Virtual Zine Fest
bob
My original intention for the DVD I'm completing (Philly Zine Fest
2004) was to have a "virtual" Zine Fest experience. You know, a
first-person camera view of the fest "trading" floor, first-person
interviews/discussions with various zinesters, filming of all of the
workshops and even interactive DVD activities, etc. The actual video
is far from that grand vision, sadly, but something I'm still proud
of.
But, then I got to thinking, why couldn't something like that be
produced on the web? Not just a site with links to various zinester
pages, but an all-in-one web site. It would include not only the
trading/e-commerce that we've all come to expect when visiting a
distro or zine site, but also streaming video or audio of zinesters
and poets reading short works. It could include DIY projects and
resources, and the ubiquitous message boards for people to
communicate.
The obvious hurdle in my mind would be the cost of such a venture –
sure streaming audio and video is becoming more common, but it ain't
cheap! The server costs would be considerable if you "did it right".
Would anyone be willing to pay a subscription for access to such a web
site? Say $10 to $15 per year?
Just thinking out loud…
Dan
> Would anyone be willing to pay a subscription for access to such a web
> site? Say $10 to $15 per year?
Hmmmm... you'd have to make it pretty damn exciting. Most zine fests I've
been to are fairly boring, save for a couple lively panels. Don't get me
wrong, I love to chat with fellow publishers and zine readers, but they
are generally pretty low-key. -dan
bob
>
> Hmmmm... you'd have to make it pretty damn exciting. Most zine fests I've
> been to are fairly boring, save for a couple lively panels. Don't get me
> wrong, I love to chat with fellow publishers and zine readers, but they
> are generally pretty low-key. -dan
What do you determine as an excitement/cost balance? People pay $40+ a
month for cable television, though they probably watch the same 5
channels. And even then the shows are so-so. How exciting is that?
People also pay $8+ a ticket for a 2-hour movie. How many movies have
you seen lately that could be called "exciting"? (Though, I admit that
"The Incredibles" was a pretty cool movie..., so there's one).
It's amazing what we (myself included) as "indy people" choose to
spend our money on. We'll fork over $50+ bucks a month for
entertainment (cable, movies, CDs, etc.), but we balk if a zine is
over $2. Any strong industry/culture knows that the bedrock of
sustainable growth is re-investment in itself.
But, I guess if someone willing to spend at least a half-hour, every
other day on a message board about zines still has doubts about the
attraction of a virtual zine fest web site, it probably isn't a good
idea.
AlphaTrionTJW
idea, the thing is that the zine scene, and the people who would have a
die-hard/ongoing interest in it I'm failry sure wouldn't be willing to pay a
subscription for a website that's essentially a collection of information
they may already have.
bob
Very valid point,
I suppose much of the information/contacts would be duplicated on the
site, and I was hoping that the extra features would be the
"worthwhile" factor: recordings (either audio or video) of
zinesters/poets reading their stuff (as it seems that the litmus test
for a "real" writer is if he/she has done a reading in some smoky bar
somewhere – or is that just in NY and Philly); and a "zine floor"
where would-be distros or zinesters, wanting to sell their stuff
online, but don't have the time/skill to set up their own e-commerce
area, could just sign-up and use a web template to build one.
Agreeably, this notion is far-fetched with the microscopic pocketbook
that zinedom collectively shares, but then again, I did preface my
opening statement that I was just thinking out-loud. I suppose I'm
just one of those dreamers who openly admits that he wishes zineing
would eventually morph into a life-style-sustaining practice, instead
of an F-ed up, partly-consuming hobby.
AlphaTrionTJW
ease of access for information ~shrug~ makes such endeavours more a labor of
love than anything. Still it doesn't invalidate the basic idea.
"I suppose I'm just one of those dreamers who openly admits that he wishes
zineing would eventually morph into a life-style-sustaining practice,
instead of an F-ed up, partly-consuming hobby."
You, my friend, are not the only one. Seems like more and more each day
there is little less in terms of true underground and indie writing out
there; even less of the truly reveloutionary and amazing stuff. The curse
of the web, for $9.95 a month and a Wal-Mart computer anyone can have a
website or a e-zine and the flood of mediocority (sp) is drowning out the
truly great and noble work, while creating a generation that is further and
further removed from the roots of the community.
Sorry, my interospective moment for the day...
I've been trying to launch of print zine for over 18 months now, but it
looks like I'll be splitting the projec tup into a ~shudder~ blogish sort of
socion political though e-zine and possibly and smaller (by a large scale)
retroscifish,early punk/metal, industrial style zine that's part online
(downloadable PDF) as well as a ink and paper (with VERY limited print run).
Defenitely a radical shift in my overriding plan for what I wanted to
accomplish, but a Chpt 7, a son, a wife, and a sever reduction in income
(only one of us working now) I have to put my priorities first.
--
Toby J. "AlphaTrion-TJW" Woods
-----------------------------------
My homepage: http://www.tobyjwoods.cjb.net
she...@hotmail.com
AlphaTrionTJW wrote:
>
> You, my friend, are not the only one. Seems like more and more each
day
> there is little less in terms of true underground and indie writing
out
> there; even less of the truly reveloutionary and amazing stuff. The
curse
> of the web, for $9.95 a month and a Wal-Mart computer anyone can have
a
> website or a e-zine and the flood of mediocority (sp) is drowning out
the
> truly great and noble work, while creating a generation that is
further and
> further removed from the roots of the community.
I think you need to put your opinion into perspective. Admittedly, you
have to start with the premise of a 10/90 rule: 10% of indy writing is
usually good-to-excellent, and 90% is total garbage. It seems like the
ratio runs about the same for almost every human endeavor (let's hope
that open-heart surgery is a bit more selective in its talent pool. I
mean, just last night I got a full tank of gas and the attendant
actually washed my windows! How many attendants actually do THAT any
more... less than 10 percent, I'm sure.)
But if the 10/90 rule holds true, then what you're actually seeing is
not a decrease in the "quality" ratio, but an increase in the
amount of availability of "creative" material and interest in the
underground - which is a good thing. A larger interested pool of
people means a larger audience to speak to. It's just going to be
harder to find the stuff that you're interested in and that you
consider excellent.
Which is where the great review sources and the discriminating distro
owners come into play. To bring it back to the original subject, a
virtual zine fest would be a great home for such people, but I digress.
As for this new wave of writers/zinesters being further from the zine
community, I'm not so totally sure the zine community had such great
roots to begin with. After reading "Notes from the Underground" by
Stephen Duncombe, I had to question myself, "Is an anti-culture
really a culture at all?" A group of people brought together to be
against something (capitalism, mass-media, etc.) can only exist as long
as the "enemy" exists - I think it would be better to embrace the
new wave of creativity that's emerging, based on just the need/desire
to create (which kind of harkens back to the sci-fi days of zineing).
All of the best of zine culture can be included in this new
incarnation, the kernel of which, I believe, is independent thought and
questioning the status quo.
AlphaTrionTJW
factor", same basic idea.
I think that what a lot of people preceive as a "interest" in underground
lit is a byproduct of blogging. Right now blogs are all the rage and people
are seeking out similar endeavours. Now if that brings some serious
interest from 1 out of 10 people and they stick with indie press, I call a
victory. But I'm simply being pessimestic about the interest staying there.
Plus most people don't have the time and/or patience to wade through the 90%
of shit to get to the 10% of gold; especially if the 90% can bankrool better
advertising and larger market coverage, versus the 10% who are in it for the
message.
she...@hotmail.com
knee-jerk reaction to wanting to "be on the web" -- it's like
background noise. I'd be surprised if 1 percent of current bloggers
today will be doing it 3 years from now.
I wouldn't worry about the 90% being to bankroll anything -- especially
bloggers -- since they are using the outlet because it's cheap
(internet access) and easy. Anything worth the time and effort they
will probably stay away from. "you want me to photocopy HOW many copies
and waste my Saturday night stapling? Forget it!"
I think there will be plenty of spotlight for the serious
writers/artists in zinedom.
ashaanderson
>But, then I got to thinking, why couldn't something like that be
>produced on the web? Not just a site with links to various zinester
>pages, but an all-in-one web site.
Except for design considerations, there's not much difference between
an all-in-one website, that's pages are connected by links and
individual websites connected by links. Click and you're there,
either way. I like your idea though but who's going to pay a
subscription to hear some read a poem or excerpt from their zine?
Writers, in general, aren't the most flamboyant types, except for the
exceptions.
a.
http://www.ashabot.com
blog: http://www.ashabot.blogspot.com
Keep out of damn ditch.
she...@hotmail.com
personal site and a subscription site is that the subscription site is
accountable for all features and links of the site to work properly. I
don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of outdated
links I've followed off of personal sites that were less than a year
old. In my opinion, if I'm shelling out a subscription, I expect the
site to work perfectly (or as near to perfection as the web will
allow).
Most personal web sites are developed, updated maybe once, then left to
age out there in the electronic vastness.
Also, this initial idea of mine would just be a launching point. What
features would everyone like to see on a site like this? Would you like
the site to remember the last zine you read? Would you want it to alert
you when your favorite publication comes out with a new edition? Would
you like it to automatically send small bottles of booze to Jeff Somers
when you read pages from The Inner Swine, akin to a food-pellet
dispenser for a gerbil?
Aside from all that, I just wanted people to start thinking of the
"next level" of underground writing and how the internet could be used
for more than just an electronic bulletin board (and I meant no
reference to the EBB's of 15 to 25 years ago...).
she...@hotmail.com
Vlorbik
for starting one of the best
threads in recent months.
my two cents:
this right *here* is the only
"virtual zine fest" the web needs.
speaking of fests:
i'm always sort of puzzled
by the idea that zine publishing
has slumped since F5 (say):
what *about* all those conventions?
there wasn't anything like 'em
back in the XX century
as far as i know (SF cons
being the closest, i guess).
now they're all over the place.
the golden age is now.
Dan
in the zine hey day. I sat next to Seth peddling F5's at one where Aaron
Cometbus also came. Another included Jim Goad, Chloe from Reading Frenzy
and a bunch of zine publishers from around the Northwest. And then of
course there was the Kill Zinesters tour that hit many of our towns, as
well as annual events in Columbus and Berkeley. The Portland one is newer,
but I think there were a lot more zine conferences and events back in the
90s - at least certainly here. Now there are more low-key events that are
badly attended, whereas zine events in the 90's would draw 200+ people.
-dan
Vlorbik
ohio?
SPACE is only about 5 years old;
jason k. & jen _fucktooth_'s show
in bowling green maybe a year older.
i didn't know about all the west coastish
stuff dan mentions though i suppose
i should have expected it . . . zineac
prob'ly *is* slumping in san francisco . . .
seattle . . . incredibly ziney places
like that . . . but i stand by my assertion:
there appears to be more activity
*nationwide* than during the so-called
zine boom when all the books came out.
Dan
> ohio?
> SPACE is only about 5 years old;
> jason k. & jen _fucktooth_'s show
> in bowling green maybe a year older.
Yeah, I was thinking about what Jen does, but I'm pretty sure she was
putting on zine fests back when she lived in Columbus 10 years ago. Or of
course it could be my drug addled brain firing bad synapsis.
> i didn't know about all the west coastish
> stuff dan mentions though i suppose
> i should have expected it . . . zineac
> prob'ly *is* slumping in san francisco . . .
> seattle . . . incredibly ziney places
> like that . . . but i stand by my assertion:
> there appears to be more activity
> *nationwide* than during the so-called
> zine boom when all the books came out.
Portland certainly seems to have more going on now than it did back in the
day. I guess I judge nationwide activity by how much zines make the
mainstream press (certaintly less) and the number of current zines I see
on the racks at the zine stores I visit. I think we've climbed out of the
slump, but I don't think things are at all at the high they once were.
-dan
bob
> We used to have a zine fest or conference about every year in Seattle
back
> in the zine hey day.
> Now there are more low-key events that are
> badly attended, whereas zine events in the 90's would draw 200+
people.
> -dan
Well, I can't speak for the West Coast scene, but here in the NY/NJ/PA
area, the fests are rockin'! The NJ fest had to have at least 150 or
more people in total, and the Philly fest had easily 300+ people. The
Rotunda was PACKED with zinesters/zine readers, and they poured out
into the streets! "The King" can back me up on this.
Perhaps the West coast, the ignition point for so much past zine
activity, is kinda' burnt out? Since zineing was somewhat low-key on
the East coast for so long, now the next zine generation is claiming it
for their own -- something "new" for them to define their own
individuality? Oh, and let's not forget the foothold for zines in
Baltimore...
bob
You questioned the validity/sanity of offering streaming audio of
zinesters reading their stuff on a subscription web site - well,
Broken Pencil, the "mecca" of Canadian underground culture, is
offering a CD of just that as a part of a push for 2005 gift
subscriptions.
So the question is, if you are willing to pay $45 for a year's
subscription to Broken Pencil, and the CD was the thing that cinched
the deal (there's also a separate book thrown into the mix), then a
$20 subscription to an online resource with very similar content
wouldn't be so far fetched. (I'm not saying that I would pay $45
for a BP subscription, of course, but BP must be getting some type of
response from this offer, or they probably wouldn't be making it).
Bob
www.njghost.com
Dan
Zinesters tour, those were about all West Coast zines. I think the trend
here has been for zinesters that didn't disappear to move on towards doing
bigger publications like indie magazines and papers. And unfortunately,
there weren't a bunch of up-and-coming zinesters to take their place.
Pretty much every time I go out someone stops me and gives me shit for not
doing my zine anymore, since no one really filled my shoes in covering
local music to that extent. I'm always suprised actually, there was the
support of the community and advertising for something like my zine, I was
just getting tired of doing the same thing and wanted to do something
bigger. -dan
Dan
is only 6 issues). I would bet that yes, people are more willing to buy a
print subscription with extra CD package than a web subscription. I'm
counting on it actually, we offer Tablet's full content online free, but
are trying to get people to subscribe to the print version by giving them
2 new CDs also.
I think the web subscription idea is a great idea. I just don't know
anyone who buys them for anything besides porn sites (suicidegirls.com
kinda stuff). I just don't think people are there yet and ready to pay for
a lot of web content since so much of the web is free. Businesses and
libraries buy a lot of web subscriptions, but the average public does not.
But who knows, maybe you can be the person to change their minds. Or get
in on the ground floor, so 5 years from now when it's more commonplace,
you'll have a working system and site in place. I'm just saying I don't
think you will get many subscribers... unless you feature naked zinesters
or something. -dan
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, bob wrote:
The Inner Swine
@homer03.u.washington.edu>, t...@u.washington.edu says...
> Note that's $45 Canadian, which is like $12 US :) It's also 2 years (which
Point of order, Mr. Chairman, that's about $37 US. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!
L
J
--
------------------
The Inner Swine
www.innerswine.com
bob
Hummm... "Beefcakes of the ULA". Maybe there's a market in Florida for
that. You know, the people who two elections ago were so farsighted
that they voted for Buchanan when they thought they were voting for
Gore...
Dan
Making fun of Canada and Canadians comes only second to making fun of
people in Red States up here close to the border. -dan
Dan
selling this concept short without exploring it further ;) -dan
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, bob wrote:
Dan
> I have to agree with the blogging theory. I think that blogging is a
> knee-jerk reaction to wanting to "be on the web" -- it's like
> background noise. I'd be surprised if 1 percent of current bloggers
> today will be doing it 3 years from now.
I'd disagree. Livejournal has been around longer than that, it's numbers
are growing massively and people aren't leaving. Blogging may morph into
something more like a perzine than a diary/journal, but I think it's more
than a flash in the pan, it's now like instant messaging, a way to
communicate with not only your friends and family easily, but with
strangers... and a way to make friends, contacts, etc. The web is where
it's at, that is the future. Print won't go away of course, but you are
not going to see a decrease in most things that are big on the web where
people interact - Myspace, Tribe, AIM, Blogspot, Livejournal, Craigslist,
Yahoo Groups, etc. will all keep growing or be replaced by something
similar.
> I wouldn't worry about the 90% being to bankroll anything -- especially
> bloggers -- since they are using the outlet because it's cheap
> (internet access) and easy. Anything worth the time and effort they
> will probably stay away from. "you want me to photocopy HOW many copies
> and waste my Saturday night stapling? Forget it!"
>
> I think there will be plenty of spotlight for the serious
> writers/artists in zinedom.
Let's hope! And also some shine for the non-serious ones that are a hell
of a lot of fun to read (who I prefer to the former). -dan
Dan
> personal site and a subscription site is that the subscription site is
> accountable for all features and links of the site to work properly. I
> don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of outdated
> links I've followed off of personal sites that were less than a year
> old. In my opinion, if I'm shelling out a subscription, I expect the
> site to work perfectly (or as near to perfection as the web will
> allow).
>
> Most personal web sites are developed, updated maybe once, then left to
> age out there in the electronic vastness.
But, there are plenty of free sites that everything works and are updated
all the time. From Slate to most major publication websites, to blogsites
to a lot of indie publications sites. Our Tablet site is updated with the
entire magazine content once a month, is free, and has no broken links I
know of (there might be a few, but basically it's someone's volunteer job
to keep it up to date). That's the crux. There is a ton of great stuff out
there on the web for free and people aren't used to paying for it, so how
do you get them to? But hey, if you could some how collaborate or find
the support of established indie press orgs/businesses, it could
really help and make it seem so hot shit that people would wanna check it
out. Get ads in the zine yearbook, zine world, zine guide, punk planet,
etc. for it. Get places like Reading Frenzy and Quimby's to post their top
ten zines of the month. That sort of shit. There are endless possibilities
on how to make it so hot that zinesters feel they have to subscribe so you
can build a base level of subscribers and get word of mouth going. -dan
Vlorbik
ashaanderson
>Would you want it to alert
>you when your favorite publication comes out with a new edition? Would
>you like it to automatically send small bottles of booze to Jeff Somers
>when you read pages from The Inner Swine, akin to a food-pellet
>dispenser for a gerbil?
Now, that's a fine idea, one that I'm sure has the full endorsement of
Jeff. Of course, if you gave him a booze-pellet dispenser bar, he'd
break it right away from banging on it too much but I guess, he'd pass
out occasionally and that would add a bit to the life of the thing.
Hey.....is all this musing just an elaborate scheme hatched by Somers
himself?
ashaanderson
>Also, this initial idea of mine would just be a launching point. What
>features would everyone like to see on a site like this? Would you like
>the site to remember the last zine you read? Would you want it to alert
>you when your favorite publication comes out with a new edition?
>
>Aside from all that, I just wanted people to start thinking of the
>"next level" of underground writing and how the internet could be used
>for more than just an electronic bulletin board (and I meant no
>reference to the EBB's of 15 to 25 years ago...).
>
>Bob
>www.njghost.com
Good questions. I like the idea of publication alerts. Also, I think
editorials, such as appear in Zine World, would be interesting and of
value. Things that help create community and inter-relatedness are
needed. Zines are very personal, whatever category they fall in.
They are niche publications so we would benefit from things that
connect us and draw us above and beyond that.
For instance, just because I do a poetry zine or a lit zine, doesn't
mean I don't share similar interests, politics or points of view with
people who do a perzine, music zine, comic-related zine, review zine,
pop culture zine or whatever. There's room for more lively, online,
outward bound dialogue. Otherwise, we tend to be expansive, free
thinkers living in mental sub-divisions. Look what happens even
around here. The conversations are so overly focused that we have
trouble talking to one another. What good is that? Like Vlorbik
pointed out, your thread is one of the best in months. That's sad.
The Inner Swine
> himself?
Muhahahahahhahahaha!