Alex Gong, Kickboxing Champ: Physical Zen --
Disbanking Zen Stories
Toxic Zen Story #7B: Physical Zen: Alex Gong, Kickboxing Champ with
everything to live for.
. 'As Gong's body lay in the middle of Fifth
. Street, wrapped in a yellow tarp, and police
. interviewed witnesses, [his] students gathered at
. Fairtex. They were stunned and spoke with
. admiration for Gong. '
.
. 'Lam said Gong was a mentor and a leader. '
.
. ' "Alex was an amazing guy," Lam said. "He was
. the owner, but he was kind of like a big brother.
. It was a family environment. '
.
. ' "He was a fighter to the end. He was arguing
. with this guy to get him to pull over -- all he
. had to do was get his [license] plate, but he had
. to get into it with him," Lam said. '
____ Preface: Zen Founder _________________________________
Zen is the snake that bites its own tail. If you embrace the void and
acausality, you will find yourself later in the midst of catastrophic
emptiness saying "how'd that happen?".
Under Prajnatara (Perfect Wisdom Shining Star) of India, there was a
disciple named Bodhidharma (Buddha Law). Under these grandiose names,
they studied the Buddha's teachings, after Buddhism had traveled East
to China. The Buddha foretold that Buddhism would fall into a Hellish
path in India, after the Buddha's highest teachings had moved on.
Bodhidharma was a native of Conjeeveram, near Madras in India. He
traveled from India and arrived at Ching-Ling (now Nanking), or
perhaps at Guangzhou (Canton), perhaps both. There, Bodhidharma met
with the Emperor's emissary (some say Emperor Wu of the Liang Dynasty,
see footnote), where they discussed the Sutras.
As Bodhidharma (also called Da Mo, or Ta Mo in China, and Daruma in
Japan) believed in dhyana or meditation upon the nothingness at the
heart of life, and as the Lotus Sutra had been translated into
Chinese by Kumarajiva who traveled from India a century earlier and
had served the Liang Dynasty well, the lesser and distorted teaching
of dhyana/ch'an/zen was rejected by practitioners of the highest
teaching, and Bodhidharma was banished from Imperial territory.
As an icchantika, or incorrigible disbeliever in the Lotus Sutra, he
could not be allowed to spread his teachings in the Emperor's domain
(they wished to live happily, you see). But by banishing him, they
did not act as bodhisattvas, to thoroughly correct his errors and not
let him slip away to corrupt others, and thusly fall into the hell of
incessant sufferings (Aviichi Hell) for countless lifetimes. Out of
this single uncompassionate act, much of the suffering of the world
has come.
After he was banished, Bodhidharma went to the Shaolin Monastery at
Loyang, West of Kaifeng in the Henan (Honan) Province of Western
China, where the Huang He (Yangtze or Yellow River) tumbles out of the
break between Zhongtiao Shan (2367m) on the North and Quanbao Shan
(2094m) on the South, to flood the rest of China. At the Shaolin
Monastery, he widely disseminated his distorted views of Buddhism,
corrupting first the Shaolin Monks and ultimately the rest of the
world.
Bodhidharma's school was known as Dhyana (from the Mahayana source),
or as Ch'an in China, and eventually as Zen in Japan. It comes to
flower in many different forms, in many different places down through
the ages.
Bodhidharma's very existence is denied by the Zen community,
rendering the life of their founder as itself a void. This allows no
one to be responsible, and the Zen community to walk away from the
train wreck. So let's assume that the history is true, and hold
Bodhidharma and Zen accountable, just this once. There was surely a
founder who brought Dhyana from India, however many names he is
called.
Footnotes on Wu-Ti:
Concerning Emperor Wu: from "The Selection of the Time - Nichiren,
disciple of Shakyamuni Buddha", Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, p.
544:
. 'Those concerned about their next life would
. do better to be common people in this, the Latter
. Day of the Law, than be mighty rulers during the
. two thousand years of the Former and Middle Days
. of the Law. Why won't people believe this? Rather
. than be the chief priest of the Tendai school, it
. is better to be a leper who chants Nam-myoho-
. renge-kyo! As Emperor Wu of the Liang dynasty said
. in his vow, "I would rather be Devadatta and sink
. into the hell of incessant suffering than be the
. non-Buddhist sage Udraka Ramaputra."'
This reference is to a document in which Emperor Wu (464--549), the
first ruler of the Liang dynasty, pledged not to follow the way of
Taoism. It actually says that he would rather sink into the evil paths
for a long period of time for going against Buddhism (yet nevertheless
forming a bond with it) than be reborn in heaven by embracing the non-
Buddhist teachings. This story appears in The Annotations on "Great
Concentration and Insight." Udraka Ramaputra was a hermit and master
of yogic meditation, the second teacher under whom Shakyamuni
practiced. He is said to have been reborn in the highest of the four
realms in the world of formlessness.
From the Encyclopedia Britannica:
. Wu-Ti: Born 464 , China. Died 549 , China
.
. Pinyin Wudi (posthumous name, or shih), personal
. name (hsing-ming) Hsiao Yen , temple name (miao-
. hao) (nan-liang) Kao-tsu founder and first emperor
. of the Southern Liang dynasty (502–557), which
. briefly held sway over South China. A great patron
. of Buddhism , he helped establish that religion in
. the south of China.
.
. Wu-ti was a relative of the emperor of the
. Southern Ch'i dynasty (479–502), one of the
. numerous dynasties that existed in South China in
. the turbulent period between the Han (206 BC–AD
. 220) and T'ang (618–907) dynasties. He led a
. successful revolt against the Southern Ch'i after
. his elder brother was put to death by the emperor.
. He proclaimed himself first emperor of the Liang
. dynasty in 502, and his reign proved to be longer
. and more stable than that of any other southern
. emperor in this period.
.
. A devout believer, Wu-ti diligently promoted
. Buddhism, preparing the first Chinese Tripitaka,
. or collection of all Buddhist scripts. In 527 and
. again in 529 he renounced the world and entered a
. monastery. He was persuaded to reassume office
. only with great difficulty. In 549 the capital was
. captured by a “barbarian” general, and Wu-ti died
. of starvation in a monastery.
____ Preface: Types of Zen _______________________________
There is a hierarchy of Zen, in power and toxicity. The lesser forms
of Zen pave the way in societies and cultures for the more powerful
forms. Once a society or culture is corrupted, in even the tiniest
way, by any form of Zen, the tendency will be to move inevitably
towards greater corruption by the more powerful and toxic variants. In
this way, Zen undermines everything that can be undermined in the
world, leaving only that which is incorruptible (the correct practice
of the Lotus Sutra). The hierarchy of Zen is as follows, in general
terms:
Physical Zen: All of the martial arts are based on Zen, starting
. with Shaolin Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Karate, Aikido, JiuJitsu,
. Judo, Kendo, Bushido, Ninjitsu, etc. Tai Chi came from
. Shaolin Qigong, which also led to Acupuncture,
. Acupressure and Falun Gong. As the chaos in society
. grows, people need to feel they can protect themselves and
. their loved ones, and in this way they are corrupted further.
Christian Zen, Jewish Zen, Hindu Zen, Islamic Zen: These are
. basically mixtures, wherein the monotheist believer in a
. deity, feels they can practice Zen meditation without a
. problem, since it is not theistic. While this reasoning is true,
. it ignores the absolutely overwhelming corruption produced
. by Zen, which will ultimately undermine their belief system
. and every facet of their life, by bringing all of the negatives
. in the Zen adherent's's daily life and environment to the
. forefront, with increasing amplification and psychotic
. effect.
Nuremberg Zen: The widespread belief by a population, that
. the purpose of the Buddha's advent in the world was to
. teach Zen: that Zen is Buddhism. This is, of course, an
. absolutely distorted view of the Buddha's life and teachings.
. Shakyamuni made it transparently clear, at the very end of
. his life in the Nirvana Sutra, wherein he states that the Lotus
. Sutra is his highest teaching in the past, present and future,
. and is the purpose of his advent on this Earth, and that his
. followers should honestly discard provisional teachings
. (teachings other than the Lotus Sutra).
.
. Nuremberg Zen was promulgated first by D.T. Suzuki's
. work with Paul Carus, then by Eugen Herrigel's Zen in the
. Art of Archery (and the many who copies: Zen in the Art
. of Marketing, Sales, Bakery, etc.) and finally by Alan Watts,
. the Norman Vincent Peale of Zen. Nuremberg Zen creates
. the environment of chaos and widespread misery that are
. the preconditions for the spread of more toxic forms of
. Zen.
Stanford Zen: This is the Lay organization of Zen. It was
. developed in conjunction with the activities of Frederic
. Spiegelberg, a Lutheran who taught theology at the
. University of Dresden, and fleeing the effects of Nuremberg
. Zen in Germany, came to teach at Stanford, and founded
. the American Academy of Asian Studies with Alan Watts
. and others, which became the California Institute of Integral
. Studies, after it spawned Esalen with Richard Price and
. Michael Murphy. Esalen was the proving ground for the
. Large Group Awareness Therapy organizations, of which
. Werner Erhard's EST was most prominent. EST morphed
. into a business school executive training seminar
. organization called the Landmark Forum, or Landmark
. Education, which has now become the de facto Lay
. organization for Zen, projecting itself onto Wall Street and
. the Fortune 500.
Green Dragon Zen: In this category I place Soto, which is the
. parent of the Green Dragon Society, Rinzai, Fuke, Northern
. and Southern Chinese Ch'an sects, Vietnamese and Korean
. sects, and all the variant sects which practice the most toxic
. forms of Zen: those which actually use the Lotus Sutra as a
. means to promulgate their distorted views of Buddhism.
. This is the greatest slander of the Lotus Sutra which is
. possible. I lump them all under the Green Dragon banner
. (I'm sure they do not appreciate this, but that is not a
. concern), because Green Dragon has had a tradition of
. secret propagation, and penetration of new areas with the
. most aggressive intent to build a lasting foothold in every
. society it touches. All of the other sects in any locale, will
. orient themselves to the Green Dragon.
Nuremberg Zen, Physical Zen and the monotheist Zen mixtures will all
eventually pave the way for Stanford Zen and the Green Dragon, if they
are not themselves undercut by the king of sutras, the Lotus Sutra.
(Zen believers cannot resist the allure of greater power. When they
try the Lotus Sutra and find that it fills the void inside, they will
find they like it.)
Finally, there is the enabling group for all of the worst religious
and social movements in history:
Fellowship of Evil Friends: This loosely collected group of
. Occultists,Theology professors and educators, is at the
. branching point for most of corrupt religious movements
. of the world. This grandfather of this group is the occultist
. Meister Eckart, and it includes: Dietrich Eckart (Thule
. Society), Paul Carus (Open Court Publishing), Frederic
. Spiegelberg (Stanford, AAAS), Michael Murphy (Esalen),
. and a host of powerful media people, pundits, gurus and
. self-help authors. They are all quite happy to connect you
. up with some form of evil, but step back from
. commitment themselves, always stopping at the door, as
. you foolishly, trustingly pass through. In this way they
. catalyze the evil transformation, but survive its effects to
. spread further evil, later on.
____ Preface: Powers of Zen ______________________________
Variations upon Zen which have evolved into new strains and then major
branches of Zen, have increased their toxic power by piling slander
upon slander over hundreds of years. The greatest slanders are
attached to the most powerfully evil forms of Zen, which are those
that have attacked the Lotus Sutra directly or the votaries (devotees)
of the Lotus Sutra, the Sangha, directly. One can think of this with
the mathematical analogy of a powers of a variable, that Zen becomes
exponentially more powerful and evil as slanders are piled upon
slanders ...
[Zen] Bodhidharma discards the Lotus Sutra, seeking wisdom that is
from transmissions outside the sutras, transmitted from person to
person (ishin denshin). The families of Chinese Zen under
Bodhidharma's influence include: Dhyana, Ch'an, Western Ch'an, Qigong,
Tai-Chi, Acupuncture, and the Chinese and Korean Martial Arts up to
1200 CE.
[Zen Squared] Dogen uses the Lotus Sutra as a means to teach and
propagate Zen. The families of Japanese Zen under Dogen's influence
are: Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Green Dragon Zen, Bushido and the Japanese
Martial Arts up to 1500 CE.
[Zen Cubed] Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and the Tokugawa Shogunate use various
Samurai and Daimyo tactics, which are based on Zen, to subjugate and
crush Nichiren Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra in the 1500s and 1600s. The
families of Japanese Zen under the Tokugawa influence are: Soto Zen,
Rinzai Zen, Green Dragon Zen, Bushido and the Japanese Martial Arts up
to 1867 CE.
[Zen Squared Squared] After the Meiji regime's overthrow of the
Tokugawa Shogunate, the militarization and buildup of Japanese society
into an armed camp, forces all of Buddhism under Shinto, and Zen
becomes Imperial Way Zen. This ultimately leads to the crushing of the
Lay organization of Nikko's School of Nichiren Buddhism, the Soka
Kyoiku Gakkai and the imprisonment of their leaders during the war,
and the death of their President Tsunesaburo Makiguchi. The families
of Imperial Way Zen are: Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Green Dragon Zen,
Bushido and the Japanese Martial Arts up to 1945 CE.
[Zen to the 5th] American Lay Zen from George Leonard's [Esalen]
influence: the Large Group Awareness Therapy or Training sessions,
Werner Erhard's EST, Landmark Forum, Landmark Education Seminars.
____ Preface: Zen Offends the Law ________________________
There is a principle which is central to the Buddhism of the Lotus
Sutra: Oneness of Person and Law, known as Nimpo-ikka in Japanese.
It is eternally true that the Law and the Buddha are fused, to make
life as we know it.
Since, according to Nichiren in the Ongi Kuden (The Oral Teachings, or
class notes from his lectures on the Lotus Sutra, taken by Nikko), one
meaning of "Myoho" is that delusion and enlightenment are fused (this
is also explained in the essential teachings of the Lotus Sutra, in
the Juryo or Life Span chapter) ...
This means that even for deluded mortals, there is always a condition
of oneness of person and Law.
The implication of this, is that wherever there is a slander of the
Law, then nearby and coincident with it, there is a slander of
humanity, by the principle of the simultaneity of cause and effect.
Hence, wherever Zen is propagated widely, there will be in each and
every instance, Toxic Zen Stories to tell.
What follows is one of these ...
____ Introduction ________________________________________
It is by chain of Master-Disciple, that the Zen Mind is transmitted in
its most potently toxic form.
In the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra, you make your mentor the Buddha's
highest teachings, but you learn sincere faith from a person. Mind of
the Buddha's highest teachings, heart of Sensei, but dedicated only to
the wonderful Law.
In Zen, you cast aside the Buddha's highest teachings, and lose your
faith in life and humanity , by subjugation to the mind of a master.
Mind of the master, heartless, and dedicated to the emptiness inherent
in life.
No other two ways of belief can possibly be more different than these.
Zen is most definitely NOT Buddhism, no matter how often Zen believers
quote the Lotus Sutra, like Dogen does to deceive the foolish.
_______________________________________________
All forms of the Martial Arts either derive directly from Shaolin Kung
Fu (by remote source or defilement), or were heavily changed by
contact with it (by mixing).
As Chuck Norris, the former kickboxing champion and television star
puts it, "All of the Martial Arts are based on Zen." To be specific:
Physical Zen.
When a karate blow is aimed at the head or body, the strongest force
is applied by imagining the target of the blow to be on the other side
of the strike zone: punching through the head or body. This means to
imagine that person as a void.
The greatest martial artist in history is thought by many to be the
swordsman Miyamoto Musashi. He won 60 bouts in his life, losing none.
At the end of his life he holed up (in a cave, some say) and wrote his
"A Book of Five Rings" (Go Rin No Sho). Many martial artists seek out
this book, to find the great slashing moves, like the shoulder to hip
cut with the katana.
Each seeker in turn is surprised to find nothing of the sort in
Musashi's book, it is merely a depiction of the four elements, air,
earth, fire, and water. And the fifth element, the void of the Zen
mind, which Zen believers use to replace the True Entity of All
Phenomena as the core reality of life. This slander of the Buddha's
teachings, by those identified as Buddhists, is the source of Zen
evil. It is possessed by every martial artist, such as the instructor
and 3 students who blew up the London Underground. "Zen is the
invention of the heavenly devil" - Nichiren Daishonin.
____ Toxic Zen Story ______________________________
From the San Francisco Chronicle: "Fender-bender hit-run turns fatal
in S.F. - Kickbox champ chases down driver, winds up shot to death",
by Jaxon Van Derbeken, Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writers,
Saturday, August 2, 2003
(http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/
2003/08/02/MN283785.DTL )
. 'A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was
. shot to death in the middle of a busy San
. Francisco street Friday after he chased down a
. hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his
. parked car minutes earlier. '
.
. 'Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the
. scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street.
. Witnesses said he was shot at point-blank range
. when he confronted the driver, who apparently
. waited for a traffic signal to turn green before
. opening fire and speeding away. '
.
. 'Gong, who had been working out at the South
. of Market training gym he runs at 444 Clementina
. St., was wearing yellow boxing gloves and boxing
. trunks when he was killed. '
So, Alex was right in the middle of Zendo activities. Dressed in his
Zendo outfit. Right in the middle of attacking the Law...
. 'The slaying came one day after San Francisco
. Mayor Willie Brown and other officials announced
. the start of a campaign to crack down on hit-and-
. run driving. '
.
. 'The 4:30 p.m. incident began outside Gong's
. Fairtex gym when his car, also a Jeep Cherokee,
. was hit by a passing car. Enraged, Gong gave
. chase on foot, going a block east on Clementina,
. then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At
. that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had
. been forced to stop as traffic backed up near the
. Bay Bridge on-ramp. '
Alex was acting as a good citizen. Everything should be all right
then, yes? No. Because a small secular good deed is not comparable to
a great evil, of slandering the Law, the Buddha's highest teaching of
the Lotus Sutra. That is what Zen is, and everything that derives from
Zen...
. ' ''The victim put his arm out to stop the
. driver, the driver pushed him back and then shot
. him -- point blank," said Marilyn Moore, a
. witness who was riding in a car on Fifth Street.
. '
.
. 'I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT'
.
. ' "The victim grabbed himself and fell
. backward," she said. "The driver backed up, put
. the car in drive and drove off. He turned right
. on Harrison. '
.
. ' "I just couldn't believe it, I've never seen
. nothing like that in my life," Moore said. '
.
. ' Brian Lam, 26, an instructor at Fairtex,
. said members of the gym saw the initial fender-
. bender through an open garage door. Gong, who was
. inside training, took off barefoot after the man,
. said Lam, who grabbed a camera and followed. '
.
. ' "As I was running up, I see Alex arguing
. with the guy," Lam said. "The light turned green,
. the guy popped him. He definitely waited for the
. light to turn green." '
That red light was for Alex. To allow him to catch up with his moment
of death, the moment he trained all his life for, and worked for
assiduously. That emptiness, that void which his physical practice is
centered on. It manifests in a single moment of Zen-consciousness...
. 'Lam said he tried to take a picture of the
. fleeing Cherokee, but was in a rush to help his
. mortally wounded friend. "I just yelled for
. people to help," he said. '
.
. 'A motorcycle officer on the way to the Hall
. of Justice nearby stopped, and he and Lam both
. attempted to resuscitate Gong. '
.
. ' "Last year, Alex paid for my CPR
. certification," Lam said. "I was giving him
. mouth-to-mouth, the officer was giving him chest
. compressions." '
.
. 'Lam said a single bullet struck Gong just
. above the heart. '
.
. ' "I thought he was dead maybe 10 seconds
. after he was shot," Lam said. '
Now we know the end of Alex's story, let's see how carefully he builds
it. This may seem cruel, but people live out their lives for a reason,
and you only take that reason away by ignoring, or walking away from
the scene that was not an accident. Walking away and on to new
exploits is the very heart of Zen. Before you move on, pause to look
at how Alex built a tragic void for himself, his girl and her son, and
a budding empire of Muay Thai gyms, based on the distorted view of
Zen, and protecting the self against others ...
. 'S.F. RESIDENT'
.
. 'Gong, a resident of San Francisco, was born
. and raised in New England, and lived for a time
. in Central Asia before returning to the East
. Coast. He later moved to California and graduated
. from San Francisco State University with a degree
. in business. '
.
. 'Long interested in judo and tae kwon do, Gong
. discovered Muay Thai, a form of kickboxing and
. the national sport of Thailand, in 1994. He once
. said in an interview that he was drawn to the
. sport by the fluid movement and careful balance
. it requires. '
The Taoist roots of Zen are its most seductive feature... like a
swaying and hypnotic cobra preparing to strike...
. 'He had a natural affinity for the sport and
. racked up an impressive array of championships in
. the middleweight and welterweight classes. He
. appeared regularly on HBO and ESPN and headlined
. fights at the MGM Grand and the Mirage in Las
. Vegas. He was a dedicated competitor who trained
. tirelessly, often waking at dawn to run five
. miles and perform scores of sit-ups, push-ups and
. other exercises before going to work. '
Practicing all the paramitas, like a good bodhisattva following the
Precepts. Devadatta, the champion of Precepts who betrayed and
attempted to murder the Buddha and replace him, would be so proud ...
. 'Gong worked equally hard as a businessman who
. introduced Muay Thai to California when in 1996
. he opened a San Francisco branch of Fairtex
. Combat Sports Camp -- founded in Bangkok in 1976.
. It wasn't long before the firm employed 20
. instructors and included more than 600 students.
. It is, according to the company's Web site, the
. nation's top Muay Thai training facility and the
. only one recognized by the World Muay Thai
. Council, which is under the authority of the Thai
. government. '
Right in there with the secular authority. Everything should have been
prepared for an auspicious result...
. 'AN AMAZING GUY'
.
. 'Under Gong's leadership, Fairtex opened
. another facility in Daly City in 2000. '
.
. 'As Gong's body lay in the middle of Fifth
. Street, wrapped in a yellow tarp, and police
. interviewed witnesses, [his] students gathered at
. Fairtex. They were stunned and spoke with
. admiration for Gong. '
.
. 'Lam said Gong was a mentor and a leader. '
.
. ' "Alex was an amazing guy," Lam said. "He was
. the owner, but he was kind of like a big brother.
. It was a family environment. '
.
. ' "He was a fighter to the end. He was arguing
. with this guy to get him to pull over -- all he
. had to do was get his [license] plate, but he had
. to get into it with him," Lam said. '
In the end, he couldn't just be a citizen, an average guy and just
take the numbers down and let the situation defuse itself. HE HAD TO
BE THE STAR OF HIS OWN MOVIE, LIKE JACKIE CHAN.
He saw dollar signs in busting this perp. It would be on all the
magazine covers. He could use it in his ads. He didn't realize until
he saw his precious life passing away from him, that his movie was a
tragedy.
. 'Gong's girlfriend of five years, Mai Tran,
. 26, of Millbrae, said Saturday that Gong regarded
. her son as his own and was "the most driven, the
. most passionate person I know." '
What a wretched outcome for her and her son, who idolized Alex...
. 'Philip Tong, 43, a San Francisco cleaning
. contractor and former student at the gym, said he
. happened to be driving by the intersection Friday
. night and saw a Jeep driving erratically,
. followed soon afterward by "someone running down
. the street, no shirt, no pants. I thought it was
. a street person." '
.
. This was the final view of Gong's life-movie ...
. no recognition of him as an individual, confusion
. of who or what purpose was being pursued ...
. emptiness
.
. 'Only later, when he read about the shooting
. on the Internet, did he learn it was Gong chasing
. the driver. Tong said he's talked to police but
. didn't see the driver or the shooting. '
____ Epilog _______________________________________
The Buddha's highest teachings were the purpose of the Buddha's advent
on this earth.
The Buddha did not appear on this earth to drain people's compassion
with discussions of the emptiness and meaninglessness of life which is
just a void.
The Buddha did not appear on this earth to teach people to live in
such a narrow and momentary way, that there would be no context for
self-examination and conscience.
The Buddha did not appear on this earth to possess people's minds with
such illogic as to befuddle their ability to choose correctly between
what is good and what is evil.
The Buddha did not appear on this earth to teach people how to commit
atrocities and genocide, in the exploration of their "infinite
possibilities", or "new states of being".
The Buddha did not appear on this earth to teach people how to maim
and kill with their hands efficiently, quietly, loudly, with increased
terror inflicted, or to maximize their subjugation to control the
public sentiments for political ends.
These are all profoundly evil distortions of the Buddha's true
teachings, which introduce infinities in the variables holding good
and evil, removing all shades of gray in the propositional calculus of
value.
Simply stated, the Buddha made his advent on this earth with the
purpose of teaching the compassionate way of the bodhisattva, which is
at the heart of the true entity of all phenomena, which is the eternal
Buddha at one with the eternal Law. Which is how to navigate the sea
of sufferings of birth, aging, sickness and death. He originally set
out on his path, because of his observation of the sufferings of
common people and wanting to understand the source of those sufferings
(enlightened wisdom) and how to transform those sufferings into
unshakable happiness (enlightened action).
When you embrace the void and even become its champion, in that moment
you create an emptiness in your future. Each time you embrace the void
again, that emptiness grows.
But it doesn't have to be ...
__________________________________________________________
Nichiren Daishonin writes (Encouragement to a Sick Person, WND p. 78):
. "During the Former and Middle Days of the Law, the
. five impurities began to appear, and in the Latter
. Day, they are rampant. They give rise to the great
. waves of a gale, which not only beat against the
. shore, but strike each other. The impurity of
. thought has been such that, as the Former and
. Middle Days of the Law gradually passed, people
. transmitted insignificant erroneous teachings
. while destroying the unfathomable correct
. teaching. It therefore appears that more people
. have fallen into the evil paths because of errors
. with respect to Buddhism than because of secular
. misdeeds."
Because Bodhidharma discarded the Buddha's highest teaching (the Lotus
Sutra), and due to his lazy nature turned to shortcuts to
enlightenment, he came to the distorted view that life is acausal and
empty, that the true entity is the void.
This erroneous view really comes from a misunderstanding of the Sutra
of Immeasurable Meanings, where the True Entity is described by
negation (the only way it can be): "... neither square, nor round,
neither short, nor long, ..."
The description of the True Entity is logically voidal, but the True
Entity itself is not. Bodhidharma was simply confused, due to the
slander of negligence (laziness), and false confidence. The truth of
life is that at the heart of the True Entity is the compassion of a
bodhisattva for others.
Non-substantiality does not mean empty. Life has value. Humans are
respectworthy. There is a purpose to everything. And every cause has
an effect, so we are responsible for our thoughts, words and deeds.
Zen is acausal. Zen is the greatest poison, which compares to the even
greater medicine of the Lotus Sutra.
Suffice it to say: the purpose of Zen in the world is to corrupt and
undermine everything that is not based upon the truth and the true
teaching. All religions, disciplines, institutions and organizations
which are undermined by Zen will eventually fall after glaring
revelation of their worst defects, sooner rather than later.
If there is some good in your family, locality, society and culture,
or country that you would like to retain, then cease the Zen, and
begin to apply the medicine of the Lotus Sutra to heal the Zen wound
in your life.
"Zen is the work of devilish minds." - Nichiren
-Chas.
. a prescription for the poisoned ones:
.
. The only antidote for the toxic effects of Zen in your life ...
.
. be that from Zen meditation, or the variant forms: physical
. Zen in the martial arts, Qigong, Acupuncture, Falun Gong,
. Copenhagen Convention of Quantum Mechanics, EST,
. Landmark Education, Nazism, Bushido, the Jesuits,
. Al Qaeda, or merely from having the distorted view that life
. is acausal, and that the true entity of all phenomena
. is the void ...
.
. with the effects of the loss of loved ones, detachment,
. isolation or various forms of emptiness in your life ...
.
. is the Lotus Sutra: chant Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo
. at least 3 times, twice a day, for the rest of your life,
. in at least a whisper ...
.
. and if you can, chant abundantly in a resonant voice !!!
.
. Nichiren Daishonin's Gosho and the
. SGI Dictionary of Buddhism are located at:
.
http://www.sgilibrary.org/writings.php
http://www.sgilibrary.org/dict.html
.
. The full 28 Chapters of the Lotus Sutra (and many other
. wonderful things) are online at the SGI website:
.
http://sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/
.
. To find an SGI Community Center:
.
http://www.sgi-usa.org/sgilocations/
__________________________________
[Keep in mind when reading chapter two of the Lotus Sutra, that it is
the core of the "theoretical" first half of the Lotus Sutra. As such,
it expresses theoretical ichinen sanzen, the theoretical wisdom of the
Lotus Sutra.
When you read this section it can raise in your mind the provisional
view of Buddhism, that enlightenment is attained through worshipping
statues or various practices over many lifetimes, which is incorrect.
In fact, the one and only way to attain the enlightenment related to
the Lotus, is the practice of the Lotus Sutra, which in this time is
chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.]
LS Chap. 2
If there are living beings
who have encountered these past Buddhas,
and if they have listened to their Law, presented alms,
or kept the precepts, shown forbearance,
been assiduous, practiced meditation and wisdom, and so forth,
cultivating various kinds of merit and virtue,
then persons such as these
all have attained the Buddha way.
After the Buddhas have passed into extinction,
if persons are of good and gentle mind,
then living beings such as these
have all attained the Buddha way.
After the Buddhas have passed into extinction,
if persons make offerings to the relics,
raising ten thousand or a million kinds of towers,
using gold, silver and crystal,
seashell and agate,
carnelian, lapis lazuli, pearls
to purify and adorn them extensively,
in this way erecting towers;
or if they raise up stone mortuary temples
or those of sandalwood or aloes,
hovenia or other kinds of timber,
or of brick, tile clay or earth;
if in the midst of the broad fields
they pile up earth to make a mortuary temple for the Buddhas,
or even if little boys at play
should collect sand to make a Buddha tower,
then persons such as these
have all attained the Buddha way.
This anthology:
Buku
the perspective of a common mortal rather from the perspective of the
Buddha.
The members are taught by their leaders that any desire or goal the
member has, as long as they chant Namu Myoho renge kyo, is equal to
Enlightenment. They are encouraged to chant for cars, boyfriends,
houses, fame, even drugs and sex and that is equal to Enlightenment at
the moment the desire is fulfilled.
The Wish Granting Jewel to these base depraved men and women of the
Soka Gakkai is not the Great Wish for attaining Buddhahood that is
bound to the Pure and Perfect Consciousness hidden in the core of
being [Amala] but rather those common shallow wishes bound to the Five
[Sense] Desires [Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing and Vision]
Since this matter is of utmost importance, I will give an example of a
Soka Gakkai leader who believed faithfully in this perverted doctrine
of the Soka Gakkai. She was the top senior leader of a country who
lived and breathed the Soka Gakkai and every doctrine and principle
taught therein. She was a physically beautiful women of forty five
years old with golden blond hair, bright green eyes and a near
boundless determination to spread the twisted teachings of the Soka
Gakkai, such as the primacy of the Oneness of Mentor and Disciple and
Enlightenment Equals Earthly Desires. Married for fifteen years, she
had three beautiful children, five, seven and eight years old, and a
husband who worshipped the ground she walked on. He was absolutely
supportive of her practice which kept her away from home for long
periods, doing those insipid slanderous Gakkai activities. The
husband, though having a business of his own, split the duties of
taking care of the children with a nanny and he was content because he
loved his wife and children and was willing to sacrifice whatever it
took to make his wife and children happy and to promote the Gakkai's
vision of "Spreading the True Teachings" [Kosen Rufu].
During one of these activities, ten years earlier, she met another top
senior leader in the Men's Division and they immediately hit it off
having so many things in common, their love and admiration for Sensei,
endless activities for "Kosen Rufu", and spouses and families who
chant and support them. Her feelings for this man however, far
surpassed those of a mere comrade in faith. Every day for ten years,
morning and evening, when she did Gongyo and Daimoku, she always
included in her prayers the wish to be with this man. Out of the blue
he contacted her revealing his very same desire to be with her. They
began an affair and then they both determined in front of the Soka
Gakkai no-honzon that they would leave their spouses and be together
thus realizing in their very bodies the Gakkai teaching of Earthly
Desires are Equal to Enlightenment. They chanted and planned, planned
and chanted for everything to go the way that it "must' since their
desires are equal to Enlightenment.
This was the day. This was the day she would tell her husband that she
found her true soulmate and she had chanted long and hard about it and
it would be. Not 10 seconds after she had told him, he ran to the
kitchen, picked up a kitchen knife, and in front of their three
children he stabbed her four times in the back. She lingered in agony
for several hours.
This is the result of the perverted teachings of the Gakkai that makes
common mortals out of Buddhas.
Nikken: ''My view of the teachings of Nichiren Shoshu has been polluted'' May 2000 Dai-Nichiren
> Earthly Desire Equal Enlightenment in the Soka Gakkai is taught from
> the perspective of a common mortal rather from the perspective of the
> Buddha.
>
> The members are taught by their leaders that any desire or goal the
> member has, as long as they chant Namu Myoho renge kyo, is equal to
> Enlightenment. They are encouraged to chant for cars, boyfriends,
> houses, fame, even drugs and sex and that is equal to Enlightenment at
> the moment the desire is fulfilled.
>
You misquote the principle: "earthly desires ARE enlightenment". Two
separate things can be equal, the word "ARE" means they are the same
thing, not two separate things. I highlighted it below for you.
BTW, the SGI did not invent Lotus Sutra Buddhism, which this principle
is a part of. Here you go:
_________________________________
Craving-Filled
(Skt Ragaraja; Jpn Aizen-myo’o)
<http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=366>
The wisdom king Craving-Filled. A Buddhist deity who is said to purify
earthly desires and free people from the illusions and sufferings
caused by earthly desires. Craving-Filled belongs to a group of
deities, called the wisdom kings, who are said to destroy all
obstacles. Raga in his Sanskrit name means passion, love, affection,
and desire; and to be dyed or saturated, as with emotion, desire, or
love; raja means king. In Esoteric Buddhism, his true identity is
regarded as Vajrasattva. Craving-Filled appears on the Diamond Realm
mandala and is depicted with three eyes, six arms, and a furious face.
He holds a bow and arrows in his hands. On the Gohonzon, the object of
devotion inscribed by Nichiren (1222-1282), his name appears on the
left as one faces it, and symbolizes the principle that EARTHLY
DESIRES ARE ENLIGHTENMENT. See also earthly desires are enlightenment.
__________________________________________________
earthly desires are enlightenment
(Jpn bonno-soku-bodai)
<http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=495>
A Mahayana principle based on the view that earthly desires cannot
exist independently on their own; therefore one can attain
enlightenment without eliminating earthly desires. This contrasts with
the Hinayana view that extinguishing earthly desires is a prerequisite
for enlightenment. According to the Hinayana teachings, earthly
desires and enlightenment are two independent and opposing factors,
and the two cannot coexist; while the Mahayana teachings reveal that
earthly desires are one with and inseparable from enlightenment. This
is because all things, even earthly desires and enlightenment, are
manifestations of the unchanging reality or truth—and thus are non-
dual at their source.The Universal Worthy Sutra, an epilogue to the
Lotus Sutra, states, "Without either cutting off earthly desires or
separating themselves from the five desires, they can purify all their
senses and wipe away all their offenses." T'ient'ai (538-597) says in
Great Concentration and Insight, "The ignorance and dust of desires
are enlightenment, and the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana."
In The Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings, Nichiren
(1222-1282) states: "The idea of gradually overcom-ing delusions is
not the ultimate meaning of the 'Life Span' chapter [of the Lotus
Sutra]. You should understand that the ultimate meaning of this
chapter is that ordinary mortals, just as they are in their original
state of being, are Buddhas," and, "Today, when Nichiren and his
followers recite the words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, they are burning the
firewood of earthly desires, summoning up the wisdom-fire of
enlightenment."
________________________________________
> Since this matter is of utmost importance, I will give an example of a
> Soka Gakkai leader who believed faithfully in this perverted doctrine
> of the Soka Gakkai.
Actually, Buku/Mark Marazza, you distort everything so much that any
story you relate has got to be mistrusted.
In this story you relate events from the point of view and thoughts
from the mind of a murder victim.
Unless you have found a whole new way of obtaining testimony, your
story is at least partially fabricated. Can we trust the rest of it? I
think we should not.
> This was the day. This was the day she would tell her husband that she
> found her true soulmate and she had chanted long and hard about it and
> it would be. Not 10 seconds after she had told him, he ran to the
> kitchen, picked up a kitchen knife, and in front of their three
> children he stabbed her four times in the back. She lingered in agony
> for several hours.
By the way, Nichiren related to us the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra,
but he didn't invent or "fabricate" it, either. He left the
fabrications to persons who could not tolerate the Lotus Sutra, and
who needed to regress to the Hinayana view that "extinguishing earthly
desires is a prerequisite for enlightenment."
Aizen-myo’o is written on the Gohonzon, middle of the left side. Deal
with that reality.
As far as the confusion of members and leaders of the Sangha (and this
will happen), the large lettering down the middle of the Gohonzon says
Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, which (among other, innumerable meanings
springing from the one great law) means that cause and effect rules
above everything else.
Anyone who thinks that their earthly desires, which are enlightenment,
obviates the need for good old fashioned Kantian ethics are in for an
unfortunate surprise.
BTW, anyone who gloats over the misfortune that occurs from these
kinds of mistakes is a minion of the Devil King.
All gloating over the misfortunes of others is the property of the
sixth heaven. You are positively gloating over this tragedy and should
realize where that comes from.
-Chas.
Nikken: ''My view of the teachings of Nichiren Shoshu has been polluted'' May 2000 Dai-Nichiren
being Buddhas comes from Nichiren Daishonin, Dengyo, T'ien-T'ai and
Shakyamuni. Here, from the Gosho:
... The "Thus Come One's secret" refers to the entity of the
... Buddha's three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha.
... "His transcendental powers" refers to the functions of
... the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas.
... A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a
... true Buddha. A Buddha is a function of the three bodies,
... and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is
... thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three
... virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake
... of all of us living beings, that is not so. On the
... contrary, it is common mortals who endow him with the
... three virtues.
The True Aspect of All Phenomena, WND p. 384.
<http://www.sgilibrary.org/view.php?page=384&m=0&q=>
Also, one of the principles of Buddhism (from T'ien-T'ai) is:
____________________________________
oneness of living beings and Buddhas
(Jpn shobutsu-funi or shobutsu-ichinyo)
<http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=1607>
Also, oneness of ordinary people and Buddhas, or non-duality of living
beings and Buddhas. The principle that living beings and Buddhas are
not two different things but are essentially one. "Living beings" here
indicates life in its unenlightened form, or beings who are afflicted
with delusion. This principle is set forth in several Mahayana
Buddhist scriptures. The Flower Garland Sutra states, "The mind, the
Buddha, and all living beings — these three things are without
distinction." The Nirvana Sutra states, "All living beings alike
possess the Buddha nature." The Lotus Sutra reveals the true aspect of
all phenomena, indicating that, though different, all living beings,
the Buddha included, are manifestations of the ultimate reality. The
sutra also reads, "The Buddhas... wish to open the door of Buddha
wisdom to all living beings... to induce living beings to enter the
path of Buddha wisdom," because Buddha wisdom is inherent in all
living beings, i.e., all living beings are potential Buddhas. In
China, based on the Lotus Sutra, T'ient'ai (538-597) set forth the
principle of the mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, from Buddhahood
through hell, and the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single
moment of life.
________________________________________________
Live with that, as well.
-Chas.
Buku
Shoshu has been polluted'' May 2000 Dai-Nichiren" <p2q1r0s...@aol.com>
wrote:
A more blind man than you and your fellow SGI members can not be found
in the past, present or future. You gleefully recount the karmic
retribution of others but when it is pointed out the retribution of
one of your own, all we here from you is an ad hominim attack about
distorting the Dharma. The SGI is the biggest transgressor in the
distortion of the Lotus Sutra and teachings of Nichiren Daisonin in
the 750 year history of the Buddha founded sect. Here are the Soka
Gakkai actual [not theoretical] teachings on Bono Soku Bodhi:
SGI leader attempting to rationalize SGI's erroneous interpretation of
Earthly Desires are Equal to Enlightenment:
"Yes. To clarify what the Daishonin meant, on the Gohonzon he wrote
two names
in (medieval) ancient Indian Sanskrit, or Siddham. They are the
Buddhist deity
Ragaraja, which represents the principle of "earthly desires are
enlightenment,"
and the Buddhist deity Achala which represents the principle that "the
sufferings of birth and death are nirvana."
If it's on the Gohonzon, it's a very real part of our lives."
{Aizen-myo'o}
Ai means something like infatuation. The kanji read zen means stained
or dyed.
Aizen is a translation of raga. It is translated as passion, lust,
greed,
desire, gluttony, & craving; among other things. I think I like
infatuation for
raga.
The myo means light, a translation of vidya, meaning objective wisdom.
The O is,
of course a translation of raja, meaning king.
(Skt: Ragaraja) A Buddhist deity who is said to purify people's
afflictions and
free them from illusions {hleshas, bonnos} and the sufferings accruing
from
afflictions. In the esoteric teaching his true identity is regarded as
Dainichi
(Skt: Mahavairochana) Buddha or Kongosatta (Vajrasattva). Aizen is
pictured on
the Diamond World mandala and is depicted as being red in color with
three eyes, six arms and a furious expression. In his hand he has a
bow and arrows. His name is inscribed in Siddha, a medieval Sanskrit
orthography, on the left-hand side of the Gohonzon as one faces it,
signifying the principle that afflictions are enlightenment (Jap:
bonno soku bodai).
Source: A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and Concepts. NSIC: Tokyo.
1983. 1990.
Other meanings of aizen:
[Basic Meaning:] impassioned
To be caught by desire/attachment(Skt. rakta, saṃrakta, amiṣa;
Tib. chags
pa; kun tu chags pa) [cmuller; source(s): Nakamura,S.Hodge]
The taint of desire. (Skt. tṛṣṇ�, r�ga, )
[cmuller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa]
The Flammarion Iconographic Guide: Buddhism states:
"This Vidyaraja, who is venerated almost exclusively in Japan, is a
deity of
conception. He is the king of the magic science of attraction or of
love. 'Aizen
Myo-o represents in fact the amorous passion as it appears sublimated
in the
perspective of esotericism: victorious over itself, not by suppression
as
normally taught, but by a greater exaltation transmuted into a desire
for
Awakening.' He is sometimes identified with a ferocious form of
Vairocana,
although he is not one of the five great Vidyarajas. " (p.213)
The Guide also says:
"Due to his combative force, Fudo is invoked in many circumstances,
chiefly
against attacks of sickness - not because he is considered as a
healer, but as
an effective force to combat impurities and demons that cause illness.
He is
also invoked for protection against persons feared to be harmful and
against
spells cast by sorcerers. Fudo is also often considered as the
defender of Japan
against attack from external enemies. For all these reasons, he must
be one of
the Buddhist deities most often invoked in Japan, and also one of the
most
popular. The temples and sanctuaries dedicated to him are found
throughout the
countryside, in cities and at crossroads. Most of these temples belong
to the
Shingon and Tendai sects. Members of the Nichiren sect also worship
him, mainly
as the 'protector of the state'." (p.208)
"Aizen Myo-o is still venerated by the Japanese, and is often invoked
in
connection with petitions concerning love. Apart from this, he is not
a popular
deity except among artists, geishas and others in professions
connected with
matters of love." (p.214)
http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/ShuteiMandala/myo-o.html
The seed syllable hum
http://www.visiblemantra.org/hum.html
However, no one clarifies the true meaning of the Gohonzon and faith
in the Lotus Sutra and Eternal Buddha more than Nichiren Daishonin and
the Kempon Hokke:
The SGI's reliance on Aizen Myo and their misunderstanding of the
concept of Earthly Desires Equal Enlightenment [which should read,
Delusions are Equal to Enlightenment] is equivalent to a separate
enshrinement of this deity. It is a great slander of the Law. They
misunderstand the very nature of the Gohonzon and denigrate the
Original Eternal Buddha of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra,
Shakyamuni Buddha and the Gohonzon itself. This is the fundamental
cause for their ill effects. Nichiren Daishonin writes:
"For all the beings of this country of Japan the Buddha Shakya is
Ruler, Teacher, and Parent. Even the Heavenly Deities, the Five
Generations of the Earthly Deities, and the Ninetygenerations, gods
[kami] and humans, of the Human Kings are subordinates of the Buddha
Shakya." [Myoho bikuni gohenji or Reply to Bhikshuni Myoho]
Subordinates refer to retainers or vassels. Aizen Myo or Delusion are
Equal to Enlightenment is subordinate to Shakyamuni Buddha of the
Juryo Chapter and the Buddha nature of the Amala consciousness.
Therefore, earthly desires are subordinate to the Great Desire for
Buddhahood and the spread of the True Teachings.
In reply to Various People [Shonen Gohenji] we read:
'The whole of the country of Japan one and all will become the
disciples and lay donors of Nichiren. Those who have left the
household life among my disciples will become teachers of the Emperor
and Retired Emperor. The housholders will be ranged among the
Ministers of the Left and of the Right. Or even the whole of
Jambudvipa will all revere this doctrine."
This is why we have priests to clarify the teachings and the danger of
those unlearned SGI men and women. those who claim to have attained
what they have not, teaching the Lotus Sutra and the meaning of the
doctrines of Nichiren Daishonin. The "Whole Give Adoration" which
includes Aizen Myo who gives adoration to Namu Myoho renge kyo.
Therefore, our earthly desires or delusions give way to Namu Myoho
renge kyo, not the other way around as taught in the Soka Gakkai. They
are confused about the Gohonzon and they are confused about the
Buddha. How could they not be confused about everything else. Do not
believe them, not about anything. If you want guidance go to the
source. Go to the Lotus Sutra and the writings of Nichiren Daishonin
and if you still have questions seek out a priest who knows the heart
of the Sutra.
SGI member: You can chant for anything you like, the purpose of
chanting is to fulfill your every desire.
Shakabuku: Really? I always wanted a Cadillac Sevlle and a pretty
girlfriend.
SGI member: You can chant for ANYTHING you want. The purpose of
chanting is to accumulate actual proof in your life so you can
demonstrate the benefits of chanting to your family and friends and
create world peace.
Shakabuku: That sounds great, I think I will give it a try.
Two years later, the shakabuku has just totaled his shiny new Cadillac
and his pretty girlfriend ran away with the district chief. He is
devastated and he quits chanting.
This is a scenario that is all too common among the members of the SGI
and is one of the reasons, of the more than 500,000 people in the USA
who came to SGI Buddhism in the 60's, 70's and 80's, less than 35,000
have persevered in their practice.
Lets take the SGI teachings literally:
You chant to fulfill your desires. Your desires are fulfilled. By
fulfiilling your desires you attain Enlightenment.
What is it that is permanent in this world? A car? A girlfriend? A
house? Good health? Good friends? Joy? Nothing. There is nothing that
is permanent. Everything and everybody is as ephemeral as the dew on
the grass. Nevertheless, the SGI says chant for this and chant for
that and this is the purpose of Buddhism.
An SGI member concisely sums up the SGI teachings:
"Actual attachments are the source of enlightenment. Don't confuse
Mahayana with Hinayana Buddhism. We all have desires and it is within
the scope of Buddhism to fufill them in order to deepen our faith in
the effectiveness of this practice."
What is the source or cause of Enlightenment, according to the SGI?
"Attatchments" while, according to Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism,
attatchments are but temporary phenomena yet, according to the SGI,
attachments fulfill ones desires and leads to Enlightenment. We have
already seen that one aspect of phenomena is that nothing is
permanent. Therefore, there is nothing that one can attatch oneself to
permanently. Furthermore, to attatch oneself to anything, since all
things are impermanent, can not lead to the attainment of the awakened
state of Enlightenment which is absolute and permanent.
The awakened state clearly perceives, among other things, the
impermanence of all phenomena and no other perception that
characterizes the Enlightened state invalidates the truth of temporary
existence. Even the truth of the Middle Way does not invalidate the
truth of temporary existence. Therefore, it is absolutely useless to
rely on attatchments (impermanence) to arrive at the sublime life
state of Enlightenment. The Daishonin states:
"It is said in the Nirvana Sutra:' Before listening to the Lotus Sutra
we had all been of evil views.' Grand Master Miao-le explains this in
his Fa-hua hsuan-i shih-chi'en; ' The Buddha himself called his pre-
Lotus Three Teachings (zokyo, tsugyo and bekkyo) evil. ' Tientai
citing the words of the Nirvana Sutra just mentioned, says in his Mo-
ho Chih-kuan (Great Concentration and Insight): They called themselves
evil. Isn't "evil" bad? ' Miao-le explains this in his commentary on
the Mo-ho Chih-kuan:
'Evil means "wicked." Therefore we must know that only the engyo
(perfect teaching) among the Four Teachings is correct. But it has two
meanings. First, it means that following the "perfect
teaching" (engyo) while rejecting the
remaining three is correct, and rejecting the "perfect teaching" while
following the three is erroneous. This is a relative point of view.
Secondly it means that attachment to the "perfect teaching" is
considered erroneous while detachment from it is correct. This is an
absolute point of view in which there is no difference in the eyes of
the Buddha between the "perfect teaching" and the remaining three of
the so-called Four Teachings. Either way, we have to stay away from
error. It is bad to attatch ourselves to the "perfect teaching," how
much worse it is to attach ourselves to the Three Teachings!" (The
Opening of the Eyes).
What is it that the Daishonin means, in practical terms? He means that
if we attach ourselves to some desire, any desire, one can not attain
the sublime life state of Buddha. Let me give you a few examples,
albeit extreme examples
that are derived directly from SGI's and the SGI member's assertions
above:
One man is attached to eating. He chants to be able to eat the most
sumptuous food, whenever he wishes in order to prove the validity of
the practice. The person will surely realize this desire, according to
the SGI. He eats until he is 600 lbs. He develops diabetes,
hypertension and heart disease. The practice is proven according to
the SGI, the person attatches himself to his desire to eat and through
chanting and realizing this desire, he thus attains Enlightenment.
What really happens is that, instead of leading to Enlightenment,
attatching himself to his desire, he gets sick and becomes a poor
example of a Buddhist.
Another person loves to chant the Daimoku. He attaches himself to
chanting the Daimoku in order to attain Enlightenment. He determines
to chant the Daimoku continuously and realizes his desire by chanting
ten or more hours a day. Once again, according to the SGI, he proves
the validity of the practice.
The reality is that he disproves the practice despite realizing his
desire. He skips meals, fails to talk with the wife, and begins
missing work. He gets divorced and is layed off from work.
By forming attatchments, according to the SGI, one obtains
enlightenment but, as we see, the actual reality is that attachment
leads to misery. The Lotus Sutra, the Buddhas throughout the Three
Existences, and Nichiren Daishonin teach that attatchments lead to
suffering but why then, does the SGI teach otherwise? There are
several reasons: They misunderstand Buddhism; they emphasize quantity
rather than quality; they have huge egos and thinking themselves wiser
than Buddha Shakyamuni and Nichiren Daishonin; and their leaders are
deluded.
In the end, not one person has ever attained Buddhahood through the
SGI teachings.
Let the actual proof of that SGI's top Woman's Division Leader be a
warning to those who follow. It would be better to outlaw the SGI
distorted teachings than offer up ten thousand prayers.
Buku
response, up to:
http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/ShuteiMandala/myo-o.html
The seed syllable humhttp://www.visiblemantra.org/hum.html,
is a brief analysis by Robin Beck. The remaining part of the response
is mine.
Buku
Buku
In addition Chas, for you to bring up Kantian ethics is pure
hypocricy, the Soka Gakkai "Value Creation" Philosophy having
decimated the heart of Kant's philosophy of Goodness, Beauty, and
Truth. Worse, the arrogant Soka Gakkai has decimated the Lotus Sutra
and the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin by changing the Secret Law of
the Object of Worship.
Tang Huyen
Nikken: ''My view of the teachings of Nichiren
Shoshu has been polluted'' May 2000
Dai-Nichiren wrote:
> Buku:
> non-dual at their source.The Universal Worthy Sutra,
> an epilogue to the Lotus Sutra, states, "Without either
> cutting off earthly desires or separating themselves
> from the five desires, they can purify all their senses
> and wipe away all their offenses." T'ient'ai (538-597)
> says in Great Concentration and Insight, "The
> ignorance and dust of desires are enlightenment, and
> the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana." In The
> Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings, Nichiren
> (1222-1282) states: "The idea of gradually
> overcoming delusions is not the ultimate meaning of
> the 'Life Span' chapter [of the Lotus Sutra]. You
> should understand that the ultimate meaning of this
> chapter is that ordinary mortals, just as they are in
> their original state of being, are Buddhas," and,
> "Today, when Nichiren and his followers recite the
> words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, they are burning the
> firewood of earthly desires, summoning up the
> wisdom-fire of enlightenment."
The above exchange has not been replied to by any
regular of these boards. It seems that both sides of
the argument are realist and literalist, but leaving
that impression (which can be wrong) aside, the
content of what Nichiren says is close to the
standard orthodoxy of the Great Vehicle, in China
and Tibet, especially in some schools of Chan/Zen.
If I get the Japanese words right, bonno-soku-bodai
corresponds to Chinese fan-nao ji-shi pu-ti,
"Defilements/afflictions are just the same as
awakening". In the above translation, "earthly
desires" render "Defilements/afflictions" (kilesa,
klesha).
What do people think of what Nichiren says?
Tang Huyen
Hollywood Lee
Not studied Nichiren, but it appears to be a version of the idea held by
some that nirvana is samsara, samsara is nirvana (whatever that means).
DharmaTroll
wrote:
Well, for one thing, maybe it explains why those glazed-eyed
Nichirenegades who come up to you and give you little business cards
with the words Namu Myoho renge kyo on them are such annoying
assholes.
--DharmaTroll
Keynes
It's a dangerous half truth that can easily be taken
for the whole truth with disastrous results. Some
traditions don't teach to casual bystanders, nor explicitly
lay down the law. Those who know don't say, and
those who say don't know. Real understanding can't
be given nor taken.
It's like proverbs. There's a wise one for each occasion.
"Look before you leap." "He who hesitates is lost."
But which one is right?
This can give one a headache. What to do?
What to do? Why, have a headache of course.
(And that's already been done.)
Appledog
Funny, I never see such annoying people here in Asia.
Must be something in the water over there, I guess.
-
zenworm
possum
he's saying some sort of maths...
and if 6 turned out to be 9... for some reason i'm channelling
hendrix...
possum
halfawake
>>>>(Skt Ragaraja; Jpn Aizen-myo�o)
>>>>of the unchanging reality or truth�and thus are
I don't mind....,
I don't mind....,
robert
Julian
Chih-i would have been proud of him.
Julian
Yes, this is the pure land.
Julian
If a measely 5 characters makes them annoying assholes
where does that leave you with your incessant hectarage
of verbiosity?
Lee Rudolph
>Hollywood Lee wrote:
>> On 1/9/2010 4:42 PM, Tang Huyen wrote:
...
>>> What do people think of what Nichiren says?
>>
>> Not studied Nichiren, but it appears to be a version of the idea held by
>> some that nirvana is samsara, samsara is nirvana (whatever that means).
>
>Yes, this is the pure land.
This land is pure land,
This land is your land,
From the Mystery Tour land
To the snowy moorland ...
Lee Rudolph
Hollywood Lee
Didn't realize Nichiren used a pure land idea, though I suppose the idea
could be present in most forms of devotional Buddhism.
DharmaTroll
No, it's not the amount of verbosity, silly: it's the content. They
(1) state a simple blind-belief formula, that if you repeat a set of
magic words (actually just the opening verse of the Lotus Sutra in
Japanese); (2) they are hopelessly triumphalistic and put down all
other forms of Buddhism, and (like our Nutter-d00d) claim that the the
Pali Canon is bullshit and the Buddha was lying to ignorant towel-head
dolts, whereas the Lotus Sutra is the only 'true' teaching of the
Buddha -- indeed, Nichiren was a nutter who went around insulting and
attacking every school of Buddhism and claiming it was wrong, and his
contemporary followers have kept faithful to that practice.
As for my totally awesome ruminations, if you want to make a
complaint, take a number, right behind Charles. You whiners don't get
that this is a random access media: it's not like I'm leaving a 15
minute message on your answering machine which you have to listen to
in order to get to the next message. Duh! And I post entire articles
sometimes because I know you zen-potatoes are too lazy to click on the
damned link so I make it easier for you to read it.
--DharmaTroll
Julian
He was quite hostile to Pure Land Buddhism, and it's advocates,
but those are kind of in a different category.
Hollywood Lee
Interesting. From the outside, both seem to be in the same category of
devotional Buddhism, but with Nichiren more of an "in this lifetime"
sort of approach.
I suppose, though, the differences with those in your same category are
the most defined and combustible. The "so close, yet still damned"
phenomenon.
Julian
I didn't mean that his Buddhism and Pure Land Buddhism were in different
categories.
In that sense I agree with you... what I was, perhaps clumsily, trying
to distinguish
was that the concept of the Pure Land was in a different category to
Pure land Buddhism
and it's advocates. Hence Nichiren could be quite happy with the device
of the Pure Land
while at the same time religiously and delightedly diss it's advocates.
Hollywood Lee
Ah. Got it.
zenworm
pure land avacado
^~
zenworm
"zen-potatoes"?
PAH! Still too many "i"s
^~
Wompom
news:nIqdnSghC6TOidTW...@supernews.com...
I think if you are working with strong desires you are working with rocket
fuel...
(Best a good grounding in boring Buddhsim first?)
Julian
That's not unrelated to the mindset that had the
first translator of the bible from Latin into English
burned at the stake.
possum
they never mention the crispy fried noodle and mushy peas...
Déjà Flu
dont forget the chilis and squid!
norbu_tragri
wrote:
well, it reminds me of classical Mahayana deconstruction of language
and story.
"The Awakening Of Faith In The Mahayana" sums up these Prajnaparamita
and
Third-Turning deconstructions...somewhat...a bit hard to make excerpts
for
the readers here (i know you know the text)...here's a bit...:
The revelation of the true meaning of the principle of Mahayana can be
achieved by unfolding the doctrine that the principle of One Mind has
two aspects. One is the aspect of Mind in terms of the Absolute
(tathata; Suchness), and the other is the aspect of Mind in terms of
phenomena (samsara; birth and death). Each of these two aspects
embraces all states of existence. Why? Because these two aspects are
mutually inclusive.
...
The essence of Mind is free from thoughts. The characteristic of that
which is free from thoughts is analogous to that of the sphere of
empty space that pervades everywhere.
...
Grounded on the original enlightenment is nonenlightenment. And
because of nonenlightenment, the process of actualization of
enlightenment can be spoken of.
...
All modes (lakshana) of mind and consciousness under the state of
nonenlightenment are the products of ignorance. Ignorance does not
exist apart from enlightenment; therefore, it cannot be destroyed
[because one cannot destroy something which does not really exist],
and yet it cannot not be destroyed [insofar as it remains]. This is
like the relationship that exists between the water of the ocean
[i.e., enlightenment] and its waves [i.e., modes of mind] stirred by
the wind [i.e., ignorance]. Water and wind are inseparable; but water
is not mobile by nature, and if the wind stops the movement ceases.
...
The characteristics of the essence of enlightenment have four great
significances that are identical with those of empty space or that are
analogous to those of a bright mirror.
First, the essence of enlightenment is like a mirror which is really
empty of images. It is free from all marks of objects of the mind and
it has nothing to reveal in itself, for it does not reflect any
images.
Second, it is like a mirror influencing (vasana) all men to advance
toward enlightenment. That is to say, it is truly nonempty; appearing
in it are all the objects of the world which neither go out nor come
in; which are neither lost nor destroyed. It is eternally abiding One
Mind. All things appear in it because all things are real. And none of
the defiled things are able to defile it, for the essence of wisdom
[i.e., original enlightenment] is unaffected by defilements, being
furnished with an unsoiled quality and influencing all men to advance
toward enlightenment.
...
Because of not truly realizing oneness with Suchness, there emerges an
unenlightened mind and consequently, its thoughts. These thoughts do
not have any validity to be substantiated; therefore, they are not
independent of the original enlightenment. It is like the case of a
man who has lost his way: he is confused because of his wrong sense of
direction. If he is freed from the notion of direction altogether,
then there will be no such thing as going astray. It is the same with
men: because of the notion of enlightenment, they are confused. But if
they are freed from the fixed notion of enlightenment, then there will
be no such thing as nonenlightenment.
...
Fourth is the aspect of the speculation (vikalpa) on names and letters
[i.e., concepts]. On the basis of erroneous attachments, the deluded
mind analyzes words which are provisional and therefore devoid of
reality.
Fifth is the aspect of giving rise to evil karma. Relying on names and
letters [i.e., concepts which have no validity, the deluded mind]
investigates names and words and becomes attached to them, and creates
manifold types of evil karma.
...
(1) Identity
Just as pieces of various kinds of pottery are of the same nature in
that they are made of clay, so the various magic-like manifestations
(maya) of both enlightenment (anasrava: nondefilement) and
nonenlightenment (avidya: ignorance) are aspects of the same essence,
Suchness. For this reason, it is said in a sutra that "all sentient
beings intrinsically abide in eternity and are entered into nirvana.
The state of enlightenment is not something that is to be acquired by
practice or to be created. In the end, it is unobtainable [for it is
given from the beginning]." Also it has no corporeal aspect that can
be perceived as such. Any corporeal aspects [such as the marks of the
Buddha] that are visible are magic-like products of Suchness
manifested in accordance with the mentality of men in defilement. It
is not, however, that these corporeal aspects which result from the
suprarational functions of wisdom are of the nature of nonemptiness
[i.e., substantial]; for wisdom has no aspects that can be perceived.
(2) Nonidentity
Just as various pieces of pottery differ from each other, so
differences exist between the state of enlightenment and that of
nonenlightenment, and between the magic-like manifestations of
Suchness manifested in accordance with the mentality of men in
defilement, and those of men of ignorance who are defiled [i.e.,
blinded] as to the essential nature of Suchness.
....
Should there be a man who desires to practice "cessation", he should
stay in a quiet place and sit erect in an even temper. His attention
should be focused neither on breathing nor on any form or color, nor
on empty space, earth, water, fire, wind, nor even on what has been
seen, heard, remembered, or conceived. All thoughts, as soon as they
are conjured up, are to be discarded, and even the thought of
discarding them is to be put away, for all things are essentially in
the state of transcending thoughts, and are not to be created from
moment to moment nor to be extinguished from moment to moment; thus
one is to conform to the essential nature of Reality (dharmata)
through this practice of cessation.
-----
and so forth.
The clinging to a story of "worldy" activity and the clinging to a
story of "renunciation"
are both clinging to a story. Neither is an obstacle, but rather a
path for mindfulness -
just look - the openness, not getting caught-up in the story nor
pushing it away changes
the weight etc....The lotus (non-attachment) grows from the muddy
pond. In the bodhisattva
path as well as in the buddha's time of teaching, whatever happens in
the world is the
way to open up the buddhadharma, the pureland idea. There are
mountains of texts explaining these insights...it's difficult to chose
aphorisms and leave the full examination of
language, story, ego, attachment, etc, ways of working with that,
etc...
You know a couple of my favorite quotes:
"Manjusri," said the god Brahma,"is what you have been telling me the
Absolute Truth?"
"All words are true," said Manjusri.
"Are lies then also true?" asked Brahma.
"They are," said Manjusri."And why? Good sir, all words are empty,
vain
and belong to no point in space. To be empty and vain and to belong
to
no point in space is the characteristic
of Absolute Truth.
So in that sense all words are true.
Between the words of Devadatta and the Tathagata there is no
difference
or distinction at all.
How is this? All possible words are words of the Tathagata; there is
no
getting outside him or outside of what is So.
Whatever can be said in words is able to say something only by dint of
saying nothing at all."
- Visesha-cinta Brahma-pariprccha-sutra (Takakusu,XV,50 and 82)
This quote seems to go well with that:
Mañjushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as without inequality and
nondual, this is
right view.
**Mañjushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as unseen, seeing them
as without thought,
without conception, completely without discursive thought, this is
right thought.**
**Mañjushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as inexpressible, this
is right speech.**
Mañjushri, completely establishing all dharmas in a manner without
effort and without
establishing is right effort.
Mañjushri, seeing all dharmas without engaged attention and
mindfulness is right
mindfulness.
**Mañjushri, since all dharmas are not conceptualized, they are
naturally at rest in meditative
equality/equanimity. Seeing them in the non-disturbance of non-
conception is right
samadhi.**
- The Sutra Teaching the Side of Enlightenment
(byang chub phyogs bstan pa’i mdo)
And this other quote:
People often try to discriminate between "good" thoughts and "bad"
thoughts, like trying to separate milk from water. It is easy enough
to accept the negative experiences in life but much harder to see the
positive experiences as part of the path.
***Some individuals will be able to use both thoughts and the absence
of thoughts as meditation, but it should be borne in mind that that
which notes what is happening is the tight grip of ego.***
When thoughts are absent the meditator is completely immersed in the
space of non-thought. ***The "absence of thoughts" does not mean
unconsciousness or sleep or withdrawal from the senses, but simply
being unmoved by conflict.*** The three signs of meditation clarity,
joy and absence of thoughts may occur naturally when a person
meditates, but if an effort is made to create them the meditator still
remains in the circle of samsara.
Look out for the subtle hindrance of trying to analyze experiences.
This is a great danger. It is too early to label all thoughts as
dharmakaya [the body of ultimate truth]. The remedy is the wisdom of
nowness, changeless and unfailing. Once freed from ***the bondage of
philosophical speculation***, the meditator develops penetrating
awareness in his practice.
It is a mistake to try to concentrate on emptiness and, after
meditation, intellectually to regard everything as a mirage.
***Primordial insight is the state which is not influenced by the
undergrowth of thoughts.*** It is a mistake to be on guard against the
wandering mind or to try and imprison the mind in the ascetic practice
of suppressing thoughts.
It is likewise a mistake, when discursive thoughts are pacified, to
overlook the clarity and regard the mind as merely blank. The
experience of true insight is the simultaneous awareness of both
stillness and active thoughts.
*It is a mistake to try to introduce some remedy for thoughts without
realizing that thoughts are by nature void and that one can free
oneself like a snake unwinding.*
It is also a mistake to hold a nihilistic view that there is nothing
but the void, no cause and effect of karma and no meditator nor
meditation, failing to experience the openess which is beyond
conceptions.
The Lion's Roar by Jigme Lingpa
Classic Mahayana approach to mindfulness, not clinging to one shore or
the other.
Classic Theravada is equally agile in not buying into the stories
while not
posing some void to cling to. Nichiren's teaching on this uses
Shingon's tantra
style of "Ragaraja" as a way of teaching "just look". There are a
couple Shingon
tantra ideas on Nichiren's Gohonzon - he used any idea to communicate
his insights.
i don't know that much about Nichiren...read a bit....some seems good,
some seems
wtf....translations are a problem....
- n.
Wompom
news:hiipa0$hfg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
There are good desires and Tanha fueled by strong "attachment" which are two
entirely different things imo)
Maybe what I should have said is:
"Better to get a good grounding in boring Buddhist ethics/morality before
attempting to work with Tanha fueled by "attachement"
Standard tantric "Health Warning" No?
Perhaps applicable to any path that brings in "desire" as part of its
mechanism?
Wompom
news:d3f34dca-642d-45f7...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
...
...
...
(1) Identity
(2) Nonidentity
and so forth.
Ma�jushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as without inequality and
nondual, this is
right view.
**Ma�jushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as unseen, seeing them
as without thought,
without conception, completely without discursive thought, this is
right thought.**
**Ma�jushri, wherever someone sees all dharmas as inexpressible, this
is right speech.**
Ma�jushri, completely establishing all dharmas in a manner without
effort and without
establishing is right effort.
Ma�jushri, seeing all dharmas without engaged attention and
mindfulness is right
mindfulness.
**Ma�jushri, since all dharmas are not conceptualized, they are
And this other quote:
- n.
Without morality there is no buddhism
Julian
It still sounds elitist and patronising.
Too much wiggle room for the priests to stick their noses in the trough.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
norbu_tragri
> "norbu_tragri" <norbu.tra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> nondual, this is
> right view.
>
> as without thought,
> without conception, completely without discursive thought, this is
> right thought.**
>
> is right speech.**
>
> Mañjushri, completely establishing all dharmas in a manner without
> effort and without
> establishing is right effort.
>
> mindfulness is right
> mindfulness.
>
> **Mañjushri, since all dharmas are not conceptualized, they are
Indeed! Having examined view and mindfulness that is the next and
necessary aspect of the path.
(Although i would argue that the appropriate English word is "ethics"
not "morality" - "morality"
is usually used to refer to a code of conduct imposed by a god,
whereas "ethics" usually refers
to a personal insight into what is beneficial to everyone, to society,
the planet as a whole, and
to the individual. "Moral" codes imagined to be imposed by some god
are currently leading to much
bloodshed and suffering.) A few brief quotes from the suttas/sutras:
"And what is right speech?
Abstaining from lying,
abstaining from divisive speech,
abstaining from abusive speech,
abstaining from idle chatter:
This, monks, is called right speech.
"And what, monks, is right action?
Abstaining from taking life,
abstaining from stealing,
abstaining from sexual intercourse [for a runciate, "sexual miscoduct"
for a lay person]:
This, monks, is called right action.
"And what, monks, is right livelihood?
There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones,
having abandoned dishonest livelihood,
keeps his life going with right livelihood:
This, monks, is called right livelihood.
Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8
Magga-vibhanga Sutta
An Analysis of the Path
The next quote distinguishes between ethical approaches with
"fermentations"
(the three poisons of actions motivated by personal gain, loss, or
ignoring
for example one might practice the right speech to gain the approval
of others -
that is ethical action with clinging to the results "fermentations"
and does not
help much with liberation):
"[3] Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the
forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right
speech as right speech. And what is wrong speech? Lying, divisive tale-
bearing, abusive speech, & idle chatter. This is wrong speech.
"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts:
There is right speech with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting
in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right speech,
without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"And what is the right speech that has fermentations, sides with
merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive
tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the
right speech that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in
acquisitions.
"And what is the right speech that is without fermentations,
transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting,
abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct in one
developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without
fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the
right speech that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of
the path.
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This
is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to
enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus
these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness
-- run & circle around right speech.
"[4] Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the
forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right
action as right action. And what is wrong action? Killing, taking what
is not given, illicit sex. This is wrong action.
"And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two sorts:
There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting
in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right action,
without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"And what is the right action that has fermentations, sides with
merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from killing, from taking
what is not given, & from illicit sex. This is the right action that
has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
"And what is the right action that is without fermentations,
transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting,
abstinence, avoidance of the three forms of bodily misconduct in one
developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without
fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the
right action that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of
the path.
"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This
is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to
enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus
these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness
-- run & circle around right action.
"[5] Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the
forerunner? One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and
right livelihood as right livelihood. And what is wrong livelihood?
Scheming, persuading, hinting, belittling, & pursuing gain with gain.
This is wrong livelihood.
"And what is right livelihood? Right livelihood, I tell you, is of two
sorts: There is right livelihood with fermentations, siding with
merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble
right livelihood, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the
path.
"And what is the right livelihood that has fermentations, sides with
merit, & results in acquisitions? There is the case where a disciple
of the noble ones abandons wrong livelihood and maintains his life
with right livelihood. This is the right livelihood that has
fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
"And what is the right livelihood that is without fermentations,
transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting,
abstinence, avoidance of wrong livelihood in one developing the noble
path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is
fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right livelihood that
is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right
livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon
wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is
one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view,
right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right
livelihood.
Majjhima Nikaya 117
Maha-cattarisaka Sutta
The Great Forty
The difference between ethics with and without clinging to
fermentations is that of primarily looking
for personal gain, of shoring up ego, of keeping the drama of the
nidanas running.
In like style we find the bodhisattamagga in the northern tradition
sometimes being
described as a "via negativia" (what the path is not) :
No fixation is generosity.
No guarding of anything is discipline.
No dwelling is that which is designated patience.
No effort is what is called exertion.
No wishing is what is designated dhyana.
No conception is what is known as prajña.
The Sutra requested by Pure Special Mind (tshangs pa khyad par sems
kyis zhus pa’i mdo)
The rejection of fixated stories and concepts and the clinging to them
is not at all a
rejection of ethics, quite the opposite.
If you walk into a room and fixate on the story that everyone there is
your enemy, or your
lovers, or worthless people - clinging to those stories, those
fermations, is tahna/trsna.
Those reactions might come up as "reactions" (automatic) - but
clinging to them (upadana)
sets the chains of patityasamutpada in motion again.
So samadhi and mindfulness and ethics have to work together so that
when that fine point between
automatic reaction and further clinging happens we can just see it and
not buy into it.
If someone 'hurts', 'pleases', (etc) us we can see beyond automatic
robotic reactions,
step outside of the chains of the nidanas.
great time in the discussion to raise this point!!!
thanx! :)
- n.
brian mitchell
>Without morality there is no buddhism
I'm going to first disagree with this statement, then later agree with
it.
The sutta extracts Norbu posted show just how weak and conventional
traditional Buddhist thought on this subject is. Don't steal, don't
lie, don't put it where it don't belong --the same primitive social
mores to be found in any culture. The proposition is that by adopting
certain approved behaviours you will attain to some nobility of mind,
which is very doubtful. Behaviours, or rules, or ideals imposed from
without are in direct opposition to the essence of Buddhism (as I see
it), which is to turn the light of the mind inward to *discover* what
is there *before* all such externalities arise.
As an alternative I propose that the Good (to go back to a less
religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
it has no rules, no codes of behaviour, that can be followed. It can
only be discerned in the present moment amidst whatever conditions
obtain there; it's a living dimension of what-is, which is always
changing, and which needs creativity to realise. Without *this* kind
of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism.
Anything else is just cultural obedience --some of which is also
necessary, no doubt, but has very little to do with the discovery of
mind.
norbu_tragri
> "Wompom" wrote:
> >Without morality there is no buddhism
>
> I'm going to first disagree with this statement, then later agree with
> it.
>
> The sutta extracts Norbu posted show just how weak and conventional
> traditional Buddhist thought on this subject is. Don't steal, don't
> lie, don't put it where it don't belong --the same primitive social
> mores to be found in any culture. The proposition is that by adopting
> certain approved behaviours you will attain to some nobility of mind,
> which is very doubtful. Behaviours, or rules, or ideals imposed from
> without are in direct opposition to the essence of Buddhism (as I see
> it), which is to turn the light of the mind inward to *discover* what
> is there *before* all such externalities arise.
hi brian,
i agree with your view here- that was somewhat the case in the first
sutta i quoted Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta
An Analysis of the Path). But it did not suggest that it was to attain
some
"nobility of mind". The basic principle of ethics in the first quote
was to not
create harm to others, thus not creating backlashes and further drama,
further chaos and enmity, strife, etc so that one could practice the
other branches
of the path, i.e., view and samadhi.
The second sutta quote covered your criticism here - that ethics
practiced
as a a mere formulaic "moral dogma" imposed from "above" to get
personal gain
mere not genuine ethics at all. {Majjhima Nikaya 117 Maha-cattarisaka
Sutta
The Great Forty) It distinguishes between "morality" practiced in in a
personal
drama story ("with fermations") and ethics that are without clinging
to drama,
personal gain, etc. "Drop the drama and stories."
The third quote was from the northern tradition and presented ethics
as being
rid of personal drama/stories - nothing to be imposed or dropped, just
what follows
naturally:
"No fixation is generosity.
No guarding of anything is discipline.
No dwelling is that which is designated patience.
No effort is what is called exertion.
No wishing is what is designated dhyana.
No conception is what is known as prajña. "
The three quotes move from a position of not causing harm to gain
peace in the world, to not harming doing good without any sense
of personal gain or loss, to just being natural(so to speak),
intuitive, no story or dogma.
>
> As an alternative I propose that the Good (to go back to a less
> religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
> as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
> encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
> which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
> it has no rules, no codes of behaviour, that can be followed.
Just so the second and third quote were about that - we move away from
morals "with fermations" (stories/dramas/gain-loss) to ethics without
such "fermations", then into letting all dogmas and stories go...
> It can
> only be discerned in the present moment amidst whatever conditions
> obtain there; it's a living dimension of what-is, which is always
> changing, and which needs creativity to realise. Without *this* kind
> of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism.
> Anything else is just cultural obedience --some of which is also
> necessary, no doubt, but has very little to do with the discovery of
> mind.
Just so.
"Without *this* kind
of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism."
But for some folks to get there they might have to make some peace in
their lives
(first quote) so that there isn't constant warring with others,
then to look at where ethics are dogmatic or self-serving (second
quote).
i don't see where Wompom said anything different in saying
"Without morality there is no buddhism ".
we go from dogma/practicality, to insight, to trusting in heart/
intuition -
some folks might start here or there in the process as they can
connect and
let go...
- :)
- n.
Tang Huyen
brian mitchell wrote:
The Buddha beat up on himself mercilessly for six years
during his Jaina self-starvation and self-mortification
period, then realised that it had been a big error,
whereupon he stopped it, relented and took milk to
regain strength. At that point, he was at peace with
himself and in reconciliation with himself, as opposed to
the haunted, relentless self-torture that he had imposed
on himself during the previous six years. He was then
a Stoic sage. He further went ahead in calming all his
compositions (the fourth aggregate) all the way, which
entailed that his mind was completely stopped, gently
and not forcibly (he had just left imposing on himself
and forcing himself into unnatural acts, like stopping all
thought by force and stopping breathing by force, so he
was not going back to more of the same), and that he
was not doing anything. Unbeknownst to him, he was
experiencing blowing-out (Nirvana), and it was just
non-doing (an-abhisamskara) and non-willing
(an-abhisamcetana). After coming out of it and partially
resuming normal patterns (like thinking and willing),
he realised how incredibly calm and peaceful it had
been, and that during it he did nothing. That was the
point that he tried to get across to his best disciples, with
whom he could talk straight, without roundabout, but he
also had to dumb down his teaching for the unwashed
masses, and that was the origin of his formal and
classical teachings, like the Four Noble Truths, the Noble
Eightfold Path, the Twelve-Membered Dependent Arisal,
the Nine Successive Attainments (the four form
meditations, the four formless attainments, the cessation
attainment), the Four Divine Abodes, the Discipline
(Vinaya), etc. Those (all his teachings other than
non-doing and non-willing) were his attempts at
accommodation with lesser capacities. (This division is
less than air-tight, and there were cases which fell in
between, like when he told Bahiya "In the seen there is
just the seen", and Bahiya awoke, but let us remember
that a derivative of the Buddha's awakening is that mind,
meaning the normal, thinking and willing mind, never
perfectly matches what happens, so that categories and
mental boxes are at best useful but never perfect).
On one side, there is the normal, thinking and willing
mind, which constantly calculates for survival (and
survival can include altruism, which in a sense fosters
survival of the community as an aggregate), and survival
demands a self and a person as an empirical unit with
limits and boundaries and with interests, the biggest one
of which being survival (of the person, more broadly of
the community). On the other, survival is abandoned as
a priority, all patterns, structures and frameworks are
abandoned, thinking and willing are abandoned,
knowledge and learning are abandoned, at least
temporarily, and mind completely quiesces itself, gently
and not forcibly, and does nothing, surely nothing for
survival. This state and the preparation for it surely do
nothing to foster survival, and indeed do much in way
of actively inhibiting any interest for survival, like not
putting up resistance, not looking for self-interests, not
building up a self and personhood but rather letting go
of them, right down to not imposing any limit and
boundary. The reward for it is immense calm, immense
peace, utter ease, which contrast with the normal
condition of affliction (kilesa/klesha, also translated as
defilement, but the Russian Buddhologist Theodor
Stcherbatsky brilliantly translates as oppression).
Something as simple as forgiveness can give a taste of it,
as a state of absence of oppression. Blowing-out is total
and complete absence of oppression, and the
oppression, if it exists, is self-imposed, it is optional,
otherwise there would be no way out.
From such a perspective, morality is quite relative (but
from such a perspective, everything is quite relative,
quite fluffy), and the Buddha explicitly teaches the
putting down of merit and demerit, male and female,
"better, same, worse", etc. It is true that to attain to it,
there is a strong regimen of discipline, from mental
discipline to morality, that helps foster such a state, but
all of it is mere means and not the end in itself, and
once one has experienced such a state, even such a
state is relative and fluffy and not a firm and rigid
end-goal to be attained at any cost, because it would
then be binding and not releasing.
It is sad that poseurs, fakers and pretenders like Fu
and Renli/Appledog (and previously, the late Hal
Hesse) deliberately take such a state of absence of
distinction as carte blanche for doing anything, even as
they have never attained to the state of mind that would
enable it, namely the state of non-doing and non-willing.
A first step in Buddhist training is non-resistance, and
such poseurs, fakers and pretenders have never learnt
it, and they have learnt it so little that they do not even
pretend to fake it.
Let us return to a passage from Nichiren that was
quoted in an earlier post ("earthly desires" is a
dumbed-down translation for affliction/defilement,
kilesa/klesha):
<<A Mahayana principle based on the view that
earthly desires cannot exist independently on their
own; therefore one can attain enlightenment without
eliminating earthly desires. This contrasts with the
Hinayana view that extinguishing earthly desires is a
prerequisite for enlightenment. According to the
Hinayana teachings, earthly desires and enlightenment
are two independent and opposing factors, and the
two cannot coexist; while the Mahayana teachings
reveal that earthly desires are one with and inseparable
from enlightenment. This is because all things, even
earthly desires and enlightenment, are manifestations
of the unchanging reality or truth�and thus are
non-dual at their source.>>
This use of emptiness ("earthly desires cannot exist
independently on their own", "earthly desires are one
with and inseparable from enlightenment", "are
non-dual at their source") is an intellectual justification
and validation for doing anything, by reducing the
contraries to some common ground, here lack of
independent existence, but this lack of independent
existence is to be attained to and lived in the flesh,
not excogitated by thought alone. One has to go
through the complete, rigorous training (here called
the Little Vehicle, Hinayana) and attain to its end
before one can put down all distinctions, in the total
and complete quiescence of mind, and not fake it by
merely pretending intellectually to leave aside all
distinctions (here called Great Vehicle, Mahayana).
The leaving aside of all distinctions already exists in
the early canon, as taught by the historical Buddha,
but it is not a thought-up state, it is rather an
un-thought-up state, where thinking and willing have
been abandoned.
It is true that somebody who has truly attained to such
quiescence of mind can talk the same way as Nichiren,
but does not use it to justify and validate the licence to
do anything. The line of thought (and action) of
Nichiren would lead directly to the entire Japanese
Buddhism, but especially Japanese Zen, to justify and
validate the mass killing of foreign civilians in WW II
by Japanese soldiers trained by Japanese Zen masters,
and not just to justify and validate it, but to encourage
it and advocate it all the way. As I often say, the
Japanese national religion is the Japanese herd instinct,
and formal religions in the normal sense, like
Buddhism and Shintoism, are tolerated insofar as they
subserve such instinct, which is the Japanese national
religion. The recent posts on the mass suicide of the
Japanese soldiers *and civilians* at Saipan near the
end of WW II testify vividly to such herd instinct,
elevated to the level of national religion.
The Wikipedia says:
<<Many hundreds of Japanese civilians committed
suicide in the last days of the battle, some jumping
from "Suicide Cliff" and "Banzai Cliff". Efforts by U.S.
troops to persuade them to surrender instead were
mostly futile. Widespread propaganda in Japan
portraying Americans and British as "devils" who
would treat POWs barbarically, deterred surrender
(see Japanese Military Propaganda (WWII))>>
Ned quoted from a site mentioned by Wilson:
http://www.ghostofaflea.com/archives/005445.html
(here quoted in slightly different form):
<<... since Saipan had become a part of Hirohito's
domain in 1919, over eighteen thousand Japanese
civilians had settled there. Tojo's propaganda officers
had been lecturing them since Pearl Harbor,
describing the Americans as sadistic, redheaded, hairy
monsters who committed unspeakable atrocities before
putting all Nipponese, including women and infants, to
the sword. As the battle turned against Saito's troops,
these civilians, panicking, had fled northward to Marpi
Point. After the great banzai obliterated their army,
depriving them of their protectors, they decided that
they, too, must die. Most of them gathered on two
heights now called Banzai Cliff, an eighty-foot bluff
overlooking the water, and, just inland from there.
Suicide Cliff, which soars one thousand feet above
clumps of jagged rocks.
... Saito [the Japanese commander] had left a last
message to his civilian countrymen, too: "As it says in
the Senjinkum [Ethics], 'I will never suffer the disgrace
of being taken alive,' and I will offer up the courage of
my soul and calmly rejoice in living by the eternal
principle." In a final, cruel twist of the knife he
reminded mothers of the oyaku-shinju (the
parents-children death pact). Mothers, fathers,
daughters, sons? all had to die. Therefore children
were encouraged to form circles and toss live grenades
from hand to hand until they exploded. Their parents
dashed babies' brains out on limestone slabs and then,
clutching the tiny corpses, shouted "Tenno! Haiki!
Banzai!" (Long live the Emperor!) as they jumped off
the brinks of the cliffs and soared downward. Below
Banzai Cliff U.S. destroyers trying to rescue those
who had survived the plunge found they could not
steer among so many bodies; human flesh was
jamming their screws. .. . But Suicide Cliff was worse.
A brief strip of jerky newsreel footage, preserved in an
island museum, shows a distraught mother, her baby
in her arms, darting back and forth along the edge of
the precipice, trying to make up her mind. Finally she
leaps, she and her child joining the ghastly carnage
below. There were no survivors at the base of Suicide
Cliff.>>
Afflictions are awakening, in flesh and blood, eh?
Tang Huyen
brian mitchell
>No conception is what is known as praj�a. "
>
>The three quotes move from a position of not causing harm to gain
>peace in the world, to not harming doing good without any sense
>of personal gain or loss, to just being natural(so to speak),
>intuitive, no story or dogma.
Norbu, thanks for your reply. Of course I grossly mischaracterised the
suttas but there is a *something* which I'm trying to get at which
seems at least to either go in a different direction to them or come
from a different place.
Even your third quote, your "via negativa," just being natural, has a
somewhat different cast to what I was attempting to give expression
to. That difference (which might actually disqualify me from any claim
to be following a Buddhist path) is between the negative, empty
approach and something more positive and attractive (in the sense of
being drawn towards). As your quotes show, even those expressions of
ethics labelled Right something-or-other turn out to be matters of
abstention, what is *not* to be done. IOW, one does right by not doing
wrong. What I'm seeing is more the good announcing itself (to the
self-listening mind) as what IS to be done --not as a matter of rule
or law but one of fullness and flowering (more heresy!)
At a certain period of my childhood I told a lot of lies. It was my
way of negotiating a very oppressive and punitive imposition from the
adult world. But I didn't want to lie. In fact, I always wanted NOT to
lie. Truth and trust was what I naturally wanted and instinctively
leaned towards. In this way I would link morality with the unfolding
of an innate positive responsivity. Lots of words there. Is this only
a difference of emphasis or something more?
>>
>> As an alternative I propose that the Good (to go back to a less
>> religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
>> as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
>> encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
>> which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
>> it has no rules, no codes of behaviour, that can be followed.
>
>Just so the second and third quote were about that - we move away from
>morals "with fermations" (stories/dramas/gain-loss) to ethics without
>such "fermations", then into letting all dogmas and stories go...
>
>> It can
>> only be discerned in the present moment amidst whatever conditions
>> obtain there; it's a living dimension of what-is, which is always
>> changing, and which needs creativity to realise. Without *this* kind
>> of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism.
>> Anything else is just cultural obedience --some of which is also
>> necessary, no doubt, but has very little to do with the discovery of
>> mind.
>
>Just so.
>
>"Without *this* kind
>of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism."
>
>But for some folks to get there they might have to make some peace in
>their lives
>(first quote) so that there isn't constant warring with others...
Perhaps so, but I have to say I'm doubtful, given the way we are, that
anyone can relinquish an habitual strategy without some inward turning
to something perceived as better. There would have to be a sense of
the desirability of peace which --I would say-- could only come from
some inner knowing of peace, however shadowy. I don't see this in
itself as a self-serving fermentation, though that could of course
happen.
>i don't see where Wompom said anything different in saying
>
>"Without morality there is no buddhism ".
Perhaps not, but as a statement it cried out for unpacking (and made a
useful springboard).
possum
Brian, i just wanted to let you know i appreciate your posts...excuse
me as i'm a little brain dead, but are you getting at something that
might be described as an innate moral compass and/or some experience
of peace as requisite for awakening...
possum
zenworm
wrote:
Lay down flat on your back facing the stars...
now perceive the earth.
^~
brian mitchell
Not as a requisite to awakening; I don't think I'd know anything about
those. And not exactly an innate moral *compass*, something more
direct, more that goodness or a moral/ethical sense is innate and
alive in us if we can see past our own narrow interests. That is quite
a big 'if', I know. I suppose tuning in to what is already within is
part of the process of awakening, or at least of meditation. But my
main interest is this possible argument between negation (dropping,
emptiness, etc) and whatever the opposite of negation is --I'm a
little braindead myself and deleted all the posts from my newsreader
and am having to reply via google groups-- being positively responsive
or something. I should com back to this.
Tang Huyen
brian mitchell wrote:
> Not as a requisite to awakening; I don't think I'd
> know anything about those. And not exactly an
> innate moral *compass*, something more direct,
> more that goodness or a moral/ethical sense is
> innate and alive in us if we can see past our own
> narrow interests. That is quite a big 'if', I know. I
> suppose tuning in to what is already within is part
> of the process of awakening, or at least of
> meditation. But my main interest is this possible
> argument between negation (dropping, emptiness,
> etc) and whatever the opposite of negation is --I'm
> a little braindead myself and deleted all the posts
> from my newsreader and am having to reply via
> google groups-- being positively responsive or
> something. I should com back to this.
What people do in mental culture is often just a
window dressing, and what is more basic, more
fundamental to them in their real life is their
existential attitude. It is this existential attitude
that colours their mental culture and sets the
tone to it, often without appeal, and it is very
much a situation of the tail that wags the dog.
As I often say, I have an existential attitude of
being open to myself, honest to myself and true
to myself, even if it offends my sensibility
(which it often does). In front of myself, I try to
not build up any defence against myself, and if
I find any defence of myself against myself, I
proceed immediately to build it down in no time
flat. I flatly do not tolerate my fooling myself.
I came to know Fu and the late Hal Hesse on
these boards, in e-mail and face to face, and I
got fooled by them at first. But after awhile I got
to know them beyond their facade, and noticed
that they had the opposite existential attitude,
namely that they blocked themselves from
themselves to hide themselves from themselves
and protect themselves against themselves. They
appeared to hate their own guts, passionately,
and to not abide themselves. They put up a sham
to themselves, fooling themselves into living as
somebody else and not as them, and that
somebody else was pretty much their opposites.
From the moment they did so (which would have
to be over half a century before I got to know
them), mental culture would never work. They
could still get into the meditative states (Hal was
proficient in the formless realm) and obtain
supernatural powers (Hal could read minds,
though he could read only the mind of some
people and not others, and he could only read
part of their mind and not the rest of it, etc., and
he could also plant thoughts in others so that they
executed them for him in his stead), but all such
attainments were worldly (stuck to self and
what-belongs-to-self) and not supraworldly (free
from interests, especially from self-interests, in
the terminology of F�nelon). Hal and Fu could do
nothing about their self-hatred. Hal hated himself
directly, and Fu invented a subterfuge whereby
he hated the Christian God, and the Christian God
(that he carried in his head) hated him in return,
but the end-result of such a roundabout was still
that Fu hated his own guts, in closed circle, with the
Christian God serving as mere mirror for his
self-hatred.
So there are those two basic existential attitudes,
being open to oneself, honest to oneself and true to
oneself, and living in bad faith to oneself, trying to
fool oneself into living as somebody else that one is
not (and that is for all practical intents and
purposes the contrary of oneself).
The same two attitudes, if I am not wrong, are
expressed as two well-known religious attitudes,
the Stoic attitude and the Gnostic attitude. Stoics
come to peace with themselves and their world,
and Gnostics hate themselves and their world and
refuse to come to peace with themselves and their
world. The religious content associated with such
attitudes scarcely matters, what matters is the
existential attitudes. (Iow, you haven't to believe
in Stoicism to hold a Stoic attitude, and you
haven't to believe in Gnosticism to hold a Gnostic
attitude, indeed you haven't to even know about
the respective religions to hold the corresponding
attitude, just the mere attitude will do, in a
stand-alone manner, though when it expresses itself,
it tends to express itself spontaneously in just such
religious content).
On these boards, Norbu has expressed the basic
Buddhist mindfulness very well: just look and do
not judge. (I say basic, but it encompasses the
whole Buddhist method [Law, Dharma], and if
you can practice it, you don't need anything else,
inside Buddhism or out). It gives room for the
release from the striving for survival to grow, and
when survival is let go of as a priority and not kept
in consideration, all oppression associated with
survival will also go, at least temporarily.
(Oppression translates kilesa/klesha, normally
translated as "defilement/affliction"). It is not purely
negative, but is fulfilment, as in fulfilment of the
human destiny in its best. (You can also murder
millions of people, as Stalin did, and fulfil another
aspect of the human destiny). When you give up
on the regimen of survival, you enter the regimen
(though the word is harsh) of grace, of eternity,
and Mother Nature has seen to it that we humans
have those two portals open to us, namely the
striving for survival and the grace and eternity
felt when survival is given up as a priority. (I do
not pretend to exclude other possibilities, surely
not as fulfilment of the human destiny).
Going back to the two attitudes, the Stoic attitude
forsters the coming to peace with oneself and one's
world, and when carried further, leads to the giving
up of survival and the entrance into grace and
eternity (but if you are in peace with yourself and
in reconciliation with yourself, anything presumably
further, like grace and eternity, can seem frivolous
and gratuitous). The Gnostic attitude hangs on to
hatred of oneself and of one's world and does not
want to budge from it. It has to justify itself and
validate itself by strengthening itself and fortifying
itself, in closed circle. The Stoic attitude leans on
levity and flexibility, and treats itself in levity and
flexibility, therefore also strengthens itself and
fortifies itself, but in the direction of taking itself
in ... levity and flexibility.
So the Stoic attitude has it negative side, via
negativa, letting go, surrendering, etc., (or so it
would seem from its linguistic expression), but it
also has fulfilment when space is given up by the
regimen of survival and comes to be occupied by
grace and eternity instead (the feeling is totally not
negative but extremely positive). Such trade-off
seems crude, but there is a redeeming feature built
into it, in that the regimen of survival is built up on
limits and constraints, on oppression (the self and
what-belongs-to-self are incredibly oppressive,
though this fact/hypothesis is known only when
you are free of it, however partially and episodically),
whereas the regimen of grace and eternity have no
limit and constraint, no oppression. It is freedom and
saturation, oozing out from all over, wholly out of
control. Iow, the regimen of survival is inherently
negative, in the direction of reining in, whereas the
regimen of grace and eternity is inherently
positive, in the direction of imposing no limit, so
much so that the very idea of limit does not come
into mind.
The Gnostic attitude seems like the regimen of
survival, but pushed to outrage, when it becomes a
caricature of itself. Looking at Fu, I see somebody
who hangs on to wrongs perpetrated against him (a
long time ago) and who justifies himself and validates
himself on their basis, real or imagined. However,
even as he hones his vendetta against Christianity
into a perpetual machine, Christianity has also "driven
a stake thorugh his heart" by making him (or at least
a part of him) a faithful follower of it, a meek and
grovelling follower who ascents to all its claims of
monopoly and exclusivity, in something like the
Stockholm Syndrome, and who enforces such claims
on heretics (like me). It also forces him into keeping
its structure of thought intact, even as it allows him
to mess with the content that it taught him, usually
by reversing it tit for tat.
I feel very much for you when you say:
My childhood was not oppressive or punitive at all,
but I can see where your was. Your attitude is Stoic.
Getting out of such a childhood requires a strong
Stoic attitude. When you say: "the good announcing
itself (to the self-listening mind) as what IS to be
done --not as a matter of rule or law but one of
fullness and flowering", it is (to me) in the direction
of mind opening itself to what is outside of mentation,
of artifice. When mind opens itself to what is not
mentation or artifice, grace and eternity ooze out from
all over unasked. "Every sight is a Buddha-sight, every
sound is a Buddha-sound". (Substitute any word that
you want to "Buddha", like God or whatever).
Going back to your mention of responsivity, there is
responsivity within mentation or artifice, and there
is responsivity outside of mentation or artifice. If I am
allowed a crude spatial image, the former is from the
inside out, me imposing myself on the world, and the
latter is from the outside in, grace and eternity coming
in and filling me up unasked, without me doing
anything (and the whole point is that I don't do
anything, even less anything to attract grace and
eternity to me). Less is more. Non-doing is the
condition (the word is harsh) for grace and eternity.
When one gives up on survival as a priority, at least
temporarily, one doesn't do anything, and when one
doesn't do anything, Mother Nature will reward one
with grace and eternity unasked. That is Cosmic
Goodness, Cosmic Justice. It singlehandedly redeems
the world.
Tang Huyen
Wompom
"Tang Huyen" <tanghuyen{delete}@gmail.com[remove]> wrote
> It is true that somebody who has truly attained to such
> quiescence of mind can talk the same way as Nichiren,
> but does not use it to justify and validate the licence to
> do anything.
Well said
> The line of thought (and action) of
> Nichiren would lead directly to the entire Japanese
> Buddhism, but especially Japanese Zen, to justify and
> validate the mass killing of foreign civilians in WW II
> by Japanese soldiers trained by Japanese Zen masters,
Those particular "Zen masters" knew little of Buddhism (QED)
(If you meet a scumbag or scumbini in robes just keep walkin)
Lee Rudolph
>What people do in mental culture is often just a
>window dressing
Way back in my childhood--I'm guessing 1957, maybe 1958--
I got a book from the local branch library on the art of
window dressing, and thereafter for quite some time it was
my ambition eventually to become a window-dresser. Though
I didn't end up doing so, at least (perhaps) that ambition
saved me from a life of mental culture. Meanwhile--alas!--
there is less and less actual window-dressing being done
out there in the world of American commerce (with a few
important exceptions, such as the God of Luck): genuine
department stores with large display windows are all but
gone, and few of the so-called department stores that
remain (let alone the "big box" stores) have any windows
at all. Contrariwise, mental culture appears to flourish,
like hydroponically-nourished, fluorescently-lighted
marijuana plants grown out of the sun and wind (and
sight of cops and competitors).
...
>As I often say, I have an existential attitude of
>being open to myself,
Open windows are (of course) very hard to dress
properly. Still, without looking out of them, one
can know the ways of Heaven, eh? (Which "ways" may,
equally of course, be as void as "Heaven" may be
non-referring.) And if the winds of (possibly
non-referring--or multiply-referring) Heaven
blow in the window, shaking and rearranging
the dressing, well...the window-dresser can
say it's all part of the window-dressing.
Win-win!
...
>The same two attitudes, if I am not wrong, are
>expressed as two well-known religious attitudes,
>the Stoic attitude and the Gnostic attitude. Stoics
>come to peace with themselves and their world,
>and Gnostics hate themselves and their world and
>refuse to come to peace with themselves and their
>world.
The polarity you propound here surprises me,
or rather your choice of names for the poles does,
from what (very) little I know of Stoicism and
Gnosticism. Please expand on this, particularly
on what in (standard-issue) Gnosticism (say, of
the "Gnostic Gospels" variety, or--I'm guessing
wildly here--of some Neo-Platonic precursor)
is paradigmatically self-hating.
Lee Rudolph
Wompom
news:mKKdnbqBKLSFbMzW...@giganews.com...
Finely tuned warrier
Killing machine
Suicide bomber
Buddhist saint
Maybe its a finer line than we would like to think and ethics is the key
"It's a state of mind"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f8mG4KvqMw
Wompom
"possum" <jhk00B0S...@spambox.us> wrote in message
news:6453d366-f280-4cdd...@c29g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
possum
Fwiw my experience of life has been that the vast majority of people would
wish to live fairly and peacefully with others (Communal peace and inner
peace). It seems almost inate and some psy literature I have read about this
bears this out (Based around "fair" and "unfair" sharing games).
Problems come when soemeody is phsically or psychologicaly injured in some
way (shown great unfairness in some way) or resources become scarse
(Survival mechanisms come in to play).
Also our depressing (I speak for my self of course :-) totally gullability
to follow 'herd' instincts...
From this perspective I can start to appreciate the Mahayana concept of
"Buddha nature" as perhapos being some kind of intrinsic seed of peace and
'moral compass' if you like that could flower in all of us?
I think the 'ethics' are mearly good and helpful advice, however in some
areas, such as TANTRA and desire based paths they are essential imo
Wompom
What are Buddhsist teachings other than just advice anyhow...?
Cheers
Stef
:-)
Keynes
wrote:
There are many things that have been called gnosticism.
Mystical christianity as recommended by Jesus is one.
The gospel of Thomas (the twin) found at
Nag Hamadi in egypt is very zen. All sayings
and no narrative.
http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/Trans.htm
There was a strong popular belief in egypt that Jesus
was a man who perfected himself. (Like the Buddha.
Called the Arian heresy.) But the trinitarians won out in
the council of Nicea when christianity became officially
formed dogmatically and state sponsored by Constantine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Jesus became god, just as some of the emperors claimed
and were taken to be gods. (There is a symbolic justification
for deifying Jesus, but the symbolism was from the first
taken quite literally.) The upshot of official christianity
by vote of the bishops was, "my christians are more
numerous than your christians".
The gnosticism of the essenes dead sea scrolls
is similar to Revelations of John in the official bible.
i.e. severe dualism of good and evil to be resolved in the
end times by cataclysm and the destruction of the unholy.
(This is the main thread of fundamentalist christianity,
where the teachings of Jesus not simply ignored, but
flatly contradicted on every point.)
The famous gnostic heresy was that folks
were disembodied souls trapped in the physical
world, which was not created by God, but by the
satanic demiurge. Only death could release one
from a hellish, sinful, physical existence.
DharmaTroll
wrote:
>
> I came to know Fu and the late Hal Hesse on
> these boards, in e-mail and face to face, and I
> got fooled by them at first. But after awhile I got
> to know them beyond their facade, and noticed
> that they had the opposite existential attitude,
> namely that they blocked themselves from
> themselves to hide themselves from themselves
> and protect themselves against themselves. They
> appeared to hate their own guts, passionately,
> and to not abide themselves. They put up a sham
> to themselves, fooling themselves into living as
> somebody else and not as them, and that
> somebody else was pretty much their opposites.
Sounds like Tang, ya definitely scored a 49 on that Asperger's test
and can't make friends, except for the dead guys in the books in the
library, as real people are always fooling you because they block
themselves from themselves and hide themselves from themselves and
protect themselves from themselves. Or could it be just the Tang-
banger protecting himself from ever making friends with another human
being? Ya think?
> Hal and Fu could do nothing about their self-hatred.
> Hal hated himself directly, and Fu invented a
> subterfuge whereby he hated the Christian God,
> but the end-result of such a roundabout was still
> that Fu hated his own guts, in closed circle
Reading this, one can make a better guess at who created a subterfuge
and hates his own guts, in closed circle. Heh. Definitely a 49 out of
50.
> Looking at Fu, I see somebody who
> hangs on to wrongs perpetrated against him
That's 'cuz Fu holds a mirror up in front of your face. D'oh! Your own
talk here is precisely that of which you speak: somebody who hangs on
to wrongs perpetrated against him, but in your case, Tang, I think the
wrongs may even have been imagined in the first place, so that you're
holding on to alleged wrongs that were simply mistaken interpretations
and defense mechanisms on your part in the first place. What irony!
My, you've turned yourself into a multi-layed onion, haven't you,
Tang?
> Stoics come to peace with themselves and their
> world, and Gnostics hate themselves and their
> world and refuse to come to peace with
> themselves and their world.
And let me guess: Tang and his minions are Stoics, whilst anybody who
disagrees with Tang or tries to make friends with Tang and hence
scares him off, is a Gnostic. I get it now! Once labeled as a Gnostic,
Tang then will explain how one has blocked themselves from themselves
to hide themselves from themselves and protect themselves against
themselves, in closed loop, of course.
> So the Stoic attitude has it negative side, via
> negativa, letting go, surrendering, etc., (or so it
> would seem from its linguistic expression), but it
> also has fulfillment when space is given up by the
> regimen of survival and comes to be occupied by
> grace and eternity instead (the feeling is totally not
> negative but extremely positive).... If I am
> allowed a crude spatial image, the former is from the
> inside out, me imposing myself on the world, and the
> latter is from the outside in, grace and eternity coming
> in and filling me up unasked, without me doing
> anything (and the whole point is that I don't do
> anything, even less anything to attract grace and
> eternity to me). Less is more. Non-doing is the
> condition (the word is harsh) for grace and eternity.
> When one doesn't do anything, Mother Nature
> will reward one with grace and eternity unasked.
> That is Cosmic Goodness, Cosmic Justice.
Actually, that strategy does work with real girls, though the "Mother
Nature" and "Cosmic Goodness" and "Cosmic Justice" stuff sound like
woo-woo rationalizations to me. (Heaven and Karma/Reincarnation are
ways to psychologically feel that there is a 'moral conservation
principle' so that bad people will get what they deserve in the end,
and goody-two-shoes folks will not simply be ripped off by that cosmic
equalizer called death.)
With real girls, yes, if one stops talking and bragging about oneself
and ignores them, then they'll give one attention; and then if one
just shuts up and listens, practicing non-doing, then, if I am allowed
a crude spacial image, they'll take their panties off and give one a
blow job and reward one with tits and ass unasked. That is neither
Cosmic Goodness, nor Cosmic Justice, but it does make for a hell of a
Saturday night, Tang! Whew Who!
--My Divine Grace Yabba Dabba Dukkha Dharmakaya Trollpa
Déjà Flu
<ZAP!>
> Mother Nature will reward one
> with grace and eternity unasked. That is Cosmic
> Goodness, Cosmic Justice. It singlehandedly redeems
> the world.
Nah - only Genuine Cosmic Beam Therapy can do that.
http://www.cosmicbeamtherapy.com/
Wompom
news:JOqdnSCwBPSduc_W...@posted.toastnet...
>
> Nah - only Genuine Cosmic Beam Therapy can do that.
> http://www.cosmicbeamtherapy.com/
WARNING: I got a virus!
(Click an dlive dangerously)
(AS my AV is up to date nicely stuffed into the 'Virus vault' :-)
Tang Huyen
Lee Rudolph wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>
> >The same two attitudes, if I am not wrong, are
> >expressed as two well-known religious attitudes,
> >the Stoic attitude and the Gnostic attitude. Stoics
> >come to peace with themselves and their world,
> >and Gnostics hate themselves and their world and
> >refuse to come to peace with themselves and their
> >world.
>
> The polarity you propound here surprises me,
> or rather your choice of names for the poles does,
> from what (very) little I know of Stoicism and
> Gnosticism. Please expand on this, particularly
> on what in (standard-issue) Gnosticism (say, of
> the "Gnostic Gospels" variety, or--I'm guessing
> wildly here--of some Neo-Platonic precursor)
> is paradigmatically self-hating.
Gnosticism starts from dualism in the strictest sense,
in that the created world (the world we live in) was
created by an evil God, and it is a prison to be escaped
from. It is lack or privation (kenoma), as opposed to
the heaven that is its opposite (the heaven that the
saved escape to), called fullness (pleroma). Now
alt.religion.gnostic is a spam haven, but in previous
years, when it was still populated by present-day
Gnostics, the participants cursed at the God of this
world, as they took him to have botched his job of
creation.
I have always liked Stoicism in general and the Stoic
worldview in particular. The latter is the direct
contrary to the Gnostic one, in that Gnosticism
condemns the world as the botched work of a false
god whilst Stoicism takes the world to be perfect, fair,
harmonious, coherent, right, just, and a matchless
masterpiece from God. Gnosticism has its own true
God, too,who rules in a *different* realm, the realm
of fullness (pleroma) whilst our realm is the realm
of lack or privation (kenoma), and in salvation we
leave our realm behind and ascend to fullness.
Stoicism is more parsimonious, because it starts with
monism, iow, to it there is only one realm, ours, and
it is already perfect, if we know how to look, so we
don't need to go anywhere else. If you open yourself
to God, you simultaneously open yourself to God's
grace, in that you see the world the way God sees the
world when he creates it, namely coherent,
harmonious, just, right, beautiful, perfect, and
whatever. You partake of God's intuition of the world.
Of course God doesn't need to be anything other than
that feeling. But it is a feeling that redeems
instantaneously oneself and the world, in toto. It is a
feeling that is compleat in itself and refers to nothing
outside of itself. It is self-evident and self-validating
and doesn't need anything else to validate it.
Stoicism develops on its own, almost as a single piece
(as opposed to Gnosticism, which is heterogeneous and
borrows from all over), and has been transmitted as
such, even if many of its adherents have no access to
its full canon but only to scattered bits and pieces
(often from hostile sources, like Christian theologians,
but even from such ostensibly hostile sources, the
followers of Stoicism can still cull the scattered bits and
pieces and piece them together to reintuit the original
whole and practice accordingly). On top of that, many
of its followers are formally adherents of some other
religion (like Christianity) that condemns Stoicism, and
they have to disguise their Stoicism as Christianity
(most Christian mystics, especially the learned ones,
like Eckhart, John of the Cross, F�nelon, Nicholas of
Cusa in the West, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the
Confessor in the East, are full-blown Stoics, who have
to dress up their Stoicism to pass as Christianity, and
some of them fail and get condemned, like Eckhart and
F�nelon, though their beliefs are scarcely different
from those who are sainted, like John of the Cross,
Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor).
The Wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
<<Panentheism (from Greek (p�n) "all"; (en) "in"; and
(the�s) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which
posits that God exists and interpenetrates every part of
nature, and timelessly extends beyond as well.
Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which
holds that God is synonymous with the material universe.
Briefly put, in pantheism, "God is the whole"; in
panentheism, "The whole is in God." This means that
the Universe in the first formulation is practically the
Whole itself, but in the second the universe and God are
not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is not
necessarily viewed as the creator or demiurge, but the
eternal animating force behind the universe, with the
universe as nothing more than the manifest part of God.
The cosmos exists within God, who in turn "pervades"
or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that God
and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims
that God is greater than the universe and that the
universe is contained within God.>>
The monism of Stoicism is often called panentheism,
in that God is so to speak under the world or inside the
world, and this imagery becomes famous in Spinoza,
who professes a single substance that underlies the
differentiated world, or a single substance that
differentiates itself into the world. Ernst Cassirer calls
the Spinozan substance the thing of all things. The
things and events that we experience in our daily life
are the particulars or details of this substance, and
salvation comes from reintuiting the whole (the
substance) of which such particulars or details are
particulars or details. The Stoic couple of diastole and
systole express this dual movement, from the whole
differentiating itself into the parts and the parts coming
back together to form the whole again. Such syntagma
of ideas also forms the foundation, in the crassest,
crudest foundational sense, of Buddhism, in its ontology,
epistemology and soteriology. It is also the contrary to
Gnostic dualism, in that it requires only one world,
which is the ground of both loss and redemption, and
loss and redemption are merely ways of looking at the
world, not the world itself (or two worlds, or one real
world and one false world, or one world of lack and
one world of fullness).
Hal told me that he often dreamt of being taken away
by aliens in space ships at his death. Fu said recently:
<<Moi? As a young child I thought I was born on the
wrong planet. Now that I'm an older one, I'm convinced
of it.>>
Both expressed a Gnostic idea, namely that the present
world is a wrong world to them, and they long to escape
to another world, whatever it is. (As I said, no Gnostic
belief in content is needed for a Gnostic attitude).
Hal was against everything. Fu attacks almost everything,
except matter, but he forgets that he attacks everything
from mind and praises matter from mind. His anger,
bitterness and agitation are ostensibly directed at religions,
but it seems that he was victim of some grievous and
egregious offences from the Catholic Church in childhood
and wants to live the duration of his life as vendetta
against the Church, a vendetta that he extends to all
religions, though the Church has seen to it that he (or at
least one part of him) remains a faithful Christian of good
faith who adheres to all of its claims of monopoly and
exclusivity and who forcibly enforces them (sorry for the
pleonasm) on heretics, therefore his self-hatred was like
implanted in him by the Church, in that the Church saw to
it that *if* he revolted against it, he would have to hate
himself, because of such internal division. And of course
he plays right into the Church's hand.
<<Actually, it's classic Evangelical dogma: "Without God,
without accepting Jesus, makes all spirituality into
materialism, a willful madness of Godless Atheists.">>
DharmaTroll.
There is a rigourous logic of deduction here (as in rigor
mortis).
If A, then B.
If [Fu was subject to some grievous and egregious
offences from the Catholic Church in childhood], then
[he would waste the duration of his life in vendetta
against it, in the form of virulent anti-Christian
physicalism, going to the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins,
Stenger and Blackmore for redemption].
Even then, his anti-Christian physicalism is still imbued
with magical thinking, as the Church taught him, in the
form of Gene Roddenberry's ash falling from the sky and
stupefying the Christians who accept Christ as their
saviour. Of course such magical thinking, here based on
relicts, be they ash falling from the sky in very scattered
manner, totally and completely defeats his anti-Christian
physicalism. The Church saw to it, too. The previous
deduction can be completed thus:
If Fu establishes the Church of Fu, he already has the
right numerology, in the form of the Three Magi,
Dawkins, Stenger and Blackmore, and already has a
Saint with Relicts, Gene Roddenberry's ash falling from
the sky. The Planets are lined up right.
There are on these boards former Christians, even former
Catholics who are come to peace with themselves and
their world, regardless how perturbed the previous part
of their lives has been. Kitty and Brian Mitchell are
examples. They plainly exhibit a Stoic attitude, even if
they know little of Stoicism officially.
Tang Huyen
Déjà Flu
Yeah. But it's not the virus you think it is, steph.
brian mitchell
>So the Stoic attitude has it negative side, via
>negativa, letting go, surrendering, etc., (or so it
>would seem from its linguistic expression), but it
>also has fulfilment when space is given up by the
>regimen of survival and comes to be occupied by
>grace and eternity instead (the feeling is totally not
>negative but extremely positive). Such trade-off
>seems crude, but there is a redeeming feature built
>into it, in that the regimen of survival is built up on
>limits and constraints, on oppression (the self and
>what-belongs-to-self are incredibly oppressive,
>though this fact/hypothesis is known only when
>you are free of it, however partially and episodically),
>whereas the regimen of grace and eternity have no
>limit and constraint, no oppression. It is freedom and
>saturation, oozing out from all over, wholly out of
>control. Iow, the regimen of survival is inherently
>negative, in the direction of reining in, whereas the
>regimen of grace and eternity is inherently
>positive, in the direction of imposing no limit, so
>much so that the very idea of limit does not come
>into mind.
There was a time when that machinery of survival in me was seriously
and traumatically disabled and through the shock of that and an
attendant inability to resist anything, there was an experience of
what might qualify as grace so I think I've seen what you describe
here.
This does also address my negative/positive question, on which score I
also liked this quote by Norbu in his earlier reply to you:
<<It is also a mistake to hold a nihilistic view that there is nothing
but the void, no cause and effect of karma and no meditator nor
meditation, failing to experience the openess which is beyond
conceptions.
The Lion's Roar by Jigme Lingpa>>
>Going back to your mention of responsivity, there is
>responsivity within mentation or artifice, and there
>is responsivity outside of mentation or artifice. If I am
>allowed a crude spatial image, the former is from the
>inside out, me imposing myself on the world, and the
>latter is from the outside in, grace and eternity coming
>in and filling me up unasked...
I believe I'm inclined to see mentation and artifice in a somewhat
less severe way than you. I think they *can* be vehicles for
communion. These newsgroups, for instance, which are highly artificial
in many ways, somehow also manage to convey elements of love, grace,
and so on. Rather as you say at the top of your post, it must depend
on the underlying disposition.
I hope that wasn't too sickly for anyone.
AdvocatusDiablo
"brian mitchell" <brai...@fishing.net> wrote in message
news:g0p4l5p0cb54m51k3...@4ax.com...
brian...that's a nice interpretation of your bong dreams...!
possum
if it was, i expect receptacles will be close to hand.
possum
wrote:
> Cusa in the West, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the
> Confessor in the East, are full-blown Stoics, who have
> to dress up their Stoicism to pass as Christianity, and
> some of them fail and get condemned, like Eckhart and
> from those who are sainted, like John of the Cross,
> Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor).
>
> The Wiki says:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
>
> (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which
i have to ask...you've posted about 'grace' often before, but now you
have added 'eternity'... i don't remember you doing so before...and
you never use tautologies without identifying them. what's new?
Nobody in Particular
Just curious: How do you find stuff like that?
Just what were you googling?
Nobody in Particular
AdvocatusDiablo wrote:
Saw a cartoon once - God was smoking a bong and dreaming up the world.
Titled "The Big Bong Theory"
Hollywood Lee
> I believe I'm inclined to see mentation and artifice in a somewhat
> less severe way than you. I think they *can* be vehicles for
> communion. These newsgroups, for instance, which are highly artificial
> in many ways, somehow also manage to convey elements of love, grace,
> and so on. Rather as you say at the top of your post, it must depend
> on the underlying disposition.
On our hike last weekend in the foohills, my grandson and I saw deer, a
fox and a bunny. The runners, dashing to the top, saw their time and
heart-rate on their sports watches.
AdvocatusDiablo
"Nobody in Particular" <nob...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:hiu5lj$fjr$4...@news.eternal-september.org...
NiP...that's as close to the truth that you will ever be...!
Nobody in Particular
How d'you know that?
AdvocatusDiablo
my bong told me...NiP...!
liaM
nice
like jade and spice
liaM
One of the gifts that sight gives, is the ability to distinguish
what is living to what is inorganic and now dead..
Thus there is some good to some fraction of what everyone here does
and says.. some life inherent to each of all of the
often sweet, sticky, salty, soured, angry, repetitive things
said here. All of us have some life left, right?
The only problem I see, is with the carrot tops and
cabbage heads that behave as if they were immortal.
That's where the love is : the woe I feel for them...
Wompom
news:hiu5p9$rn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Woo hoo, I'm off for a run!
Wompom
I spot a Penguin!
Lee Rudolph
>I believe I'm inclined to see mentation and artifice in a somewhat
>less severe way than you. I think they *can* be vehicles for
>communion.
I'm inclined to believe that, essentially by (what I take to be)
definition, "communion" and "grace" "*can* be" envehicled [urrggh,
what a word...] by anything. Rather like lightning. If you make
a living betting on what terrestrial object will next serve as
one end of an arc of lightning, then surely you'll get richer
sooner putting your money on lightning rods, skyscrapers, and tall
isolated trees; but even supine golfers and gorse bushes get the
full treatment occasionally.
Lee Rudolph
Tang Huyen
Lee Rudolph wrote:
> brian mitchell:
If you don't run fast enough, you're food.
True, but only in the regimen of survival.
When survival is abandoned, at least for a
moment, and no resistance is put up (and
a concept is already resistance), anything
is eligible for grace. It is frivolous and
gratuitous, but that is the grace of it.
"L'amour est un oiseau rebelle".
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
possum wrote:
> i have to ask...you've posted about 'grace' often
> before, but now you have added 'eternity'... i
> don't remember you doing so before...and you
> never use tautologies without identifying them.
> what's new?
Grace and eternity are incredibly vague words,
to indicate some exalted states of mind that are
expansive, limitless, saturated, gushing out from
all over, when you no longer take all your cares
and concerns, all your worries, right up to
survival inclusively, seriously, let them go and
live in the moment without putting up resistance.
Survival requires limits, norms and standards,
structures and frameworks, and constant
calculation (obviously, social life requires all of
them, but even individual survival does, just
imagine yourself alone in the forest, with tigers
and serpents all around you), but when all such
considerations are surrendered, at least for a
moment (though such privileged moment also
requires much training, not at doing but at
non-doing), and you merely open up, without
further ado. God will shine his light on you. All
limits and boundaries are lifted, at a minimum,
all oppression is gone, and everything follows
from there. It is to be experienced a posteriori
and not to be analysed a priori, because it makes
no sense, but that is the grace of it, in that it
makes no sense. It comes unasked.
Tang Huyen
halfawake
very good.
reminds me of the two ways to take a road trip cross country - "when are
we gonna get there?" and "oh, look at that!"
BTW, I jog at the zoo around here and I have seen deer a number of times
in the outlying area. But one time I ran up to the bird area at dusk
and was watching the birds when I turned to my left and saw two deer
standing next to me, also watching the birds. They decided to visit the
zoo and "see the animals" too.
Best,
Robert
= = = = = = = = = = =
halfawake
he been there, but didn't like the cooking.
Tang Huyen
halfawake
> On 16 Jan, 01:13, brian mitchell <brainm...@fishing.net> wrote:
>
>>norbu wrote:
>>
>>>On Jan 14, 5:39 pm, brian mitchell <brainm...@fishing.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Wompom" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Without morality there is no buddhism
>>
>>>>I'm going to first disagree with this statement, then later agree with
>>>>it.
>>
>>>>The sutta extracts Norbu posted show just how weak and conventional
>>>>traditional Buddhist thought on this subject is. Don't steal, don't
>>>>lie, don't put it where it don't belong --the same primitive social
>>>>mores to be found in any culture. The proposition is that by adopting
>>>>certain approved behaviours you will attain to some nobility of mind,
>>>>which is very doubtful. Behaviours, or rules, or ideals imposed from
>>>>without are in direct opposition to the essence of Buddhism (as I see
>>>>it), which is to turn the light of the mind inward to *discover* what
>>>>is there *before* all such externalities arise.
>>
>>>hi brian,
>>
>>>i agree with your view here- that was somewhat the case in the first
>>>sutta i quoted Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta
>>>An Analysis of the Path). But it did not suggest that it was to attain
>>>some
>>>"nobility of mind". The basic principle of ethics in the first quote
>>>was to not
>>>create harm to others, thus not creating backlashes and further drama,
>>>further chaos and enmity, strife, etc so that one could practice the
>>>other branches
>>>of the path, i.e., view and samadhi.
>>
>>> The second sutta quote covered your criticism here - that ethics
>>>practiced
>>>as a a mere formulaic "moral dogma" imposed from "above" to get
>>>personal gain
>>>mere not genuine ethics at all. {Majjhima Nikaya 117 Maha-cattarisaka
>>>Sutta
>>>The Great Forty) It distinguishes between "morality" practiced in in a
>>>personal
>>>drama story ("with fermations") and ethics that are without clinging
>>>to drama,
>>>personal gain, etc. "Drop the drama and stories."
>>
>>> The third quote was from the northern tradition and presented ethics
>>>as being
>>>rid of personal drama/stories - nothing to be imposed or dropped, just
>>>what follows
>>>naturally:
>>
>>>"No fixation is generosity.
>>>No guarding of anything is discipline.
>>>No dwelling is that which is designated patience.
>>>No effort is what is called exertion.
>>>No wishing is what is designated dhyana.
>>>No conception is what is known as praj�a. "
>>
>>>The three quotes move from a position of not causing harm to gain
>>>peace in the world, to not harming doing good without any sense
>>>of personal gain or loss, to just being natural(so to speak),
>>>intuitive, no story or dogma.
>>
>>Norbu, thanks for your reply. Of course I grossly mischaracterised the
>>suttas but there is a *something* which I'm trying to get at which
>>seems at least to either go in a different direction to them or come
>>from a different place.
>>
>>Even your third quote, your "via negativa," just being natural, has a
>>somewhat different cast to what I was attempting to give expression
>>to. That difference (which might actually disqualify me from any claim
>>to be following a Buddhist path) is between the negative, empty
>>approach and something more positive and attractive (in the sense of
>>being drawn towards). As your quotes show, even those expressions of
>>ethics labelled Right something-or-other turn out to be matters of
>>abstention, what is *not* to be done. IOW, one does right by not doing
>>wrong. What I'm seeing is more the good announcing itself (to the
>>self-listening mind) as what IS to be done --not as a matter of rule
>>or law but one of fullness and flowering (more heresy!)
>>
>>At a certain period of my childhood I told a lot of lies. It was my
>>way of negotiating a very oppressive and punitive imposition from the
>>adult world. But I didn't want to lie. In fact, I always wanted NOT to
>>lie. Truth and trust was what I naturally wanted and instinctively
>>leaned towards. In this way I would link morality with the unfolding
>>of an innate positive responsivity. Lots of words there. Is this only
>>a difference of emphasis or something more?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>As an alternative I propose that the Good (to go back to a less
>>>>religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
>>>>as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
>>>>encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
>>>>which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
>>>>it has no rules, no codes of behaviour, that can be followed.
>>
>>>Just so the second and third quote were about that - we move away from
>>>morals "with fermations" (stories/dramas/gain-loss) to ethics without
>>>such "fermations", then into letting all dogmas and stories go...
>>
>>>>It can
>>>>only be discerned in the present moment amidst whatever conditions
>>>>obtain there; it's a living dimension of what-is, which is always
>>>>changing, and which needs creativity to realise. Without *this* kind
>>>>of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism.
>>>>Anything else is just cultural obedience --some of which is also
>>>>necessary, no doubt, but has very little to do with the discovery of
>>>>mind.
>>
>>>Just so.
>>
>>>"Without *this* kind
>>>of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism."
>>
>>>But for some folks to get there they might have to make some peace in
>>>their lives
>>>(first quote) so that there isn't constant warring with others...
>>
>>Perhaps so, but I have to say I'm doubtful, given the way we are, that
>>anyone can relinquish an habitual strategy without some inward turning
>>to something perceived as better. There would have to be a sense of
>>the desirability of peace which --I would say-- could only come from
>>some inner knowing of peace, however shadowy. I don't see this in
>>itself as a self-serving fermentation, though that could of course
>>happen.
>>
>>
>>>i don't see where Wompom said anything different in saying
>>
>>>"Without morality there is no buddhism ".
>>
>>Perhaps not, but as a statement it cried out for unpacking (and made a
>>useful springboard).
>
>
> Brian, i just wanted to let you know i appreciate your posts...excuse
> me as i'm a little brain dead, but are you getting at something that
> might be described as an innate moral compass and/or some experience
> of peace as requisite for awakening...
>
> possum
cool!
Robert
Tang Huyen
halfawake wrote:
> reminds me of the two ways to take a road trip cross country - "when are
> we gonna get there?" and "oh, look at that!"
>
> BTW, I jog at the zoo around here and I have seen deer a number of times
> in the outlying area. But one time I ran up to the bird area at dusk
> and was watching the birds when I turned to my left and saw two deer
> standing next to me, also watching the birds. They decided to visit the
> zoo and "see the animals" too.
I was going to reply to your post and
clicked "Send" by error. I have often
noticed that animals in the USA, both
domesticaed and wild, are more brave
than their counterparts in Vietnam.
Mice, birds, deers can come pretty
close to peole or to predators amongst
animals. I once saw pigeons in
Chinatown walk in a carefree manner
when cats were around, and of course
the latter grabbed them quick, very
easily because they made no attempt to
flee.
Tang Huyen
halfawake
now that is just sad. overly ambitious pigeons.
zenworm
*are*
^~
zenworm
wrote:
without expectation... Always
without asking... Already
without coming... IS
^~ :D _/|\_
absolute permanent perfection overflowing without effort
zenworm
"pigeon" = sitting duck?...
ZAZEN HO!
ROFLMAO!
^~
brian mitchell
>*are*
Hm... I could go as far as 'are sometimes.' There's a lot of
exclusionary self-practice goes on here, as everywhere.
Déjà Flu
"cosmic" is in the wooword wictionary, Billy.
Easy gurgle. ')
norbu_tragri
> norbuwrote:
> >On Jan 14, 5:39 pm, brian mitchell <brainm...@fishing.net> wrote:
> >> "Wompom" wrote:
> >> >Without morality there is no buddhism
>
> >> I'm going to first disagree with this statement, then later agree with
> >> it.
>
>
> >The three quotes move from a position of not causing harm to gain
> >peace in the world, to not harming doing good without any sense
> >of personal gain or loss, to just being natural(so to speak),
> >intuitive, no story or dogma.
>
> Norbu, thanks for your reply. Of course I grossly mischaracterised the
> suttas but there is a *something* which I'm trying to get at which
> seems at least to either go in a different direction to them or come
> from a different place.
>
> Even your third quote, your "via negativa," just being natural, has a
> somewhat different cast to what I was attempting to give expression
> to. That difference (which might actually disqualify me from any claim
> to be following a Buddhist path) is between the negative, empty
> approach and something more positive and attractive (in the sense of
> being drawn towards). As your quotes show, even those expressions of
> ethics labelled Right something-or-other turn out to be matters of
> abstention, what is *not* to be done. IOW, one does right by not doing
> wrong. What I'm seeing is more the good announcing itself (to the
> self-listening mind) as what IS to be done --not as a matter of rule
> or law but one of fullness and flowering (more heresy!)
hi Brian,
i wrote a nice reply last night, then there was a wind storm, and
the power went out!
So i'm cutting the verbose stuff in in this re-reply. Prolly to good
effect.
The negative formula are in part to stop clinging to further drama
and getting stuck
in that, and on the other paw to toss ethics back to heart, intuitive,
not some dogma.
Each of us has all the ethics of the world in our hearts as a birth
right, since there is
no really limiting ignorance/sin that cannot be got beyond - this is
expressed in the
northern tradition as tathagatagarbha/sunyata. The awake is always
there, we just have to
let go of the BS stories.
In positive terms the southern and northern traditions agree on the
four "Brahmaviharas"
as the basis of action. "Brahma" here does not refer to some god, it's
a word that means
"vast", unlimited - "vihara" came to mean monestery, but the original
meaning was
the wandering/homelessness of the renunciates. So the original
cultural sense of the term
was something like "open honest experience of whatever happens". And
these four
brahmaviharas are quite positive while not being dogmatic.
Sort of a description of emotions when the drama games fall away:
In no particular order:
"Friendliness" - a sense of honest open heart for everyone.
"Rejoicing" for anyone who finds some happiness or peace.
"Compassion" for anyone who stuck in conflict and drama.
"Equanimity" - drama or freedom, loss or gain, doesn't matter,
you stay with everyone, yourself, the good or the bad, never giving
up,
not buying into the dramas and stories, seeing the open possibilities.
All the positive ethics evolve, so to speak, from these basic
insights.
In the Northern tradition these become the four gates of every Mandala
-
you cannot enter a sense of seeing all as sacred unless you enter from
these four gates.
Entering a mandala from these positive gates a Bodhisattva then
trains in developing
specific insights and abilities and vows depending on their unique
practices, traditions, etc.
>
> At a certain period of my childhood I told a lot of lies. It was my
> way of negotiating a very oppressive and punitive imposition from the
> adult world. But I didn't want to lie.
my experience in childhood was that the adults all told lies and
couldn't recognize
honesty. we weren't presented with many options.
> In fact, I always wanted NOT to
> lie. Truth and trust was what I naturally wanted and instinctively
> leaned towards. In this way I would link morality with the unfolding
> of an innate positive responsivity. Lots of words there. Is this only
> a difference of emphasis or something more?
i think i recognize it... :)
in buddhist terms it's samatha/vipasana - you're willing to see
honestly whatever is happening,
regardless of what happens, honesty comes first, then you work with
whatever happens,
with a positive approach...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> As an alternative I propose that the Good (to go back to a less
> >> religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
> >> as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
> >> encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
> >> which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
> >> it has no rules, no codes of behaviour, that can be followed.
Yep. Theravada termed that mind lighting up, Mahayana tathagatagarbha,
and so on.
<bows>
great start for further unveiling all this tradition!
let's find the heart here and make it real!
- :)
Wompom
"norbu_tragri" <norbu....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6269fa58-9d8d-4027...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
hi Brian,
In no particular order:
<bows>
- :)
=====================
Goes into my "Buddhist Keepers" folder :-)
Until of course it gets accidentaly deleted!
<bows also>
DT
Gotta love the "information for those who are destined to seek help".
DT
norbu_tragri
> "norbu_tragri" <norbu.tra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
heee!
Glad you liked the post, something useful in it ... :) i wuz
flustered a bit after the the
power-outage the other night, trying to get a reply to Brian M.
quickly when i wuz wiff
no time due to work schedule. Replied to your post instead of his
(google groopsie
posting style - search, search, there's part of quote - reply) haste
makes fun.
If you liked the brief synopsis of friendliness/rejoicing/compassion/
equanimity
you might like some posts i made a few years ago comparing the
teachings on that from the various traditions on these teachings.
If you go to googlegroups alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan and enter
"norbu brahma viharas"
in the search box you'll find the texts quoted and compared from July
03.
otherwise this url might work...???
:)
- n.
i suck at short url posts...
Wompom
heee!
:)
- n.
============================
Link works fine....
Thanks again :D
very germane stuff...
Buku
> "Wompom" wrote:
> >Without morality there is no buddhism
>
> I'm going to first disagree with this statement, then later agree with
> it.
>
> traditional Buddhist thought on this subject is. Don't steal, don't
> lie, don't put it where it don't belong --the same primitive social
> mores to be found in any culture. The proposition is that by adopting
> certain approved behaviours you will attain to some nobility of mind,
> which is very doubtful. Behaviours, or rules, or ideals imposed from
> without are in direct opposition to the essence of Buddhism (as I see
> it), which is to turn the light of the mind inward to *discover* what
> is there *before* all such externalities arise.
>
> religious term) is an innate attribute of mind and thus appears to us
> as a distinct dimension of life and existence. In every situation we
> encounter, every relationship, there is this dimension of goodness
> which we can be aware of and to which we can direct our responses. But
> only be discerned in the present moment amidst whatever conditions
> obtain there; it's a living dimension of what-is, which is always
> changing, and which needs creativity to realise. Without *this* kind
> of true moral sensitivity I think one could say there is no Buddhism.
> Anything else is just cultural obedience --some of which is also
> necessary, no doubt, but has very little to do with the discovery of
> mind.
Wompon, Nichiren Daishonin, the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra
takes your teaching a step farther: Here are two examples:
"On the other hand, even if one does not commit a single evil deed
throughout one’s entire lifetime, and observes the five precepts, the
eight precepts, the ten precepts, the ten good precepts, the two
hundred and fifty precepts, the five hundred precepts, or countless
numbers of precepts; even if one learns all the other sutras by heart,
makes offerings to all the other Buddhas and bodhisattvas, and
accumulates immeasurable merit, if one but fails to put one’s faith in
the Lotus Sutra; or if one has faith in it, but considers that it
ranks on the same level as the other sutras and the teachings of the
other Buddhas; or if one recognizes its superiority, but constantly
engages in other religious disciplines, practicing the Lotus Sutra
only from time to time; or if one associates on friendly terms with
priests of the Nembutsu, who do not believe in the Lotus Sutra but
slander it; or if one thinks that those who insist the Lotus Sutra
does not suit the people’s capacity in the latter age are guilty of no
fault, then all the merit of the countless good acts one has performed
throughout one’s life will suddenly vanish."
"The attainment of Buddhahood or non-attainment of Buddhahood by the
evil people of the Latter Age does not depend upon the lightness or
gravity of their sins but is just according to their belief or
unbelief in this Sutra" (Hakii Saburo dono gohenji, STN, v. 1, 749). :
"This Object of Worship is also contained in the two characters,
'faithful (believing) mind ' (shinjin); 'by faith you are able to
enter' refers to this. The disciples and lay donors of Nichiren by
believing undividedly in 'forthrightly abandoning expedience' and 'not
receiving even one verse of other sutras' shall enter into the Jeweled
Stupa of this Object of Worship" (Nichinyo gozen gohenji, STN, v. 2,
1376).
Buku
you left one thing out. You wrote:
The line of thought (and action) of
Nichiren would lead directly to the entire Japanese
Buddhism, but especially Japanese Zen, to justify and
validate the mass killing of foreign civilians in WW II
by Japanese soldiers trained by Japanese Zen masters,
and not just to justify and validate it, but to encourage
it and advocate it all the way.
That is because the people heard the talk ["deliberately take such a
state of absence of
distinction as carte blanche for doing anything"] but never walked the
walk of the Great Man:
What was the nature of Nichiren Daishonin's compassion and how was it
developed? There are two aspects and both must be present:
1). It was developed through suffering, intense suffering that few of
us can even imagine. This is the meaning of, The Sufferings of Birth
and Death are Nirvana. Nirvana is compassion although compassion fails
to adequately represent the state of life of Shakyamuni Buddha and
Nichiren Daishonin.
2). It was developed by his faith and practice of the Supreme Law.
Regarding the first aspect:
From Kuan Yin, The Compassionate Rebel
Article of the Month - November 2005, we read:
"The original Sanskrit word is 'karuna,' which holds within itself
traces of the fragment 'ru,' meaning to weep. While the Oxford
dictionary describes compassion as pity bordering on the merciful,
karuna is actually our ability to relate to another in so intense a
measure that the plight of the other affects us as much as if it had
been our own."
Putting aside, a mother's love for her baby [because we are talking
about individuals who have this very same feeling towards all people],
we can only put into practice our ability to relate to the plight of
another and have it affect us "as much as if it had been our own", if
we have experienced a similar plight. Few people exist of such great
sensitivities, sensibilities, and imagination, to share another's
sufferings as if it were there own without having personally
experienced such hardships, possibly even Nichiren Daishonin himself.
Because Nichiren's sufferings were of such an indescribable magnitude,
his privations, his cold, his physical pain, his hunger pains, his
emotional pains, his loneliness, his shame, even his regrets [that the
whole nation would not embrace the Sublime Dharma], and his
uncertainties for example, he could empathize with others and their
sufferings. Nichiren Daishonin never would have condoned, let alone
encouraged, the war and atrocities perpetrated by the evil men of the
evil Japanese nation. He repeatedly remonstrated with the violent
shogunate and misguided priests and laymen of his time. He would have
been even more appalled with those to come who had an even more
cursory understanding of the teachings on the absence of distinction,
the Zen monks and militarists of World War II, who had no practical
experience with a bodily reading of the teachings.
Tang Huyen
Buku wrote:
Two characteristics jump right out here: one being
monopoly and exclusivity of salvation (this way and no
other way: 'not receiving even one verse of other sutras'),
the other being the irrelevance of morality versus the
sole salience of faith (faith, and in the right stuff, serving
as the one and only criterion for salvation).
Emma believed that her husband Darwin would go to
hell (forever) and that she would go to heaven (forever)
because she believed and he did not, regardless of their
respective morality or any other consideration.
The content changes, but the structure (pattern, meme)
is exactly the same. Great minds think alike.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
Buku wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Because Nichiren's sufferings were of such an
> indescribable magnitude, his privations, his cold, his
> physical pain, his hunger pains, his emotional pains,
> his loneliness, his shame, even his regrets [that the
> whole nation would not embrace the Sublime
> Dharma], and his uncertainties for example, he
> could empathize with others and their sufferings.
<<It was developed through suffering, intense
suffering that few of us can even imagine. This is the
meaning of, The Sufferings of Birth and Death are
Nirvana.>>
If The Sufferings of Birth and Death are Nirvana,
then his suffering, however manifold and intense,
is Nirvana, and there is no sense in reciting the
litany of it. He is enjoying it all the way through.
You should say: "Rejoice!" instead.
As to what I wrote:
<<The line of thought (and action) of Nichiren would
lead directly to the entire Japanese Buddhism, but
especially Japanese Zen, to justify and validate the
mass killing of foreign civilians in WW II by Japanese
soldiers trained by Japanese Zen masters, and not just
to justify and validate it, but to encourage it and
advocate it all the way.>>
You quote:
<<"The attainment of Buddhahood or non-attainment of
Buddhahood by the evil people of the Latter Age does
not depend upon the lightness or gravity of their sins
but is just according to their belief or unbelief in this
Sutra" (Hakii Saburo dono gohenji, STN, v. 1, 749). :
"This Object of Worship is also contained in the two
characters, 'faithful (believing) mind ' (shinjin); 'by faith
you are able to enter' refers to this. The disciples and
lay donors of Nichiren by believing undividedly in
'forthrightly abandoning expedience' and 'not receiving
even one verse of other sutras' shall enter into the
Jeweled Stupa of this Object of Worship" (Nichinyo
gozen gohenji, STN, v. 2, 1376).>>
If so, what you quote from Nichiren actually backs up
what I say, because any faithful follower of Nichiren
can use his or her belief in him and the Lotus to justify
and validate *anything* at all, not to mention the mass
massacre of foreign civilians who have already been
tied up (such trifle!). The fact that Japanese soldiers
committed atrocities against foreign civilians whilst
screaming "Banzai!" ("Ten Thousand Years of
Longevity to the Japansese Emperor!") is no different
from a faithful follower of Nichiren committing any vile
and odious crime at all, regardless of severity (indeed,
many such followers could also have been amongst such
soldiers), because as your quote says:
<<"The attainment of Buddhahood or non-attainment of
Buddhahood by the evil people of the Latter Age does
not depend upon the lightness or gravity of their sins
but is just according to their belief or unbelief in this
Sutra">>.
Morality counts for exactly nothing, in your scheme. In
your words: "deliberately take such a state of absence
of distinction as carte blanche for doing anything" is
fully justified and validated by the mere faith in Nichiren
and the Lotus.
Tang Huyen
Julian
Yes. Nichiren was a Catholic... just not a Roman one.
Tang Huyen
Julian wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>
> > If so, what you quote from Nichiren actually backs up
> > what I say, because any faithful follower of Nichiren
> > can use his or her belief in him and the Lotus to justify
> > and validate *anything* at all, not to mention the mass
> > massacre of foreign civilians who have already been
> > tied up (such trifle!). The fact that Japanese soldiers
> > committed atrocities against foreign civilians whilst
> > screaming "Banzai!" ("Ten Thousand Years of
> > Longevity to the Japansese Emperor!") is no different
> > from a faithful follower of Nichiren committing any vile
> > and odious crime at all, regardless of severity (indeed,
> > many such followers could also have been amongst such
> > soldiers), because as your quote says:
> >
> > <<"The attainment of Buddhahood or non-attainment of
> > Buddhahood by the evil people of the Latter Age does
> > not depend upon the lightness or gravity of their sins
> > but is just according to their belief or unbelief in this
> > Sutra">>.
> >
> > Morality counts for exactly nothing, in your scheme. In
> > your words: "deliberately take such a state of absence
> > of distinction as carte blanche for doing anything" is
> > fully justified and validated by the mere faith in Nichiren
> > and the Lotus.
>
> Yes. Nichiren was a Catholic... just not a Roman one.
It is the same structure (pattern, meme) of thought
and action: "Have faith in me and do whatever you
want". Augustine says some famous things along
that line, but with regard to the Christian God, of
course. Plus �a change ...
The case of Emma is particularly poignant, in that
she takes her husband Darwin to be damned
(forever) and herself to be saved (forever)
regardless of any other consideration, like their
respective morality. Of course she does not do
anything as she pleases just because she believes,
but her belief in her and his respective destiny due
solely to faith is very telling. If people who are
intimate to each other and love each other like her
and him can think that way, people who are
strangers to each others will be vastly more
brutal, on the basis of faith alone and no other
consideration.
To return to Nichiren: Japanese Zen is famous
for training soldiers to go out and kill, especially
foreigners who have been already tied up, and for
advocating such acts of mass massacres from
religious reasons (compassion, emptiness, absence
of self, etc.), but Nichiren is not in any way
different. If faith in him and his Lotus is all that
matters regarding salvation, then morality counts
for nothing. Zip zero zilch. Just go ahead and do
what you want, your salvation is already assured.
Tang Huyen
Julian
Also the Lotus Sutra itself encourages that attitude...
Then the Buddha said to the four kinds of believers:
"Devadatta, after immeasurable kalpas have passsed,
will attain Buddhahood.
He will be called Heavenly King Thus Come One,
worthy of offerings of right and universal knowledge,
perfect parity and conduct, well gone, understanding the world,
on itself worthy, trainer of people, teacher of heavenly
and human beings, Buddha, World-Honored One."
Tang Huyen
Julian wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>
> > To return to Nichiren: Japanese Zen is famous
> > for training soldiers to go out and kill, especially
> > foreigners who have been already tied up, and for
> > advocating such acts of mass massacres from
> > religious reasons (compassion, emptiness, absence
> > of self, etc.), but Nichiren is not in any way
> > different. If faith in him and his Lotus is all that
> > matters regarding salvation, then morality counts
> > for nothing. Zip zero zilch. Just go ahead and do
> > what you want, your salvation is already assured.
>
> Also the Lotus Sutra itself encourages that attitude...
>
> Then the Buddha said to the four kinds of believers:
> "Devadatta, after immeasurable kalpas have passsed,
> will attain Buddhahood. He will be called Heavenly
> King Thus Come One, worthy of offerings of right
> and universal knowledge, perfect parity and conduct,
> well gone, understanding the world, on itself worthy,
> trainer of people, teacher of heavenly and human
> beings, Buddha, World-Honored One."
If everyone will be saved (which is true according to
the optimistic soteriology of the Tathagata-garbha
school, to which the Lotus is loosely affiliated), then
just make merry and do what you please, though
you may have to wait for awhile before your turn
comes. (The same structure/pattern/meme of
universal salvation is taught by Gregory of Nyssa, an
older contemporary of Augustine, though he doesn't
mention the inference about the absence of morality.
He calls it "universal restoration").
Or, you can just relax and be serene, now. Nobody
needs to predict your awakening or salvation or
whatever. Afflictions are awakening, right?
Tang Huyen
Hollywood Lee
It is the ultimate "get out of jail (or hell) free" card. Hallelujah!
Let's party.
Julian
It doesn't need to be an alternative.
One can have ones cake, eat it
AND relax and be serene, now.
Buku
wrote:
Many [not all] once they get a taste [experience one moment of joy and
understanding] of the Sublime Dharma, don't want to wait for the
ultimate reward, They determine to go for it in this very life, push
to the limit, "peace and security in this very life and a fortunate
birth in the next".
Buku
Buku
> from a faithful follower of Nichiren committing any vile
> and odious crime at all, regardless of severity (indeed,
> many such followers could also have been amongst such
> soldiers), because as your quote says:
Of course you have many examples of this [as compared to the countless
examples from those of the Zen sect] ?
Fact is, those who practice as the Lotus Sutra preaches, are the least
violent people on the planet. Wherefore? Because the Lotus Sutra,
unlike the Quran, Bible, and Vedas, has not one exhortation to kill.
Buku Joy to you and yours