Dear Alan
I think this board is a wonderful idea :-)
Had a visitor at the barn today that got me thinking...I was showing
him and his family around and he asked why I didn't have any
stallions. I explained that most of my horses are show horses, etc. He
comes from a Quarter Horse/Morgan background where stallions are
heavily shown. As a breed why do you think we have so few stallions
showing comparable to other breeds and in turn so few classes
available. In this same vein, why do you think/feel we have such
little emphasis on halter classes in comparison to other breeds( where
stallions usually heavily compete).
I think that this is an excellent point. As someone who has several
stallions who are ridden, and find it sad that they cannot compete as
the Arabian, Morgan, and Quarterhorses do in so many divisions-
including the country pleasure divisions. The fact that our stallions
are expected to breathe fire when publicly displayed is an antiquated
presentation in this world. Ed Teater tells a great story about riding
WGC CH Wing Commander bareback up to the breeding shed, however, that
isn't the manner in which we have shared our wonderful horses with the
public, and I believe we do them a huge disservice by NOT allowing
them to seem approachable. What can be done to help dispel the myths?
Can we open more divisions up to our stallions?
On Nov 24, 5:28 pm, Christy <pinehavenstab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Alan
> I think this board is a wonderful idea :-)
> Had a visitor at the barn today that got me thinking...I was showing
> him and his family around and he asked why I didn't have any
> stallions. I explained that most of my horses are show horses, etc. He
> comes from a Quarter Horse/Morgan background where stallions are
> heavily shown. As a breed why do you think we have so few stallions
> showing comparable to other breeds and in turn so few classes
> available. In this same vein, why do you think/feel we have such
> little emphasis on halter classes in comparison to other breeds( where
> stallions usually heavily compete).
I also wonder if more colts are gelded and trained and shown rather than leave them in tact. When I first started riding ASBs, having grown up with Arabians myself, I asked a similar question and was told they were more "valuable" as a gelded show horse than as an intact male showing or not showing. Interesting.
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Alan---I also think the board is a wonderful idea.-------about the
stallion questions. before I owned saddlebreds I had Morgans, and
agree we do not show stallions enough other than 5 gaited. But, I am
concerned that we also do not have enough out crosses in our stallions
breeding. They all seem to go back to the same ancesters. I am very
new and do have a couple of mares and show horses. I think the South
African introduction is good--wish I knew more about them.
On Nov 24, 5:28 pm, Christy <pinehavenstab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Alan
> I think this board is a wonderful idea :-)
> Had a visitor at the barn today that got me thinking...I was showing
> him and his family around and he asked why I didn't have any
> stallions. I explained that most of my horses are show horses, etc. He
> comes from a Quarter Horse/Morgan background where stallions are
> heavily shown. As a breed why do you think we have so few stallions
> showing comparable to other breeds and in turn so few classes
> available. In this same vein, why do you think/feel we have such
> little emphasis on halter classes in comparison to other breeds( where
> stallions usually heavily compete).
Many breeds make the mistake of not gelding horses that really SHOULD
be gelded. If the Pleasure divisions allowed stallions, we would see
more horses left entire, and I think that would result in more
inferior breeding instead of preserving the rare blood.
I think that our breed has a nice balance of stallions available.
Yes, some are so prolific and heavily bred that it seems like the gene
pool is in danger, but there are a lot of really nice stallions out
there that aren't advertised and you have to seek them out.
I agree we should be cautious which horses we keep as stallions and
even more so which horses we bred, my question was more to the angle
of why don't our stallions compete? More used too....thinking of the
top breeding horses like Santana, Wing Commander, Yorktown......
The money is in amateur (Ladies) & juvenile divisions. People are
willing to buy more expensive horses they can ride/show themselves,
rather than a horse for their trainer to show. Also, stallions can
take more time to develop (time is money). They can be more difficult
to train, and require a more experienced handler. Also, there is a
much smaller market willing to purchase and/or show a stallion. Youth/
Ladies can't show a stallion. All valid reasons to cut a stud colt,
and why many people say geldings are "worth more".
One good option to help encourage owners to keep stallions intact and
promote showing stallions would be to put up BIG money for 2 and/or
3yo stallion stakes classes (not pleasure but walk-trot, 5gaited etc)
Something that will turn heads. $100,000 up for grabs could encourage
people to show and not geld their stock until they are a little bit
older. In addition, you would have a way of "proving" young
stallions. Ultimately this could improve your breeding stock options.
Yes, most horses will be gelded after they go for the money, but if
our industry gets just one top horse (Imperator, etc.) the ENTIRE
industry gains.
On Dec 3, 7:16 pm, Christy <pinehavenstab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I agree we should be cautious which horses we keep as stallions and
> even more so which horses we bred, my question was more to the angle
> of why don't our stallions compete? More used too....thinking of the
> top breeding horses like Santana, Wing Commander, Yorktown......
I totally agree with nicole. We just bought a gelding so I can show in
the driving classes. We have 2 with trainer and got tired of him
showing. I understand in these divisions we need him and he does a
good job. But, I wanted to show and bought a gelding. Geldings are
more valuable---but---it would be nice to see more stallions showing
espically if you have a couple of mares you breed each year.
On Dec 4, 5:08 pm, nicole_wettstein <nicole_wettst...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> The money is in amateur (Ladies) & juvenile divisions. People are
> willing to buy more expensive horses they can ride/show themselves,
> rather than a horse for their trainer to show. Also, stallions can
> take more time to develop (time is money). They can be more difficult
> to train, and require a more experienced handler. Also, there is a
> much smaller market willing to purchase and/or show a stallion. Youth/
> Ladies can't show a stallion. All valid reasons to cut a stud colt,
> and why many people say geldings are "worth more".
> One good option to help encourage owners to keep stallions intact and
> promote showing stallions would be to put up BIG money for 2 and/or
> 3yo stallion stakes classes (not pleasure but walk-trot, 5gaited etc)
> Something that will turn heads. $100,000 up for grabs could encourage
> people to show and not geld their stock until they are a little bit
> older. In addition, you would have a way of "proving" young
> stallions. Ultimately this could improve your breeding stock options.
> Yes, most horses will be gelded after they go for the money, but if
> our industry gets just one top horse (Imperator, etc.) the ENTIRE
> industry gains.
> On Dec 3, 7:16 pm, Christy <pinehavenstab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I agree we should be cautious which horses we keep as stallions and
> > even more so which horses we bred, my question was more to the angle
> > of why don't our stallions compete? More used too....thinking of the
> > top breeding horses like Santana, Wing Commander, Yorktown......- Hide quoted text -
Our breed has major problems with the publics perception. The other
warmblood breeds- European in particular- have stallions competing
routinely, and shown by amateurs. These horses compete from the lower,
to the highest levels, and breed mares along the way. For our breed,
when shown in the traditional show ring divisions, this is almost
impossible, due to the expectations regarding the headset of the
horses is the show ring. How many Call Me Ringo's are there? Not many!
Morgans, Arabians and Quarterhorses- along with the aforementioned
warmbloods, are shown as stallions in divisions where amateurs can
compete them. Why not our breed? Wouldn't offering the option of
showing high quality stallions, competing in a variety of divisions,
offer more outlets for our horses to excell, and more viable buyers?
On Dec 5, 11:29 am, the whip <joseph.woep...@fnrm.com> wrote:
> I totally agree with nicole. We just bought a gelding so I can show in
> the driving classes. We have 2 with trainer and got tired of him
> showing. I understand in these divisions we need him and he does a
> good job. But, I wanted to show and bought a gelding. Geldings are
> more valuable---but---it would be nice to see more stallions showing
> espically if you have a couple of mares you breed each year.
> On Dec 4, 5:08 pm, nicole_wettstein <nicole_wettst...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Follow the money.
> > The money is in amateur (Ladies) & juvenile divisions. People are
> > willing to buy more expensive horses they can ride/show themselves,
> > rather than a horse for their trainer to show. Also, stallions can
> > take more time to develop (time is money). They can be more difficult
> > to train, and require a more experienced handler. Also, there is a
> > much smaller market willing to purchase and/or show a stallion. Youth/
> > Ladies can't show a stallion. All valid reasons to cut a stud colt,
> > and why many people say geldings are "worth more".
> > One good option to help encourage owners to keep stallions intact and
> > promote showing stallions would be to put up BIG money for 2 and/or
> > 3yo stallion stakes classes (not pleasure but walk-trot, 5gaited etc)
> > Something that will turn heads. $100,000 up for grabs could encourage
> > people to show and not geld their stock until they are a little bit
> > older. In addition, you would have a way of "proving" young
> > stallions. Ultimately this could improve your breeding stock options.
> > Yes, most horses will be gelded after they go for the money, but if
> > our industry gets just one top horse (Imperator, etc.) the ENTIRE
> > industry gains.
> > On Dec 3, 7:16 pm, Christy <pinehavenstab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I agree we should be cautious which horses we keep as stallions and
> > > even more so which horses we bred, my question was more to the angle
> > > of why don't our stallions compete? More used too....thinking of the
> > > top breeding horses like Santana, Wing Commander, Yorktown......- Hide quoted text -
Gothic Revival and Ms. Adler are an excellent example of a high
quality stallion showing in the Amateur division. The option is
already in place. However, geldings will forever be a more consistent
and suitable mount for amateurs to show, thus making them more
marketable and "worth more".
On Dec 5, 2:53 pm, Borealis <bryndewinesf...@aol.com> wrote:
> Our breed has major problems with the publics perception. The other
> warmblood breeds- European in particular- have stallions competing
> routinely, and shown by amateurs. These horses compete from the lower,
> to the highest levels, and breed mares along the way. For our breed,
> when shown in the traditional show ring divisions, this is almost
> impossible, due to the expectations regarding the headset of the
> horses is the show ring. How many Call Me Ringo's are there? Not many!
> Morgans, Arabians and Quarterhorses- along with the aforementioned
> warmbloods, are shown as stallions in divisions where amateurs can
> compete them. Why not our breed? Wouldn't offering the option of
> showing high quality stallions, competing in a variety of divisions,
> offer more outlets for our horses to excell, and more viable buyers?
However, you missed my point entirely. We aren't thinking outside of
the traditional show ring with either of these studs. We aren't
thinking outside of the traditional show ring with our mares and
geldings, either. Consequently, when a horse doesn't fit the current
show ring paradigm, not only are they gelded, but the show ring
trainers of American Saddlebreds- who control the future of these
horses, for the most part- have no option for them, other than to call
the usual outlets, who then sell them to the largest secondary market
for our horses- the Amish. This is not a sound long term strategy. We
need to develop a vibrant secondary market for these horses that
supports the breeders efforts. That market should include the sport
horse disciplines, where amateurs show stallions routinely.
In essence, my point is that the comments you have made demonstrate
ONLY the ability to see a horse be useful- or not- in the show horse
model, which is relatively small. We need to look at the larger world,
and those markets, to grow our breed, and make it successful.
On Dec 7, 7:18 am, nicole_wettstein <nicole_wettst...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Gothic Revival and Ms. Adler are an excellent example of a high
> quality stallion showing in the Amateur division. The option is
> already in place. However, geldings will forever be a more consistent
> and suitable mount for amateurs to show, thus making them more
> marketable and "worth more".
> On Dec 5, 2:53 pm, Borealis <bryndewinesf...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Our breed has major problems with the publics perception. The other
> > warmblood breeds- European in particular- have stallions competing
> > routinely, and shown by amateurs. These horses compete from the lower,
> > to the highest levels, and breed mares along the way. For our breed,
> > when shown in the traditional show ring divisions, this is almost
> > impossible, due to the expectations regarding the headset of the
> > horses is the show ring. How many Call Me Ringo's are there? Not many!
> > Morgans, Arabians and Quarterhorses- along with the aforementioned
> > warmbloods, are shown as stallions in divisions where amateurs can
> > compete them. Why not our breed? Wouldn't offering the option of
> > showing high quality stallions, competing in a variety of divisions,
> > offer more outlets for our horses to excell, and more viable buyers?- Hide quoted text -
I think it will always get down to return on investment. I know of a darling young horse that has yet to scratch the surface of her potential in several of the sport disciplines whose owner can't even give her away, let alone break even. I suppose it gets down to time and people that can afford to make a point with their stock.
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I think Borealis has a good point. If you can encourage people to
keep their young stock as stallions, by putting up money or any other
means, then there will also be many more available options for sport
horse individuals to choose from as well. Not all of the horses will
win the 2 or 3 year old class stallion classes (I mentioned in
previous post), but they will all still be stallions. If you are
interested in a stallion prospect for sporthorses, some of the other
stallions in the class may be more suitable for that purpose. Being
able to find one great sporthorse stallion from this group could open
giant doors for your goals as well.
Both sides of the coin should work together on this. Once, it has
been decided what their job will be, show stallion, sport horse
stallion, show/sporthorse gelding... then go ahead and castrate what
is necessary.
And just to clarify, I am NOT a supporter of breeding for the sake of
breeding. This can be very detrimental. BUT I am a supporter of wise
choices, that will benefit the majority. The great Harry Callahan is
a son of Supreme Heir and out of a daughter of The New York Times,
both stallions have also sired great show stock as well, but he is
unfortunately a gelding, unable to pass along his outstanding
acheivements.
Concerning the secondairy market: Right on! There should be a strong
secondairy market to the High-end show ring. There is a massive hole
between the $100,000 show horse and the $1,000 amish horse. If people
would like to use these horses to create a sporthorse market. Great,
the more jobs, the more valuable/respected the mid priced horse. I
would like to see more effort put into reviving the AOT Saddlebred.
Creating more shows (in & outside of kentucky) for these horses,
making the horse more 'acceptable'/ecomonic to show by the amatuer. In
otherwords, finding a way create a place for the "at home" show
horse. There is a triving market for these types of QH/Paints etc.
They may not win at a breed show but they can win and be successful on
a regional circuit. Why not the saddlebred as well? This is how I
started showing, at a regional level with a QH that was not quality
enough for a QH show. I love it.
