Why Folk Painting but not Folk Writing?
Jeff Potter
but there's absolutely ZILCH in the way of folk WRITING.
Not only that but being prolific in the folk painting scene is seen as
amazing and neat. But this is not a value that is allowed to cross over
to writing. Writing is never seen as something that can be done as one
would hay a field: with lots of hard work producing lots of results. In
folk painting, this is cool.
--
Jeff Potter j...@outyourbackdoor.com
"Out Your Backdoor": Friendly Zine of Modern Folkways and Culture
Revival outyourbackdoor.com ... for a full line of alternative
outdoor culture books, bookstore & forum
Shady Lady Sky
it. -- http://shadyladysky.tripod.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Potter
Don't get what?
...That folk art painting is cool and that folk writing doesn't exist and
that's weird...?
Which part?
(Your 'Reply' mode isn't set right, or handled right or something.)
--Jeff Potter, publisher, Out Your Backdoor Press: huge, friendly website
about modern folkways and culture revival. Books, bookstore, forum,
zines, bikes, boats, art, literature. http://outyourbackdoor.com/oyb
Jeff Potter
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2000 09:21:12 -0400, Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.com> wrote:
>
> >I wonder why folk painting is serious, popular, studied and valuable,
> >but there's absolutely ZILCH in the way of folk WRITING.
> One is collected by elitist urban assholes and the other is an Indictment of
> what's wrong with elitist urban assholes
Howard Finster is a very popular folk artist who includes written rants against
modernism in his artwork. I see quite a few visual folk artists who get down on
modern ills in their art. Their art celebrates the opposite of minimall reality.
Yet yuppies who build minimalls buy it.
The Heidelberg Project is about urban revival, somewhat.
Why wouldn't folk WRITING about urban revival find an audience?
I would think that jaded people would find the writing to be fresh, without
jargon.
But maybe it would be too direct?
Finsters autobiography is a GREAT GREAT read. It's very valuable as well. I
think that when the folk painters write that it goes over fine. But to try to be
'just' a writer....it looks to be a no-go situation in folksville.
Michael Crye
the recording of oral history or stories. Which usually attempts to somehow
hold the local language and style of the speaker in its words. On the other
hand if folk writing is our daily writing ... that begins to cover the realm
of letters, email, and other forms of interaction. Not that we should
include the checks we write to pay bills into this ... though such records
have been used historically in context with ancient cultures ... I seem to
recall reading that the only written notes we have of Sumerian(?) cultures
turned out to be accounting and trade records. Would not graffiti and icons
start to become members of this folk writing. Or even the terms and symbols
used by groups in daily writing ... such as email notes. Slang of course
comes to mind. I could be on the wrong track with this. But, curious on
where you are heading with the term Folk Writing.
crye
Michael Crye
reread some of the classics ... such as Moby Dick, Lord Jim, and the ghost
stories of M.R.James. They used a language
that is nearly extinct by our measure of the language. Are you referring to
a more older writing style as opposed to the increasing fast forward
appoarch to langauage and information that is currently available. I think
one of the sad elements of our culture is the lack of explained facts ... in
the fact we drop them without referring to sources or even explaining them
in any detail. As mentioned in reading Moby Dick ... large parts of the
novel are rambling statements on history or science with references to other
books and artists. It is a bit interesting. I remember being a teenager
and reading a book by Stephen King called Danse Macabre where he rambles for
pages about authors and writers. Afterwards I looked up many of these
authors in their own right. It becomes more of transfer of ideas and
sharing of tradition in which one traces roots ... sure it was just the
horror genre ... but it is a good example of finding great things through
one writer and working your way backwards.
"Jeff Potter" <j...@glpbooks.com> wrote in message
news:39E07A8D...@glpbooks.com...
Shady Lady Sky
Jeff Potter <j...@glpbooks.com> wrote:
> In article <8roslc$auf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Shady Lady Sky <poor...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > it.
>
>
> ...That folk art painting is cool and that folk writing doesn't exist and
> that's weird...?
>
> Which part?
>
> (Your 'Reply' mode isn't set right, or handled right or something.)
>
> --Jeff Potter, publisher, Out Your Backdoor Press: huge, friendly website
> about modern folkways and culture revival. Books, bookstore, forum,
> zines, bikes, boats, art, literature. http://outyourbackdoor.com/oyb
>
I thought it was the other way around. I never even heard of folk painting,
and I thought folk writing did exist cuz ain't that the same as folk song
lyrics?
I don't know about no reply modes either.
Jeff Potter
Good question! But you seem to be off on archeology, with an emphasis on trace
remains and analysis thereof. Are you in college?
Let's see, folk art is usually related to what is called naive, uneducated,
outsider art or art brut (French). It comes up from the grassroots of a
culture. Typically, we see folk painting (Howard Finster, Woody Long, Grandma
Moses, Heidelberg Project guy, etc.) and folk music (bluegrass, gospel, etc.).
There are a couple magazines devoted to the subject of visual folk art---"Raw
Vision" and...I forget the other one. They also get into the art of inmates of
all types. Slave art. It's a BIG MONEY scene. There's a lot of serious artsy
analysis going on about it.
Anyway, what's it all about? I think that Folk Art is what local people use to
stay connected to their roots. It's shared freely. The topics seem to be
family, getting thru tough times, keeping their heads on straight, celebrating
everyday life despite trials and tribulations. It's populist. Indigenous? --So
I guess it probably usually includes aboriginal art. It's art that a local
population uses for cultural integration.
Another characteristic seems to be that in this field it's very much OK if
you're prolific. Both Finster and Long seem to like to number their work and
it's in the tens of thousands of paintings done. Folk art is heartfelt, not
polished (so much). Since it often relates to WORK, I guess it makes sense that
it's done with a workman's ethic: crank it out!
I think that the art dealers love mainly the SINCERITY and freshness of this
work. It seems by definition not to be done for money. It's from people who
don't know that it could be done for money. However, when such an artist
becomes known sometimes they kick out the jams, as I said, and start making
TONS of such art. The dealers love this, too. Look at im go! Maybe there's this
'lack of irony' thing that they like as well. They also dig that many of these
artists say they're responding to a Calling.
I just can't see why all this can't also apply to writing. But there isn't a
single 'classic of folk literature' that I know of. And prolificness today in
writing isn't too respectable. I also don't see why it can't apply to an
educated person.
In another post, Michael Crye wrote:
> Now I think I see some of your angle ... you know I recently went back and
> reread some of the classics ... such as Moby Dick, Lord Jim, and the ghost
> stories of M.R.James. They used a language
> that is nearly extinct by our measure of the language. [ ]
> in any detail. As mentioned in reading Moby Dick ... large parts of the
> novel are rambling statements on history or science with references to other
> books and artists. It is a bit interesting. I remember being a teenager
> and reading a book by Stephen King called Danse Macabre where he rambles for
> pages about authors and writers. Afterwards I looked up many of these
> authors in their own right. It becomes more of transfer of ideas and
> sharing of tradition in which one traces roots [ ]
Wow! How did you get that from what I wrote? It's cool anyway. Moby Dick uses
what they call Biblical style. Lord Jim maybe does as well, but also Conrad
really leans on the storyteller---usually his books start out with a guy saying
Well, here's what happened... It's very direct. Both are rare these days!
---Cormac McCarthy does Biblical really well, though. I don't know MRJames.
I find quite a few writers to be culturally useful. --Where I learn about
history, books, food, religion and movies in their work. The best writer by far
for this, of course, is Jack Saunders. He refers to the details of our cultural
heritage constantly, uses them like weaving. Asks questions based on them. He's
the Salvage Archeologist of the Mall-Builder Culture, so he has to! It's his
job. Well, his calling anyway. Both from life today and from our cultural
background: he uses books, music, movies, news, food, corporations, malls,
chainstores, history, tv. This can also be one of the great things about
reading a DIVERSE zine!
I do think that folk writing would always be about real life, in plain
language. So that it would include details and name names. It wouldn't be shy.
It would thank someone for helping the People and put the coals on someone else
for keeping them down. Folk music about miners, for instance, would include
real details about mining. Same thing with union songs.
Howard Finster says there are no outsider artists; he says artists are workers;
is there such things as an outsider car mechanic? ---But it's weird coz those
who run the Folk Art scene won't listen to him. However, I suppose there is
debate about it. Maybe they just use it as a term of convenience: like the
Hudson School of painting or the Arts and Crafts style of design. Still, it
seems a subject that's ripe for continuous exploration.
Our local folk music festivals seem to be getting a lot less folk and much more
professional and much less related to any local roots and much more
entertainment oriented. Are cops and arm-bands 'folk'?
It's probably good to see other folk traditions, but maybe only after you're
dialed in on your own. Swedish cowherd dancers might be folk but they're not
folk to me or to this area. One can misuse folk, like anything else. I would
think it would be hardest to misuse folk WRITING.
Michael Crye
have to follow the thread)
Have you ever read The Bridge on the Drina ... its a serbia novel ... widely
translated. It is the story of a single town and a single bridge built
there by the Turks in the 1500's .. but the novel traces the entire history
of the area by the bridge and the stories and traditions and tales that
remained with the people over the span of the time. It is for the most part
literature leaning ... so it fails to become folklore per say ... but it is
an interesting take on historical ... in the fact that it is a novel that
translates the folklore and people into the story. A good use of the genre.
But, where I'm going on this ... I grew in the southern parts of the country
... and there is a mass of this idea of folk writing going on as you define
it ... though I think you would find it a bit boring. Take for instance the
family history books that is popular among some retirees down there ...
basic straight prose ... detail ... detail ... detail ... recording family
history ... or even the home compiled cookbooks ... where a mother sits down
and creates a single volume of recipes for their family. Usually written in
their own hand or style. Some times colorful even. Church bulletins come
to mind ... for they usually contain little stories and lessons written by
the editor (though that is a loose term). Another thing that comes to mind
are opinion letters written to newspapers ... esp. the ones that sound sort
of uneducated and straight opinion. More common in a generation or two back
though ... but there are plenty. Other sources which have been a goldmine
for folklorist and historians include obits for the dead written by the
family. In some sense I also think of the simple personal essays written by
kids in Jr. and High school ... they always have something about it ...
almost like diary entries. Diaries come to the most mind ... journals of
sorts. They capture the best of that ...
As for Folk Writing ... it does exist too some extent. Go to a bookstore
(even a chain) and go to the local section ... and you are bound to find
some very simple histories, memiors, and story collections. Often
self-published. Though in some instances the collections of ghost stories
and legends you find there fit in that style ... esp the regional
collections. Most of them are slim volumes and very simple reads. But, the
link to work is still missing ... except for the examples of cookbooks ...
basically folk writing exists ... even a per-zine would be along those lines
... jotted notes and opinions ... but even folk art as you mention it ...
isn't exactly work related ... often it was the decoration involved in
painting the handmade chests or such. I recall stopping at a local folk art
museum at one of the mountain colleges when visiting back there once and
seeing all these cases and trunks that they had made and decorated with
these odd scenes ... usually bibical or pastures ... lots of 2-D houses and
sometimes a scene of hell and its sinners. There is a huge market these
days in old handmade furniture ... ironic to think something that a poor
cracker made from cast offs suddenly costs the price of a decent used car.
There is also the fake folk art ... which includes painting anything from a
farm ... or creating cute and friendly things in the workshop. But, these
are more ideals and decor then true folk art ... I can tell you most of the
old farm tools I remember rusting in old shacks ... not being hung on walls
and painted. Though the art of mailbox decorating is apparently an old
tradition.
As for folklorist ... from my experience they are a closed knit group ...
with little outside contact ... though it is funny since the founders were
all hobbiest or curious minds who are now responsible for the mass majority
of the preserved knowledge and stories ... I suppose its a thing about
importance.
So that is more of my loose thoughts -- a bit rough -- but time is fleeting
today
... sorry never made it through college either ... lasted a year -- many
years ago -- I read alot.
The Blender Child
understanding the meaning of "folk" writer. She has a book of short stories
out entitled a Piece of Mine.
Is Toni Morrison a folk writer? I would consider her too.
Actually I think John lennon did some little stories that would be
considered "folk"
The thing about writing in a style people would consider to be naive is that
the commonality of the message may get lost in the choice of the words.
It's the same commonality of humanness that we "get" when looking at fold
art. It's sort of puts the genre of folk writing in a catch 22 situation
eh? How can a writer best capture rustic tone without losing
understandabilty and universality.
The trouble with folk writing is that generally the real "folks" aren't the
ones doing the writing...but they are the ones being written about. And so
the stories become bastardized.
Another thing to ponder here is this...often times primitive art is created
by people who may have no ability to write and no one near to interpret or
in some way recognize the tales as important and get them down on paper!
Lea Ann
Jeff Potter
I like those regional items you mention. Maybe the trick is to find those who
are skilled enough at it that it jumps from the particular to the general. That
it uses its local roots to tell universal tales of importance. I think that
Howard Finster art does that, for instance. His writing does as well.
Maybe a lot of that regional stuff does. I think it might, as long as it is
sincere and honest enough. I know that MANY regional types of writers these
days are CATERING TO A MARKET! UGH UGH! Especially those who write about the
outdoor life, hunting and fishing of an area. They get all sentimental. They
want to be seen as boosters. They would be very uncomfortable writing candidly.
Actually, it's hard to be candid unless you're compelled to. ---Which is where
this cool folk art that is most popular comes from. I just think there's some
writing that fits in this category as well. But I really think that it is KEPT
DOWN.
Speaking of family memoirs, my aunt wrote up the stories that her husband (my
blood uncle) told her about growing up. A very nice book full of the wildest
tales. They were a dirt poor family of 8 kids and they lived wilder than wild
down in the holler, makin do, growin their own and gettin by. What a great
read! ---They woulda surely been broken up by DSS nowadays.
The J Man
the work of the great Roger Hayes:
Jeff Potter
> Here is a link to one of the best *outsider* or Art Brut galleries. . .includes
> the work of the great Roger Hayes:
Jack Saunders' latest hero is named "Art Brew." Get it?
Michael Crye
and sisters. It included bits on how they met, where they lived, conditions
during the Depression and other items. It was very simple and a bit
sedimental of course, but interesting. For it encompassed a feeling of the
area in general. Including the old farms around Lexington, KY ... and
included the way they saw changes and events in history on a personal level.
I saw some similar things in the letters that a German teacher I knew was
translating for a group in the same area. They were letters of historical
significance due to the fact the american german community during WWI were
busy convincing America to join the Axis against the French and British. So
here are world events transpiring between a small german family in Southern
Kentucky and their family members back in Germany. Perhaps that is part of
good folk art in general. When a touch of it goes beyond simply a personal
narrative or manages to overcome its unpracticed hand and becomes a bit
universal and important to those that read it. I think its important to see
good folk art as a bridge and in the personal satisfaction/conviction of the
person creating it.
I have a number of folk lore books ... some of the best are just collections
of data gathered from journals in the 20's and 30's when the Big Deal
converted many intelligent folks without jobs into roaming reporters for the
preserving of american lore. Some deal with talking to moonshine stillers,
backwoods communities, or folk remedies. Oddly enough the best writers of
this group were women ... which I think is important ... though it had
little to do with equal thinking on part of these enclaves of hidden people
... but the fact that they didn't see the interviewers as dangerous or
threatening and yet were amazed a bit by the personalities in question to
these women who were independent and going out to the swamp where the men
usually only go. So all the sudden they find themselves spilling their
secrets ... out of old respect structures toward women and also out of the
interest they had in this breed of woman who was seemly out of their way
extra-ordinary to them. Meanwhile if the interviewee was another woman ...
the newcomer becomes another member of the confidence circle.
In essence of my research of folklore it becomes obvious that these
archetypes and traditions are important to art and communication. We place
hidden values and connection on these traits and in many senses we began to
feel something in common with the writers who tap those strands of common
myth. Though in my book I separate myth and folklore ... seeing myth as an
ideal that is unobtainable (The American Dream -- work hard and it will be
rewarded with two cars and a house, Nazi Nationalism -- ideal images of
racial right, Larger Than Life Gods -- that there are powers we can not
question which act as a control mechanism on the whole) vs the folklore
which gives human properties to god/gods (stories of Brier Rabbit talking to
God one on one, the devil running afoul of human affairs with his own profit
(the many devil daughters/lover stories, Devil and Daniel Webster), the
Bridge on Drena having qualities as a member of the community figure --
which allow it to be Serbian, Bosnian, Muslin, Christian, and Gypsy all at
once -- always a link to the future and the past at once) and also reveal
common struggles and problems as well as the things we do daily for pleasure
or work. There is honesty. One of the worst things about modern folklore
study is that it tries to push folklore into myth territory. As well as
trying to cut the universal roots ... some african-american circles denying
outside influence on southern culture of freed slaves as opposed to the all
encompassing african connection.
Once you study it you start seeing the intermingling of cultures and the
shared conscience at work. I often like to use Rawhead-And-Bloody-Bones ...
it appears a number of times in sources recorded about Voodoo figures. Yet,
Rawhead is a Irish invention (a house spirit) ... however if you trace the
voodoo trail back to Haiti and then look at history ... you come across the
fact that Irish were the original labor of the island plantations -- well
the ones used after the local population of natives were exhausted ... irish
were imported via indenture servants or hired in a process just short of
slavery ... when the Potatoe Famine was at its high mark ... and the irish
were taking any method to escape the circumstances ... when the irish ran
out then came the african slaves ... and I can imagine that there was a
period of mingling on the farms where the belief systems crossed over ...
and wedded. The fact that hoodoo (a slight southern american version of
voodoo -- more dilluted in fact) shows signs of jewish kaballah influence in
reference to psalms as wards and some language ... This is traced back to
the catalogs of certain mail order companies in NJ and PA ... that also had
simple kaballah items in the back ... rough translations of the work ...
candles and other accessories ... these were picked up and used by the
various black communities in the south ... esp. in those who happened to
make a living as housekeepers at the time for wealthy families ... who
traded in slavery for low wages. As the market was found the catalogs
expanded in the selections. Since at the same time in America there was a
huge mystic front going on in way of spirit guides and such -- and kaballah
with its secrets and promises of golem, words of power, and higher secrets
were growing in interest in study. Nor, is it wrong to point out on some of
the so-called Delta Jews who settled in the south and were some of the first
documented to hire blacks for jobs such as cashiers and more public
positions. Also they tended to be civic minded and thus gained many public
offices and managed to create a very unfavorable climate for the KKK in some
of the towns... whose wrath would come down on them in time -- such as the
Frank case. Not to say things were Kosher in such relationships but there
was some peaceful and proactive events at play.
History like folklore is seldom politically correct ... and it is unfair to
judge or rewrite it for your own esteem or profit. But, at the same time its
honesty is what must be preserved ... and the candid apporach of the
untrained writers comes to mind ... but then there is the use of the
folklore and regionalism that show up in so many great writers and art
movements. A lot of people have died in the course of history to make other
people rich ... it matters little to question the skin or religous aspects.
Since the poor will always be made to work and be taxed for the stronger.
Suffering as well as dreams of wealth are universal and will always pursued
be by humans whether we want it or not.
Like explaining to my lesbian friend that a long letter from her old friend
about her religous view on her homosexuality has only one clear answer as
response ... in that she does not follow the same dogma as her friend. It
does not excuse the judgement of the friend, but it at the same time does
not have to defend herself only in the christian context. If you don't
explain yourself in your own context with your own love and self-respect
intact ... how can it be accepted. Defending yourself in such instances is
where you must define your own view of the world ... and in it find common
ground that goes beyond the surface of the body of political and religous
... you must create a bond in your words that escape the rheotic ... like
explaining the warmth of being with her partner, by showing the common place
things they do together, by talking of their plans ... not fighting with
tired deadends of arguing words written thousands of years ago ... and
translated over and over again by unknown hands from various languages. Not
even latin always has the same meanings to the words and phrases over time
... and it is easy to garble the words in so many hands. So you must fight
with your existence ... the fact you are there and going no where ... and
that she has everything her happily married friend has ... that the course
of events has only one difference ... but one underlying truth ... both
couples are in love.
Outsider art is a bogus enigma ... it can't be called outsider for it in its
own way has a community ... if it happens not to be the majority or the
center of attention is just a condition ... the way you can go to clubs and
garages across america and see what music will be popular in about 2-3
years. Things filter up ... from the personal and small circles to the mass
above ... it might not remain pure ... but it does rise ... not always
quickly ... or in single strands (as seen in the beats ... existing in
several bouts of public awareness).
The greatest generation gap in america at the moment if the speed in which
we absorb information ... I took some kids other day to see the new Digimon
movie ... and they were totally in the flipped out timing and feed of
information where most of the parents I spoke to later were exhausted from
the experience -- if not confused. Baffled by the animation, the story
jumps, and the way if all bled through scene after scene. Compare it to a
Disney film where every scene is measured by audience response and crossing
age groups. Where everything is explained in slow details that smack of
stating the obvious. As in the fact that Digimon was just simply written
and executed for a certain wedge of viewers -- where action is cut with
information displays -- separate realities exist (ala The Matrix) -- and
where stories sometimes leave some points dangling with the hidden detail
that no story ever ends -- nor do the links on web pages and sometimes we
never find out -- so you must be selective and follow what you have. And
this fast forward approach to absorbing data will only increase. And the
gap will develop where one generation won't be throw by the ideas of the
next generation but by the means of being unable to follow their means of
transferring these thoughts.
At one time in America generations were measured by 10-20 year gaps ... now
I think it is more like 5 years where economic and technology change in
burst of years. And we continue to absorb the growing history behind us
with the new stream of culture and daily life ahead of us. There is still
alot of regionalism ... but at the same time ... people move around more now
and can reach other points without being there ... so the world shrinks ...
but it is still place and time that makes scenes and movements ... who was
there and the feelings they shared. Community need not be restricted to
geography or face to face reactions ... even our zines are each their own
community. I was recently look at Rowe's Book of Zines ... and saw the old
Cometbus item ...Punk Rock Live Is ... I idenitified and loved every moment
of it ... I never met the author or been to many of the places he has ...
but I know the climate and ideas ... how is that not folk writing ... if it
touches the most common aspects of my own past and thinking by example
without having to set it up or even present it in any form but a list of
events. And it would be stupid not to declare Cometbus as a success in
zines and as writing. For it is built on experience and living ... but not
filled with convincing you of anything but this happened to me and it
happens to you.
I moved to Seattle this year ... and having spent all my time in the
midwest, south, and NYC ... I must admit there is a different vibe here ...
and yet I find people who manners and speech are different, but when we
record music or talk we find ourselves drawn to a certain thing that is the
sum of our parts. So it isn't so much as the places we have been ... but
what we are carrying with us. If you ever ended up in a one horse town and
found that there was a hidden under current of culture there ... you know
what I mean. Things happen on many levels ... and to say one thing is not
part of the lore or region but another is ... is more on the level of saying
this is good and that sucks. I think we should maybe look closer at why
things work and less at justifying things that don't seem to work.
Like my statement earlier in the thread that graffiti comes into the folk
painting realm ... is it not personal (esp. the straight tags) ... and is it
not a reflection and written in some what of a local condition. Yet every
once in a while you are a bus stop or walking along and see something that
strike you ... even if it is just the color or choice of location. Here in
Seattle they decorate the bus stops in drawings by children ... looking at
these themes and ideas through a child's hand piled in rows you start to
feel something ... primitve and at the same time well practiced to the limit
but naive at the same time. And I often think of the better folk art I've
seen around ... and notice the similar uses of shape and colors ...
perspectives ... and even ideas. Things made simple by the process of
creation without interrupting the flow with style or heavy thought on the
subject. In the end folk art is a label as folk lore is for history ... and
history for living but in a different tense. The arguement will always be
what works ... and what doesn't. Popular ficiton will always deal with
basic desires (justice, horror, adventure) ... and popular music will always
be about beat in some sense ... the methods will change (just try to break
dance to Mozart) ... but in essence there is something very basic going on
... so in all this talk of high thought vs common handiwork ... and regional
vs universal ... I end with the meat of a quote from Umberto Eco's
Foucault's Pendulum (a overly complex novel on simple discourses) ... minus
a couple lines so my tired typing hand doesn't a have work too much more,
nor do I have to fight with keeping a paperback edition open while typing
one handed.
"[sic] Proust was right: life is represented better represented by bad
music than by a Missa solemnis. Great art makes fun of us as it comforts
us, because it shows us the world as the artists would like the world to be.
The dime novel, however, pretends to joke, but then it shows us the world as
it actually is -- or at least the world as it will become. [sic]
Shakespeare, Melville, Balzac, and Dostoyevski all wrote sensational
fiction. [sic]
The fact is, it's easier for reality to imitate the dime novel than to
imitate art. Being a Mona Lisa is hard work; becoming Milady follows our
natural tendency to choose the easy way."
Jeff Potter
Jeff Potter
asha anderson wrote:
> [ ]
> Most zines are folk writing. What's the big deal? If they are not
> particularly noteworthy it's no ones fault but the writer. Anyway,
> I don't get the sentimental cry of injustice in this thread. There is
> no big conspiracy to deprive folk writers of recognition.
...Then there should be some famous folk writers just as there are famous
folk artists. I'm just wondering why there isn't. Not sure it's
'injustice.' I'll gladly consider other options.
What makes folk art great is when it jumps up from the particular to the
universal (without leaving the particular). This usually seems to happen
when the artist declares that he was compelled to make the art.
I agree 100% that most of it would be bad, forgettable, derivative.
That's fine. It's just that there have been standouts in the visual folk
arts, and in music. Why has writing not been included?
Michael Crye just wrote something amazing and huge. But it still doesn't
really seem to speak to how folk art works. The two famous folk painters
I've checked out (Finster and Long) are 'self starters.' The great
collections of folk lore are just that: some college person sees that a
certain chunk of lore is worth preserving. But for things to be parallel,
you'd have folk writers themselves putting the work out.
I agree that zining is folk art. Maybe someday a zinester will make the
jump up and be considered to be as important as an insane asylum inmates
watercolors! ---Remember, art people consider visual folk art to be
significant contributions to culture. But no folk writer has been
admitted to that level. No art people YET admit that Cometbus, say, is a
special development in culture and history. Really, man, ain't it
something how much they're missing out on? None of those people have even
glanced at Factsheet 5 or Gogglebox or Pathetic Life and they think they
have the trends and influences on culture doped out from top to bottom.
The Blender Child
Lea Ann
The Blender Child
it called? Something like that.
Lea Ann
Michael Crye
more on the long side rather then the amazing side of your comments.
As to the point I was trying to make ... was the fact that I think all good
writers deal with folk writing ... otherwise they would never connect with
thier readers. It is true that most popular movies and novels deal with the
myth ... the way we wish things turned out ... sort of like Norman Rockwell
... but then he painted in another time ... today we would call it a part of
the american myth ... but then it was more of peoples' hopes. It had to do
with their dreams that is why he was accepted so well and left his mark.
But, even Shakespeare (or Bacone if you go that route) used old stories to
make his plots ... what is Romeo and Juliet but an old murder ballad.
Hamlet is based on old Danish stories ... I suppose Zoale Hurtson would be a
good example of a folk writer since all of her background came from her folk
lore study (enough street credit to have her picture up on the Barnes and
Noble murals) ... all her novels and folk lore collections deal with the
african american and southern cultures ... though she spent most of that
time in NYC and Chicago and traveled southward to do research ... before her
life took its turns downward. But Their Eyes Were Watching God, Mules and
Men (a straight folk lore collection), and Moses Man of the Mountain (the
tale of Moses with african american undertones, language, and background)
all are steeped in the folk culture.
Of course this thread deals with popularity ... which is a rough trade to
give value. It is possible to be valued and have fame and be iqnored by the
majority... I think of the way Jesse Stewart (a notable folk writer) is
widely known in the area I grew up (they name things after him) ... but
nearly unknown else where. It is a matter of preception ... if you wait on
university level notice ... you got a 20 year wait ... as they give the full
process of the movement to run its course ... if you mean on the public mass
appeal ... to your common layman exactly how many painters could they name?
I doubt if you could get ten names out of them ... but if you look around
their house you will find a number of pieces of boring art ... and time to
time something starkly good ... but you never know ... I don't think people
think about it too much ... but if you study them you will find small things
about them. And further more few artist truly make a living at it ... no
matter how famous they become. Sure you have media inspired art, but it
usually fades out after awhile ... to crop back up later. It comes and it
goes. The way some songs really suck the first time around ... but give it
10 years and all the hip places are playing the classics.
As for up front attention ... well ... maybe it isn't the time ... the
public in the 50's were all about folk writers and folk musicians ... and
even into the 60's ... but those ballads fell out of fashion. The way
Post-Modern is used as a cope out ... the fact that we are caught in cycles
and fads that come and go ... just seems to escape us ... and like I
mentioned earlier things ripple outward from the small circles toward the
outside rings. Look at advertising ... I see ads that look like zine ads a
decade ago ... that and for years we had this anti-corporate selling point
... now corporations use that to sell
us on their ideas ... look at Hollywood and all the anti-consumer movies it
releases cause it knows that is how we feel ... and supposely someone with
those feelings wrote the script.
As for Zine fame ... you ever check out the price tags attached to the old
1800's Penny Dreadfuls ... or early Pulp Magazines ... the number of authors
who slaved in those and then disappeared only to resurface in the sci-fi and
fanatasy gluts ... only to fade out again. Yet, people pay those prices ...
and for the most part the general public knows nothing of them. It is all
about focus ... I doubt if my father can name the best sellers he read 15
years ago ... but he remembers reading Watership Down ... from cover to
cover ... when he was stuck at work in a snowstorm and it was the only thing
to read. It was a funny story in our family ... but he remembers it very
well.
So the point is ... on its own little will happen on the surface ... unless
chance or public opinion swings ... or flukes go off (Maya having a best
selling collection of poetry) ... but, in truth you can foster public
interest. As you did yourself with the Banned Book item. The way music
scenes and art communities develop is because a few badger and work the
public until they notice. Of course you can turn off the public just as
easy. Here in Seattle there seems to be some pressure on Hip Hop organizers
to give up ... but they are simply organizing more and speaking out ... and
that attention will get more attention. Whether they will manage to
overcome the city or not ... is mote ... but at this time they are all
pulling together and turning into a community and in that some of them may
evolve beyond the local arena and go national or beyond -- just in the fact
they have a base -- even if it is a means to find other alternative to local
audiences. So I think it isn't just about doing and waiting ... but once
again comes back to the community and organization. There is so much going
on these days ... to pull an audience you have to do more than run a listing
or make some fliers ... you got to get word of mouth going and have
interest. You need to encourage new artists and highlight the better ones.
Only then can you have an audience. Waiting for others to do it ... will
amount to nothing. Also it is important to highlight the tradition ... to
give a relationship for the people to start from ... in the tradition being
exposed ... it becomes a lot more important because it has history and just
doesn't look random or floats with no connections to the surrounding
communities.
But fame is so fickle ... ask any washed up celebrity ... it comes and goes.
Or think of the work that becomes famous when the work is found hidden away
... such as The Diary of Anne Frank ... that's pretty damn close to folk
writing on a personal level ... and with no cause or effect expected. But,
as Philp Roth points out in Ghost Writer, it was important because it showed
the world that little jewish girls think just like any other little girl you
could find ... so when she is taken away ... you are not left with the
feeling -- There goes a jew ... but with the feeling of how can this happen
to her ... could it happen to me or my daughter.
Man, I'm being a babble machine this week ... get to get out more ... or
something.
Anyhow ... that's the spill this time around ... hope that makes a bit more
sense ...
"Jeff Potter" <j...@glpbooks.com> wrote in message
news:39E46AF5...@glpbooks.com...
Michael Crye
certain author
stinks even though you read only one book. Don't take evidence of my own
efforts as
a sign you may be wrong ... after there is a lot of dregs in the best pot of
coffee ... and I
might be drinking the wrong blend ... or just have a cup with fewer dregs
then the one you poured.
I might also be a kook who is making it all up like a theory of the Hollow
Earth and secret super-science. But, hopefully I pulled it off enough to
sound like I had a point worth considering.
"asha anderson" <red...@stones.com> wrote in message
news:8p39us02milg04g7b...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:38:21 -0700, "Michael Crye" <mc...@uswest.net>
> wrote:
>
> >My ex-wife's grandmother wrote a very long and involved story of her
father
> >and sisters.......
>
>
> Michael,
>
> Thanks for the interesting post. I'm too overworked be anything but
> tired and crabby these days. My saying most folk art is "shallow and
> self-indulgent" last night was bullshit. I appreciated your
> thoughtfulness.
>
> Asha
> Reddog etc.
The Blender Child
My saying most folk art is "shallow and
>self-indulgent" last night was bullshit. I appreciated your
>thoughtfulness.
Good Lord! Way to go Asha! No one ever comes back after rethinking a post
and call themselves on it! This is the coolest thing I have read in a LONG
time! I hate to sound like a teenybopper but... you ROCK!
Lea Ann
Blender Children Zine
wbassett
many of the comments here are extremely interesting. In particular, this:
Michael Crye <mc...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:e60F5.359$505.1...@news.uswest.net...
I agree with this entirely and would like to point out that this is a large
part of what the ULA is about. We value certain certain authors and certain
aesthetics, and one of the reasons we're getting together is to try to build
an audience for them. Interestingly, one of my own responsibilities is to
"highlight the tradition" in which these writers are working, to show the
context from which they come. We are more than a passing fad or a glitch in
the system. We are the future, the next logical step.
> But fame is so fickle ... ask any washed up celebrity ... it comes and
goes.
True, but fame is an aftershock effect, the recoil from the shot. I begrudge
nobody their shot at fame, but a more interesting question is in what
context does the fame occur? What is the framework being established? The
literary world is currently in the doldrums because of systemic problems. We
are offering a systemic solution.
doug
Michael Crye
evaporated from my blood
in this last year. First up you speak as if I should know who or what the
ULA is ... so I
did some research ... though a bit lite ... so hopefully I won't be too
vague in regards to
your organization. But you should only blame yourself for assuming I would
have any idea
what the ULA is or does.
You sell yourself in a confusing and jumpy way ... which makes me wonder
about the level
in which you will be pursuing these interests and mission goals. But, it
already sounds like
you are spending half your time selling me on the idea of the ULA. Sadly
enough I have yet
to find any references to particular successes or action on your part.
Declaring your group and writing
some mission statements are a long way from the battlefront ... personally I
wouldn't even have announced the organization until I had a working calendar
to line up with the announcement.
But, here I am speaking about building community and audience and you only
tell me "We value certain certain authors and certain aesthetics, and one of
the reasons we're getting together is to try to build an audience for them."
Okay that is narrow and elitist and smells of a few to benefit from the toil
of many on purpose -- instead of the cream of the crop rising up naturally.
One of the biggest problems I have with such planned assualts is the fact
they are always centered on a single group or artform ... alliances for
women writers, black dancers, jewish acrobats, bitter white men who draw
comics, german line dancers, zine editors with green eyes, etc. abound. And
there are plenty of writing, painting, salsa dancing clubs about ... but
only the successful movements incorporate a shared belief system and ideal
of quality across many artforms and showcases that build this continued
thought from a poetry reading to gallery to a music club to a DJ show at
some loft to lively chat at some shitty diner. In essence you have already
crippled and limited your view of the world and closed off the audience and
other artists that may feed your effort. I believe more in the art of
making people see connections ... you like this band's lyrics well the
vocalists is influenced by this book ... and there is a show of the cover
artist's art on such and such date ... its about getting people in the habit
of expecting things from you ... and the community you are building. Sure
by openning yourself too some bad artists ... but you should be good about
illustrating them what it looks like when someone good is on the stage ...
pull in some out of town or local artists that kick ass ... show them how it
works -- what they have to live up too -- that's good peer pressure ... you
have to work both sides of the coin. You sound more like a bunch of
conspirators rather then a group of peers. And it turns me off ...
I have seen both sides of the corporate/anti-corporate trip and both sides
lack some things that the other could really learn better. I think it would
be cool if marketing execs had to sell art for a year as part of their
training/degrees ... that would be cool ... you would see some well oiled
machines then. But, anyway ... a noisy coccoon is just as useless as a
quiet zinester in the corner by his/her self ... you are also creating a
structure that smacks of many of our state ran nonprofits arts committees
... and we know none of them work worth shit.
Community does not have structure it just has shepherds (sorry for the
biblical reference) ... you just sort of help it get to where its going.
You can't exactly turn lead to gold ... so the talent and will has to be
there in the key players ... and they have to be productive ... so they have
something to show. I support the full form attack vs a central art platform
in the way that you can cull audiences from many groups and mix and steal
parts of them creating bigger turn outs ... Of course its just not numbers
... you have to have an audience that makes you want to create for them ...
otherwise you repeat the mistakes of your establishments (Here you'll like
this or be square). When I used to write I never had problems publishing in
various publications and I never cut any corners ... and I've never had any
problems with cramming a couple hundred kids in some crappy place for a
night of music, readings, and performance art back when I organized. So I
don't get the issue at stake ... at times most complaints in this department
sound like ego instead of community concern.
Mike Watt once said, "Alternative music? What's the alternative to music...?
Silence?"
Perhaps you should think about what you want out this ULA ... and then
figure out how you can do it without becoming something that's a deadend or
just another thing for others to mock or resent. The only thing systemic
about art is the fact it unpredictable ... you could taylor build some
popstar like writer or band or painter ... but does it really benefit anyone
or the tradition to have something that burns out without a glimmer of
warmth for the community as a whole.
I should also qualify myself with the statement that I'm about stamping out
bad art ... but I don't think you should cut down the trees you don't like
until they provide themselves incapable of bearing fruit. There is a point
where you cut no talent loose ... but there is a point of being patient to
see if they will evolve ... which is the point of having a good supportive
community so those upstarts have a place to grow and learn.
As to fame ... it actually has no relation to this arguement. Fame is one
thing anyone can have .. but
I can't exactly say that is always what they want. You can be satisfied and
paid and not famous for your art ... or other combinations ... I think the
real nucleus we are trying to reach is how not to become famous but how to
be respected and heard ...
And you know for some a few cool letters or CD's to review is all they need
to make it worthwhile. Don't take yourself so serious ... and maybe
concentrate on building things that last.
"wbassett" <wbas...@key-net.net> wrote in message
news:p54F5.75265$Sr.7...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> I agree with this entirely and would like to point out that this is a
large
> part of what the ULA is about. We value certain certain authors and
certain
> aesthetics, and one of the reasons we're getting together is to try to
build
> an audience for them. Interestingly, one of my own responsibilities is to
> "highlight the tradition" in which these writers are working, to show the
> context from which they come. We are more than a passing fad or a glitch
in
> the system. We are the future, the next logical step.
>
The Blender Child
Michael what the HELL is the ULA anyway? I don't know either! So far I am
enjoying the HELL out of your posts. Mr bassett do not assume ANYONE knows
what the heck you are talking about!!!!
Jeff Potter
The Blender Child wrote:
> Michael what the HELL is the ULA anyway? I don't know either! So far I am
> enjoying the HELL out of your posts. Mr bassett do not assume ANYONE knows
> what the heck you are talking about!!!!
The ULA just had its first meeting. They'll come up with an explanation and
announce their calendar pretty soon, I bet. Hey, it's a national thing they're
trying to get under way.
I think they'll have an inclusive event go down where the goal is to provoke
trickledown effect, but they think they need to make some centralized noise to
do it. It's a focused attempt to get some attention from the NYC lit
establishment put on to zining. The diffuse approach of a bunch of zines
flying around, preaching to the converted, hasn't worked to this point. So
that underground writing is hurting (as ever) but also the NYC scene is
suffering greatly now as well. They're starved. But they don't know yet what
the medicine is, coz the medicine hasn't stood up and shouted the message
clearly enough yet. The goal of the ULA is to *effectively* get the two sides
hooked together. (At least a lot more than they are now.)
I think they'll have an event, start interacting with the public at various
'important' readings and arts events and start to take some heat for even
daring to say that there's great undiscovered writing out in the sticks. That
the writing programs don't know about. That are kickin out the jams better
than the writing programs are. Then the sticks can back em up by writing in
letters of defense and *sending in good zines* as proof to a few specific
addresses. Sounds like fun to me. Seems like it might even work.
wbassett
post about the meeting, happened to read some of this thread, go excited
about one thing you said, and posted my agreement to it. Turns out you and I
have very different notions of just about everything. Well, mea culpa. This
illustrates the dangers of banging into ongoing threads.
Before I get into the heart of this, a couple things. I have no interest in
"selling" you on the movement, for I have no idea who you are outside of
this thread. I merely chimed in -- wrongly, as I've already mentioned -- on
something you said. And as for me taking myself too "seriously" (as you
caution me against doing at the end of this), well, I think that criticism
could be applied equally on both sides. You take yourself awfully seriously
here.
Now to the meat of it:
Michael Crye <mc...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:HK5F5.881$505.2...@news.uswest.net...
> But, here I am speaking about building community and audience and you
only
> tell me "We value certain certain authors and certain aesthetics, and one
of
> the reasons we're getting together is to try to build an audience for
them."
> Okay that is narrow and elitist
You have a habit of slinging about loaded words. What do you mean by
"narrow" and "elitist" in this context? All artistic movements by definition
are "narrow" in the sense that they have a certain set of aesthetic
criteria which both include and exclude artists. We're no different. I don't
consider our criteria especially narrow -- alot of people would fit
comfortably here
-- but they're not infinitely elastic, certainly. As for "elitist", well, I
suspect this is simply shorthand for "I don't agree with your point of
view." I could just as easily call *your* vision of aesthetics and
aesthetic movements "elitist", in that it implies an authoritative structure
that I happen to disagree with. And I would be just as right -- and wrong.
and smells of a few to benefit from the toil
> of many on purpose -- instead of the cream of the crop rising up
naturally.
I'm not sure how you got that from "We value certain authors and certain
aesthetics, and one of the reasons we're getting together is to try to build
an audience for them." Unless you would care to elucidate further? With
examples?
but
> only the successful movements incorporate a shared belief system and ideal
> of quality across many artforms and showcases that build this continued
> thought from a poetry reading to gallery to a music club to a DJ show at
> some loft to lively chat at some shitty diner.
Certainly this is the case in fully-mature movements, but I don't think this
is how aesthetic movements begin. I think aesthetic movements begin when
small groups of likeminded writers, or likeminded painters, or likeminded
musicians, or likeminded whatevers get together and try to make a break from
the status quo paradigm in their artform. If their successful,
cross-pollinization can occur, and later historians can look back and see
the connections. But this is after-the-fact thinking, and in my opinion not
particularly useful when considering the problem of how to launch an
aesthetic movement. To put it in the most basic terms: disgruntled artists
who are looking to change things within their artform are most likely to
find comrades within the same artform . Aesthetic forms are different, after
all, and the problems that bedevil them are necessarily unique to each
discipline.
In essence you have already
> crippled and limited your view of the world and closed off the audience
and
> other artists that may feed your effort.
For pete's sake. Nobody's closing off anyone's heart or mind, or any other
artist or any segment of the audience. If at some point some painter, say,
wants to paint a picture based on something somebody in the ULA wrote,
that's fine. Indeed, that's how the innerconnections you care about so much
take place -- one artist at a time, doing the things that he or she cares
about. But ideas have to start somewhere, after all, and if I took your
ideas to their logical conclusion no aesthetic movement would ever get off
the ground. They'd be too busy trying to be sure that they'd made the
necessary amount of cross-disciplinary connections beforehand.
I believe more in the art of
> making people see connections ... you like this band's lyrics well the
> vocalists is influenced by this book ... and there is a show of the cover
> artist's art on such and such date ... its about getting people in the
habit
> of expecting things from you ... and the community you are building.
I don't think this makes much sense. I don't see how there is such a thing
as "the art of making people see connections". You can't make people see
connections -- they either do or they don't. (Of course, all art -- if it's
good -- makes people see connections, but I don't think this is what you
mean here.) It's certainly nothing you or I can control. And even if they
see connections, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll explore them. I
suppose someone could try to force the issue, like you describe in your
example, but this sounds unbearably heavyhanded and authoritarian to me: "Do
you like this band? Then read this book and look at this painting!" I would
much prefer to try to do my work in one small area -- an area I care
about -- and let the world make and take whatever innerconnections from it
it so wishes.
You sound more like a bunch of
> conspirators rather then a group of peers. And it turns me off ...
Well, you have a right to your opinion, certainly, but I don't understand
the "conspirators" reference, unless you have a much looser definition in
mind than I do.
But, anyway ... a noisy coccoon is just as useless as a
> quiet zinester in the corner by his/her self ... you are also creating a
> structure that smacks of many of our state ran nonprofits arts committees
> ... and we know none of them work worth shit.
Now this is actually a pretty interesting comment. If you feel like it, it
would be interesting to hear you expand on this further.
>
> Community does not have structure it just has shepherds (sorry for the
> biblical reference) ... you just sort of help it get to where its going.
Now, that's just silly. Romantic, but silly. A "community" is a group of
likeminded people who share the same interests, values, or beliefs. A
community is *defined* by a structure.
> Perhaps you should think about what you want out this ULA ... and then
> figure out how you can do it without becoming something that's a deadend
or
> just another thing for others to mock or resent.
Oh, we all have. Pretty deeply, actually. I think we all have some pretty
good ideas about how we can be effective and help the writers we care about.
We're not any deadend -- indeed, with any luck we'll work to make ourselves
obsolete. As for people "mocking" or "resenting" us, who cares, really?
There'll always be some people who'll do that. If I'd wanted to enter a
popularity contest I would never have gotten involved in this. I'm involved
because I think the literary world has entered a crisis point, and I think
we have the solution to some of its ills.
The only thing systemic
> about art is the fact it unpredictable
I believe I was speaking about systemic problems? I meant here "systemic" in
the sense of how writing enters the marketplace, how it's distributed, who
controls the distribution, who sets the tastes, etc. As such, I stand by my
statement.
... you could taylor build some
> popstar like writer or band or painter ... but does it really benefit
anyone
> or the tradition to have something that burns out without a glimmer of
> warmth for the community as a whole.
I know you intended this as merely a straw man you could knock down in your
argument, but actually there's some complex ideas hiding here: whether
anyone can really "tailor-build" a writer, whether a writer could ever be a
"popstar", whether it would necessarily be a bad thing to have a
writer/popstar, whether that could benefit anyone or any community, how it
might benefit it, etc. If you're serious about pursuing any of those ideas,
I'll be glad to get into it with you. If not that's okay, too.
>
> As to fame ... it actually has no relation to this arguement. Fame is one
> thing anyone can have .. but
> I can't exactly say that is always what they want. You can be satisfied
and
> paid and not famous for your art ... or other combinations ... I think the
> real nucleus we are trying to reach is how not to become famous but how to
> be respected and heard ...
Basically, you've just rephrased what I said -- except that I also said that
the interesting question about fame is the context in which it's
established. Put another way, why are certain people famous? Why are certain
people not famous? What does that say about the current culture? Why do we
no longer have writers as famous as Hemingway and Mailer? etc. I think those
are interesting questions to pursue.
Well, like I said, my apologies for reading a post hastily and thinking that
it applied to me more than it did. My fault. That said, I rather enjoyed
this interchange -- it sharpened some of my own ideas a bit, and that's
always a good thing.
You know, taken by themselves your words still sound pretty good to me:
but, in truth you can foster public
interest. As you did yourself with the Banned Book item. The way music
scenes and art communities develop is because a few badger and work the
public until they notice.
Certainly that's one of the things we're trying to do.
There is so much going
on these days ... to pull an audience you have to do more than run a listing
or make some fliers ... you got to get word of mouth going and have
interest. You need to encourage new artists and highlight the better ones.
Only then can you have an audience. Waiting for others to do it ... will
amount to nothing.
This is another thing we're trying to do.
Also it is important to highlight the tradition ... to
give a relationship for the people to start from ... in the tradition being
exposed ... it becomes a lot more important because it has history and just
doesn't look random or floats with no connections to the surrounding
communities.
And this is a third thing we're trying to do.
Just because your own notion of "community" is, in my opinion, a gauzy
romantic dream that has no relationship to the realities of trying to
accomplish something in the world, that doesn't mean that the above words
were wrong. I stand by my agreement on those above statements.
doug
Jeff Potter
The Blender Child wrote:
> Michael what the HELL is the ULA anyway? I don't know either! So far I am
> enjoying the HELL out of your posts. Mr bassett do not assume ANYONE knows
> what the heck you are talking about!!!!
>
> Lea Ann
> Blender Children Zine
That Michael, he's a chick magnet! And Asha, too. Man, I gotta start rambling
LONGER and apologizing MORE. : )
Michael Crye
> That Michael, he's a chick magnet! And Asha, too. Man, I gotta start
rambling
> LONGER and apologizing MORE. : )
"The internet no one knows you are a dog ... "
Michael Crye
In honor of all the lesbians who happen to be 30 year old married men who
stalk
chat rooms ... on the internet you may be a cat pretending to be dog
pretending
to be a human ...
"asha anderson" <red...@stones.com> wrote in message
news:hbpaus03fmjrd24k7...@4ax.com...
>
> >"On the internet no one knows you are a dog ... "
> >
> >
>
>
> sniff...sniffsniff...woof
>
>
> Asha
> Reddog etc.
The Blender Child
calling certain people "one of the thousand points of light" you silver
tongued devil you!
Lea Ann
Seth Ruff Dawg
Get an M-60.
--Seth
Wet Devoh: A Zine
"Thinking Because You Never Do Since 1999"
wetdevoh.findhere.com
Funbags: What the FFFFF...!