Academics v. the ULA
Michael
make a few points. Then I'll get off and go back to my conspicuous
silence.
The academy is a place one goes to to get a piece of paper saying they
know something. That's all it is, really -- an expensive mill with
rubber stamps. I'll be audacious and venture that most of us in the
zine world already know that.
But a college education would be useless if nobody believed in it.
That's why colleges primarily turn out people who believe in a college
education. Just as churches turn out people of questionable morals
who all believe that you must go to church to be saved, colleges turn
out people of questionable intelligence who believe you must go to
college to be learned.
Such an institution is necessarily hostile to the idea that we can
learn on our own. Such an institution is hostile to the idea of
people starting their own newspapers, doing their own studies, and
forming their own opinions.
After a certain point, it gets ridiculous. Such is the case with a
university professor agreeing to debate us on the future of literature
(we are literary writers already!) and its relevance to the public (WE
ARE ALREADY MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC!) provided, of course, that we subit
placidly to the same intellectual intimidation that the academe uses
to work its sordid magic on other seekers of education. Just as some
grinning advocate of Moses or Allah hands you a book of precepts
before a debate on religion, this character wants to hand us a similar
Koran before we can ask questions of him. I want to be a legitimate
opponent, not an involuntary student! And so what if that sounds
impudent! I can only wonder what this individual would do if
zinesters asked him to work a dead-end job for a few months or find
out what it's like to try to live as an unlicensed intellectual in
this country. He'd pass on that for sure. You all know what rewards
we get in this enterprise!
I thought the whole idea of zines was, "I don't need no stinkin'
license to stand among the rest of the publishers and say what I
think." And I'm pretty surprised that any zinester would stand in
favor of jumping through hoops to get the chance to sound off. So
what if we're obnoxious? Sometimes you have to be obnoxious to get
your point across.
And there ends the opining.
- Michael
Vlorbik
who couldn't have learned
some of the stuff we know
any other way -- most math-heads
probably fit into this group, e.g. .
i agree that "higher learning"
is a disgustingly corrupt institution
but nevertheless it's a better place
for print addicts to spend their time
than most. libraries are sick too.
for that matter, i've always more or less
figured that most church ladies are in it
for the social life and that a vocal minority
of self-righteous assholes are the ones
making churches look the way jackman
describes 'em. the point? none, really.
i got my "supporting member" card
from u.l.a. yesterday (thanks!) but
that doesn't mean i agree with everything
michael or karl says . . .
oh yeah. that raymond williams lexicon that somebody finally called by its
name
upthread somewhere is far from obscure:
i've looked it over in a barnes & noble
and would *relish* an excuse to read it.
mad owen t.
man without a college
>
The academy is a place one goes to to get a piece of paper saying they
know something. That's all it is, really -- an expensive mill with
rubber stamps.
The Inner Swine
bearer of a BA in English (whoo-hoo! 30 credits to greateness, I
attended four classes during my whole career at college, not including
midterm and final exams).
My conclusion was that up to a certain point in any liberal arts
situation, college is there to train you to hold down an entry-level to
middle-management job. That's it. 'Math-heads' as Owen calls them and
other disciplines with specific realms of study and skill sets don't
necessarily fit into this model; I'm mainly thinking of lib arts majors
who have neither. The whole point of having that BA is to show potential
employers that you can a) independently maintain a schedule of activity,
b) digest and comprehend material without being spoon-fed, and c)
conform to a culture.
For most BAs, their first job requires almost nothing they learned in
school. Their first job will almost certainly include a long training
period where they will acquire the skills they need. There is absolutely
no reason a High School dropout couldn't perform *my* job, for example,
after maybe a three-month training period (and I'm not even entry-level
any more, believe it or not). The only reason they wouldn't be hired,
once you strip back the bullshit, is that the Company (as I've come to
think of my employer--a reference to the all-powerful COmpany in the
Alien movies) wouldn't believe they could be trusted, since they hadn't
made it through the mental boot-camp of college.
Thems my thoughts on the matter. I once wrote a Pig in Shit on the
subject of 'the sham of education' and I'll post it here if anyone wants
me to.
L
J
--
The Inner Swine
www.innerswine.com
Dan
hours a week for 4 more years and it's a great place to do a lot of drugs
and pick up chicks. -dan
Jeff Potter
profs, few TA's. This was before the deluge, I guess. OK, a full half of
them were quite good and inspirational. I think I got a bit of a classic
education experience from it all. They pushed me. I took liberties and
ventured widely in the fields we covered. I made that library steam. And
this was in a faceless bureaucratic huge U. I wanted to learn and I made
those suckas work. I made the secy's work, too. I should've been handing
out lots of roses when I graduated. I woulda been mud without those ladies!
I lucked into (or maybe found--I might've done some digging) profs who
loved the fields they represented and didn't have their minds on jobs or
paper. In my papers I tried to push the knowledge of a field via my
research and didn't give a damn about my grade. I developed longterm
relations with several profs that have been encouraging to me after
graduating. Needless to say none of them were operators in powerplays
within their fields. However, I musta made a dent in a dean once because he
invited me to a bunch of career and alt.media special days and events over
the years to give my take on zines and homebrew publishing. So I busted
zines into our big local U.
I do recall a prof disparaging us kids once back in the day. It was in a
Reagan Recession and he said it was very unlikely we'd find any decent real
reporting jobs in journalism. He gave me a 0.0 on a big paper, too, once.
And it was a good one. I bet he enjoyed doing that. I could give a rat's
ass. I made sure I got a great job, though, with no help from them. In
fact, I never knew that they even offered 'career' services. I had my eye
on the field not on any intermediaries ever at any point. I never could get
any work on the student paper. They had a clique and even mostly pulled
from the J-school fraternal org. These were people I never saw who hung
with snooty suck-up profs like Mr. Zero-point. So I did notice those
elements. I just found a sufficiency of those with other views who were
helpful and inspiring and used their position to help others. And I hung
around with the dirtbag hardcore reporter, photographer types. I'm not sure
we can learn it all on our own. We have to claim it for ourselves, verify
it, but it does help to have strategic provocation from those who've been
there done that. I respect the teacher-student method.
I had LOTS of good gradeschool teachers, too. (But some bad ones, too, of
course.) I came within hairsbreadth on at least two big occasions to being
a drop-out, but had caring teachers (and principal and even superintendent)
go beyond the usual. Heck, that applies to college as well.
--
Jeff Potter j...@outyourbackdoorNOSPAM.com
http://OutYourBackdoor.com -- a friendly ezine of modern folkways and
culture revival...offering a line of alternative books and a world of
bikes, boats, skis...plus shops for great sleeper books, videos and music
...plus nationwide "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums for local fun,
bumperstickers and a new social magnet stickers! ...Holy Smokes!!!
TomHendricks474
zinesters asked him to work a dead-end job for a few months or find
out what it's like to try to live as an unlicensed intellectual in
this country. He'd pass on that for sure. You all know what rewards
we get in this enterprise!
>>
Amen and
Michael, you've got the new reality show here
a minimum wage-off. A professor and a zinester lives in the same dump and the
professor has to loose tenure and survive.
Call it Publish to Survive!
These insolated college goofs are a lot of fun.
Tom Hendricks, ed. of Musea
(now celebrating our 10th year)
http://musea.digitalchainsaw.com
For a list of the Corp. Art Weasels
http://CJR.org/owners/
TomHendricks474
asha_anderson
>there's a few of us academics
>who couldn't have learned
>some of the stuff we know
>any other way -- most math-heads
>probably fit into this group, e.g. .
I can't resist jumping in as this is an opportunity to agree with
vlorbik, which I have come to appreciate as one of the quirky little
pleasure of life.
I used to think just like Jackman. I guess for a while it was
comforting looking down on people with degrees because I didn't have
one. Anyway, I've changed my mind.
As the saying goes, "If you think education is expensive -- try
ignorance. (Bok's Law) You might say ""If you think education is a
waste of time -- try ignorance."
At any rate, if college graduates are clods, high school graduates
and drop outs aren't doing any better. I've got a nagging suspicion
that I missed something not completing my education... like getting
an understanding of the history of human thought, seeing where we've
been, what mistakes we've made. Seems important these days that we
don't repeat some of the mistakes of the past. But, like anything in
life, you get out it what you put into it. If education were so easy
to rubber stamp, the universities would be cranking out scholars.
Unfortunately they're not.
Steve Kudlak
Vlorbik wrote:
And yeah some of us teach Math to rather
bewildered 16 year olds. The academic universe
is good for getting a background. There is also
something to be said for just going and doing
it. But both have real value. That's my point...
I rather have both. Good things do come out
of the underground and good things come out
of Clarion too.
The funny thing with all of this going down is
that it begs to have a postmodern analysis done
of it. The whole thing just amazingly fits. It pings
on (brings up the questions of) all those issues
about is something real? is it not? If someone
gave a revolution but nobody came what would
happen? Can you have a revolution without
someone forcing content? Is the cure worse than
the disease? Be careful of what you wish for you
may get it? Yep it brings up those sorts of questions.
Especially the big one about whether something
is real or constructed. I mean I can see it now:
Summer Session July 2005 --- The ULA vs. The
Academics a hyperpostmodern analysis of issues
in the literaty underground of the late 20th and early
21st Centuries". Taught by the Vlorbik who finally
found his college.;) Uh, excuse me I am having too
much fun...I am sure Vlorbik would not be that stuffy.
Have Fun,
Sends Steve
P.S. The urban hermitt is very postmodern maybe I
should write her a letter and tell her that. I may suggest
the urban hermitt to literature types I know. The funny
thing was that Granta and Gauntlet readers were often
the first to buy zines and see them as important things.
People who bought Stephen King tend not to do so.
H. P. Lovecraft and Phillip K. Dick readers would...
Another interesting thing is that people now well
regarded like Erik Satie and Alfred Jarry who are
well thought of in academia (as an aside I really do
like the book "The Banquet Years" by Roger Shattuck)
thesedays did not start out within the establishment
of the time. It just dawned on people that surrealism
was an interesting thing. Note this also came out of
the "Salon Culture" which was in many ways kind
of zinelike and democratic.
Steve Kudlak
The Inner Swine wrote:
Sounds like an interesting idea. It is different
for techies and math-nerds and bio-nerds.
I still use stuff I learned in Biochemistry and
it has been useful. The stuff I learned in math
still is useful. Now for a counter-point most of
the official IBM FORTRAN and COBOL oreinted
stuff is overall not useful. The guy who taught
it barely knew what he was doing and he just
did it because he liked adding "computers" to his
vitae. That worked for him. . The bright young
plant physiology professor did know and
communicate his ideas and they were useful.
For example I can't see how people get around
modern medicine even as a consumer without
some knowledge. It must be all magic mumbo
jumbo to them. Yes the plant physiology prof
did lose out in academic infighting. The general
ideas he was into slowly became the accepted
way of seeing things...He got a better job in
Texas and it was really better for him.
Note well that a lot of the good that academia
did in my situation was give me a basic starting
point. It also got me out of the dismal working
class world that was headed for a decline anyhow.
Although at the time I was told I should just go
work for the foundry. That would most likely been
a big big mistake.
Have Fun,
Sends Steve
Michael
> there's a few of us academics
> who couldn't have learned
> some of the stuff we know
> any other way -- most math-heads
> probably fit into this group, e.g. .
> i agree that "higher learning"
> is a disgustingly corrupt institution
> but nevertheless it's a better place
> for print addicts to spend their time
> than most. libraries are sick too.
Thanks for the understanding counterpoint, V. I'm sure you know I'm
not writing some objective essay so much as waving a flag and seeing
who dares shoot!
Here's something relevant I read about Charles Franklin Kettering, the
inventor of the starterand the ignition and lighting system for the
automobile in an Ohio barn:
"[When Kettering] was graduated he took his diploma home and threw it
into the fireplace. When it was in ashes he said, 'Now I will learn
something about engineering.'
"This was not histrionics on Ket's part. It was the beginning of his
system of self-discipline to keep his mind open. His favorite
aphorism is, 'The fellow who believes the last textbook is stuck with
it.'
"At a luncheon given for Dr. Karl Compton, president of the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, I heard Ket say something like
this: 'If you have any good third-year men at M.I.T., send them to me.
Their minds are still open. But I do not like them so well when they
have been graduated. Once they get a sheepskin, it's sometimes a job
prying their minds open again.'
"Later I asked him what he meant by that.
"'What I said,' he answered, 'was partly in jest. But, nevertheless,
it is true that graduation brings about a psychological change in a
boy. It is a matter of pride, of face saving. He has acquired an
education. It is his. He's proud of it, as we are all likely to
become proud of anything that we have achieved after hard work. He
doesn't want it questioned. There is always associated with it that
pride of opinion wwhich is the beginning of the end of an open mind.
Education should but often doesn't discipline a youth to a realization
that he does not know. The hope of the world is in intelligent
ignorance. Just as soon as you become satisfied with what you think
you know, the concrete has begun to set in your head."
Steve Kudlak
Michael wrote:
Well a few thoughts and then I should go to
bed. I don't think that always happens.
There are problems with the academic world
being sort of self-referential as academic a
will refer to academic b's books etc. But we in
zines do that too. Many of us refer to people
(with justification in my not so humble opinion)
like the urban hermitt as sort of someone one
should read. I might mention I think highly of
The Ten Page News and Ten Thousand Things
or Eyecandy or lots of stuff. The big difference
is that I haven't set myself up as generating
any stamp of approval. I don't say that someone
can't be into zines until they have read these basic
zines which are like my idea of canonical zines.
As I mentioned with William Gibson some academics
sort of did that. They also sought to make things
conform to "Gibson's Vision" instead of looking at
the real stuff in front of their eyes.
But good things come out of academia too. There are
useful things that people learn and it is good to have
some idea of some basic things. One usually goes on
from there. Most people do, inside or outside of
academia. I have never heard of biochemists saying
Leninger (if I remember the spelling) was the be all
and end all of plant physiology or that Goodman and
Gilman was the last word on pharamaology. Those are
just good basic texts and worthwhile starting points.
Now in the case of art and literature sometimes it does
seem to get a little more self referential. I mean I know
people who in academia now think Stephen Greenblatt
who wrote Resonance and Wonder is the cat's meow.
The interesting thing is he is an example of the one who
the academy when he entered made snarly noises at him
because he proposed a "deconstruction of the great masters".
He is fond of going around giving a feminist analysis on
Shakespheare's Taming of The Shrew and a leftie political
analsyis of The Tempest. I find the latter particularly fun.
I mean relating The Tempest to Elizebethan politics is cute.
But lots of common folks freak about this. They don't
like people taking their canon of sacred works apart and
they freak out at it.
My big problem is that I don't think the folks who like
Strephen Greenblatt set out to opress others. I don't think
they kill good literature in all cases. In fact things like
postmodernism exist because it explains things. I think
zines are kind of a very postmodern thing. They exist
outside the accepted canon and do their own thing. I think
this is kind of cute and downright useful and inspiring
and all that good stuff too.
The problem with contests is who is to be the judge.
I mean I was bored one day and I saw this program
about a "Biker Build Off". These two groups one from
the East and one from The West. They were going
to build bikes and see who did the best. It sort of worked
because they could both agree what a good bike was,
and standards for good bikes and had a common group
to judge them. In the case of the ULA vs. The Academics
I don't think there is that common group.
I just think all these things can grow and exist in
co-existance of each other. If people can push the arts
funding community to be more populist that would be
great. I mean it would be nice to see something on PBS
other than all these stupid new age health programs.
But the "problem" is that a lot of people like that sort
of stuff. I know people who mention to me "Did you
see Gary Null on WQED last night?" My latest tack
has been to push them to add more alternative programming
like POV (Point of View) and stuff like that.
N.B. From my experience the Granta and Literary Mag
types were much friendly to zines than the folks who
read Stephen King and Anne Rice. Although maybe if
I had some Goth zines to wave under the eyes of the
Ann Rice types I might have done better with them.
In fact the people who read Foreign Affairs and all those
Art Today magazines were very zine friendly. So it is
hard for me to see them as "the enemy". Although the
art critic structure does bother me...I still think Robert
Mapplethorpe was pretty good inspite of his pecadillos
and all of that crowd was kind of zine like in startup.
Have Fun,
Sends Steve