Zining and the next big literary movement....(Can I be Postmodern:) ...uhh...pleeeease!!!
Steve Kudlak
wrote:
>In article <c94aca2f.01111...@posting.google.com>, Jeff Potter
>says...
>
>>*Em McElderry says,
>>"I've met a number of academically-oriented writers in my travels and
>>teaching, but they are pale shadows of Miller. And as for most of the
>>better-known writers in America--well, most of them write fiction,
>>mainly, which immediately takes them out of the bigger game. For
>>fiction can be a high art, of course, who does't love it? But America
>>is drowning in "make-believe"--that is, I'm afraid, the point here: We
>>simply do not know who we are anymore! (I wonder if we ever did as a
>>nation?)."
>
>Weren't people, in the last few years, whining about the onslaught of the
>memoir...? I'd rather read "pure" fiction than fiction under the guise of
>"autobiography." I believe it's dangerous to alter life's events and then claim
>that it really happened that way (as is usually the case with many perzines and
>autobiographies.) It skews life, makes it more dramatic and polished than it
>really is, and it gives a false impression of modern life.
>
>>*Emerson said,
>>"These novels will give way, by and by, to diaries or
>>autobiographies--captivating books, if only a man knew how to choose
>>among what he calls his experiences that which is really his
>>experience, and how to record truth truly."
>
>Pipe dream, baby...Once you start throwing subjective emotion into the mix, it
>starts teetering on the edge of fiction. (Sidenote, the word "truth" tends to
>get thrown around haphazardly...)
>
Uh, can I say without getting yelled at: "oooohhh how postmodern..."
To be further postmodern, what is the mark or marks of authenticity
that make a work "non fiction". I would assume honestly speaking of
one's emotions however subjective is at least in theory "non-fiction".
Now if one makes up a fantasy lover, then maybe it is fiction as one
created that "character" but I did not create my ex-girlfriend so I
would assume writing about her is non-fiction and not a pipedream. Now
whether one could call it "fair and accurate" or "possible to enter as
forensic evidence" well that's a different story.
Probably this summer there maybe written a number of very emotion
laden books on child abduction. I doubt any of those will get the
label nofiction. An aside here: Ya know those little factoids that go:
"every nn seconds or nn minetes another x-person has nasty-thing-yy
happen to them..." any idea how any of those things are found out?
created? or dare I say "constructed".
>
>>*"Literature happens when a conscience in touch with humanity defies
>>the legal set-up what obtain." --Nelson Algren
>
>Nelson Algren? He wrote fictional novels, didn't he?
>
>Anyway, just a thought,
>
>Cullen
>
>
My hope is that zine-ing stay a moderate literary movement and not
become the next big thing. Those usual are the proverbial cat's meow
for awhile then dissappear into security.
Speaking of the above I do hold that zine-ing is often very honest and
authentic. Whether I can prove this belief solidly is an open
question.
Have Fun,
Sends Steve
Steve Kudlak
wrote:
Whoops!!! In the above it should have been stated that no matter how
emotional books about child abduction get are not going to be, or
should be labeled fiction. The book "Michele Remembers" is still
listed as non-fiction in spite of there being grave doubts of the
factuaal thruth of the matter. Uh, remember the whole McMartin
Preschool Fiasco and legends of a conspiracy of Satanic Cults
sacrificing children etc. Well again I am blathering too much and
getting far afield....
Have Fun,
Sends Steve
TomHendricks474
>become the next big thing. Those usual are the proverbial cat's meow
>for awhile then dissappear into security.
Not me. Imagine if the maverick Impressionist painters that began the complete
alteration of painting, were just a moderate art movement - we'd still be stuck
with Salon painting today.
I think it is imperative that we reach out with zines. That like any golden age
of art - they be shown to the world. I don't think it should be a small clique
at all. I think it should be literature that the whole world can have a chance
to read, enjoy, and appreciate. And that in turn also influences the whole
world in a positive way.
There have been numerous small literary movements that were more promotion than
substance. Those I wish would have stayed quiet too. And sincerely we haven't
had much good anything literary - in a while.
Novels were great in the 19th century. And there was some spill over to the
20th - but towards the last half of the 1900's - yikes!
Short stories probably reached their height with Checkov or Maupassant, poetry
since Whitman has been mostly drivel - and unreadable drivel at that. Hopefully
my poetry invention of 'the quatro' or something else new, may spur something
fresh to replace the poetry as meanngless - movement.
Drama - not a golden age. The 19th cent. was great at visuals more than
language with the best of film and tv. etc.
What zines do and do well (sort of reminds me of Japanese prints that were done
by the poorer side of town in Japan and then later caught on world wide) is do
something more than just content. It is content and context. Just as important
to the content of a zine is the artful and artistic package it is printed in.
A zine is a new type of literary publication. Never before has a single author
(at least not on this mass scale) been able to do the entire book to his
artistic vision and from his own hand. Is it an artwork? yes . Is it a book?
yes. Is it text and content and illustration? yes. And more importantly zines
are all of the above. Never before has that happened. And when you do something
totally different then you have innovation. Innovation with literary talent
makes zines a real golden age of literature. And as my comments above show - it
is long overdue IMO.
Tom Hendricks, ed. of Musea
http://musea.digitalchainsaw.com
To see the weasel list: of corp. art:
http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html
Vlorbik
>drivel - and unreadable drivel at that.
-- readable drivel from a past master.
on the one hand, of *course* it has:
just as it was *before* whitman.
likewise, movies have been mostly drivel
since their invention . . . but no decade
has gone without a few classics.
i hold no brief for poetry god knows.
but hell, tom, who have you even read?
auden, jeffers, e. a. robinson, cummings?
*anybody*? -- these boys could write
rings around any of us here.
http://members.aol.com/vlorbik/
Dan
> >become the next big thing. Those usual are the proverbial cat's meow
> >for awhile then dissappear into security.
Weren't zines already the next big thing about 5 years ago? I doubt the
mainstream attention will hit like that again...
> I think it is imperative that we reach out with zines. That like any golden age
> of art - they be shown to the world. I don't think it should be a small clique
> at all. I think it should be literature that the whole world can have a chance
> to read, enjoy, and appreciate.
> And that in turn also influences the whole
> world in a positive way.
Yeah, nice pipe dream there dude. Over here on Planet Reality, zines are
about self-publishing, creating your own forum for your voice, rather than
relying on someone else to provide it for you. I doubt the goal of many
zines is as hippy as trying to influence the whole world in a positive
way...
> What zines do and do well (sort of reminds me of Japanese prints that were done
> by the poorer side of town in Japan and then later caught on world wide) is do
> something more than just content. It is content and context. Just as important
> to the content of a zine is the artful and artistic package it is printed in.
I disagree - content is more important. We use photocopiers or 20 year old
offset presses, it doesn't look beautiful, it's cheap. Sure, it's nice to
make things pretty, but I absolutely detest zines that are artful and
nothing else. I buy zines to read them, not to look at them, they are not
TV.
I also hate people throwing around the word literature with zines. It
makes zines seem a lot more high brow then they are. To me, zines to
literature is like graffiti to classic art. Zines come from the fringes of
society, the street, the artists, the musicians, the freaks, the punks,
the geeks. They aren't about writing some great novel, they are about
capturing the here and now and fighting for your little slice of the
media pie where you creat the space for your ideas to be heard... Is that
literature? Not to me, a few people may try to elevate their zines to that
level, but I think when they do their zines become boring, dry, and lose
some of the essence of what a zine is. A zine is not a magazine, it's not
a book, and it sure as hell isn't a lit journal. A zine is something in
and of itself... -dan
TomHendricks474
>drivel - and unreadable drivel at that.
-- readable drivel from a past master.
on the one hand, of *course* it has:
just as it was *before* whitman.
likewise, movies have been mostly drivel
since their invention . . . but no decade
has gone without a few classics.
That is true, but there are golden ages (ex. Greek poetry/plays etc.,
Shakespeare's era, Impressionist painters, etc.) and there is drought.
i hold no brief for poetry god knows.
but hell, tom, who have you even read?
auden, jeffers, e. a. robinson, cummings?
*anybody*? -- these boys could write
rings around any of us here.
Your standards are too low. go to my website and check out my list of 10 best
poets. Excuse the pun but the 20th cent was a 'Wasteland' IMO. Each of those
you list had some works that were certainly better than their contemporaries -
I'd list Frost with numerous fine poems. But otherwise, I'm not that enamored
with their work or the century.
Better examples -the period after Basho in Japan was much more lasting for the
haiku it produced - and before that the Tang dynasty for Tu Fu and Li Po, and
that is even without considering all the other Tang poet contemporaries. The
Romantic poets of Europe, etc.
http://members.aol.com/vlorbik/
Kelly Dessaint
"Dan" <t...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
> I also hate people throwing around the word literature with zines. It
> makes zines seem a lot more high brow then they are. To me, zines to
> literature is like graffiti to classic art. Zines come from the fringes of
> society, the street, the artists, the musicians, the freaks, the punks,
> the geeks. They aren't about writing some great novel, they are about
> capturing the here and now and fighting for your little slice of the
> media pie where you creat the space for your ideas to be heard... Is that
> literature? Not to me, a few people may try to elevate their zines to that
> level, but I think when they do their zines become boring, dry, and lose
> some of the essence of what a zine is. A zine is not a magazine, it's not
> a book, and it sure as hell isn't a lit journal. A zine is something in
> and of itself...
I totally agree. Even though I have pretty much always done lit publishing
(except a few comics), that's what I felt when I discovered my first zine. I
had already done a few lit journal type things, school newsletters and
papers, spent most of my life with my face in a book. And listening to punk
rock. So I just merged the two ideas. DIY & literature. That's always been
my focus. And then many years ago, I found this zine in a flyer pile at a
used bookstore. It was a complete piece of crap, the copier toner was coming
off, the staples were all crooked, the result of using a regular stapler to
create a saddle stitch. All typewritten and cut and pasted, crooked usually.
It was dedicated to the pawnbroker that sold her the typewriter with only a
few missing letters. But I admired it more than anything I knew I could
create myself. I have a much cleaner design vision. I don't have an eye for
randomness. So I couldn't make a zine like that without it looking strained.
And I ultimately prefer the design of books. I'm designing a "magazine"
right now, and I'm just making it look like a book.
Still, I feel more of a kindred spirit with people who make zines than lit
geeks or literary self publishers. And I wouldn't spend more than 10 seconds
in the same room as somebody who said they were on their way to being the
best poet since Whitman. Or who talk about "movements." I have bowel
movements every day. And I feel lucky.
The other thing about zines, they defy solidarity. And they are anarchic.
Kelly
Dr.Calvin
> makes zines seem a lot more high brow then they are. To me, zines to
> literature is like graffiti to classic art. Zines come from the fringes of
> society, the street, the artists, the musicians, the freaks, the punks,
> the geeks. They aren't about writing some great novel, they are about
> capturing the here and now and fighting for your little slice of the
> media pie where you creat the space for your ideas to be heard... Is that
> literature? Not to me, a few people may try to elevate their zines to that
> level, but I think when they do their zines become boring, dry, and lose
> some of the essence of what a zine is. A zine is not a magazine, it's not
> a book, and it sure as hell isn't a lit journal. A zine is something in
> and of itself... -dan
Damn dan, do you give boners for a living or is it a hobby? Would you
be horrible opposed if I used this in my zine? Credit would go to you
naturally.
Dr.Calvin
Ninj
>The other thing about zines, they defy solidarity. And they are anarchic.
Let us pledge now that zines will stand together and defy solidarity
forever.
King Wenclas
indistinguishable from literary journals--polished, well-aligned,
ISBN's, the whole nine--the opposite of what Dan is speaking about.
And let's not hear you claiming to be anarchic. That's a joke. You've
been arguing for ONE way of numbering and tracking things; universal;
MANDATORY in fact. Pay a fee to have the right to be published--but
publishing is a natural right independent of R.E. Bowker company or
any regulatory agency. Anarchy means diversity, in my book: not just
one system, but a lot of systems. Theoretically not as efficient as
your Internationalized system--but then, weren't both fascism and
Communism touted as being efficient?
King Wenclas, who is anti-the current publishing industry, and
trying to think of ways to create an alternative.
Question Everything.
(p.s. Membership in the ULA is purely voluntary.)
Kelly Dessaint
something I didn't even state or imply in what I wrote. Can you be any more
of a moron? (You don't have to answer that question either.)
Kelly
"King Wenclas" <kingw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5e44efd7.02082...@posting.google.com...
Dan
> Damn dan, do you give boners for a living or is it a hobby? Would you
> be horrible opposed if I used this in my zine? Credit would go to you
> naturally.
> Dr.Calvin
My new job is alt.zines fluffer. Use it or lose it... -dan
Dan
newspaper, instead of a zine, for the past two years. I like it's cleaner
design and the fact that it has a much wider audience, but also am much
more of a zinester still than a newspaper writer/editor/publisher... and I
determined this weekend I need to get my shit together and somehow find
the time on top of the job and paper, to do another issue of my zine. In
the middle of a punk show in the pit this weekend, a guy grabbed me and
said "You're Dan Halligan right? You did 10 Things, man, the scene here
died when you stopped putting that zine out. That was a great zine." Ouch,
that was a motivating moment for me... -dan