We do not want islamic rule in any town here in
England. In the old cowboy parlance "wheel 'em in, head
'em up, and move 'em out! what-ever it takes they must
be banished and let political correctness go to the
four winds. Political correctnes is what Islam thrives
on. religion of every cardre is an abomination, but
Islam is terrifying.

Unfortunately Lawrey, what you are expressing here is the approach that many people are taking.

I don't agree.

The BNP and other right wing extremists are as much a danger to the secular democratic process as Islam is.

Holland is finding this out.

We need a strong secular voice. That is the only solution that will result in a resolution.
 

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[lawrey]

Sebastion,

Such stupidity and blinkered vision as you demonstrate,
is what islam relies on. They are hell-bent on destroying
what little democracy there is, and it is poeple like you,
who keep shouting, "this is a democracy!" and fooling
themselves that we are; when every sensible person know
we are a police state already. that bring on our downfall
sooner rather than later.

> > What price freedom now? Be warned! The worst is yet to come.- Hide quoted text -

[Sebastian]

I agree we are a police state and THIS is something we should combat,
not INCREASE. What you are suggesting would amount to violent
deportation of these people out of the country, where they have built
their lives and well-being. And yes, this is democracy. If you don't
like it, move to North Korea.

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

You must live in a bubble and be ignorant of what is
going on all around you, most of these concils are
being taken over by ballot rigging, and there are
thirteen of them mostly in Labour strong-holds. This
all in the space of the last ten years of Labour rule.
Socialism has encouraged Islam, continues to encourage
Islam, was it not Tony Blair himself, who declared
himself in favour of some Shari'a Law. There is no
British way of life anymore it has been taken from us
by what Labour proudly boasts is immigrant integration,
except there is no integration we have been slowly
ghetto-ised. Britain for the true English at least,
has become a foreign country and unrecognisable.

No I do not want the BNP and their filth, and neither
do most lovers of England, but when push comes to shove
and they are the only people prepared to ignore the
stupidity of political correctness and speak out and
stand up for the common, indigenous population of the
country; then just as soon as they can we need them,
if only to bring the Tories to their senses, because
as sure as shit is shit, Labour will sell us out as
it has done over the last ten years.

What crap you do talk."British Ideals and way of life'?
What ideals, that this labour government has not trashed?
What way of life that this labour government has not
wrecked, bringing its people to its knees in financial
and social ruination. Wake up!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

The very last polling figures show that the majority of
England is anti-european.

I did not think to hear an Englishman tell me to go
and live in North Korea. THIS is MY country and has
been throughout the generations of MY family, throughout
the ages. I am well aware of the conditions in North Korea.
But why should I go there just because I bring the folly
of government to account for its short sighted immigration
policies;let those that brought this upon us, go there and
those that have come to ruin this once wonderful country.
I'll stay here and fight with my last breath to honour
the country of my forebears and my children.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Sebastian]

lowrey: "You must live in a bubble and be ignorant of what is

going on all around you, most of these concils are
being taken over by ballot rigging, and there are
thirteen of them mostly in Labour strong-holds. This
all in the space of the last ten years of Labour rule.
Socialism has encouraged Islam, continues to encourage
Islam, was it not Tony Blair himself, who declared
himself in favour of some Shari'a Law. There is no
British way of life anymore it has been taken from us
by what Labour proudly boasts is immigrant integration,
except there is no integration we have been slowly
ghetto-ised. Britain for the true English at least,
has become a foreign country and unrecognisable. "

What world do you live in? What Tony Blair did is to allow people to
AGREE to have a dispute, that cannot otherwise be settled by British
Law, settled through Sharia (or any other set of rules they like). A
magistrate then rules on this and makes the resolution legally binding
(you essentially sign a contract that you will abide by the ruling).
In addition, the judgments naturally fall under the jurisdiction of
the law. This is NOT the same as bringing Sharia law into this country
and actually VERY FAR away from that. You can never be put on trial
under Sharia law unless you agree to in advance, and even then only to
the extent permissible by the law. Bloody hell, if they want to have
Sharia judgments how is this hurting you?

lowrey: "No I do not want the BNP and their filth, and neither

do most lovers of England, but when push comes to shove
and they are the only people prepared to ignore the
stupidity of political correctness and speak out and
stand up for the common, indigenous population of the
country; then just as soon as they can we need them,
if only to bring the Tories to their senses, because
as sure as shit is shit, Labour will sell us out as
it has done over the last ten years. "

Indigenous population... Shall we all move out and invite the Romans
back? Or should we let the indigenous Celts take over the country?
Hell, maybe we should see who lived here 10 000 years ago. This has
nothing to do with political correctness, BNP policies are simply
stupidity and hatred taken to its extreme.

lowrey: "What crap you do talk."British Ideals and way of life'?

What ideals, that this labour government has not trashed?
What way of life that this labour government has not
wrecked, bringing its people to its knees in financial
and social ruination. Wake up! "

Being against BNP is not the same as being in favour of Labour. I
don't like Labour and I don't like Tories. And if you want to know, by
British ideals I mean the commitment to fairness, meritocracy and
liberty. BNP stands for hatred, preferential access for "indigenous"
population (who the hell knows what that means) and the restriction of
liberty to anyone in their way. I hate to say this because I don't
like when other people compare stuff to Hitler, but BNP = Hitler.

[lawrey]

Trance,

I am well aware and I speak with a measured tongue
when I say the idea is loathesome, but this country
needs a shock of the most vicious force to lift
it from the torpor of mental lassitude of its political
rulers. We have no leaders, no "strong secular voice."
We have been crushed by european political correctness
that has overtaken successive governments.
We fear to tread on our own hard fought-for soil.
Even the BNP have mellowed their stance of late.

I really feel and fear anarchy in the not too distant
future. We cannot afford to tolerate more Islamic
incursions. We must halt it and halt it now.
I know what I am suggesting and I hope that someone
somewhere will strive to prevent it.
We are in the throws of a desperate situation.

On Mar 2, 4:20 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> "Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous
>
> "Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to

[Sebastian]

lowrey: "The very last polling figures show that the majority of
England is anti-european. "

Do you want UK to pull out of the EU? Because this is what the BNP
would do. You accuse Labour of bringing us to the brink of financial
ruination. What effect do you think this policy will have? The City of
London will be moving itself to City of Frankfurt faster than you can
blink your eyes.

lowrey: "I did not think to hear an Englishman tell me to go

and live in North Korea. THIS is MY country and has
been throughout the generations of MY family, throughout
the ages. I am well aware of the conditions in North Korea.
But why should I go there just because I bring the folly
of government to account for its short sighted immigration
policies;let those that brought this upon us, go there and
those that have come to ruin this once wonderful country.
I'll stay here and fight with my last breath to honour
the country of my forebears and my children. "

This is no more your country than it is the country of every other
person who identifies themselves as British. And yes, as much as you
may dislike it, this may include some people who/whose families may
have moved here in recent history. I mean doesn't this hatred of
Muslims kind of remind you of the hatred of Jews and the holocaust?
(Oh, right, that didn't happen, right? Because that's what Griffin
said).

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

We must beg to differ, I could not disagree more
with your pussy-footing approach.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Who-ever
said that; got it right for this occassion.

[Sebastian]

Whatever man. I am glad you are nowhere near the corridors of power
otherwise, with your "remove anything we don't like" approach, we
might well have WW3 and a new holocaust coming up very soon.

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

"This is a democracy." YOUR words, The very last polling
figures show the English people are against any further
integration with Europe and most WOULD pull out.

I wondered when someone would pull out the poor Jewish
situation and the holocaust. I was in Belson not long
after the war, I saw the result of the atrocities first-
hand. Dont insult me with your hatred banner it doesn't
fly here nor does it work in your favour and I am
appalled that you could stoop so low as to
consider involving the Jews just for effect it tars you
not I.

OK I'll lay it on the line for you. If it means removing
every muslim, every mosque from the face of this country,
that still does not have to invole even a modicum of hate,
I have NO hate for anyone or any group of people. I never
have. I do have a fear that Islam is hell bent on serving
its own religio-political agenda and usurping the religions
and political parties of this country for its sole rule.

They have admitted as much. I love my coutry. Muslims love
Islam and are bent on world domination and they are fast
getting there. My job is to tell it as it is, because that
is all I can do. I do not wish to shoot or blow up anyone.
They do and do they have already done it here.
Where were you? didn't you hear about Nine eleven, have you
not heard of all the other and increasing islamic terrorist
atrocities? I care not for Griffin and the BNP, But they
now speak for an ever increasing number of the English
indigenous population.

Let me enlighten you. I am English. A muslim is first an
islamist and owes his or her allegiance not to England, but
Islam and the Qu'ran by and at pain of death.

This is the real danger you choose to ignore and do not
wish to understand. Islam will rule England over every
ENGLISHMAN'S dead body. and I hate violence, I consider
my self in every respect a gentle man.

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

You are so wrong! Defending ones country in the face
of evil-doers and supporting the right to a democratic
nation of peoples is not hatred, it is the duty of every
peace loving Englishman and I submit that every peace
loving Englishman in this county of England. will say
the same. So dont twist and turn love into hate.

[lawrey]

Sebastion,

These are your words, I hope you are proud of them.

" This is no more your country than it is the country of every other
person who identifies themselves as British. And yes, as much as
you
may dislike it, this may include some people who/whose families may
have moved here in recent history. I mean doesn't this hatred of
Muslims kind of remind you of the hatred of Jews and the holocaust?
(Oh, right, that didn't happen, right? Because that's what Griffin
said)."

So every Muslim or any other person can come here and call themselves
British identifying themselves with Britain and it makes them British.
Where are you in that thing you call a head. I have no qualms about
sensible and reasonable immigration, but I am entitled to be
selective,
as are many countries in the world, about who I choose to let into my
country and breed here. You choose to exacerbate by exageration.
Muslims by conviction are dangerous people and have abused the
hospitality of my country not least by bombing parts of it to
obliteration and killing my fellow countrymen. Further as I have afore
mentioned they have avowed to take over the religious and political
institutions of my country, they have avowed to bring all non-
beleivers
into the Muslim faith at any cost. they have avowed to destroy
democracy
here.

And you are just going to sit back and let them do whatever they
choose
to do are you, all because they have identified with Britain.?

No Sebastion: THIS IS NOT THEIR COUNTRY AND NEVER WILL BE. IT IS THE
COUNTRY THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE IN, TO DESTROY ITS DEMOCRACY AND CHANGE
ITS DEMOCRATIC LAWS TO THEIRS AND FORCE ME TO COMPLY.

I am an Englishman proud of it and this is my country not any
ousider's
just because they choose to live here, and enjoy the fruits that it
offers; in place of their tyranical previous existances.

On Mar 2, 5:31 pm, Sebastian <mezna...@gmail.com> wrote:

[chazwin]

On Mar 2, 8:56 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> and you will be prepared to take that back when Tower Hamlets elects
> this arsehole as a mayor then?

If the majority of Tower Hamlets voters elect a Moslim Mayor that is
called democracy- I do not expect them to mount a Jihad against the
British hegemony.
Your remarks are stupid.

>
> On 1 Mar, 22:40, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What a complete load of scare-mongering bollocks!
>

> > > What price freedom now? Be warned! The worst is yet to come.- Hide quoted text -

[chazwin]

Why should it matter a damn fuck. It is hardly on a parallel with
Adolf Hitler

On Mar 2, 9:08 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> chazwin,
>
> And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
> Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
> yourself. Open your eyes.
>

[chazwin]

On Mar 2, 9:28 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2 Mar, 09:08, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > chazwin,
>
> > And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
> > Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
> > yourself. Open your eyes.
>

> can we say "appeasement"
>
> While I was working as a drug councillor (I know, go figure!) in Tower
> Hamlets, I was working with a young asian lad who had a couple of
> Admin qualifications but no experience or references. I'd noticed that
> the East London mosque was looking for volunteers and suggested that
> it would be good experience.
>
> The young man, a devout muslim himself replied that he wouldnt want to
> work at the mosque because "they are all nutcases" (his exact words).
> I asked what he meant but he shook his head and became tight lipped, I
> didnt persue it as it was not relevent at the time.
>
> For a devout muslim to consider the East london mosque to be run by
> "nutcases" is pretty telling.

It says fuck all actually

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[chazwin]

You are being ridiculous

[chazwin]

Such is the rich tapestry of human folly and democracy.
I really don't think much of itr make a difference.
Its all about getting votes and power.
Anti-Islamicism is just a side-show to distract us from the shocking
lack of vision and direction of our political parties
in this LCD society we now live in.

On Mar 2, 1:07 pm, TLC <tlc.tere...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> And within the UK political process the catholics and Protestants have
> a lot more power and they wield it!
>
> How many MP's go to meetings with Imams to decide what political line
> they'll take?
>
> How many MP's go to meetings with christian cardinals and clergy to
> decide what political line they'll take?   A lot!
>

> > skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

[Sebastian]

lowrey: ""This is a democracy." YOUR words, The very last polling

figures show the English people are against any further
integration with Europe and most WOULD pull out. "

Yes, this is democracy. And notice that I am NOT suggesting that the
people who think Britain should pull out of the EU should be thrown
out of the country! And actually, majority is NOT in favour of the
pull out (only 24% of the people are in favour of the pull out).

lowrey: "I wondered when someone would pull out the poor Jewish

situation and the holocaust. I was in Belson not long
after the war, I saw the result of the atrocities first-
hand. Dont insult me with your hatred banner it doesn't
fly here nor does it work in your favour and I am
appalled that you could stoop so low as to
consider involving the Jews just for effect it tars you
not I. "

OK, cool, but then why the hell are you supporting BNP? They are
wanting to do exactly the same thing, just not to Jews.

lowrey: "OK I'll lay it on the line for you. If it means removing

every muslim, every mosque from the face of this country,
that still does not have to invole even a modicum of hate,
I have NO hate for anyone or any group of people. I never
have. I do have a fear that Islam is hell bent on serving
its own religio-political agenda and usurping the religions
and political parties of this country for its sole rule. "

How can you possibly say that? Britain is a country where people can
freely exercise their religion and beliefs, no matter what they may
be.

lowrey: "They have admitted as much. I love my coutry. Muslims love

Islam and are bent on world domination and they are fast
getting there. My job is to tell it as it is, because that
is all I can do. I do not wish to shoot or blow up anyone.
They do and do they have already done it here.
Where were you? didn't you hear about Nine eleven, have you
not heard of all the other and increasing islamic terrorist
atrocities? I care not for Griffin and the BNP, But they
now speak for an ever increasing number of the English
indigenous population. "

I know quite a lot of muslim people. And I can tell you that none of
the ones that I know thinks they should convince everyone to be a
muslim. They are just like everyone else, except they are muslims.
They are not coming to your house with a gun telling you to become a
muslim. So why the hell do you want to go with a gun to their house
and tell them to leave!?

lowrey: "Let me enlighten you. I am English. A muslim is first an

islamist and owes his or her allegiance not to England, but
Islam and the Qu'ran by and at pain of death. "

At pain of death? Delivered by who? Non-existent god?

lowrey: "This is the real danger you choose to ignore and do not

wish to understand. Islam will rule England over every
ENGLISHMAN'S dead body. and I hate violence, I consider
my self in every respect a gentle man. "

The real danger is people like you! The people who self righteously
proclaim themselves to be the owners of this country and think that
anyone who thinks differently or has a different skin colour should be
thrown out of this country! You are a bigot, and a disgrace to this
country.

[Sebastian]

Don't you understand? Your views are bent on DESTROYING the country
not on defending it. Every peace loving Englishman would let the
muslims worship whatever god they may want to worship and get on with
his life. A peace loving Englishman's solution would not be to throw
them all out. How can you even use the word peace for what is
essentially a declaration of war on these people???

[Sebastian]

Deaths in Britain due to muslim terrorism: 52
Deaths in Iraq due to NATO invasion: 100 000

Ponder this for a moment.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Max]

Sebastion,

I do understand where you're coming from and I also appreciate yours
(and others) noble motives in challenging Lawrey's stand, by what you
see as defending the principles of democracy. But just for a moment,
appreciate that the core tenet of any functioning democracy is
transparency, honesty and all within a secularist state.

This we know is not happening in the UK (& elsewhere at the minute)

What we (well the Brits in this case) are graduating towards is the
bastardisation of the principles of democracy in that, religious
doctrinaires (in this case Islamic clerics) are using their influence
to gain political power, with a clear agenda of non secularism and in
fact, would try at every opportunity to dismantle a western democracy
such can be found in the UK.

Religion (be it Islam or Christianity) is by structure, hierarchical
and is by demonstrated fact, the clerical version of totalitarianism.
There is no democracy in a theoligical state.

These Islamists (as did christianity) use the 'achilles heel' of
democracy, to bring in their 'religious trojan horses'.

To exclude or to restrict the influence of non democratic
insititutions such as this, is in fact, protecting the ideals of
democracy, not the reverse.

That's why, when Lawrey, in whom I have the highest personal regard,
regretfully sees only hope in the BNP at the moment.

This is no slight on Lawrey, however that's exactly how Nazism gained
power through the inadequacies of the democracy of the day. Democracy
today, must be able to stand up and fight for it's survival, because
if it doesn't, then we're all fucked.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

Yup. Exactly.

[gousaphe]

I agree with you Lawrey, Islam is a serious threat the politics of
democracy no doubt but you fight it all wrong. Some have likened Islam
to a snake, you don't fight a snake head on. If you do that you will
be bitten.
The Labour parties however are asses, you don't fight an ass by
approaching from the rear as the BNP with their common indigenous
popular support. If you do that you will get kicked in the head.
The Conservative party is the head-on opponent of the Labour party and
fundamentalist Christianity has commonality with Islam fundamentalism.
It is with these elements that you will win.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

I do not think Islam is a threat to politics or democracy. I think in a free and democratic society Islam cannot survive.

What needs to be done is to protect and encourage those who want to publicly criticize Islam. Criticism is essential for us as well as those Muslims who seek to liberate themselves from the religious mafia.

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[gousaphe]

I wouldn't know whether or not Islam can survive a free and democratic
society. I don't see why not. Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan are more
or less democratic.

On Mar 2, 8:23 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not think Islam is a threat to politics or democracy. I think in a free
> and democratic society Islam cannot survive.
>
> What needs to be done is to protect and encourage those who want to publicly
> criticize Islam. Criticism is essential for us as well as those Muslims who
> seek to liberate themselves from the religious mafia.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[lawrey]

chaz,

It matters to people who fear for the future of democracy
in a democratic country.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[lawrey]

chaz,

At least you are able now to say so, but for
how much longer?

[Dead Kennedy]

On 2 Mar, 23:17, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Sebastion,
>
> I do understand where you're coming from and I also appreciate yours
> (and others) noble motives in challenging Lawrey's stand, by what you
> see as defending the principles of democracy. But just for a moment,
> appreciate that the core tenet of any functioning democracy is
> transparency, honesty and all within a secularist state.

Exactly. The IFE has forced an election of a mayor, which they will
rig for their candidate to win, by stuffing petitions with fake
signitures (3 pages of names in the same handwriting!, going on half
of the signitures not appearing on the electoral register) and then
forcing the council to accept the petition as genuine by threatening
to move their support (read the forced support of their women and the
vunerable) to a different party. This is a subversion of democracy,
attacking its achilles heal as you say. Democracy counts on an
"informed" electorate, not one cowed by the orders of a tribal leader
from a foreign past.

It isnt just the muslims in tower hamlets, the Liberal party was
wracked by scandal about 3 years ago, when it was found that their
councillors were using postal voting to cast votes "on behalf" of the
women and voting age youngsters in their community. The party was
different but the country of origin of the councillors was the same.

>
> This we know is not happening in the UK (& elsewhere at the minute)
>
> What we (well the Brits in this case) are graduating towards is the
> bastardisation of the principles of democracy in that, religious
> doctrinaires (in this case Islamic clerics) are using their influence
> to gain political power, with a clear agenda of non secularism and in
> fact, would try at every opportunity to dismantle a western democracy
> such can be found in the UK.

With a stated aim to bring Sharia law to *their* communities.

I noticed Sebastian claim that those judged under sharia law in
britain "volunteered" to be so. Well yes, just as all those muslim
children "volunteer" to be married to 40 year old cousins.

>
> Religion (be it Islam or Christianity) is by structure, hierarchical
> and is by demonstrated fact, the clerical version of totalitarianism.
> There is no democracy in a theoligical state.

And with no tradition of democracy, there is no belief in its
principals and practices.

>
> These Islamists (as did christianity) use the 'achilles heel' of
> democracy, to bring in their 'religious trojan horses'.

And "islamisist" is a political position that can be distinct from
"muslim" (although not often). Sebastian and chazwin see any attack on
"islamasists" as attacks on those repressed underdog muslims. Its not
our fault that they are too stupid to see the difference.

>
> To exclude or to restrict the influence of non democratic
> insititutions such as this, is in fact, protecting the ideals of
> democracy, not the reverse.
>
> That's why, when Lawrey, in whom I have the highest personal regard,
> regretfully sees only hope in the BNP at the moment.

A very sad position indead, as i have the same respect for Lawrey.

>
> This is no slight on Lawrey, however that's exactly how Nazism gained
> power through the inadequacies of the democracy of the day. Democracy
> today, must be able to stand up and fight for it's survival, because
> if it doesn't, then we're all fucked.

And the first people to be so fucked if it becomes "racist" to
challenge the subversion of democracy as shown by the IFE, will be the
moderate muslims who just want to get on with living in the UK with
the advantages that brings (judical process/democracy), they did come
to the uk for a reason afterall.

If people like Lawrey, and many others I know, are going to be
routinely called racist for expressing concern by idiots who cant see
past their own self-hatred, the slur becomes powerless and then why
not just go the whole hog and vote for the definately racist BNP.

I for one, am most concerned that groups like IFE and the East london
Mosque will push the usually restrained british people to actual acts
of violence against muslims, and that those who fought (violently)
against facism in the 70's-80's will stand back and say "well, looking
at the statements made by members of your community, you deserve it".

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Dead Kennedy]

On 2 Mar, 20:55, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 9:28 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 Mar, 09:08, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > chazwin,
>
> > > And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
> > > Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
> > > yourself. Open your eyes.
>
> > can we say "appeasement"
>
> > While I was working as a drug councillor (I know, go figure!) in Tower
> > Hamlets, I was working with a young asian lad who had a couple of
> > Admin qualifications but no experience or references. I'd noticed that
> > the East London mosque was looking for volunteers and suggested that
> > it would be good experience.
>
> > The young man, a devout muslim himself replied that he wouldnt want to
> > work at the mosque because "they are all nutcases" (his exact words).
> > I asked what he meant but he shook his head and became tight lipped, I
> > didnt persue it as it was not relevent at the time.
>
> > For a devout muslim to consider the East london mosque to be run by
> > "nutcases" is pretty telling.
>
> It says fuck all actually

It says that muslims are apprehensive about the Mosque.

[lawrey]

Sebastian,

You say:

"How can you possibly say that? Britain is a country where
people can freely exercise their religion and beliefs, no
matter what they may be."

So that means we allow terrorist sympathisers and organisers
to come and preach in mosques to recruit more terrorists.
I don't think so, that is taking advantage of democratic
freedom.

Why are you deliberately stiring up trouble?
What is your agenda and why do you constantly speak of
violence?

YOU are the only person here mentioning guns!
Who is the only person here to mention colour YOU!

I am speaking specifically against terrorism and what I
perceive as a threat to my country and that specifically,
includes NO colour bar. It specifically speaks of the
sect known as Muslim and Islamic who are bound by the
laws of Islam as they are in Iran.

I have not nor do I promote any violence what so-ever.
I hate violence!

You on the other hand do. I want laws to remove this
foul religion and prevent it from spreading its ideals
and hatred into young men for the purposes of terror.
America has recently suffered a case where three young
supposedly well adjusted lads, supposedly all American
were found seeking training to terrorise.

Sebastian:

"At pain of death? Delivered by who? Non-existent god?"

No they kill those not prepared to comply to the laws
of Islam and muslims do the killing and think it an
honour, in the name of Allah, a non-existent god.
All their terrorism is done in the name of a
non-existent god.

You are the disgrace and your ignorance is what will
do harm to my country. Who said anything about people
with a different skin colour? go and see a shrink
you seem to have a phobia about colour are you a
racist? One my daughter's is married to a black man
from Jamaica and a nicer person I would not wish to
meet.

Who is the bigot here?

> > > > > > > > favoured I.F.E organisations by Tower Hamlets council- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[philosophy]

On Mar 2, 8:22 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>      ++++====SOONER RATHER THAN LATER====++++

Hii Lawrey
Some of the readers here may find this book of interest:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/1591020115/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267609098&sr=1-1

>
> And so it has come to pass sooner than expected and does not
> bode well for the future democratic rule of the once Great Britain.
>
> Some time ago when I and others warned  against of the dangers,
> at the site of the first mosque to appear on British soil and its
> portents for the demise of democracy as we in the west know it;
> I was accused of alarmist talk, Islamophobia and scare mongering.
>
> Now today we hear from Dispatches that not only has the borough
> of Tower Hamlets in London been completely taken over by the
> I.F.E. ( Islamic Forum of Europe), which is a fundamentalist group,
> with known affiliations with terrorists and terrorist organisations
> world-wide, but no less than thirteen other towns in England are
> well on the way to be taken over by I.F.E. and Thirteen million
> pounds of British tax payers money has been handed out to the

[lawrey]

Sebastian,

There you go again, what an ignorant oaf you make of yourself,
I say again Moslims owe allegance first to Islam and their
interpretation of the qur'an.

Muslims have proved themselve to be untrustworthy, dangerous
and unpredictable. We know not all, but even the most innocent
obey Islam and the qur'an and BOMB innocent people.
You cant know who they are and in a democratic country where
life is deemed sacrosanct, the protection of life is paramount
to any other consideration. How do you remove the threat that
is everyday more likely. One way and one way only is to ban
the religion responsible? What! and make matters worse by
consentrating it under cover? That will not work. What will
work is to remove all muslims. NOT kill them or torture them
or bring any harm to them, but simply ship them out.
PEACEFULLY. Why do you love war so much?

> > > > > > > > > "Faith- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[lawrey]

Sebastian,

What an utter pratt you show yourself to be>

One death just ONE death is one too many.

YOU ponder that.

> > > > > > > > > > I am happy to be so- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[lawrey]

Max,

A responsible and accurate assessment.

Any right-minded individual would abhor any idea and
or ideal contigent to BNP.

I simply wish to shock our goverment, of whatever
persuasion to do something positive to aleviate the
threat of terror and when we see programs of investigation
that uncover the real purpose of Islam openly declared
against us,it is well overtime to react and act positively
to stop it. My words and my language may seem far right
but in truth I am the mildest of fellows, I just see
a real and imminent danger. I think I need to be as
forceful as words will respectfully allow. I do expect
to upset a lot of people, but I'll be damned if I will
let the lack of saying anything accrue to my name for
the sake of saying something to move someone, while
the next bomber is waiting to destroy us.

I wont everyone to sit up and take notice, if that
means shock tactics then that is, at my age and status
all I have to offer, but I consider my duty to my
sleeping politicians.

> > > > > > > > You want BNP to win!? All I can say is just WOW. Do you realize they- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[lawrey]

gousaphe,

Thank you.

Is it better for one to be wrong and risk displeasure,
or right and see destruction unleashed on the many.

I do not know the best way to tackle the danger I see,
but there is no time to ponder it.

Someone somewhere must move to action, wait and see
is too awful to contemplate.

[lawrey]

Khurram,

Appreciate your input.

But you seem to be out of touch with the IFEs
stated aims, goals and objectives.

The reason they are making inroads into politics
and high office is to destroy democracy.

Criticsm certainly has not worked so far and
I can assure you just criticising willy-nilly
isn't going to persuade any IFE campaigner to
go away.

On Mar 3, 3:23 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not think Islam is a threat to politics or democracy. I think in a free

> and democratic society Islam cannot survive....
>
> read more »

> > > > > > > > > What price freedom now? Be warned!- Hide quoted text -

[Max]

No, no mate......I understand entirely. Your frustration is self
evident and your honesty is to be applauded. If anything the impotence
of your elected representatives in combination with the social flavour
of political correctness over there, clearly concocts the foul stench
of democratic corruption.

And the British public, although aware of some of the situation, one
can't help but think that you are just a bunch of frogs sitting in a
pot over the fire, that's getting warmer & warmer, but won't know your
done for until it's too late.

With the evidence of branch stacking and other electoral frauds that
DK was discussing, one can only surmise what could happen in years to
come.

Philosophically, 40 years ago it was a cold war between east & west,
capitalism vs communism.

In 10 years, who knows what.

Shit we need some kids on the street arcing up.

Whatever happened to social conscience and rebellion.

> ...
>
> read more »

[lawrey]

philosophy,

Thank you for that, in fact I was going to get it some time
ago, because it is advertised on Amazon on my site, in Other
References. I shall make a point of getting it.

On Mar 3, 9:46 am, philosophy <catswhisker...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 8:22 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:>      ++++====SOONER RATHER THAN LATER====++++
>
> Hii Lawrey

> Some of  the readers here may find this book of interest:http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/1591020115/ref=sr_1_1?ie...

> > What price freedom now? Be warned! The worst is yet to come.- Hide quoted text -

[lawrey]

Max,

Thanks.

Frustration I know leads to bad descisions sometimes.
If I am guilty, I am solely responsible and take what-
ever life brings. If by word alone I had the power to
effect a change then I would have the mightiest sword
and the keenest blade. Unfortunately my voice and my
words fall on fallow land and will bear no fruit in
this urgent season. Nor do I have words of inspiration,
but am seen only to complain. The end result is waste.
Thus my frustration.

> > > > > > > > wrecked, bringing its people to its knees in financial- Hide quoted text -

[TLC]

It's ashame this debate seems to be moving from faithism into
racism.

Let's be clear, the UK has never been a "democracy." Unless one
calls royalty democratic? Or, legislation passing through an un-
elected chamber where the bosses of the state church have un-elected
seats from which they can delay or alter legislation which they don't
like?

I dislike and find sickening the idea of any mosque, or CHURCH being
financed by the tax payer. But, let's be truthful, Islam doesn't
recieve even a fraction of the money Christianity gets/steals from the
state!

Yes, there is a religio-political agenda, mostly Christian, muslims
are just the tail end of this rabid dog. And I think as atheists it's
up to us to tackle all of the problem, not just the Islamic tail end!

Lawrey, and where do you propose to deport the hundreds of thousands
of muslims who are as ENGLISH as you are to?

By the way. The BNP calls its self a Christian party, it even has
”Reverends” on its party list and ran “Christian Council of Britain”
which is now defunct and ran a Vicar in the Euro elections. Does no
one recall the drawing of Jesus on a BNP poster asking, "What Would
Jesus Do? Vote BNP." But, some of the BNP also support Odinism!

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.k...@live.co.uk> wrote:

<snipped>

I agree with everything I snipped but the following absolutely nails the issue.

I love and respect Lawrey too and he's not a racist. He has some very legitimate concerns he's raising.

I just don't agree with the BNP being a solution.

Right wing extremists are unstable and dangerous and are just as capable of destroying the democratic process as Islam is.

And the first people to be so fucked if it becomes "racist" to
challenge the subversion of democracy as shown by the IFE, will be the
moderate muslims who just want to get on with living in the UK with
the advantages that brings (judical process/democracy), they did come
to the uk for a reason afterall.

According to someone on another discussion group this is exactly what is happening in Holland and *everyone* is paying the price not just the idiot Islamists who created the situation by conflating legitimate criticism with so-called "islamophobia" which is something they manufactured in the first place.
 

If people like Lawrey, and many others I know, are going to be
routinely called racist for expressing concern by idiots who cant see
past their own self-hatred, the slur becomes powerless and then why
not just go the whole hog and vote for the definately racist BNP.

It's too bad that there are idiots who can't tell the difference between legitimate criticism of religion and hate.
 

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[TLC]

Seems a bit crazy to me how anyone can worry or think that the UK
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%) will take over the country! It
seems to be based on the stupid idea that there are more than 57
million brain dead people living in the UK!

On 3 Mar, 12:39, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sebastian]

I am totally in favour of secularism and the principles that you
mention. And there is a simple solution to this, which the UK sadly
has decided not to adopt. The solution is a written constitution
guaranteeing the basic tenets of democracy, secular state etc. When
and if this will happen, who knows. But I can NEVER support the
deportation and inhumane or unfair treatment of Muslims as a solution
to this problem. NEVER.

On Mar 2, 11:17 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:06 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Seems a bit crazy to me how anyone can worry or think that the UK
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%) will take over the country!   It
seems to be based on the stupid idea that there are more than 57
million brain dead people living in the UK!

That's not the point IMO.

The point is simply this and we need to drill this home wherever we can.

1. Religion has a special privilege card
2. It is using this card to encroach on, interfere with and abuse the democratic politic process.
3. ALL religions are doing this, Islam is only the latest and they've learned from the Christians and the Jews.
4. This poses a threat to secularism.
5. Secularism must be protected.

The religious need to understand that theocracies are not going to benefit them either because ONLY ONE theocracy will be in power and EVERYONE else will be repressed including each and every other religion.

A secular state is in the best interests of EVERYONE including the religious.

Protecting Secularism also protects Universal Rights, etc.

It's not a question of which religion is more evil. They are ALL evil when they attempt to encroach on the secular state, and abuse the democratic process to further their religious agendas.

[Sebastian]

Tories are not any better than Labour. Cameron will say absolutely
anything to get in power. If you want real change you should vote for
LibDems.

On Mar 3, 2:35 am, gousaphe <peterd...@gmail.com> wrote:

[chazwin]

But even on its own terms, the 'state of emergence' that has been set
in place by Bush and Blair concerning the terrorist threat is
irrational.
This idiotic posting is an expression of that that irrationality.

Deaths by MacDonalds far outstrips death from terrorism, and yet we
have this stupid valorisation of the terrorist, in the media, which
further encourages young Muslim males to go 'radicalised', when what
we should be doing is relegating terrorist activities to page 7 of the
daily papers, and instead warn people of common and real threats to
our well being such as heart disease which is far more easily
preventable And would be cheaper than all the mind benignly stupid
security that we have instigated to the joy and relish of those few
terrorists that seem to have won by making themselves so seemingly
important to our lives.

Terrorists 1, Western Civilisation 0.

On Mar 2, 9:14 pm, Sebastian <mezna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Deaths in Britain due to muslim terrorism: 52
> Deaths in Iraq due to NATO invasion: 100 000
>
> Ponder this for a moment.
>

> On Mar 2, 6:54 pm, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Sebastion,
>

> > These are your words, I hope you are proud of them.
>

> > " This is no more your country than it is the country of every other
> >   person who identifies themselves as British. And yes, as much as
> > you
> >   may dislike it, this may include some people who/whose families may
> >   have moved here in recent history. I mean doesn't this hatred of
> >   Muslims kind of remind you of the hatred of Jews and the holocaust?
> >   (Oh, right, that didn't happen, right? Because that's what Griffin
> >   said)."
>

> > > On Mar 2, 5:26 pm, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Sebastion,
>

> > > > > On Mar 2, 4:49 pm, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Sebastion,
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Sebastian]

DK: "And "islamisist" is a political position that can be distinct

from
"muslim" (although not often). Sebastian and chazwin see any attack on
"islamasists" as attacks on those repressed underdog muslims. Its not
our fault that they are too stupid to see the difference."

But this is how law works. They have got to agree in ADVANCE to have
the judgment made under a certain set of rules. And even then the
judgment cannot violate the civil or criminal law. (So for instance
they cannot have you stoned for adultery)

> ...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

Canada has a Constitition and nowhere in it does it establish that we are a Secular state despite assumptions that we are.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

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[chazwin]

And what exactly is the 'it' in your statement?
You are simply valorising a system of prejudice which owes its
existence to a false level of threat.

[Sebastian]

DK: "If people like Lawrey, and many others I know, are going to be

routinely called racist for expressing concern by idiots who cant see
past their own self-hatred, the slur becomes powerless and then why
not just go the whole hog and vote for the definately racist BNP. "

I think you got the causation wrong. He was called racist BECAUSE he
supports BNP. It is not that he decided to support BNP because he was
called racist. How can you possibly defend the scum like this??

On Mar 3, 9:29 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[chazwin]

On Mar 3, 9:09 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> chaz,
>
> At least you are able now to say so, but for
> how much longer?

For as long as there are more non-muslims than muslims.
If this point were ever to be exceeded then they would have earned the
democratic right to install sharia law: this is not going to happen.

[chazwin]

On Mar 3, 9:32 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> On 2 Mar, 20:55, chazwin <chazwy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 2, 9:28 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On 2 Mar, 09:08, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > chazwin,
>
> > > > And its people like you who will be the first to scream:
> > > > Why didn't someone do something and blame everyone but
> > > > yourself. Open your eyes.
>
> > > can we say "appeasement"
>
> > > While I was working as a drug councillor (I know, go figure!) in Tower
> > > Hamlets, I was working with a young asian lad who had a couple of
> > > Admin qualifications but no experience or references. I'd noticed that
> > > the East London mosque was looking for volunteers and suggested that
> > > it would be good experience.
>
> > > The young man, a devout muslim himself replied that he wouldnt want to
> > > work at the mosque because "they are all nutcases" (his exact words).
> > > I asked what he meant but he shook his head and became tight lipped, I
> > > didnt persue it as it was not relevent at the time.
>
> > > For a devout muslim to consider the East london mosque to be run by
> > > "nutcases" is pretty telling.
>
> > It says fuck all actually
>
> It says that muslims are apprehensive about the Mosque.

So much less have we to worry about then.

[chazwin]

On Mar 3, 9:41 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Sebastian,
>
> You say:
>
>   "How can you possibly say that? Britain is a country where
>    people can freely exercise their religion and beliefs, no
>    matter what they may be."
>
> So that means we allow terrorist sympathisers and organisers
> to come and preach in mosques to recruit more terrorists.
> I don't think so, that is taking advantage of democratic
> freedom.

This is simply not happening.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:25 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

DK: "And "islamisist" is a political position that can be distinct

from
"muslim" (although not often). Sebastian and chazwin see any attack on
"islamasists" as attacks on those repressed underdog muslims. Its not
our fault that they are too stupid to see the difference."

But this is how law works. They have got to agree in ADVANCE to have
the judgment made under a certain set of rules. And even then the
judgment cannot violate the civil or criminal law. (So for instance
they cannot have you stoned for adultery)

It still creates a situation where there are two sets of laws which by definition is not only discriminatory but creates two set of rights as well.

It is very destructive to women for example, who are divorcing and can be intimidated by family members to accept a Sharia divorce which is discriminatory towards women.

It's also the thin edge of wedge where accepting Sharia Law in it's entirety could potentially occur because it's based on accepting the concept that religion has a special privilege card.

Due process requires that all citizens are equal under the law, treated equally under the law, and there is ONE law.

This is what Lawrey and others are referring to when they are using the term "protecting our way of life."

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

DK: "If people like Lawrey, and many others I know, are going to be

routinely called racist for expressing concern by idiots who cant see
past their own self-hatred, the slur becomes powerless and then why
not just go the whole hog and vote for the definately racist BNP. "

I think you got the causation wrong. He was called racist BECAUSE he
supports BNP. It is not that he decided to support BNP because he was
called racist. How can you possibly defend the scum like this??

Because he's not "supporting" the BNP.

He's saying that they could provide a solution to the problem.

While I don't agree with that position also I think you are missing his valid point and his concerns.

--

[Sebastian]

lawrey: "So that means we allow terrorist sympathisers and organisers

to come and preach in mosques to recruit more terrorists.
I don't think so, that is taking advantage of democratic
freedom. "

Freedom of speech. I completely support people to come and preach
whatever they like. As long as they don't actually go and commit an
act of terrorism they should not be arrested. Besides, it makes it
easier to know who to keep an eye on if you see someone preaching
terrorism. If it is illegal they will do it underground.

lawrey: "Why are you deliberately stiring up trouble?

What is your agenda and why do you constantly speak of
violence? "

My agenda? I only want people to appreciate the liberties we have got
and not to give them up so easily because they are slightly
threatened. I mean would you give up your basic liberties to prevent
traffic accidents? Yet, there were 3000 road casualties in the UK in
2007 alone! This compares with 52 Islamic terrorism deaths in the last
few decades. Terrorism is blown WAY out of proportion to scare people
and to give more powers to the government to tell you what to do.
Don't you think this is a way bigger problem to your way of life than
the Muslim population (which constitutes 2.8% of the UK population, by
the way).

lawrey: "I am speaking specifically against terrorism and what I

perceive as a threat to my country and that specifically,
includes NO colour bar. It specifically speaks of the
sect known as Muslim and Islamic who are bound by the
laws of Islam as they are in Iran. "

Oh please. This is another one of your scaremongering strategies. Get
this: muslims are NOT bent on destroying Britain. They came here not
to take our country down but to get a better life. You are defending
no other than a new wannabe Hitler.

lawrey: "I have not nor do I promote any violence what so-ever.
I hate violence! "

Then DO NOT support BNP! They want to violently DEPORT Muslims from
this country. If this is not promoting violence, then how far do we
have to go!? If they were really elected, how long until they'd start
killing?

lawrey: "You on the other hand do. I want laws to remove this

foul religion and prevent it from spreading its ideals
and hatred into young men for the purposes of terror.
America has recently suffered a case where three young
supposedly well adjusted lads, supposedly all American
were found seeking training to terrorise. "

Overgeneralization and hatemongering. I mean for fucks sake, most
Muslims are NOT terrorists. There are 1.6 million Muslims in our
country! About 10 were involved in the terrorist attacks. This is
0.0006% of the entire Muslim population! And you come here and label
them as violent religion... Sorry, but you've been brainwashed.

lawrey: "No they kill those not prepared to comply to the laws

of Islam and muslims do the killing and think it an
honour, in the name of Allah, a non-existent god.
All their terrorism is done in the name of a
non-existent god. "

Yeah, and christians were fighting a civil war in Northern Ireland not
long ago. Shall we deport christians too? Once you deport every group
of people members of which have at some point done something bad, you
will have a very empty country indeed. Not even sure you'll still be
here.

lawrey: "You are the disgrace and your ignorance is what will

do harm to my country. Who said anything about people
with a different skin colour? go and see a shrink
you seem to have a phobia about colour are you a
racist? One my daughter's is married to a black man
from Jamaica and a nicer person I would not wish to
meet. "

You do realize though, that he would be deported by BNP, right? Is
your daughter happy about your support for BNP? I would not tell her
if I were you.

lawrey: "Who is the bigot here? "

You are.

On Mar 3, 9:41 am, lawrey <commentslaw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Sebastian,
>
> You say:
>
>   "How can you possibly say that? Britain is a country where
>    people can freely exercise their religion and beliefs, no
>    matter what they may be."
>
> So that means we allow terrorist sympathisers and organisers
> to come and preach in mosques to recruit more terrorists.
> I don't think so, that is taking advantage of democratic
> freedom.
>

[Sebastian]

Muslims bomb innocent people. Did you miss the statistics that I
posted here before? There were 100 000 CIVILIAN casualties in Iraq. I
don't know if this rings a bell to you. How many innocents did we
bomb? Maybe we should deport ourselves out of the country, too. We are
dangerous.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Sebastian]

Hey, I agree. I only want to put your views into perspective. What
this country needs is less bigotry, nationalism and ethnic chest
banging from people like you, and we'd all be happier for it.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

The first line of the Canadian Constitution.

"PART I

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"

[Sebastian]

Think of it as a contract. These people sign a contract that they
agree to abide all lawful tenets of Sharia and that punishment for
breaking the contract is the same as under Sharia, when lawful. Surely
we cannot prevent people from signing contracts like this?

On Mar 3, 1:30 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sebastian]

I know what his concerns are, I don't agree that BNP is a solution to
them. That's all I've got issues with.

On Mar 3, 1:40 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[lawrey]

TLC,

"From little acorns." Oak trees grow.

> > > > > > > > > > himself in favour of some Shari'a Law. There is no- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Think of it as a contract. These people sign a contract that they
agree to abide all lawful tenets of Sharia and that punishment for
breaking the contract is the same as under Sharia, when lawful. Surely
we cannot prevent people from signing contracts like this?

When it amounts to discriminatory legal practices and a two tiered legal system then yes we should.
 

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[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:51 AM, lawrey <comment...@btinternet.com> wrote:

TLC,

"From little acorns." Oak trees grow.

The tree has already grown Lawrey.

The acorns were the Christians and Jews.

The Islamists are just doing the same thing.

The real problem lies in the fact that our secular societies continue to give religion a special privilege card.

This is what has to stop and it has to stop for ALL religions.

That is what will prevent this type of abuse of process by religions to use the state to further their own agendas.

[Sebastian]

Their judgments cannot contradict the common law. And actually I think
if there is evidence that someone was coerced into this then it is
invalid (though I am not sure about this, would have to check). This
would certainly be true for a contract - a coerced contract is not
legally valid.

On Mar 3, 1:52 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Sebastian]

I agree with this. A secular society is something we should all be
striving for. That's why people should vote for LibDems. There is a
good chance there will be a hung parliament this year so LibDems might
actually end up in government...

On Mar 3, 1:57 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Their judgments cannot contradict the common law.

Are divorces conducted using Sharia Law?

If so, then they are contradicting Divorce Law which is common law.
 

And actually I think
if there is evidence that someone was coerced into this then it is
invalid (though I am not sure about this, would have to check).

And how would you prove that?

I know a lot of girls in my community who deliriously jump up and down and claim they're all for arranged marriage and agree to it and with it.

When I talk to them privately it's a different story and they only tell me because they trust me not to betray their trust by telling anyone.
 

This
would certainly be true for a contract - a coerced contract is not
legally valid.

Your problem is that you're very naive.

[TLC]

Trance,

"1. Religion has a special privilege card
2. It is using this card to encroach on, interfere with and abuse the
democratic politic process.
3. ALL religions are doing this, Islam is only the latest and they've
learned from the Christians and the Jews.
4. This poses a threat to secularism.
5. Secularism must be protected.

AGREED!

Although, I think 'secularism' in the above, should be replaced with
LIBERTY.

On 3 Mar, 13:20, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sebastian]

It's just that this is not a legal problem, it's a social problem. If
they are actually being intimidated, there is little law can do about
that. If you want to solve the intimidation problem you need a charity
or something.

As for divorce, the Sharia can only settle disputes. You still need to
get a civil divorce, but a Sharia court can help you settle disputes.
Similar courts exist for Jews and other religious folks.

On Mar 3, 2:03 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with this. A secular society is something we should all be
striving for. That's why people should vote for LibDems. There is a
good chance there will be a hung parliament this year so LibDems might
actually end up in government...

In Canada, the Liberals are closely allied with the Israel Lobby another religious group.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that the Israel Lobby controls the Liberal Party in many ways.

I refuse to vote Liberal here until that changes.

I'm sick of special interest religious groups abusing the democratic political process to further their religous agendas.

This is the real problem which Lawrey is trying to address in terms of the Muslims in Britain.

I will continue to vote Conservative until the Liberals stop this bullshit.
 
While Harper has also taken an extreme (and IMO stupid) position on Israel, at least he isn't their little flunky. He is basically just supporting whatever position the US takes on the ME.

And note that I'm neither pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. I'm anti-Terrorism and will object no matter where it comes from. In the ME they ALL have blood on their hands where that's concerned.


.--

[TLC]

Trance,

And the justifcation for such idiotic courts? We allowed the Jews
to have them! Why not allow Satanist to have them also? lol

On 3 Mar, 13:30, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:06 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

"1. Religion has a special privilege card
2. It is using this card to encroach on, interfere with and abuse the
democratic politic process.
3. ALL religions are doing this, Islam is only the latest and they've
learned from the Christians and the Jews.
4. This poses a threat to secularism.
5. Secularism must be protected.

AGREED!

Although, I think 'secularism' in the above, should be replaced with
LIBERTY.

Secularism AND Liberty must be protected ;-)

I agree they go together but they are two different concepts.

--

[lawrey]

TLC,

I tend to agree with you, I know not how racism got
stirred into the pot but I suspect it was from the
total exagerations and quite deliberate exacerbations
of Sebastian. No-one apart from him has spoken of
colour or violence, he on the other-hand has revelled
in it.

I am no politician, and politicians have got us into
this mess, it is for them then to extricate us from it
and pronto.

I have never heard of hundreds and thousands of Englishmen
who follow the ideals of the IFE and are seeking to usurp
our way of life. I find it difficult to immagine one
Englishman of that persuasion.

I do know that the main London mosque accredited as a
beacon of hope and illumination for integration by this
government is a diabolical cover for terroist recruitment.

I do know that young muslims are constantly being sought
to bolster terrorism in this and in many other countries.

I do know that all religion is an abomination and the
sooner we can be rid of it the better.

I am not interested in the BNP or in Odinism also known
as Heathenism or Heathenry, Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr,
Vor Siðr, and Theodism) I have no affiliation with them
neither do I seek any. I ABHOR THEM.

I simply want someone to recognise and speak out with
concern for the potenial disaster we face from Islamic
terrorists. BNP are the only grouping here who actively
speak out against the influx of Muslims. Unfortunately
as has been well stated they come with an excess of
unwanted baggage.

So much for christianity of all shades, you call Islam
the tip of the tail.

I say it is the tip of the tail that carries the sting
that can kill and is certainly known to.

On Mar 3, 11:14 am, TLC <tlc.tere...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It's ashame this debate seems to be moving from faithism into
> racism.
>
> Let's be clear, the UK has never been a "democracy."   Unless one
> calls royalty democratic?  Or, legislation passing through an un-
> elected chamber where the bosses of the state church have un-elected
> seats from which they can delay or alter legislation which they don't
> like?
>
> I dislike and find sickening the idea of any mosque, or CHURCH being
> financed by the tax payer.  But, let's be truthful, Islam doesn't
> recieve even a fraction of the money Christianity gets/steals from the
> state!
>
> Yes, there is a religio-political agenda, mostly Christian, muslims
> are just the tail end of this rabid dog.  And I think as atheists it's
> up to us to tackle all of the problem, not just the Islamic tail end!
>
> Lawrey, and where do you propose to deport the hundreds of thousands
> of muslims who are as ENGLISH as you are to?
>
> By the way.   The BNP calls its self a Christian party, it even has
> ”Reverends” on its party list and ran  “Christian Council of Britain”
> which is now defunct and ran a Vicar in the Euro elections.   Does no
> one recall the drawing of Jesus on a BNP poster asking, "What Would
> Jesus Do?  Vote BNP."   But, some of the BNP also support Odinism!

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:12 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

And the justifcation for such idiotic courts?    We allowed the Jews
to have them!   Why not allow Satanist to have them also? lol

It's discriminatory not too isn't it.

And therein lies another problem...

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:12 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

And the justifcation for such idiotic courts?    We allowed the Jews
to have them!   Why not allow Satanist to have them also? lol

It's discriminatory not too isn't it.

And therein lies another problem...

Note that was the justification here in Ontario to allow more religious schools and have the Taxpayer pay for them!

We do it for the Catholics.

Well IMO we shouldn't be doing it for ANYONE!

That will end the discrimination.

[Sebastian]

TG: "In Canada, the Liberals are closely allied with the Israel Lobby
another
religious group.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that the Israel Lobby controls the
Liberal
Party in many ways.

I refuse to vote Liberal here until that changes. "

Well that's fucked up. The LibDems here are not very pro-Israeli.

TG: "I'm sick of special interest religious groups abusing the

democratic
political process to further their religous agendas.

This is the real problem which Lawrey is trying to address in terms of
the
Muslims in Britain. "

But how? By supporting the party that has pledged to deport every non-
indigenous person in the country? How the hell far should we go?

TG: "I will continue to vote Conservative until the Liberals stop this
bullshit.

While Harper has also taken an extreme (and IMO stupid) position on
Israel,
at least he isn't their little flunky. He is basically just supporting
whatever position the US takes on the ME.

And note that I'm neither pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. I'm anti-
Terrorism
and will object no matter where it comes from. In the ME they ALL have
blood
on their hands where that's concerned."

Well sounds like Tories are also Israel's dogs (actually more often
than not, centre-right is more pro-Israel than centre-left). I am not
too familiar with Canadian politics though so I can't comment on them
more than that.

As for Palestine, Israeli has way more blood on their hands than
Palestine. We put them there by force and they decided to violently
remove lots of people. Now Palestinians want a state of their own and
Israel will only agree if they are disarmed (basically yes, but only
if we can invade them anytime they disobey). I admit that Palestinians
are not violence free, but I find it hard not to feel sympathy for
them.

On Mar 3, 2:11 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sebastian]

These people can sign equivalent contracts anyway and have them
enforced by a civil court. So since there is so much demand from Jews
and Muslims in this regard they set up specialised courts that deal
with this in a streamlined manner.

[Sebastian]

lawrey: "I simply want someone to recognise and speak out with

concern for the potenial disaster we face from Islamic
terrorists. BNP are the only grouping here who actively
speak out against the influx of Muslims. Unfortunately
as has been well stated they come with an excess of
unwanted baggage. "

This is your problem lawrey. You want to stop the influx of people who
believe certain set of beliefs that you don't like. What next? The
christians set up an anti-atheist party that wants to deport all
atheists? How would you feel?

[lawrey]

TLC,

How ever many more times:

"It only takes one rotten apple." you know that as well as
anyone.

Have you seen the latest investigations into the activities
of the IFE. Do you know there are now at least thirteen
other constituencies around the country apart from
Tower Hamlets who have been infiltrated?
Dont you think that is serious enough to be very concerned?
I am very surprised at your seeming lack of appreciation
of the situation in our voting system and its potential
for abuse.

I yes to a degree I do think there are 57 million people
lulled into a state of torpor by a corrupt politcal system
who have lost any respect they may have had for anything
political and that is just what the IFE are relying on.

It is a crazy situation, you are right, you had better hope
that I am crazy too.

I generally agree with you on most things, in this instant
it is my sincere hope that I am wrong!

On Mar 3, 1:06 pm, TLC <tlc.tere...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Seems a bit crazy to me how anyone can worry or think that the UK
> Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%) will take over the country!   It
> seems to be based on the stupid idea that there are more than 57
> million brain dead people living in the UK!
>

[Trance Gemini]

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Sebastian <mezn...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snipped>
 

Well sounds like Tories are also Israel's dogs (actually more often
than not, centre-right is more pro-Israel than centre-left). I am not
too familiar with Canadian politics though so I can't comment on them
more than that.

No. They're the Americans "dogs" but since the Israel Lobby has an inordinate amount of influence in American politics, it's an expression of the same problem but indirectly instead of directly.
 

As for Palestine, Israeli has way more blood on their hands than
Palestine. We put them there by force and they decided to violently
remove lots of people. Now Palestinians want a state of their own and
Israel will only agree if they are disarmed (basically yes, but only
if we can invade them anytime they disobey). I admit that Palestinians
are not violence free, but I find it hard not to feel sympathy for
them.

That's debatable but it's really a different issue and besides the point I'm making.

I just brought it up to demonstrate that many countries are suffering from the same issues and that these issues are quite serious when political parties can be controlled by religious fanatics of any stripe.

Because of this we should be implementing Preventative measures.

My point is that Lawrey's concern is legitimate and in some countries this issue has become a very serious problem.

Given that Islam is following the same strategy how long do you think it will be before they take over one of your parties?

This is the threat to the secular state.

And it's one we better start taking seriously or we're all going to end up living in theocracies.

Which theocracy will simply depend on which religion "wins".

--

[Sebastian]

Maybe I am not giving the right impression. I agree that the secular
state has got to be protected. By this I mean, I don't mind if people
in power are religious (although would prefer if they were not) as
long as they do not give legal support to a particular religion.

As for how long until one of the major parties is Islamic. It is not
going to happen anytime soon. In Britain, 2.8% of the population is
muslim so even if all of these people voted for some as of yet
nonexistent party they would not get ANY seats in the parliament under
the British system. To be major, they'd have to have at LEAST 10-15%
of the vote and this vote would have to be concentrated in certain
constituencies.

So anyway, to make my point, the threat to secularism (both real and
perceived) can best be combated by a written constitution guaranteeing
liberty and secularism. Such a constitution is necessary for many
other reasons anyway, including the governmental exercise of royal
prerogatives.

On Mar 3, 2:31 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote: