My original intention for the DVD I'm completing (Philly Zine Fest 2004) was to have a "virtual" Zine Fest experience. You know, a first-person camera view of the fest "trading" floor, first-person interviews/discussions with various zinesters, filming of all of the workshops and even interactive DVD activities, etc. The actual video is far from that grand vision, sadly, but something I'm still proud of.
But, then I got to thinking, why couldn't something like that be produced on the web? Not just a site with links to various zinester pages, but an all-in-one web site. It would include not only the trading/e-commerce that we've all come to expect when visiting a distro or zine site, but also streaming video or audio of zinesters and poets reading short works. It could include DIY projects and resources, and the ubiquitous message boards for people to communicate.
The obvious hurdle in my mind would be the cost of such a venture – sure streaming audio and video is becoming more common, but it ain't cheap! The server costs would be considerable if you "did it right". Would anyone be willing to pay a subscription for access to such a web site? Say $10 to $15 per year?
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004, bob wrote: > Would anyone be willing to pay a subscription for access to such a web > site? Say $10 to $15 per year?
Hmmmm... you'd have to make it pretty damn exciting. Most zine fests I've been to are fairly boring, save for a couple lively panels. Don't get me wrong, I love to chat with fellow publishers and zine readers, but they are generally pretty low-key. -dan
> Hmmmm... you'd have to make it pretty damn exciting. Most zine fests I've > been to are fairly boring, save for a couple lively panels. Don't get me > wrong, I love to chat with fellow publishers and zine readers, but they > are generally pretty low-key. -dan
What do you determine as an excitement/cost balance? People pay $40+ a month for cable television, though they probably watch the same 5 channels. And even then the shows are so-so. How exciting is that?
People also pay $8+ a ticket for a 2-hour movie. How many movies have you seen lately that could be called "exciting"? (Though, I admit that "The Incredibles" was a pretty cool movie..., so there's one).
It's amazing what we (myself included) as "indy people" choose to spend our money on. We'll fork over $50+ bucks a month for entertainment (cable, movies, CDs, etc.), but we balk if a zine is over $2. Any strong industry/culture knows that the bedrock of sustainable growth is re-investment in itself.
But, I guess if someone willing to spend at least a half-hour, every other day on a message board about zines still has doubts about the attraction of a virtual zine fest web site, it probably isn't a good idea.
While I'll give you points for having a really good idea, and it is a good idea, the thing is that the zine scene, and the people who would have a die-hard/ongoing interest in it I'm failry sure wouldn't be willing to pay a subscription for a website that's essentially a collection of information they may already have.
AlphaTrionTJW" <creationmat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:5bSdndcR4r3z7S_cRVn-qQ@comcast.com>... > While I'll give you points for having a really good idea, and it is a good > idea, the thing is that the zine scene, and the people who would have a > die-hard/ongoing interest in it I'm failry sure wouldn't be willing to pay a > subscription for a website that's essentially a collection of information they may already have.
Very valid point,
I suppose much of the information/contacts would be duplicated on the site, and I was hoping that the extra features would be the "worthwhile" factor: recordings (either audio or video) of zinesters/poets reading their stuff (as it seems that the litmus test for a "real" writer is if he/she has done a reading in some smoky bar somewhere – or is that just in NY and Philly); and a "zine floor" where would-be distros or zinesters, wanting to sell their stuff online, but don't have the time/skill to set up their own e-commerce area, could just sign-up and use a web template to build one.
Agreeably, this notion is far-fetched with the microscopic pocketbook that zinedom collectively shares, but then again, I did preface my opening statement that I was just thinking out-loud. I suppose I'm just one of those dreamers who openly admits that he wishes zineing would eventually morph into a life-style-sustaining practice, instead of an F-ed up, partly-consuming hobby.
As I said, you've got a very good idea, but the nature of the net and the ease of access for information ~shrug~ makes such endeavours more a labor of love than anything. Still it doesn't invalidate the basic idea.
"I suppose I'm just one of those dreamers who openly admits that he wishes zineing would eventually morph into a life-style-sustaining practice, instead of an F-ed up, partly-consuming hobby."
You, my friend, are not the only one. Seems like more and more each day there is little less in terms of true underground and indie writing out there; even less of the truly reveloutionary and amazing stuff. The curse of the web, for $9.95 a month and a Wal-Mart computer anyone can have a website or a e-zine and the flood of mediocority (sp) is drowning out the truly great and noble work, while creating a generation that is further and further removed from the roots of the community.
Sorry, my interospective moment for the day...
I've been trying to launch of print zine for over 18 months now, but it looks like I'll be splitting the projec tup into a ~shudder~ blogish sort of socion political though e-zine and possibly and smaller (by a large scale) retroscifish,early punk/metal, industrial style zine that's part online (downloadable PDF) as well as a ink and paper (with VERY limited print run). Defenitely a radical shift in my overriding plan for what I wanted to accomplish, but a Chpt 7, a son, a wife, and a sever reduction in income (only one of us working now) I have to put my priorities first.
> You, my friend, are not the only one. Seems like more and more each day > there is little less in terms of true underground and indie writing out > there; even less of the truly reveloutionary and amazing stuff. The curse > of the web, for $9.95 a month and a Wal-Mart computer anyone can have a > website or a e-zine and the flood of mediocority (sp) is drowning out the > truly great and noble work, while creating a generation that is further and > further removed from the roots of the community.
I think you need to put your opinion into perspective. Admittedly, you have to start with the premise of a 10/90 rule: 10% of indy writing is usually good-to-excellent, and 90% is total garbage. It seems like the ratio runs about the same for almost every human endeavor (let's hope that open-heart surgery is a bit more selective in its talent pool. I mean, just last night I got a full tank of gas and the attendant actually washed my windows! How many attendants actually do THAT any more... less than 10 percent, I'm sure.)
But if the 10/90 rule holds true, then what you're actually seeing is not a decrease in the "quality" ratio, but an increase in the amount of availability of "creative" material and interest in the underground - which is a good thing. A larger interested pool of people means a larger audience to speak to. It's just going to be harder to find the stuff that you're interested in and that you consider excellent.
Which is where the great review sources and the discriminating distro owners come into play. To bring it back to the original subject, a virtual zine fest would be a great home for such people, but I digress.
As for this new wave of writers/zinesters being further from the zine community, I'm not so totally sure the zine community had such great roots to begin with. After reading "Notes from the Underground" by Stephen Duncombe, I had to question myself, "Is an anti-culture really a culture at all?" A group of people brought together to be against something (capitalism, mass-media, etc.) can only exist as long as the "enemy" exists - I think it would be better to embrace the new wave of creativity that's emerging, based on just the need/desire to create (which kind of harkens back to the sci-fi days of zineing). All of the best of zine culture can be included in this new incarnation, the kernel of which, I believe, is independent thought and questioning the status quo.
I've heard this premise before; except my lit teacher called the "shit factor", same basic idea.
I think that what a lot of people preceive as a "interest" in underground lit is a byproduct of blogging. Right now blogs are all the rage and people are seeking out similar endeavours. Now if that brings some serious interest from 1 out of 10 people and they stick with indie press, I call a victory. But I'm simply being pessimestic about the interest staying there. Plus most people don't have the time and/or patience to wade through the 90% of shit to get to the 10% of gold; especially if the 90% can bankrool better advertising and larger market coverage, versus the 10% who are in it for the message.
I have to agree with the blogging theory. I think that blogging is a knee-jerk reaction to wanting to "be on the web" -- it's like background noise. I'd be surprised if 1 percent of current bloggers today will be doing it 3 years from now.
I wouldn't worry about the 90% being to bankroll anything -- especially bloggers -- since they are using the outlet because it's cheap (internet access) and easy. Anything worth the time and effort they will probably stay away from. "you want me to photocopy HOW many copies and waste my Saturday night stapling? Forget it!"
I think there will be plenty of spotlight for the serious writers/artists in zinedom.
On 2 Dec 2004 08:01:14 -0800, shea...@hotmail.com (bob) wrote:
>But, then I got to thinking, why couldn't something like that be >produced on the web? Not just a site with links to various zinester >pages, but an all-in-one web site.
Except for design considerations, there's not much difference between an all-in-one website, that's pages are connected by links and individual websites connected by links. Click and you're there, either way. I like your idea though but who's going to pay a subscription to hear some read a poem or excerpt from their zine? Writers, in general, aren't the most flamboyant types, except for the exceptions.
Actually, in my point of view, the major difference between a free, personal site and a subscription site is that the subscription site is accountable for all features and links of the site to work properly. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of outdated links I've followed off of personal sites that were less than a year old. In my opinion, if I'm shelling out a subscription, I expect the site to work perfectly (or as near to perfection as the web will allow).
Most personal web sites are developed, updated maybe once, then left to age out there in the electronic vastness.
Also, this initial idea of mine would just be a launching point. What features would everyone like to see on a site like this? Would you like the site to remember the last zine you read? Would you want it to alert you when your favorite publication comes out with a new edition? Would you like it to automatically send small bottles of booze to Jeff Somers when you read pages from The Inner Swine, akin to a food-pellet dispenser for a gerbil?
Aside from all that, I just wanted people to start thinking of the "next level" of underground writing and how the internet could be used for more than just an electronic bulletin board (and I meant no reference to the EBB's of 15 to 25 years ago...).
Actually, in my point of view, the major difference between a free, personal site and a subscription site is that the subscription site is accountable for all features and links of the site to work properly. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of outdated links I've followed off of personal sites that were less than a year old. In my opinion, if I'm shelling out a subscription, I expect the site to work perfectly (or as near to perfection as the web will allow).
Most personal web sites are developed, updated maybe once, then left to age out there in the electronic vastness.
Also, this initial idea of mine would just be a launching point. What features would everyone like to see on a site like this? Would you like the site to remember the last zine you read? Would you want it to alert you when your favorite publication comes out with a new edition? Would you like it to automatically send small bottles of booze to Jeff Somers when you read pages from The Inner Swine, akin to a food-pellet dispenser for a gerbil?
Aside from all that, I just wanted people to start thinking of the "next level" of underground writing and how the internet could be used for more than just an electronic bulletin board (and I meant no reference to the EBB's of 15 to 25 years ago...).
so: thanks to the NJ ghost for starting one of the best threads in recent months. my two cents: this right *here* is the only "virtual zine fest" the web needs.
speaking of fests: i'm always sort of puzzled by the idea that zine publishing has slumped since F5 (say): what *about* all those conventions? there wasn't anything like 'em back in the XX century as far as i know (SF cons being the closest, i guess). now they're all over the place. the golden age is now.
We used to have a zine fest or conference about every year in Seattle back in the zine hey day. I sat next to Seth peddling F5's at one where Aaron Cometbus also came. Another included Jim Goad, Chloe from Reading Frenzy and a bunch of zine publishers from around the Northwest. And then of course there was the Kill Zinesters tour that hit many of our towns, as well as annual events in Columbus and Berkeley. The Portland one is newer, but I think there were a lot more zine conferences and events back in the 90s - at least certainly here. Now there are more low-key events that are badly attended, whereas zine events in the 90's would draw 200+ people. -dan
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Vlorbik wrote: > speaking of fests: > i'm always sort of puzzled > by the idea that zine publishing > has slumped since F5 (say): > what *about* all those conventions? > there wasn't anything like 'em > back in the XX century > as far as i know (SF cons > being the closest, i guess). > now they're all over the place. > the golden age is now.
annual events in columbus? ohio? SPACE is only about 5 years old; jason k. & jen _fucktooth_'s show in bowling green maybe a year older.
i didn't know about all the west coastish stuff dan mentions though i suppose i should have expected it . . . zineac prob'ly *is* slumping in san francisco . . . seattle . . . incredibly ziney places like that . . . but i stand by my assertion: there appears to be more activity *nationwide* than during the so-called zine boom when all the books came out.
> annual events in columbus? > ohio? > SPACE is only about 5 years old; > jason k. & jen _fucktooth_'s show > in bowling green maybe a year older.
Yeah, I was thinking about what Jen does, but I'm pretty sure she was putting on zine fests back when she lived in Columbus 10 years ago. Or of course it could be my drug addled brain firing bad synapsis.
> i didn't know about all the west coastish > stuff dan mentions though i suppose > i should have expected it . . . zineac > prob'ly *is* slumping in san francisco . . . > seattle . . . incredibly ziney places > like that . . . but i stand by my assertion: > there appears to be more activity > *nationwide* than during the so-called > zine boom when all the books came out.
Portland certainly seems to have more going on now than it did back in the day. I guess I judge nationwide activity by how much zines make the mainstream press (certaintly less) and the number of current zines I see on the racks at the zine stores I visit. I think we've climbed out of the slump, but I don't think things are at all at the high they once were. -dan
Dan wrote: > We used to have a zine fest or conference about every year in Seattle back > in the zine hey day. [snips] > Now there are more low-key events that are > badly attended, whereas zine events in the 90's would draw 200+ people. > -dan
Well, I can't speak for the West Coast scene, but here in the NY/NJ/PA area, the fests are rockin'! The NJ fest had to have at least 150 or more people in total, and the Philly fest had easily 300+ people. The Rotunda was PACKED with zinesters/zine readers, and they poured out into the streets! "The King" can back me up on this.
Perhaps the West coast, the ignition point for so much past zine activity, is kinda' burnt out? Since zineing was somewhat low-key on the East coast for so long, now the next zine generation is claiming it for their own -- something "new" for them to define their own individuality? Oh, and let's not forget the foothold for zines in Baltimore...
You questioned the validity/sanity of offering streaming audio of zinesters reading their stuff on a subscription web site - well, Broken Pencil, the "mecca" of Canadian underground culture, is offering a CD of just that as a part of a push for 2005 gift subscriptions.
So the question is, if you are willing to pay $45 for a year's subscription to Broken Pencil, and the CD was the thing that cinched the deal (there's also a separate book thrown into the mix), then a $20 subscription to an online resource with very similar content wouldn't be so far fetched. (I'm not saying that I would pay $45 for a BP subscription, of course, but BP must be getting some type of response from this offer, or they probably wouldn't be making it). Bob www.njghost.com
This could be true, if you think about the big zine explosion and the Kill Zinesters tour, those were about all West Coast zines. I think the trend here has been for zinesters that didn't disappear to move on towards doing bigger publications like indie magazines and papers. And unfortunately, there weren't a bunch of up-and-coming zinesters to take their place. Pretty much every time I go out someone stops me and gives me shit for not doing my zine anymore, since no one really filled my shoes in covering local music to that extent. I'm always suprised actually, there was the support of the community and advertising for something like my zine, I was just getting tired of doing the same thing and wanted to do something bigger. -dan
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, bob wrote: > Perhaps the West coast, the ignition point for so much past zine > activity, is kinda' burnt out? Since zineing was somewhat low-key on > the East coast for so long, now the next zine generation is claiming it > for their own -- something "new" for them to define their own > individuality? Oh, and let's not forget the foothold for zines in > Baltimore...
Note that's $45 Canadian, which is like $12 US :) It's also 2 years (which is only 6 issues). I would bet that yes, people are more willing to buy a print subscription with extra CD package than a web subscription. I'm counting on it actually, we offer Tablet's full content online free, but are trying to get people to subscribe to the print version by giving them 2 new CDs also.
I think the web subscription idea is a great idea. I just don't know anyone who buys them for anything besides porn sites (suicidegirls.com kinda stuff). I just don't think people are there yet and ready to pay for a lot of web content since so much of the web is free. Businesses and libraries buy a lot of web subscriptions, but the average public does not. But who knows, maybe you can be the person to change their minds. Or get in on the ground floor, so 5 years from now when it's more commonplace, you'll have a working system and site in place. I'm just saying I don't think you will get many subscribers... unless you feature naked zinesters or something. -dan
> You questioned the validity/sanity of offering streaming audio of > zinesters reading their stuff on a subscription web site - well, > Broken Pencil, the "mecca" of Canadian underground culture, is > offering a CD of just that as a part of a push for 2005 gift > subscriptions.
> So the question is, if you are willing to pay $45 for a year's > subscription to Broken Pencil, and the CD was the thing that cinched > the deal (there's also a separate book thrown into the mix), then a > $20 subscription to an online resource with very similar content > wouldn't be so far fetched. (I'm not saying that I would pay $45 > for a BP subscription, of course, but BP must be getting some type of > response from this offer, or they probably wouldn't be making it). > Bob > www.njghost.com
"unless you feature naked zinesters or something."
Hummm... "Beefcakes of the ULA". Maybe there's a market in Florida for that. You know, the people who two elections ago were so farsighted that they voted for Buchanan when they thought they were voting for Gore...
It's all part of the making fun of Canada thing, get with the program. Making fun of Canada and Canadians comes only second to making fun of people in Red States up here close to the border. -dan
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, The Inner Swine wrote: > In article <Pine.A41.4.61b.0412081150130.305850 > @homer03.u.washington.edu>, t...@u.washington.edu says... >> Note that's $45 Canadian, which is like $12 US :) It's also 2 years (which
> Point of order, Mr. Chairman, that's about $37 US. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004, bob wrote: > "unless you feature naked zinesters or something."
> Hummm... "Beefcakes of the ULA". Maybe there's a market in Florida for > that. You know, the people who two elections ago were so farsighted > that they voted for Buchanan when they thought they were voting for > Gore...
> I have to agree with the blogging theory. I think that blogging is a > knee-jerk reaction to wanting to "be on the web" -- it's like > background noise. I'd be surprised if 1 percent of current bloggers > today will be doing it 3 years from now.
I'd disagree. Livejournal has been around longer than that, it's numbers are growing massively and people aren't leaving. Blogging may morph into something more like a perzine than a diary/journal, but I think it's more than a flash in the pan, it's now like instant messaging, a way to communicate with not only your friends and family easily, but with strangers... and a way to make friends, contacts, etc. The web is where it's at, that is the future. Print won't go away of course, but you are not going to see a decrease in most things that are big on the web where people interact - Myspace, Tribe, AIM, Blogspot, Livejournal, Craigslist, Yahoo Groups, etc. will all keep growing or be replaced by something similar.
> I wouldn't worry about the 90% being to bankroll anything -- especially > bloggers -- since they are using the outlet because it's cheap > (internet access) and easy. Anything worth the time and effort they > will probably stay away from. "you want me to photocopy HOW many copies > and waste my Saturday night stapling? Forget it!"
> I think there will be plenty of spotlight for the serious > writers/artists in zinedom.
Let's hope! And also some shine for the non-serious ones that are a hell of a lot of fun to read (who I prefer to the former). -dan
