Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework. .Net and mono are both open source and run on linux already so porting them to the android framework would be easy.
On Nov 12, 7:13 pm, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a > little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono > and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and > over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework.
I think Google made a decision to use a well-established platform for the application layer where numerous existing apps would already be able to quickly gravitate to. .NET or Java ... it's all better than using C++ like many other platforms and I expect in no time someone will create an App Builder that requires less nuts-and-bolts programming knowledge. Also, for most C# developers the switch the Java is an easy one.
Why should Google port .NET when with little time and effort you can use proven Linux technology, open source APIs and development tools? Also, keep in mind this is an OS/API set that should port well to numerous devices in little time so their future momentum is unlimited. Porting the .NET Micro Framework is handled by Microsoft under license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework). Given this, I doubt that Google could ensure the ability to keep the same momentum as a Linux-based solution with that dependency even with cost not being an issue.
That being said, you could always start the Mono Micro Framework project ;)
On Nov 13, 8:13 am, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a > little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono > and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and > over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework. .Net > and mono are both open source and run on linux already so porting them > to the android framework would be easy.
> Regards, > Eric Ramseur > .NET Software Architect
There is no need to port. Mono runs .net,java, and 30 other languages. All that needs to be done is get mono working on the linux kernal google released. Ill try myself and report back.
On Nov 12, 7:34 pm, Keith Adler <ke...@keithadler.info> wrote:
> I think Google made a decision to use a well-established platform for > the application layer where numerous existing apps would already be > able to quickly gravitate to. .NET or Java ... it's all better than > using C++ like many other platforms and I expect in no time someone > will create an App Builder that requires less nuts-and-bolts > programming knowledge. Also, for most C# developers the switch the > Java is an easy one.
> Why should Google port .NET when with little time and effort you can > use proven Linux technology, open source APIs and development tools? > Also, keep in mind this is an OS/API set that should port well to > numerous devices in little time so their future momentum is > unlimited. Porting the .NET Micro Framework is handled by Microsoft > under license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework). > Given this, I doubt that Google could ensure the ability to keep the > same momentum as a Linux-based solution with that dependency even with > cost not being an issue.
> That being said, you could always start the Mono Micro Framework > project ;)
> On Nov 13, 8:13 am, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a > > little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono > > and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and > > over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework. .Net > > and mono are both open source and run on linux already so porting them > > to the android framework would be easy.
> > Regards, > > Eric Ramseur > > .NET Software Architect- Hide quoted text -
Sorry if you guys misunderstood me. I dont think google went wrong in choosing java or do I think they should have chose .net over java. I simply think that they should have offered other frameworks BESIDES java as option. Also C# is a lot easier to use ( ive used java for 5 years) then java and J# is on the .NET and mono frameworks. Seeing how google is an open company, I thought there would be more choice then just a java api to start with. Same goes for the open social. Why are their just javascript and rest calls? What about soap web services? That would make more choice.
In response to the micro framework: I dont think there would be a need seeing how if mono can run on the linux kernal then you can run the entire framework on any mobile device.
On Nov 12, 7:44 pm, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is no need to port. Mono runs .net,java, and 30 other > languages. All that needs to be done is get mono working on the linux > kernal google released. Ill try myself and report back.
> On Nov 12, 7:34 pm, Keith Adler <ke...@keithadler.info> wrote:
> > I think Google made a decision to use a well-established platform for > > the application layer where numerous existing apps would already be > > able to quickly gravitate to. .NET or Java ... it's all better than > > using C++ like many other platforms and I expect in no time someone > > will create an App Builder that requires less nuts-and-bolts > > programming knowledge. Also, for most C# developers the switch the > > Java is an easy one.
> > Why should Google port .NET when with little time and effort you can > > use proven Linux technology, open source APIs and development tools? > > Also, keep in mind this is an OS/API set that should port well to > > numerous devices in little time so their future momentum is > > unlimited. Porting the .NET Micro Framework is handled by Microsoft > > under license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework). > > Given this, I doubt that Google could ensure the ability to keep the > > same momentum as a Linux-based solution with that dependency even with > > cost not being an issue.
> > That being said, you could always start the Mono Micro Framework > > project ;)
> > On Nov 13, 8:13 am, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> > > wrote:
> > > Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a > > > little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono > > > and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and > > > over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework. .Net > > > and mono are both open source and run on linux already so porting them > > > to the android framework would be easy.
> > > Regards, > > > Eric Ramseur > > > .NET Software Architect- Hide quoted text -
iPhone is concentrating in an Objective-C API, it makes sense for Google to concentrate on a single API, at least initially. I don't understand what you mean by supporting "different frameworks". You mean the CLR and the JVM at the sametime? That seems like a wasted effort. If you are saying they should have used the CLR instead of the JVM, then that's another argument (one I would disagree with too).
On Nov 12, 7:49 pm, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry if you guys misunderstood me. I dont think google went wrong in > choosing java or do I think they should have chose .net over java. I > simply think that they should have offered other frameworks BESIDES > java as option. Also C# is a lot easier to use ( ive used java for 5 > years) then java and J# is on the .NET and mono frameworks. Seeing > how google is an open company, I thought there would be more choice > then just a java api to start with. Same goes for the open social. > Why are their just javascript and rest calls? What about soap web > services? That would make more choice.
> In response to the micro framework: I dont think there would be a > need seeing how if mono can run on the linux kernal then you can run > the entire framework on any mobile device.
> On Nov 12, 7:44 pm, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > There is no need to port. Mono runs .net,java, and 30 other > > languages. All that needs to be done is get mono working on the linux > > kernal google released. Ill try myself and report back.
> > On Nov 12, 7:34 pm, Keith Adler <ke...@keithadler.info> wrote:
> > > I think Google made a decision to use a well-established platform for > > > the application layer where numerous existing apps would already be > > > able to quickly gravitate to. .NET or Java ... it's all better than > > > using C++ like many other platforms and I expect in no time someone > > > will create an App Builder that requires less nuts-and-bolts > > > programming knowledge. Also, for most C# developers the switch the > > > Java is an easy one.
> > > Why should Google port .NET when with little time and effort you can > > > use proven Linux technology, open source APIs and development tools? > > > Also, keep in mind this is an OS/API set that should port well to > > > numerous devices in little time so their future momentum is > > > unlimited. Porting the .NET Micro Framework is handled by Microsoft > > > under license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework). > > > Given this, I doubt that Google could ensure the ability to keep the > > > same momentum as a Linux-based solution with that dependency even with > > > cost not being an issue.
> > > That being said, you could always start the Mono Micro Framework > > > project ;)
> > > On Nov 13, 8:13 am, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> > > > wrote:
> > > > Dont you think just having Java running on some special framework is a > > > > little bit limiting? Why not also allowing other frameworks like mono > > > > and .NET? This would open the framework up to framework support and > > > > over 30 languages instead of just java and be a true framework. .Net > > > > and mono are both open source and run on linux already so porting them > > > > to the android framework would be easy.
You should stop using the phrase "instead of" and use choice. All Im asking is for choice. You also need to realize that making this a reality is not too complicated and Im not demanding anything. Im just seeing if anyone else would like to see .NET on top of the Android.
Let me make it really easy : Android OS = Linux Mono runs .NET Mono runs on Linux .NET runs on Android
Im just waiting to see if and when someone shows a screen shot of this. There is no waste of effort that needs to take place. In fact mono could run out of the box on the kernal.
Also microsoft created the Compact framework years ago that supports many devices so google is a little behind. However, Google presents more opportunity by making a powerful platform completly open source. There would be no need to run the compact framework on Android ( et this is possible) since you can run the whole superset on top.
J# is being supported upto 2015. M$ just doesnt want to maintain it in Visual Studio as they have chosen C# / VB.NET as a standard for now and future versions. However J# is fully supported in VS 2005 and 2008 beta for .NET 2.0 and 3.0 frameworks.
"Retirement of J# language and Java Language Conversion Assistant from future versions of Visual Studio
Since customers have told us that the existing J# feature set largely meets their needs and usage of J# is declining, Microsoft is retiring the Visual J# product and Java Language Conversion Assistant tool to better allocate resources for other customer requirements. The J# language and JLCA tool will not be available in future versions of Visual Studio. To preserve existing customer investments in J#, Microsoft will continue to support the J# and JLCA technology that shipped with Visual Studio 2005 through to 2015 as per our product life-cycle strategy. For more information, see Expanded Microsoft Support Lifecycle Policy for Business & Development Products."
IMO, As long as there is even the slight chance of legal problems, i very much doubt Google will provide any support for either mono, or Microsoft .Net
On Nov 12, 2007 8:59 PM, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You should stop using the phrase "instead of" and use choice. All Im > asking is for choice. You also need to realize that making this a > reality is not too complicated and Im not demanding anything. Im just > seeing if anyone else would like to see .NET on top of the Android.
> Let me make it really easy : Android OS = Linux > Mono runs .NET > Mono runs on Linux > .NET runs on Android
> Im just waiting to see if and when someone shows a screen shot of > this. There is no waste of effort that needs to take place. In fact > mono could run out of the box on the kernal.
> Also microsoft created the Compact framework years ago that supports > many devices so google is a little behind. However, Google presents > more opportunity by making a powerful platform completly open source. > There would be no need to run the compact framework on Android ( et > this is possible) since you can run the whole superset on top.
Actually, I can completely see where Ramseur is coming from.
.NET on Android means that existing .NET Windows Mobile apps could be ported with ease. Between Java and .NET, Android would have existing (smartphone) platforms covered. Users will want familiarity with existing apps, the fastest transition is to port apps to the Android platform. It doesn't surprise me that Google's not coming out of the box supporting .NET, it would show an expected reliance on MS products. However, I expect them to make it pretty easy to run .NET apps to make Android more than competitive with Windows Mobile.
I see things going like this:
Step 1. Awesome existing app (say like PocketCM) exists in .NET format for WM Step 2. App is ported to Android easily, retains current functionality. Step 3. App improves significantly as Android functionality is added. Step 4. Profit!!! :-)
Google knows they don't have to do the work, demand and creativity will get .NET working for them, as Ramseur is willing to do. I'm excited and can't wait til the day when I'm booting Android.
Charles doublerebel.com
On Nov 12, 5:05 pm, "Ahmet A. Akin" <ahme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMO, As long as there is even the slight chance of legal problems, i > very much doubt Google will provide any support for either mono, or > Microsoft .Net
> On Nov 12, 2007 8:59 PM, Out of the Head of Ramseur <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You should stop using the phrase "instead of" and use choice. All Im > > asking is for choice. You also need to realize that making this a > > reality is not too complicated and Im not demanding anything. Im just > > seeing if anyone else would like to see .NET on top of the Android.
> > Let me make it really easy : Android OS = Linux > > Mono runs .NET > > Mono runs on Linux > > .NET runs on Android
> > Im just waiting to see if and when someone shows a screen shot of > > this. There is no waste of effort that needs to take place. In fact > > mono could run out of the box on the kernal.
> > Also microsoft created the Compact framework years ago that supports > > many devices so google is a little behind. However, Google presents > > more opportunity by making a powerful platform completly open source. > > There would be no need to run the compact framework on Android ( et > > this is possible) since you can run the whole superset on top.
LMAO, do you really think Google wants to run a Microsoft dependant framework on this project? Android is OpenSource not propetary as M$ crap. Since when there is lots of Mono applications avabile?. I just know 2 of them.
What have C# that Java Doesn't have? Java have all and more the JVM can run 200 languages on top of it http://www.robert-tolksdorf.de/vmlanguages.html. I see more Java apps everyday than .Net apps.
You want to run .Net frameworks apps there is Microshaft and Windows world go ahead. With Andriod you use "Java" and you get a great development platform also Eclipse is far superior IDE than VS since long time ago.
And mono, I dont trust mono with patent infrigin behind all the time, I dont want to be worry about patents and that crap.
Andriod as I see it and reading the SDK it is an universal Java/Linux platform stack for small devices so you can write 3rd party managed applications in Java with pleasure and great tools as Eclipse.
> Actually, I can completely see where Ramseur is coming from.
> .NET on Android means that existing .NET Windows Mobile apps could be > ported with ease. Between Java and .NET, Android would have existing > (smartphone) platforms covered. Users will want familiarity with > existing apps, the fastest transition is to port apps to the Android > platform. It doesn't surprise me that Google's not coming out of the > box supporting .NET, it would show an expected reliance on MS > products. However, I expect them to make it pretty easy to run .NET > apps to make Android more than competitive with Windows Mobile.
> I see things going like this:
> Step 1. Awesome existing app (say like PocketCM) exists in .NET format > for WM > Step 2. App is ported to Android easily, retains current > functionality. > Step 3. App improves significantly as Android functionality is added. > Step 4. Profit!!! :-)
> Google knows they don't have to do the work, demand and creativity > will get .NET working for them, as Ramseur is willing to do. I'm > excited and can't wait til the day when I'm booting Android.
> Charles > doublerebel.com
> On Nov 12, 5:05 pm, "Ahmet A. Akin" <ahme...@gmail.com> wrote: >> IMO, As long as there is even the slight chance of legal problems, i >> very much doubt Google will provide any support for either mono, or >> Microsoft .Net
>> On Nov 12, 2007 8:59 PM, Out of the Head of Ramseur >> <rams...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You should stop using the phrase "instead of" and use choice. All >>> Im >>> asking is for choice. You also need to realize that making this a >>> reality is not too complicated and Im not demanding anything. Im >>> just >>> seeing if anyone else would like to see .NET on top of the Android.
>>> Let me make it really easy : Android OS = Linux >>> Mono runs .NET >>> Mono runs on Linux >>> .NET runs on Android
>>> Im just waiting to see if and when someone shows a screen shot of >>> this. There is no waste of effort that needs to take place. In >>> fact >>> mono could run out of the box on the kernal.
>>> Also microsoft created the Compact framework years ago that supports >>> many devices so google is a little behind. However, Google presents >>> more opportunity by making a powerful platform completly open >>> source. >>> There would be no need to run the compact framework on Android ( et >>> this is possible) since you can run the whole superset on top.
> i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > for Android.
> They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > recognized programming language.
> I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > programmers.
> (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
Best regards.
On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > for Android.
> They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > recognized programming language.
> I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > programmers.
> (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
> We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> Best regards.
> On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi There!
> > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > for Android.
> > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > recognized programming language.
> > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > programmers.
> > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? A: Microsoft
Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for other OS/hardware architectures? A: No, the code is not open source
Does MS claim there are patents in their implementation of .NET/C#? A: Yes. That means even if you implement your own CLR without looking at the MS code you could be sued.
Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? A: Yes.
Why is Mono then tolerated? A: So people can say .NET is cross-platform. Mono will always lag and be an inferior implementation of .NET than what MS provides.
Is Java a standard? A: Well, the Java language and API features are developed in a completely open way (see JSR). The implementation is completely open source. In my view, this is superior to what MS is doing with ECMA and .NET
On Nov 13, 7:38 am, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > Best regards.
> > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi There!
> > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > for Android.
> > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > recognized programming language.
> > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > programmers.
> > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
Yes of course you can choose the language and tools you want to use no doubt, thats why Im telling you, you can run C# on top of the JVM(Java Virtual Machine as the CLR). I know C# is ecma stadard but the mono runtime or framework as winforms etc no. have patent isues I don't trust mono because Microsoft.
Also checking the Andriod SDK it looks that they are using Linux kernel as just the kernel and on top of that some native libraries as OpenGL, a port of the bsd libc, etc but the more important here is the framework on top of that very cleaver idea and the JVM implementation they are using so they are not using even Java standard GUI api's as Swing or J2ME but brings a new way or framework to Java developers table so yes Andriod is very focused in Java and maybe in the future they will implement a way to access by native as C++ but for you I think the way is to run C# on top of the JVM.
regards,
On Nov 13, 9:38 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > Best regards.
> > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi There!
> > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > for Android.
> > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > recognized programming language.
> > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > programmers.
> > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
> Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? > A: Microsoft
> Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for > other OS/hardware architectures? > A: No, the code is not open source
> Does MS claim there are patents in their implementation of .NET/C#? > A: Yes. That means even if you implement your own CLR without looking > at the MS code you could be sued.
> Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? > A: Yes.
> Why is Mono then tolerated? > A: So people can say .NET is cross-platform. Mono will always lag and > be an inferior implementation of .NET than what MS provides.
> Is Java a standard? > A: Well, the Java language and API features are developed in a > completely open way (see JSR). The implementation is completely open > source. In my view, this is superior to what MS is doing with ECMA > and .NET
> On Nov 13, 7:38 am, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi!
> > C# is a ECMA and ISO standard not a Microsoft or mono standard.
> > I'm not sure what patents infrigments and problems you really mean.
> > What really matters is the ECMA standard for me.
> > As far as i know Java isnīt such a standard due to some Sun's > > reservations.
> > I tried both Java and C# and i prefer C# because from my point of view > > it is far much powerful.
> > Ok, this is not necessarily something that you have to agree, but > > that's what i'm talking about.
> > Any developer should develop with it's favourite tools and programming > > language either java,C#, whatever.
> > I really dont care as far as i am able to use my favourite tools, for > > me it is .NET.
> > What is important is at the end to develop plain vanilla full > > functional multiplatform applications.
> > Freedom of choice...
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo Matos
> > On 13 Nov, 12:17, Muchacho <virtualcoder...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > > Best regards.
> > > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi There!
> > > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > > for Android.
> > > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > > recognized programming language.
> > > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > > programmers.
> > > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? A: So far Microsoft proposed and ECMA approved
Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for other OS/hardware architectures? A: So what? Mono is being able to do it for diferent OS's
Why is Mono then tolerated? # Multi-platform. # Based on the ECMA/ISO standards. # Runs ASP.NET and Winforms applications. # Can run .NET, Java, Python and more. # Open Source, Free Software. So you despite open source initiatives now? mono is being develop by the community, work in progress is being made. Much as been achieved in a couple of years(just a few not ten or more like java). I really believe that mono will bring benefit to the IT community.
Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? A: Not relevant for the discussion here. Who cares about Ballmer says? i donīt.
Is Java a standard? Why not ECMA? I think it is important to have an independent organization to regulate standards don't you? What a mess iternet would be if there was no W3C to regulate html,xml,xhtml css, etc standarts. Would we have web 2.0? probably not.
PS: I really think that you should focus on the .NET concept and forget Microsoft as much as the possibility dissociate Java from SUN? How independent is really Java from Sun anyway?
Don't really want to go there because i donīt have nothing against java, i just prefer .NET.
I'm just being honest no heart feelings.
On 13 Nov, 12:46, Augusto <augusto.sellh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? > A: Microsoft
> Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for > other OS/hardware architectures? > A: No, the code is not open source
> Does MS claim there are patents in their implementation of .NET/C#? > A: Yes. That means even if you implement your own CLR without looking > at the MS code you could be sued.
> Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? > A: Yes.
> Why is Mono then tolerated? > A: So people can say .NET is cross-platform. Mono will always lag and > be an inferior implementation of .NET than what MS provides.
> Is Java a standard? > A: Well, the Java language and API features are developed in a > completely open way (see JSR). The implementation is completely open > source. In my view, this is superior to what MS is doing with ECMA > and .NET
> On Nov 13, 7:38 am, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi!
> > C# is a ECMA and ISO standard not a Microsoft or mono standard.
> > I'm not sure what patents infrigments and problems you really mean.
> > What really matters is the ECMA standard for me.
> > As far as i know Java isnīt such a standard due to some Sun's > > reservations.
> > I tried both Java and C# and i prefer C# because from my point of view > > it is far much powerful.
> > Ok, this is not necessarily something that you have to agree, but > > that's what i'm talking about.
> > Any developer should develop with it's favourite tools and programming > > language either java,C#, whatever.
> > I really dont care as far as i am able to use my favourite tools, for > > me it is .NET.
> > What is important is at the end to develop plain vanilla full > > functional multiplatform applications.
> > Freedom of choice...
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo Matos
> > On 13 Nov, 12:17, Muchacho <virtualcoder...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > > Best regards.
> > > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi There!
> > > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > > for Android.
> > > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > > recognized programming language.
> > > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > > programmers.
> > > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
This is what i know for Mono position to Android (non - official).
"Mono developers have a few ideas in mind (Run the code side-by-side; recompiling CIL code to this new VM code to allow C# code to build; Modifying Mono to load the new byte codes for this VM and variations on those).
But at this point there is not enough public information to know what to do.
We believe that Mono will be a good fit and we look forward to the platform becoming more open (as they describe on their FAQ)"
Best Regards
Ricardo Matos
On 13 Nov, 12:53, Muchacho <virtualcoder...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes of course you can choose the language and tools you want to use no > doubt, thats why Im telling you, you can run C# on top of the JVM(Java > Virtual Machine as the CLR). I know C# is ecma stadard but the mono > runtime or framework as winforms etc no. have patent isues I don't > trust mono because Microsoft.
> Also checking the Andriod SDK it looks that they are using Linux > kernel as just the kernel and on top of that some native libraries as > OpenGL, a port of the bsd libc, etc but the more important here is the > framework on top of that very cleaver idea and the JVM implementation > they are using so they are not using even Java standard GUI api's as > Swing or J2ME but brings a new way or framework to Java developers > table so yes Andriod is very focused in Java and maybe in the future > they will implement a way to access by native as C++ but for you I > think the way is to run C# on top of the JVM.
> regards,
> On Nov 13, 9:38 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi!
> > C# is a ECMA and ISO standard not a Microsoft or mono standard.
> > I'm not sure what patents infrigments and problems you really mean.
> > What really matters is the ECMA standard for me.
> > As far as i know Java isnīt such a standard due to some Sun's > > reservations.
> > I tried both Java and C# and i prefer C# because from my point of view > > it is far much powerful.
> > Ok, this is not necessarily something that you have to agree, but > > that's what i'm talking about.
> > Any developer should develop with it's favourite tools and programming > > language either java,C#, whatever.
> > I really dont care as far as i am able to use my favourite tools, for > > me it is .NET.
> > What is important is at the end to develop plain vanilla full > > functional multiplatform applications.
> > Freedom of choice...
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo Matos
> > On 13 Nov, 12:17, Muchacho <virtualcoder...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > > Best regards.
> > > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi There!
> > > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > > for Android.
> > > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > > recognized programming language.
> > > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > > programmers.
> > > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
On Nov 13, 8:15 am, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? > A: So far Microsoft proposed and ECMA approved
There is no process for other companies to propose changes. Just this week, a Java Users Group even proposed a JSR for language changes in Java 1.7, you won't see the equivalent in the .NET world.
> Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for > other OS/hardware architectures? > A: So what? Mono is being able to do it for diferent OS's
In Java you can and you get first class access to the latest implementation instead of having to trail what MS is doing.
> Why is Mono then tolerated? > # Multi-platform. > # Based on the ECMA/ISO standards. > # Runs ASP.NET and Winforms applications. > # Can run .NET, Java, Python and more. > # Open Source, Free Software. > So you despite open source initiatives now? mono is being develop by > the community, work in progress is being made. > Much as been achieved in a couple of years(just a few not ten or more > like java). I really believe that mono will bring benefit to the IT > community.
> Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? > A: Not relevant for the discussion here. Who cares about Ballmer says? > i donīt.
I do. It shows the attitude towards patents that people need to be careful with.
> Is Java a standard? > Why not ECMA? I think it is important to have an independent > organization to regulate standards don't you? > What a mess iternet would be if there was no W3C to regulate > html,xml,xhtml css, etc standarts. > Would we have web 2.0? probably not.
ECMA doesn't cover the interesting bits like WinForms, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, etc. As quoted on the wikipedia entry for this;
"However, this does not apply for the part of the .NET Framework which is not covered by the ECMA/ISO standard, which includes Windows Forms, ADO.NET, and ASP.NET. Patents that Microsoft holds in these areas may deter non-Microsoft implementations of the full framework."
> PS: > I really think that you should focus on the .NET concept and forget > Microsoft as much as the possibility dissociate Java from SUN? > How independent is really Java from Sun anyway?
Very, there are several well supported implementations of JVMs and many companies driving the language features via the JSR (Oracle, IBM, etc) or outside of it (Google in this case).
> Don't really want to go there because i donīt have nothing against > java, i just prefer .NET.
The choice of Java here is a no brainier, more robust VM implementations available, larger dev community, free and multiple dev tools, truly cross platform, etc.
Ecma standardizes the syntax only AFAIK. So, real part (.Net Framework) is still a problem. C# is very very similar to Java, you can get on board very quick. actually Java's learning curve is not as steep as C# (much less code words, or syntax concepts). Java IDE's are more powerful than Visual Studio when it comes to coding IMO. if you want to wait until some hacker will port mono for android, be it. but otherwise i would not expect Google to support it. maybe you should change your perspective a little. Java has come a long way.
On Nov 13, 2007 9:15 AM, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? > A: So far Microsoft proposed and ECMA approved
> Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for > other OS/hardware architectures? > A: So what? Mono is being able to do it for diferent OS's
> Why is Mono then tolerated? > # Multi-platform. > # Based on the ECMA/ISO standards. > # Runs ASP.NET and Winforms applications. > # Can run .NET, Java, Python and more. > # Open Source, Free Software. > So you despite open source initiatives now? mono is being develop by > the community, work in progress is being made. > Much as been achieved in a couple of years(just a few not ten or more > like java). I really believe that mono will bring benefit to the IT > community.
> Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? > A: Not relevant for the discussion here. Who cares about Ballmer says? > i donīt.
> Is Java a standard? > Why not ECMA? I think it is important to have an independent > organization to regulate standards don't you? > What a mess iternet would be if there was no W3C to regulate > html,xml,xhtml css, etc standarts. > Would we have web 2.0? probably not.
> PS: > I really think that you should focus on the .NET concept and forget > Microsoft as much as the possibility dissociate Java from SUN? > How independent is really Java from Sun anyway?
> Don't really want to go there because i donīt have nothing against > java, i just prefer .NET.
> I'm just being honest no heart feelings.
> On 13 Nov, 12:46, Augusto <augusto.sellh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Who drives the features of C#, Microsoft or the community? > > A: Microsoft
> > Can you access the MS implementation of the CLR and retarget it for > > other OS/hardware architectures? > > A: No, the code is not open source
> > Does MS claim there are patents in their implementation of .NET/C#? > > A: Yes. That means even if you implement your own CLR without looking > > at the MS code you could be sued.
> > Didn't Ballmer say Linux infringed on MS patents? > > A: Yes.
> > Why is Mono then tolerated? > > A: So people can say .NET is cross-platform. Mono will always lag and > > be an inferior implementation of .NET than what MS provides.
> > Is Java a standard? > > A: Well, the Java language and API features are developed in a > > completely open way (see JSR). The implementation is completely open > > source. In my view, this is superior to what MS is doing with ECMA > > and .NET
> > On Nov 13, 7:38 am, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > > C# is a ECMA and ISO standard not a Microsoft or mono standard.
> > > I'm not sure what patents infrigments and problems you really mean.
> > > What really matters is the ECMA standard for me.
> > > As far as i know Java isnīt such a standard due to some Sun's > > > reservations.
> > > I tried both Java and C# and i prefer C# because from my point of view > > > it is far much powerful.
> > > Ok, this is not necessarily something that you have to agree, but > > > that's what i'm talking about.
> > > Any developer should develop with it's favourite tools and programming > > > language either java,C#, whatever.
> > > I really dont care as far as i am able to use my favourite tools, for > > > me it is .NET.
> > > What is important is at the end to develop plain vanilla full > > > functional multiplatform applications.
> > > Freedom of choice...
> > > Cheers
> > > Ricardo Matos
> > > On 13 Nov, 12:17, Muchacho <virtualcoder...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > We don't need a framework plagued by patents infrigments and problems > > > > as mono have. Also c# and mono is dependent on Microsft. If Microsoft > > > > say C# need closures, Mono C# have to include closures and stay in > > > > sync with what Microsoft does. If mono do by it self and doesnt follow > > > > Microsoft standard mono doesnt bring any value to the IT. But Java is > > > > a different story, Now Java is OpenSource is a standard used by 5 > > > > million developers worldwide what more you can ask?.
> > > > Andriod doesn't need nothing about M$, mono or C#. Also check > > > > Microsoft is a direct competitor to Google and Microshaft is very > > > > aggrisive so take care Google not to fall in the devil empire of M$.
> > > > Best regards.
> > > > On Nov 13, 8:55 pm, Ricardo Matos <matosdot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi There!
> > > > > i think it makes sense to think in the near future the mono team > > > > > (http://www.mono-project.com) will present us with mono .NET framework > > > > > for Android.
> > > > > They have done it to Maestro (Nokia Linux based OS), and many other > > > > > Linux OS's (SUSE, Red Hat, you name it...).
> > > > > I think it would also make sense also to have a ECMA and ISO standard > > > > > recognized programming language.
> > > > > I think it is very limited to say or force developers to use only > > > > > Java. (I donīt have nothing against JAVA language)
> > > > > The .NET framework either Microsoft or Mono's supports many languages > > > > > and that is really an advantage and allows to attract many > > > > > programmers.
> > > > > (VB.NET, C#, Phyton,...)
> > > > > Android is Open source great, let's open variety too.
this is non-official response of mono to Android release:
"Mono developers have a few ideas in mind (Run the code side-by-side; recompiling CIL code to this new VM code to allow C# code to build; Modifying Mono to load the new byte codes for this VM and variations on those).
But at this point there is not enough public information to know what to do.
> Would the installation of mono on top of Android be to heavy for a > mobile device affecting it's performance?
We believe that Mono will be a good fit and we look forward to the platform becoming more open (as they describe on their FAQ)"
