Do the terms and conditions discourage team submissions?
2 views
Skip to first unread message
Peli
Jan 4, 2008, 9:55:42 AM1/4/08
to Android Challenge
Hi,
as Shane Isbell has pointed out (
http://www.jroller.com/random7/entry/android_challenge_terms_and_conditions
), the terms and conditions may lead to a tax mess, since Google will
not pay to each member of a team separately, but only to the team
captain, who may have to distribute and transfer money around the
globe.
On the other hand, in section 3 of the terms and conditions (
http://code.google.com/android/adc-submit/tandc.html ) : "if one
member of the team does not comply with these Terms or is
disqualified, the team as a whole will be disqualified."
and further in section 7i:
"If a team or Business Entity is selected as a potential Qualifying
Entry, all members of the team or a person with the authority to bind
the Business Entity, must agree to the terms of these agreements and
must identify the individual that is to receive the Qualifying Grant.
Failure to comply with this requirement or to submit any of these
documents within the time period specified within the documents may
mean that the Participant and team both have forfeited the applicable
grant and Google may, in its sole discretion, select an alternative
Participant to receive the grant."
This means one puts a lot of risk to the project by naming all team
members. If any of the team members is not reachable during the
critical time frame of grant distribution (due to illness, travel, or
whatever), the team as a whole will be disqualified.
So one has all disadvantages by naming all members of a team, but no
advantages (no security...) as the distribution of the money is in
sole responsibility of the team captain.
In this case, it seems to make sense to submit all team entries as
individual developer entries in order not to increase the risk for the
team, without loosing any securities for each individual member (since
there are none).
(The only advantage of submitting team member names as far as I can
see is the honor that those are officially registered by Google as
being part of the winning team.. but is this worth the risk that the
whole project may be disqualified if some other team member who may be
living on the other side of the globe somehow gets disqualified by
missing a deadline?)
Or am I missing something or seeing this wrong? At least for larger
groups I don't see any sense or advantage in naming each team member
separately...
Could not naming team members that contributed to the project lead to
disqualification even if all team members agreed internally not to be
named officially to Google, but only on the official project's
homepage, and agreed to separate the award internally (as they have to
anyway)?
Peli
PS: A final question on section 3: "In addition, once a team has
registered, the team may not add, remove, or substitute member or
otherwise change the composition of the team for the duration of the
Challenge."
So I see that a team may not recruit more members after the first
round.
But does this also include resubmissions prior to March 3? This would
discourage early submission of a partial application ('to be on the
safe side'), because after initial registration, team members can not
be changed?
as Shane Isbell has pointed out (
http://www.jroller.com/random7/entry/android_challenge_terms_and_conditions
), the terms and conditions may lead to a tax mess, since Google will
not pay to each member of a team separately, but only to the team
captain, who may have to distribute and transfer money around the
globe.
On the other hand, in section 3 of the terms and conditions (
http://code.google.com/android/adc-submit/tandc.html ) : "if one
member of the team does not comply with these Terms or is
disqualified, the team as a whole will be disqualified."
and further in section 7i:
"If a team or Business Entity is selected as a potential Qualifying
Entry, all members of the team or a person with the authority to bind
the Business Entity, must agree to the terms of these agreements and
must identify the individual that is to receive the Qualifying Grant.
Failure to comply with this requirement or to submit any of these
documents within the time period specified within the documents may
mean that the Participant and team both have forfeited the applicable
grant and Google may, in its sole discretion, select an alternative
Participant to receive the grant."
This means one puts a lot of risk to the project by naming all team
members. If any of the team members is not reachable during the
critical time frame of grant distribution (due to illness, travel, or
whatever), the team as a whole will be disqualified.
So one has all disadvantages by naming all members of a team, but no
advantages (no security...) as the distribution of the money is in
sole responsibility of the team captain.
In this case, it seems to make sense to submit all team entries as
individual developer entries in order not to increase the risk for the
team, without loosing any securities for each individual member (since
there are none).
(The only advantage of submitting team member names as far as I can
see is the honor that those are officially registered by Google as
being part of the winning team.. but is this worth the risk that the
whole project may be disqualified if some other team member who may be
living on the other side of the globe somehow gets disqualified by
missing a deadline?)
Or am I missing something or seeing this wrong? At least for larger
groups I don't see any sense or advantage in naming each team member
separately...
Could not naming team members that contributed to the project lead to
disqualification even if all team members agreed internally not to be
named officially to Google, but only on the official project's
homepage, and agreed to separate the award internally (as they have to
anyway)?
Peli
PS: A final question on section 3: "In addition, once a team has
registered, the team may not add, remove, or substitute member or
otherwise change the composition of the team for the duration of the
Challenge."
So I see that a team may not recruit more members after the first
round.
But does this also include resubmissions prior to March 3? This would
discourage early submission of a partial application ('to be on the
safe side'), because after initial registration, team members can not
be changed?
Shane Isbell
Jan 4, 2008, 12:52:24 PM1/4/08
to Android Challenge
It sounds as though after the submission deadline, you can't add
members participating in the contest. This wouldn't preclude having
additional developers; it just means that they wouldn't be eligible
for the prize money. Since you can do as you wish with the prize
money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize. The fraudulent case includes
the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
developers based on the prize money. At least this is how I would read
it.
To me, this seems to strike a blow at the openintent idea, as it means
only those developers who are registered at the time of submission
would be eligible for the first round of prizes. You have already
structured the agreement as to how all the money is to be distributed
so you don't have any wiggle room for compensating post submission
developers on the project, even in if they do significant work and out
of good will, you want to compensate them, unless of course, you pay
them out of your own cut.
However, you cut it, I don't see this as being good for open source
projects. Maybe we should stop worrying about the money and all these
rules and get back to basics. Build something open source that the
android community wants, do what is best for your project and prize
money or not, compete with the big players.
Shane
> as Shane Isbell has pointed out (http://www.jroller.com/random7/entry/android_challenge_terms_and_cond...
members participating in the contest. This wouldn't preclude having
additional developers; it just means that they wouldn't be eligible
for the prize money. Since you can do as you wish with the prize
money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize. The fraudulent case includes
the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
developers based on the prize money. At least this is how I would read
it.
To me, this seems to strike a blow at the openintent idea, as it means
only those developers who are registered at the time of submission
would be eligible for the first round of prizes. You have already
structured the agreement as to how all the money is to be distributed
so you don't have any wiggle room for compensating post submission
developers on the project, even in if they do significant work and out
of good will, you want to compensate them, unless of course, you pay
them out of your own cut.
However, you cut it, I don't see this as being good for open source
projects. Maybe we should stop worrying about the money and all these
rules and get back to basics. Build something open source that the
android community wants, do what is best for your project and prize
money or not, compete with the big players.
Shane
> as Shane Isbell has pointed out (http://www.jroller.com/random7/entry/android_challenge_terms_and_cond...
> ), the terms and conditions may lead to a tax mess, since Google will
> not pay to each member of a team separately, but only to the team
> captain, who may have to distribute and transfer money around the
> globe.
>
> On the other hand, in section 3 of the terms and conditions (http://code.google.com/android/adc-submit/tandc.html) : "if one
> not pay to each member of a team separately, but only to the team
> captain, who may have to distribute and transfer money around the
> globe.
>
Peli
Jan 4, 2008, 2:11:50 PM1/4/08
to Android Challenge
Hi Shane,
Thank you for your insightful reply. I really want to be careful here
in order not to be disqualified by formalities.
> Since you can do as you wish with the prize
> money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
> you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
> that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
> fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize.
This is probably a fine line and would probably strike most of the
openintents set up. I just wonder, if we were a "business entity"
there would only be one person submitting on behalf of the whole
company. Why do all these restrictions not apply to the company, and
why is life made especially hard for an open group of developers?
Could an international "openintents club" form such a "legal entity",
so that we could submit as business? (Not that I really want to take
that effort upon me...).
> The fraudulent case includes
> the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
> developers based on the prize money.
This strikes all the ideas that we have set up in
http://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
really hard.
I guess this means that the last line of that page applies, and "the
Terms and Conditions force us to" change our rules.
Luckily, so far most people who have contributed implementable ideas
to openintents are also interested in developing, so we could (for the
competition) take out all the "ideas" part and "sharing" part and cut
the team down to the core developers' team and register only those
serious developers who are interested in receiving the prize money.
On the other hand, it means we could potentially open the openintents
project as an open source project to people excluded from the
competition (Italians, Quebec, OHA and affiliated members, kids, ...)
if we state clearly that they will not receive any prize money for
their contribution that they give away under the Apache2 license. As
long as they provide open source patches to an open source project,
what could go wrong here?
The core team of OpenIntents will submit original work that draws on
some other open source work, but so will many other submitters of the
competition! (whenever you rely on open Java classes, the same
criticism could apply!)
> However, you cut it, I don't see this as being good for open source
> projects. Maybe we should stop worrying about the money and all these
> rules and get back to basics. Build something open source that the
> android community wants, do what is best for your project and prize
> money or not, compete with the big players.
Ultimately, yes. Definitely I'll support OpenIntents regardless of the
outcome of the competition, since this will be the functionality that
I want to have on my phone.
Of course it would be nice to get some extra "pocket money" on the
way, but thinking long-term, a cool mobile phone that does exactly
what I want it to do is worth much more :-)
In any case, if some official Google member (Dan Morrill?) could have
a look at our project terms page
http://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
and let us know which parts we should rather drop in order to comply
with the Terms & Conditions, I would be very grateful.
Peli
Thank you for your insightful reply. I really want to be careful here
in order not to be disqualified by formalities.
> Since you can do as you wish with the prize
> money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
> you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
> that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
> fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize.
openintents set up. I just wonder, if we were a "business entity"
there would only be one person submitting on behalf of the whole
company. Why do all these restrictions not apply to the company, and
why is life made especially hard for an open group of developers?
Could an international "openintents club" form such a "legal entity",
so that we could submit as business? (Not that I really want to take
that effort upon me...).
> The fraudulent case includes
> the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
> developers based on the prize money.
http://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
really hard.
I guess this means that the last line of that page applies, and "the
Terms and Conditions force us to" change our rules.
Luckily, so far most people who have contributed implementable ideas
to openintents are also interested in developing, so we could (for the
competition) take out all the "ideas" part and "sharing" part and cut
the team down to the core developers' team and register only those
serious developers who are interested in receiving the prize money.
On the other hand, it means we could potentially open the openintents
project as an open source project to people excluded from the
competition (Italians, Quebec, OHA and affiliated members, kids, ...)
if we state clearly that they will not receive any prize money for
their contribution that they give away under the Apache2 license. As
long as they provide open source patches to an open source project,
what could go wrong here?
The core team of OpenIntents will submit original work that draws on
some other open source work, but so will many other submitters of the
competition! (whenever you rely on open Java classes, the same
criticism could apply!)
> However, you cut it, I don't see this as being good for open source
> projects. Maybe we should stop worrying about the money and all these
> rules and get back to basics. Build something open source that the
> android community wants, do what is best for your project and prize
> money or not, compete with the big players.
outcome of the competition, since this will be the functionality that
I want to have on my phone.
Of course it would be nice to get some extra "pocket money" on the
way, but thinking long-term, a cool mobile phone that does exactly
what I want it to do is worth much more :-)
In any case, if some official Google member (Dan Morrill?) could have
a look at our project terms page
http://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
and let us know which parts we should rather drop in order to comply
with the Terms & Conditions, I would be very grateful.
Peli
Chris
Jan 4, 2008, 3:02:57 PM1/4/08
to Android Challenge
Why not just do an online do-it-yourself LLC for a couple hundred
bucks. An LLC makes the kind of payout Open Intents needs to do very
easy.
On Jan 4, 11:11 am, Peli <peli0...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Shane,
>
> Thank you for your insightful reply. I really want to be careful here
> in order not to be disqualified by formalities.
>
> > Since you can do as you wish with the prize
> > money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
> > you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
> > that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
> > fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize.
>
> This is probably a fine line and would probably strike most of the
> openintents set up. I just wonder, if we were a "business entity"
> there would only be one person submitting on behalf of the whole
> company. Why do all these restrictions not apply to the company, and
> why is life made especially hard for an open group of developers?
>
> Could an international "openintents club" form such a "legal entity",
> so that we could submit as business? (Not that I really want to take
> that effort upon me...).
>
> > The fraudulent case includes
> > the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
> > developers based on the prize money.
>
> This strikes all the ideas that we have set up inhttp://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
> a look at our project terms pagehttp://code.google.com/p/openintents/wiki/WeShareThePrize
bucks. An LLC makes the kind of payout Open Intents needs to do very
easy.
On Jan 4, 11:11 am, Peli <peli0...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Shane,
>
> Thank you for your insightful reply. I really want to be careful here
> in order not to be disqualified by formalities.
>
> > Since you can do as you wish with the prize
> > money, I would expect that you could compensate those developers as
> > you see fit, but if you engage in some sort of contract or promise
> > that they will get the prize money for work, this could be considered
> > fraudulent and a forfeiture of the prize.
>
> This is probably a fine line and would probably strike most of the
> openintents set up. I just wonder, if we were a "business entity"
> there would only be one person submitting on behalf of the whole
> company. Why do all these restrictions not apply to the company, and
> why is life made especially hard for an open group of developers?
>
> Could an international "openintents club" form such a "legal entity",
> so that we could submit as business? (Not that I really want to take
> that effort upon me...).
>
> > The fraudulent case includes
> > the case where only one developer registers but agrees to pay other
> > developers based on the prize money.
>
Peli
Jan 4, 2008, 5:22:34 PM1/4/08
to Android Challenge
I'm living in Germany, so US LLCs won't apply for me. There is
something similar here (GmbH), but founding this myself could probably
cost my current job (as I am restricted by state rules not to accept
other jobs during a certain period of time).
If a developer in the US who has serious interests in OpenIntents
(i.e. contributes a large junk of useful code) wanted to found a LLC,
I'd be all for it, but so far, founding a company seems so much beyond
what my initial purpose was (that is doing some open source coding
during my free-time, having some fun, and a small possibility on being
rewarded for the work, ...)
Peli
something similar here (GmbH), but founding this myself could probably
cost my current job (as I am restricted by state rules not to accept
other jobs during a certain period of time).
If a developer in the US who has serious interests in OpenIntents
(i.e. contributes a large junk of useful code) wanted to found a LLC,
I'd be all for it, but so far, founding a company seems so much beyond
what my initial purpose was (that is doing some open source coding
during my free-time, having some fun, and a small possibility on being
rewarded for the work, ...)
Peli
YA
Jan 5, 2008, 6:45:52 AM1/5/08
to Android Challenge
Peli:
unless German law prevents you to own interest in a company - which it
most likely cannot - you can participate in a LLC. Best luck,
YA
unless German law prevents you to own interest in a company - which it
most likely cannot - you can participate in a LLC. Best luck,
YA
Peli
Jan 5, 2008, 6:58:42 AM1/5/08
to Android Challenge
Can I found a US LLC as a foreigner living in Germany?
Peli
Peli
YA
Jan 29, 2008, 7:45:24 AM1/29/08
to Android Challenge
Sure, why not.
DJ~
Jan 30, 2008, 2:06:55 PM1/30/08
to Android Challenge
I'm not 100% sure how it might work, but you may find the tax
situation even more difficult with a foreign based company. If you
have a trustworthy american member of your team, you could ask them to
be the one to setup the company -- this might simplify things a bit.
I've also been slightly anxiously wondering which of the team/business/
individual entry conditions might be best for my situation. I've been
imagining that if I enter, I'm going to have to incorporate a new
entity, in order to have the flexibility of bringing on people on
limited contracts -- but start a new business entity right where I'm
from, Australia, costs a bit of money and trouble. And, if we don't
win anything, it's something that I might not need in the immediate
term. In other words, it's wasted money if we don't win, and yet,
presumedly, to be compliant with the T&C's it has to be done in
advance.
I shouldn't complain though. Whatever the hassle, it's still a great
opportunity. Your situation, Peli, might be more difficult to resolve,
given the nature of open source teams. However, it seems to me that
the idea of entering as a team is there more or less in order to suit
open source teams like yours. That is, we might hope that google would
do right by you, especially since you've laid out your intentions so
clearly.
situation even more difficult with a foreign based company. If you
have a trustworthy american member of your team, you could ask them to
be the one to setup the company -- this might simplify things a bit.
I've also been slightly anxiously wondering which of the team/business/
individual entry conditions might be best for my situation. I've been
imagining that if I enter, I'm going to have to incorporate a new
entity, in order to have the flexibility of bringing on people on
limited contracts -- but start a new business entity right where I'm
from, Australia, costs a bit of money and trouble. And, if we don't
win anything, it's something that I might not need in the immediate
term. In other words, it's wasted money if we don't win, and yet,
presumedly, to be compliant with the T&C's it has to be done in
advance.
I shouldn't complain though. Whatever the hassle, it's still a great
opportunity. Your situation, Peli, might be more difficult to resolve,
given the nature of open source teams. However, it seems to me that
the idea of entering as a team is there more or less in order to suit
open source teams like yours. That is, we might hope that google would
do right by you, especially since you've laid out your intentions so
clearly.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages