[AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
Dossy Shiobara
Tonight, I pushed the static content from the aolserver.com homepage
into WordPress 2.5. The current theme/design is minimal, but I'm hoping
that someone will volunteer to help provide a web design that's modern
and attractive.
If you spot any broken links, please let me know ASAP.
Thanks,
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
--
AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/
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Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
I like it. The layout is very simple. The only thing that I don't like
very much is the menu at the right. I think it'll be more clear if it's
in the left. Also, putting an AOLServer logo in the header, at the top
left, would improve the site quite a lot.
Anyways, thanks for your initiative. It's already better than it was
before, imho.
Kind Regards,
Juan José
On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 22:27 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Tonight, I pushed the static content from the aolserver.com homepage
> into WordPress 2.5. The current theme/design is minimal, but I'm hoping
> that someone will volunteer to help provide a web design that's modern
> and attractive.
>
> If you spot any broken links, please let me know ASAP.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Dossy
>
--
Dossy Shiobara
> I like it. The layout is very simple. The only thing that I don't like
> very much is the menu at the right. I think it'll be more clear if it's
> in the left.
Given well-publicized eye-tracking heat maps, the top left hand side of
a page is typically the "hottest" area. I favor putting the "newest
content" there rather than the navigation--the navigation doesn't
change, and users who are looking for it can easily find it. But, the
"new news" on the page that will change more frequently than the
navigation should start in the upper-left.
Of course, I can certainly move the nav to the left and see if it
"feels" better! Lets really start playing with the design until we
eventually come up with something that we can all be proud of.
> Also, putting an AOLServer logo in the header, at the top
> left, would improve the site quite a lot.
That's another thing: are there any graphic designers in the AOLserver
community? We really need a logo. I thought about putting up a small
amount of money to run a SitePoint logo design contest, but it would be
great if someone in the community would contribute the logo.
> Anyways, thanks for your initiative. It's already better than it was
> before, imho.
I think so, too. The aolserver.com site needs to become a focused piece
of marketing collateral that explains the AOLserver value proposition,
demonstrates our legacy of technical excellence, our competency at
being a scalable web infrastructure--not just a web content server, but
building entire application systems.
IMHO, the first step is giving us a modern look and feel. I'm going to
start working on authoring the content, but I would really appreciate
the community coming together and participating in the effort.
In the past, my calls for contributions have been mainly technical:
documentation, code patches, etc. The response has typically been
"[I'm] not technical enough to contribute." I accepted that as the
reality of the composition of our community. However, I'm now shifting
focus to doing a lot of the "non-technical" activities that haven't been
getting necessary attention over the years. I hope these are things
that almost everyone can participate in and contribute towards.
I hope that if we can successfully raise correct awareness of AOLserver,
it's capabilities and competencies, we will in turn attract the
necessary technical individuals to in turn work on the technical aspects
of the project that are also necessary.
What does everyone think?
-- Dossy
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Mark Aufflick
Surely AOL could spring a few bucks to get a nice web 3.0 logo made
up? It's probably in their interest to have some AOL-inspired device
in the logo.
--
Mark Aufflick
contact info at http://mark.aufflick.com/about/contact
Dossy Shiobara
> Looks clean - but it *really* needs a logo to inject some motion.
I agree; I'd like a modern and attractive logo treatment, along with a
few key icons for downloads, documentation, community ...
> Surely AOL could spring a few bucks to get a nice web 3.0 logo made
> up? It's probably in their interest to have some AOL-inspired device
> in the logo.
At this point, I would venture to say that AOL's participation in
AOLserver is limited to simply being its namesake. I would not expect
any direct contribution from AOL at this point.
I, however, may be inclined to put up a few hundred dollars toward a
SitePoint design contest for a new logo, if it wouldn't go to waste. I
often wonder: with so few contributors, how much investment does it
really justify?
I wrote this in an email to Jim Davidson privately, earlier today:
| The problem with secure and reliable software is you [the software
| developer] really have no leverage to _make_ people upgrade.
| Insecurity and instability are actually a benefit to open source
| projects because users are forced into upgrading--not to keep
| current, but just to keep functioning.
AOLserver is part of the application stack that once you get over the
initial hurdle of installing and configuring it, people pretty much
forget all about it.
System administrators aren't watching for security notices and planning
upgrades all the time for it. Application developers aren't pushing
management to upgrade to the latest and greatest version in order to
implement some new features to their application.
On one hand, these are exactly the reasons why I prefer AOLserver over
the alternatives: it's mature, it's stable, it's a very known quantity.
On the other hand, it makes forming an active and engaged community very
challenging.
I'm at the point where I no longer ask myself "how do I change this" but
"is there really any need to change this?"
If you answer "yes" ... I'd like to hear your reasons why.
Tom Jackson
> I wrote this in an email to Jim Davidson privately, earlier today:
> | The problem with secure and reliable software is you [the software
> | developer] really have no leverage to _make_ people upgrade.
> | Insecurity and instability are actually a benefit to open source
> | projects because users are forced into upgrading--not to keep
> | current, but just to keep functioning.
Dossy, your goals are at extreme odds to most anyone I know. Maybe join the
Microsoft team so you can _make_ people upgrade.
One question I have is why you think it is important to have an 'active and
engaged community' if there is very little left to do? It is baffling why
something which works needs to have active development, which forces users to
upgrade for no good reason.
> I'm at the point where I no longer ask myself "how do I change this" but
> "is there really any need to change this?"
>
> If you answer "yes" ... I'd like to hear your reasons why.
People who actually care about community, ask first. When have you ever,
honestly, done that?
If only you would follow your own advice and say why you are changing stuff
before you do it, that might help quite a lot, I haven't been able to detect
any reason behind your changes.
Personally I always ask "is there really any need to change this", that is the
first question, and with AOLserver, the answer is usually 'no'.
Instead of focusing on content, you seem stuck on changing software tools,
tools which nobody uses, and then there is a plea for icons and logos. This
is total bs. Can we get back to the basics here? This is not some php project
which needs eye candy to attract teenagers to hack at source code.
The bottom line is that until you articulate what you want to do, discussing
how you want to do it is a waste of time. AOLserver source code has arrived.
Trying to create a community around a desire for change is an extremely
destructive idea. Most everyone using AOLserver is very happy with the
stability of the code. If they are not happy, they are very likely
misinformed, so who cares.
What is missing is documentation. We have a structured documentation which was
derailed a few years back by the wiki idea. Now we have a new wiki tool, or
whatever wordpress is. Yet we have no new content. Wonder why? I would
venture to guess that nobody here cares at all to learn wiki or wordpress in
order to document source code.
Anyway, you asked.
tom jackson
Dossy Shiobara
> I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
It's awesome. Very Web 2.0 (gradient, reflection) ... an orange
starburst and a swoosh would fully trick it out as a Web 2.0 treatment.
Heh.
I've used the logo. Can you send me the GIMP .xcf file for it?
> BTW, are there any legal matters that we need to be concerned with in
> creating a logo for aolserver?
Good question. I really should have a serious conversation with AOL
Legal about this issue. I'm hoping that as long as we stay away from
the actual AOL logo treatment itself, we'll be okay ... but I'd like to
get that in writing.
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Brett Schwarz
BTW, are there any legal matters that we need to be concerned with in creating a logo for aolserver?
On 2008.04.08, Mark Aufflick <mark-ao...@AUFFLICK.COM> wrote:
> > Looks clean - but it *really* needs a logo to inject some motion.
> I agree; I'd like a modern and attractive logo treatment, along with a
> few key icons for downloads, documentation, community ...
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
-
Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
(+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
Simple Option S.L.
Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
http://www.simpleoption.com
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 14:29 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
>
> It's awesome. Very Web 2.0 (gradient, reflection) ... an orange
> starburst and a swoosh would fully trick it out as a Web 2.0 treatment.
> Heh.
>
> I've used the logo. Can you send me the GIMP .xcf file for it?
>
> > BTW, are there any legal matters that we need to be concerned with in
> > creating a logo for aolserver?
>
> Good question. I really should have a serious conversation with AOL
> Legal about this issue. I'm hoping that as long as we stay away from
> the actual AOL logo treatment itself, we'll be okay ... but I'd like to
> get that in writing.
>
>
--
Rick Cobb
If there's one thing aolserver ain't, it's "beta".
-- ReC
Brett Schwarz
> On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
>
> It's awesome. Very Web 2.0 (gradient, reflection) ... an orange
> starburst and a swoosh would fully trick it out as a Web 2.0 treatment.
> Heh.
>
Hey, does this mean I can put "graphic artist" on my resume ;) (for those serious folks...yes, I am joking)
For those who are interested, most of the design of the logo I followed from this tutorial: http://gimp-tutorials.net/node/91
> I've used the logo. Can you send me the GIMP .xcf file for it?
http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.xcf
cheers,
--bret
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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Brett Schwarz
----- Original Message ----
From: Juan José del Río (Simple Option) <juan...@SIMPLEOPTION.COM>
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:43:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
What about this?!
-
Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
(+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
Simple Option S.L.
Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
http://www.simpleoption.com
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 14:29 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
>
> It's awesome. Very Web 2.0 (gradient, reflection) ... an orange
> starburst and a swoosh would fully trick it out as a Web 2.0 treatment.
> Heh.
>
> I've used the logo. Can you send me the GIMP .xcf file for it?
>
> > BTW, are there any legal matters that we need to be concerned with in
> > creating a logo for aolserver?
>
> Good question. I really should have a serious conversation with AOL
> Legal about this issue. I'm hoping that as long as we stay away from
> the actual AOL logo treatment itself, we'll be okay ... but I'd like to
> get that in writing.
>
>
Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
- But "Beta" seems to attract so many people to certain
technologies/software... Even if some people don't like new people, they
are somehow needed. We'll die someday. We need someone to take over our
tasks.
- We can say that it's 1% beta. Sure there's something that still
crashes from time to time! If not, let me upload some patches, and
you'll see... lol
Note: I am half kidding, half serious.
-
Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
(+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
Simple Option S.L.
Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
http://www.simpleoption.com
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 13:52 -0700, Rick Cobb wrote:
> Well, it's certainly compliant :-), but I suspect Mr. Jackson would object.
> If there's one thing aolserver ain't, it's "beta".
>
> -- ReC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf Of Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:44 PM
> To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
>
> What about this?!
>
> -
> Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
> (+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
>
>
> Simple Option S.L.
> Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
> Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
> http://www.simpleoption.com
>
>
> On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 14:29 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> > On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp.. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
Jeff Rogers
> Yes, but:
>
> - But "Beta" seems to attract so many people to certain
> technologies/software... Even if some people don't like new people, they
> are somehow needed. We'll die someday. We need someone to take over our
> tasks.
>
> - We can say that it's 1% beta. Sure there's something that still
> crashes from time to time! If not, let me upload some patches, and
> you'll see... lol
>
>
> Note: I am half kidding, half serious.
Back in the old days we labeled stuff "Under Construction". "Beta"
seems much more formal, snazzy, ... "2.0".
http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/12/27/web-2
-J
Jade Rubick
Jade
Jade Rubick
Acting Chief Technology Officer
United eWay
jade....@uwa.unitedway.org
tel (503)285-4963
fax (707)671-1333
www.UNITEDeWAY.org
Brett Schwarz
http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver2.jpg
Although the "orange" color kind of changed when it was converted to jpg...it was originally more like what Juan had...
----- Original Message ----
From: Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM>
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 1:58:01 PM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
I like the color. Not sure if Dossy was serious, but actually thinking about more...some sort of swoosh over the "server" part..in that color would look nice I think...but I'm biased...I like blue/orange color scheme...
----- Original Message ----
From: Juan José del Río (Simple Option) <juan...@SIMPLEOPTION.COM>
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:43:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
What about this?!
-
Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
(+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
Simple Option S.L.
Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
http://www.simpleoption.com
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 14:29 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
>
> It's awesome. Very Web 2.0 (gradient, reflection) ... an orange
> starburst and a swoosh would fully trick it out as a Web 2.0 treatment.
> Heh.
>
> I've used the logo. Can you send me the GIMP .xcf file for it?
>
> > BTW, are there any legal matters that we need to be concerned with in
> > creating a logo for aolserver?
>
> Good question. I really should have a serious conversation with AOL
> Legal about this issue. I'm hoping that as long as we stay away from
> the actual AOL logo treatment itself, we'll be okay ... but I'd like to
> get that in writing.
>
>
--
AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/
To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to <list...@listserv.aol.com> with the
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____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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--
AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/
To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to <list...@listserv.aol.com> with the
body of "SIGNOFF AOLSERVER" in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
Tom Jackson
> Well, it's certainly compliant :-), but I suspect Mr. Jackson would object.
> If there's one thing aolserver ain't, it's "beta".
Well, at least he has a goal to achieve, and once we attract 'people' who are
interested in developing beta grade software, we will surely get there very
quickly.
A cute logo isn't going to attract the level of developer who would be able to
maintain AOLserver, much less provide a useful enhancement.
But like I said: why not figure out what needs to be done...first.
IMHO, by advertising the stability of the AOLserver API, you will attract
users who would otherwise be correctly scared off by constant hacking.
Another thing which might attract interest is if our current community members
would write a brief application note explaining how they use AOLserver, and
why they chose it over other potential platforms. Additionally, we could
catalog sites known to run on AOLserver. My guess is that developers who have
similar interests and motivations or similar problem solving skills as
current community members will be attracted to the community. Given the fact
that there have been only a handfull of CVS commits in the last year, I would
venture to guess that most community members are happy with the current
codebase, and that means that new community members will probably be looking
for a mature project which allows them to focus on their own application, at
least at first. Then, they may contribute a module which extends AOLserver. A
quick look at all the modules in CVS suggests that this is the best way to
contribute code, not by hacking on the core.
Change for the sake of change will scare off any sane developer, we don't
charge for upgrades, please remember this fact.
tom jackson
Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
As a suggestion: save it as PNG, that way colours won't change.
Also, you can try starting the lines from the L itself, or more to the
right than they're now. Or you can make them fade in from the L too... I
don't know how to fix it exactly, but that I like the lines is a fact :)
Good work :)
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 15:42 -0700, Brett Schwarz wrote:
> Something sort of like this, is what I was thinking about:
>
> http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver2.jpg
>
> Although the "orange" color kind of changed when it was converted to jpg....it was originally more like what Juan had...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> >From: Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM>
> To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 1:58:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
>
> I like the color. Not sure if Dossy was serious, but actually thinking about more...some sort of swoosh over the "server" part..in that color would look nice I think...but I'm biased...I like blue/orange color scheme...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> >From: Juan José del Río (Simple Option) <juan...@SIMPLEOPTION.COM>
> To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:43:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
>
> What about this?!
>
> -
> Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
> (+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
>
>
> Simple Option S.L.
> Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
> Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
> http://www.simpleoption.com
>
>
> On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 14:29 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> > On 2008.04.08, Brett Schwarz <brett_...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> > > I threw this together http://www.bschwarz.com/aolserver.jpg with Gimp.. Now, I'm not a graphic's wiz, but I thought I would create something basic that we can start with, as a way to get to the design we want. I would be willing to *try* to make any suggested enhancements, but like I said, I am no graphics designer. Perhaps this will spark some momentum.
Dossy Shiobara
> As a suggestion: save it as PNG, that way colours won't change.
And, make sure to keep the original .xcf, so lossless changes can be
made. :-)
> Also, you can try starting the lines from the L itself, or more to the
> right than they're now. Or you can make them fade in from the L too... I
> don't know how to fix it exactly, but that I like the lines is a fact :)
I don't think the lines should fade in, but they should be "staggered"
to match the slant of the "L".
I'll grab Brett's .xcf and see if I can make the change I'm talking
about.
Indeed, great work, Brett. Thanks for taking the initiative with this.
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Dossy Shiobara
3), and added a slight single pixel step, to try and match the slant of
the "L".
http://aolserver.com/images/aolserver.png
http://aolserver.com/images/aolserver.xcf
I'd like to redo the original .xcf - what font face and size did you
use? Colors, etc. (Can you tell _I'm_ not a pixel jockey? I can't
tell just from looking at what you did ... heh.)
Brett Schwarz
BTW, the xcf for the second version is at my website as well: aolserver2.xcf
Here are the logos I have so far, with 2 additional based on Juan's commets'... the last 2 are png as well...
http://bschwarz.com/aol_logo.html
----- Original Message ----
From: Dossy Shiobara <do...@PANOPTIC.COM>
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:24:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
On 2008.04.09, Juan José del Río (Simple Option) <juan...@SIMPLEOPTION.COM> wrote:
> As a suggestion: save it as PNG, that way colours won't change.
And, make sure to keep the original .xcf, so lossless changes can be
made. :-)
> Also, you can try starting the lines from the L itself, or more to the
> right than they're now. Or you can make them fade in from the L too... I
> don't know how to fix it exactly, but that I like the lines is a fact :)
I don't think the lines should fade in, but they should be "staggered"
to match the slant of the "L".
I'll grab Brett's .xcf and see if I can make the change I'm talking
about.
Indeed, great work, Brett. Thanks for taking the initiative with this.
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
--
AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/
To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to <list...@listserv.aol.com> with the
body of "SIGNOFF AOLSERVER" in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
____________________________________________________________________________________
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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Brett Schwarz
darn it...I thought by saving as xcf, Gimp would remember the colors, etc .... :(
I believe I used Arial bold italic for the text. I think I started with the blues in the article I quoted, but ended up making them darker. The colors from the article were 6291c0 and cce6f9. Sorry about that...I should have noted everything...I don't play around with the Gimp much :(
----- Original Message ----
From: Dossy Shiobara <do...@PANOPTIC.COM>
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 5:48:55 PM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
OK, so I added one more horizontal line (so now there are 4 instead of
3), and added a slight single pixel step, to try and match the slant of
the "L".
http://aolserver.com/images/aolserver.png
http://aolserver.com/images/aolserver.xcf
I'd like to redo the original .xcf - what font face and size did you
use? Colors, etc. (Can you tell _I'm_ not a pixel jockey? I can't
tell just from looking at what you did ... heh.)
On 2008.04.08, Dossy Shiobara <do...@PANOPTIC.COM> wrote:
Rick Cobb
> A
> quick look at all the modules in CVS suggests that this is the best
way to
> contribute code, not by hacking on the core.
I think that's an effect, not a cause. My company stopped submitting
changes well before I came to it (2003) because the core changes it
needed were not acted on (i.e., accepted). We still don't believe that:
* Conns should belong to a single thread
* Authentication and authorization belong in the same module
* A deployment will only use one authentication protocol
(Ns_ConnReturnUnauthorized)
* System logging shouldn't have hooks for external system log
consolidation (syslog, mod_log_spread...)
At least the first of those got some action in 4.x, but we've still had
to modify the core and drivers to get our connection count up where we
want it on Windows (>10000 established sockets; that may help folks
understand why 1 thread == 1 socket doesn't work well for us).
(I'm aware OpenACS has a fine set of workarounds (sorry, modules and
deployment conventions) for the second and third problem, but I can't
use 'em (and don't read the source for 'em) since it's GPL'ed.)
But we don't submit our changes, because going through the process you
suggest (which I admit, we use an abbreviated form of internally) would
double our technical management overhead, and have us working on use
cases we frankly don't ever deal with (e.g., virtual hosting).
Would we take that overhead if our developers didn't think they'd end up
spending as much time arguing (sorry, "motivating their changes") with
folks who won't affect our bottom line as they do with their colleagues
& customers? I don't know; I think we'd be more likely to.
I second your thought that setting direction would be good. But I find
it very easy to hear your input as "nullity is a good direction".
Stability has its costs as well as its benefits --
-- ReC
-----Original Message-----
From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf
Of Tom Jackson
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:52 PM
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [AOLSERVER] Minor facelift to aolserver.com
Don Baccus
>
>
> I second your thought that setting direction would be good. But I find
> it very easy to hear your input as "nullity is a good direction".
Tom will recognize me as someone who at times slaps him (or my
forehead, in exasperation), but I do believe in this case you may be
misunderstanding him.
He's arguing against change for the sake of change, and particularly
his perception that one person at times acts as though AOLserver is
his playground (i.e. changes made in 4.5 that weren't discussed
beforehand in the community).
I would hope the community could be somewhat efficient at
communication, discussion, and resolution regarding changes that
affect existing users. But even if this isn't true, changes that
affect us that are made unilaterally just piss people off.
AOLserver isn't a very popular webserver, but our small world includes
people running large sites (you with your 10,000 sockets, in the
OpenACS case university environments with 40,000 users running on our
e-learning platform). It's important that the community be involved,
and that changes not simply be made, announced in release notes, by
fiat.
I think that's sorta the scenario Tom's ranting about.
How wrong am I, Tom?
>
> Stability has its costs as well as its benefits --
I don't think anyone is going to argue against changes that are
useful, well-implemented, and don't make life more difficult for folks
who don't need those changes...
----
Don Baccus
http://donb.photo.net
http://birdnotes.net
http://openacs.org
Tom Jackson
Hopefully you recognize the difference between your private hacking and
forcing everyone to adopt your hacking by applying it to the core code. It
should be expected that AOLserver developers will need changes to the core
code to allow their application to function more efficiently, but that
doesn't mean that the changes are universally helpful.
But, your application may expose a flaw or a limitation in the core code. This
is the benefit of applications, the tend to test the assumptions used to
develop the environment. But the change to the core has to preserve the
original functionality, and extend it, or make it more general. Usually these
types of changes have the quality of simplifying the core, not making it more
complex. These types of changes are easy to identify, their solution seems so
obvious.
Anyway, the way this simplification usually presents itself is in a
modularization of the code, something like a plug-in type functionality. This
is the type of core changes that interest me, in general, higher level APIs
remain unchanged, but you get different implementations between some lower
level and the higher level, stable API.
This type of refactorization is difficult and requires expert knowledge, and
it should be obvious that we can't find that type of expertise from
developers who are interested in generic API development.
The point is to change the core so that you can add your new functionality as
a module.
So without tough requirements like yours there is nothing to inform us of the
limitations of the core code, but once these limitations are exposed there is
another step: you need to work at perfecting the core without making it more
complex. Over time, what should happen is that the core code becomes less
complex and supports more features via add on modules.
I know we are not there yet, but future work will not be successful unless it
is informed by real world applications and aims at simplification of the
core.
I know I have a (possibly well deserved) reputation for resisting change. This
is not exactly what bugs me. What usually cause me to complain is the missing
step of simplifying the core to support the new functionality. The basis for
this complaining is easy to explain. The core code works very well for
everyone except for the person who discovers otherwise. Any changes that
complicate the core code only benefit this person and make it more difficult
to maintain for everyone else. Even if it adds functionality, until
yesterday, nobody cared about it. So, simply adding new functionality is not
a benefit if it doesn't come with some refactoring, or maybe correcting a
true deficiency.
The contribution is not the new functionality, the contribution is
refactoring, correcting deficiencies, and simplification. These things help
everyone, the new functionality only helps you.
But there will always be applications which require core changes which are
unique. This doesn't mean the application is flawed, or that the AOLserver
API is lacking, this is why we have open source. Sometimes developers come up
with unique problems that demand unique solutions. The AOLserver core is also
a great starting point for such development, because it remains clean and
mostly rational. But every API has limitations, this is a requirement.
In answer to your true observation:
"Stability has its costs as well as its benefits"
Actually stability is the ultimate goal, instability has no benefit for those
who are happy with the current code. My argument is that development must
focus on stability. If you take into consideration the effect of what you
want to do on everyone else, the result will be positive. If, instead, you
seek only to add new functionality, to move the ball forward, to contribute
something that you think is important, the result is likely to be not so
good. Community development means that you respect the current situation but
want to improve it without disrespecting the current situation.
But the cost of blind stability is really stagnation and death. My real gripe
is that, correctly or not, I perceive many attempts to change AOLserver as
leading to instability, mostly due to a lack of effort. What I am interested
in is 'dynamic stability'. That means that change is sometimes expensive to
do right. AOLserver has reached a point of development where the idea of a
small change is the hallmark of ignorance. There are no small changes at this
point.
tom jackson
Tom Jackson
> How wrong am I, Tom?
Usually when you are slapping me around...never.
I just posted a more obtuse message which said about what you said, but more
obtusely.
I'll just lament that for some unknown reason most of AOL's liasons to the
AOLserver community have had a noticeably corrosive effect on 'community',
most notably upon the documentation effort.
I wish it were not so.
tom jackson
Don Baccus
> On Tuesday 08 April 2008 19:52, Don Baccus wrote:
>> How wrong am I, Tom?
>
> Usually when you are slapping me around...never.
Hmmm, not sure I agree, but ... I'll accept the complement :)
>
> I just posted a more obtuse message which said about what you said,
> but more
> obtusely.
I've done some writing for newspapers, there's nothing better for
learning to be concise (though I do tend to ramble on in private typed
communication, regardless, but imagine how much worse it would be if I
hadn't been subjected to editorial standards earlier on?)
Anyway, the old line, "who, what, when, where" (and then "stop
writing") isn't a bad thing to keep in mind :)
>
>
> I'll just lament that for some unknown reason most of AOL's liasons
> to the
> AOLserver community have had a noticeably corrosive effect on
> 'community',
> most notably upon the documentation effort.
>
Dossy means well, but sometimes it's perhaps hard to remember that
some of our users really, really, depend on AOLserver to operate
consistently, well, and maintain backwards compatibility.
I know of at least two universities, each with 40K+ users, who are
probing (vaguely in my direction), for an Apache-hosted version of the
openacs .lrn platform. Um, to pay for it, I mean.
Most openacs users have refused to move to 4.5, because 4.0.10 works
well and bad experiences testing 4.5 with their sites.
That should be cause for pause for those who think there's no problem
here ...
Francesco P. Lovergine
I wonder why AOLServer did not adopt a TIPs-like approach. That is
specifically useful to track improvements (what, why and how, pros and
cons discussions, etc.) and making transparent the development process.
I think I already suggested that kind of approach in the past,
but someone objected that AOLServer community it's too tiny
to adopt this kind of solution. I strongly disagree about that,
I know well other little but important
communities which adopted something like that, such as:
http://trac.osgeo.org/gdal/wiki/rfc1_pmc
The aim is exactly manging a project with a well-stated API
and products, so ensuring stability while avoiding staling
development.
--
Francesco P. Lovergine
Dossy Shiobara
> AOLserver isn't a very popular webserver, but our small world includes
> people running large sites (you with your 10,000 sockets, in the OpenACS
> case university environments with 40,000 users running on our e-learning
> platform). It's important that the community be involved, and that
> changes not simply be made, announced in release notes, by fiat.
Great! I agree. Lets try to come up with a list of 5 enhancements that
we can all agree would be "a good improvement" and start working towards
that.
At the top of everyone's list seems to be "improved documentation."
What else?
...
Eventually, we will settle on a list of things that we've eventually
arrived at through this consensus-forming process. At that point, Don
(or Tom), how do we go about actually accomplishing these tasks and
completing these changes? Do we have any workable way of solving that
problem?
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Rick Cobb
* Cleanly separate authentication from authorization, with the goal of
supporting more than one authentication system on the same virtual
server without requiring OpenACS. We've done a good enough job if users
can download the appropriate modules and then configure to support
SPNEGO, DIGEST, and client-side certs, and yet provide a login form
(i.e., not a browser prompt) for browser users on specific incoming
networks, with little or no Tcl programming.
I suspect this is primarily of importance to enterprise deployments; I
haven't heard a clamor for it from consumer/education sites. Then again,
AFAICT from the documentation, OpenACS has gone a long way toward
solving this problem in layers on top of (I'd almost say "in spite of")
AOLServer.
-- ReC
-----Original Message-----
From: AOLserver Discussion [mailto:AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM] On Behalf
Of Dossy Shiobara
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:21 AM
To: AOLS...@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Juan José del Río (Simple Option)
I was going to suggest adding support for another language apart from
TCL... be it Mono. That'd give support for languages such as C#, VB,
Python, and faster performance.
... am I too crazy? :)
Regards,
Juan José
-
Juan José del Río | Comercio online / e-commerce
(+34) 616 512 340 | juan...@simpleoption.com
Simple Option S.L.
Tel: (+34) 951 930 122
Fax: (+34) 951 930 122
http://www.simpleoption.com
On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 13:21 -0400, Dossy Shiobara wrote:
> On 2008.04.08, Don Baccus <dho...@PACIFIER.COM> wrote:
> > AOLserver isn't a very popular webserver, but our small world includes
> > people running large sites (you with your 10,000 sockets, in the OpenACS
> > case university environments with 40,000 users running on our e-learning
> > platform). It's important that the community be involved, and that
> > changes not simply be made, announced in release notes, by fiat.
>
> Great! I agree. Lets try to come up with a list of 5 enhancements that
> we can all agree would be "a good improvement" and start working towards
> that.
>
> At the top of everyone's list seems to be "improved documentation."
> What else?
>
> ....
>
> Eventually, we will settle on a list of things that we've eventually
> arrived at through this consensus-forming process. At that point, Don
> (or Tom), how do we go about actually accomplishing these tasks and
> completing these changes? Do we have any workable way of solving that
> problem?
>
>
--
Dossy Shiobara
> Suggestions? Ok, here I go...
>
> I was going to suggest adding support for another language apart from
> TCL... be it Mono. That'd give support for languages such as C#, VB,
> Python, and faster performance.
>
> ... am I too crazy? :)
In order to support a language in the core, the language runtime must
have these two non-negotiable properties:
1) Fully thread-safe
2) Embeddable
Otherwise, the best you can do is execute code in the other language in
a nsproxy outside of the nsd process space.
This is why I started work on nsjsapi, support for in-process
server-side JavaScript in AOLserver. SpiderMonkey, the JavaScript
runtime, has both of those properties I listed above.
--
Dossy Shiobara | do...@panoptic.com | http://dossy.org/
Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/
"He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)
Andrew Piskorski
> Suggestions? Ok, here I go...
>
> I was going to suggest adding support for another language apart from
> TCL... be it Mono. That'd give support for languages such as C#, VB,
> Python, and faster performance.
>
> ... am I too crazy? :)
Crazy, no. But I think the onus will be on you to actually add full
support for whatever this other not-Tcl not-C language is that you're
interested in. AFAIK, doing so is feasible, but so far, everyone
interested in such support seems to have hacked at it for a while, and
then lost interest and quit.
See also: http://panoptic.com/wiki/aolserver/Languages
Languages people have done that level of work for seem to include at
least: Python, Standard ML, Objective Caml, Scheme, Ruby, and Perl.
Vlad Seryakov wrote the OCaml module and apparently was using it for
something real. The guys who did the ML support wrote up a nice paper
on their use of AOLserver years ago, but I don't know if they've
really used it much since then. Ah, probably not, as they apparently
moved to Apache in Feb. 2007.
I don't think the guy who was adding it ever actually used the Python
support much, and the Scheme and Perl modules were definitely very
early alpha development only. Probably the same for Ruby.
People out there are probably using AOLservers Java and PHP modules
for real, but more for integration with other existing code and
libraries, NOT so much for new web development per se with AOLserver.
If you want to add C# support, well, no one is stopping you...
--
Andrew Piskorski <a...@piskorski.com>
http://www.piskorski.com/
Tom Jackson
> Suggestions? Ok, here I go...
>
> I was going to suggest adding support for another language apart from
> TCL... be it Mono. That'd give support for languages such as C#, VB,
> Python, and faster performance.
>
> ... am I too crazy? :)
As Andrew said, it isn't crazy to suggest another language....but:
1. AOLserver is a Tcl application, it is written in and extends the Tcl C API,
it could be nearly impossible to 'add support for another language' because:
2. The thread/shared memory/synchonization model is much better than C#, VB or
Python, and is actually well documented because it is based upon the pthreads
API (But it is also essentially mostly invisible at the application level). A
Java 5 threads API, finally introduced some features that AOLserver has had
for 'ever':
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/concurrency/overview.html
It is hard to say if these newer languages (C# and MONO) have these features,
probably VB and Python don't:
task scheduling: ns_schedule_proc, ns_job
concurrent collections: nsv arrays, ns_share, static vars (config structure)
atomic variables: nsv arrays
synchronizers: ns_mutex, ns_cond, etc.
2.5 AOLserver I/O model is about 50-75% faster than Tcl Threads
3. Faster? Don't know what benchmarks you are using to determine this need,
but it would be last on my list of what needs to be done. Personally, I think
we should freeze any effort at performance enhancement, unless and until we
get some super-Guru with institutional support, and a very good reason for
doing it. The current version 4.5 is about 10% faster than 4.0.x, and I have
heard that Tcl 8.5 is also about 10% faster than 8.4. On the level of
application speed, it will probably become even harder to find any scripting
language faster than Tcl, although it clearly is slow at the typical
specialized algorithm tests.
4. Support for language X is always suggested. Even if all the problems above
didn't exist, it would obviously double the code base, at minimum, and it
would fracture the community into two. Those who use Tcl and those who use
language X.
5. Now, ignoring all of the above, the first thing to figure out is what does
it mean to add support for a language, because there have been modules such
as ns_java, ns_jk2, (a javascript module), I think an oberon/modula type
language.
6. At the very least, there needs to be an effort to explain this situation,
the difficulties are more practical than logical.
tom jackson
Andrew Piskorski
> 2. The thread/shared memory/synchonization model is much better than C#, VB or
> Python, and is actually well documented because it is based upon the pthreads
> API (But it is also essentially mostly invisible at the application level). A
> Java 5 threads API, finally introduced some features that AOLserver has had
> for 'ever':
>
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/concurrency/overview.html
>
> It is hard to say if these newer languages (C# and MONO) have these features,
> probably VB and Python don't:
Btw, I was flipping through this book the other night, and I noticed
its chapter 30, "Threads and States".
http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Lua-Second-Roberto-Ierusalimschy/dp/8590379825/
Programming in Lua, Second Edition, by Roberto Ierusalimschy
Lua has "states", which are sounds equivalent to Tcl "interps", and
"threads", which are lightweight cooperative non-concurrent
user-threads, normally used only to support Lua's coroutines.
Standard Lua runs in one OS thread only, but appears to be totally
thread safe.
That chapter basically walks through a simple example of how to take
Lua "states" and "threads", plus the usual POSIX pthreads C API, and
construct a system for running concurrent lightweight Lua processes on
multiple OS threads. He never mentions it (and may have been more
inspired by Erlang), but that sounds exactly like the "apartment
model" of threading that Tcl and AOLserver have had for years and
years. (At least 10 years now, probably more? I don't really know.)
Note, Lua does not actually include this lightweight-process /
apartment-threading support at all, but I thought it was interesting
that making it work like Tcl appears so straightforward.
Ierusalimschy also has a recent paper that seems to give a pretty nice
overview of concerns when designing embedable and extensible scripting
languages:
http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/%7Eroberto/docs/jucs-c-apis.pdf
Hisham Muhammad and Roberto Ierusalimschy. C APIs in extension and
extensible languages. In XI Brazilian Symposium on Programming
Languages, Natal, May 2007. (to appear)
Unfortunately, although he compares and contrasts Lua to Perl, Python,
and Ruby, he barely mentions Tcl at all. That may explain why he
didn't notice that Chapter 30 of his book basically recapitulates
Tcl's Threading design...
(Btw, I have never actually used the language, just read about it, but
Lua's big weakness appears to be its relative dearth of standard
libraries.)
--
Andrew Piskorski <a...@piskorski.com>
http://www.piskorski.com/
Andrew Piskorski
> It is hard to say if these newer languages (C# and MONO) have these features,
> probably VB and Python don't:
>
> task scheduling: ns_schedule_proc, ns_job
> concurrent collections: nsv arrays, ns_share, static vars (config structure)
> atomic variables: nsv arrays
> synchronizers: ns_mutex, ns_cond, etc.
Incidentally, those aren't so much language features, they're more
features of the AOLserver/Tcl API and environment. "Tcl" didn't have
nsv_* or ANY of the cool stuff above until Jim Davidson and crew added
them to AOLserver sometime c. the mid 1990's, after all...
Some languages, and especially language implementations, would no
doubt be much more amenable to supporting those sorts of AOLserver
derived APIs than others, of course. But if you pick an appropriate
language and implementation to start with (e.g., JavaScript
Spidermonkey, Lua, some Scheme systems), it's PROBABLY "just" a Simple
Matter of Programming. :)
--
Andrew Piskorski <a...@piskorski.com>
http://www.piskorski.com/
Tom Jackson
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 02:11:30PM -0700, Tom Jackson wrote:
> > It is hard to say if these newer languages (C# and MONO) have these
> > features, probably VB and Python don't:
> >
> > task scheduling: ns_schedule_proc, ns_job
> > concurrent collections: nsv arrays, ns_share, static vars (config
> > structure) atomic variables: nsv arrays
> > synchronizers: ns_mutex, ns_cond, etc.
>
> Incidentally, those aren't so much language features, they're more
> features of the AOLserver/Tcl API and environment. "Tcl" didn't have
> nsv_* or ANY of the cool stuff above until Jim Davidson and crew added
Right, which is why talking about adding a language is somewhat the wrong
question. AOLserver is more of a framework, although Java/C# also have
somewhat hidden frameworks for concurrency/memory management. You can't just
add a language to AOLserver, because most languages don't provide the same
high level framework.
tom jackson
Jeff Hobbs
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 02:11:30PM -0700, Tom Jackson wrote:
>
>> It is hard to say if these newer languages (C# and MONO) have these features,
>> probably VB and Python don't:
>>
>> task scheduling: ns_schedule_proc, ns_job
>> concurrent collections: nsv arrays, ns_share, static vars (config structure)
>> atomic variables: nsv arrays
>> synchronizers: ns_mutex, ns_cond, etc.
>
> Incidentally, those aren't so much language features, they're more
> features of the AOLserver/Tcl API and environment. "Tcl" didn't have
> nsv_* or ANY of the cool stuff above until Jim Davidson and crew added
> them to AOLserver sometime c. the mid 1990's, after all...
Jim and crew deserve much credit for the very advanced state of Tcl's
threading capabilities, but he was by no means the first or only person
doing mt tcl. There were a few different attempts from various people
for various reasons. It was just the AOL guys that had the most
complete and worked with the core guys at the time for integration.
Jeff
Jay Rohr
Dossy Shiobara wrote:
>
> At the top of everyone's list seems to be "improved documentation."
> What else?
>
> ...
>
>
I would like to see full support for native (script and binary) TCL
packages. The current cloning method does not fully replicate all
package information. Some changes were made to 4.5 to increase the
support, but it is still not complete (and I'm not sure that it is
correct).
I have built my own "package" command replacement to try and solve the
problem. It works most of the time. (packages that are included from a
binary package are not caught). It also allows me to create a top-level
server definitions and have an init file that is very minimal with a
"package require server_name" as a startup.
I do NOT want to create a new set of ns_package... commands since any
existing packages that are used would not work inside the server.
Jim Davidson
1995) was based on a thread-safe hacked Tcl 7.3. I can't recall where
I got it -- I think someone at UCB did the work. We later hacked Tcl
7.4 and 8.1 on our own before enough support was in the Tcl core and
we were ready to give up on "ns_share" which was a significant hack
that couldn't reasonably be brought forward.
The integration still isn't perfect and AOLserver isn't built directly
on Tcl threads, maintaining it's "nsthreads" library which works well
enough with Tcl (differences in how thread-specific data are handled
is one area of divergence). Today nsthreads is a thin wrapper on
Posix or Win32 threads but in the past it was a bit more involved
(AOLserver pre-dates the final Posix thread spec).
-Jim
Tom Jackson
that make threads easy to use for specific problems. My point was that these
just appeared in Java 5! So AOLserver had a ten year head start. But the way
threads work in AOLserver and Tcl makes programming with threads much easier
than in languages like Java or C#. There are two important differences:
1. Java and C# combine data and methods into objects. So the orginal
synchronization keyword in Java was like a huge critical section (but I have
heard actually worse). In AOLserver, shared data is data only. Then there is
an API which uses a mutex/condition var to synchronize access. Critical
sections are only used when there is the potential of a recursive call using
the same mutex/condition. I think there is only one in AOLserver for the
master lock.
2. In Tcl the 'object' is the interp state. Only occasionally do these objects
have to interact with other interps or threads or global shared resources.
This makes objects bigger, but the programming model is vastly simplified.
AOLserver has the effect providing a framework for these objects to interact
locally and across a network.
tom jackson