I haven't ever understood the law of karma.
First of all, I think that morality is completely relative and for
some kind of law of good and bad would need an universal moarality.
Second, it doesn't seem to me, that harming others or anything like
that would always cost something back from you.

Could you help me understanding the law of karma, is there any sense
in it and what does it mean?

-ajna

On 3 Sep 2003 00:50:42 -0700, tomaeoahiotkust...@surfeu.fi (ajna)
wrote:

I think there *is* a universal morality - within the realm of the
human race, at least, and that is the realm in which we live. For
example: If you kill someone and steal their money every time you run
out of money, you are promoting that way of life. Ultimately, if
everyone followed suit, then human society would become hell. No-one
needs that. So we have what might be called natural laws: e.g., do not
kill for gain, do not steal, etc.

According to the philosophy of vedanta, everything is ultimately one,
including all living things. So if you hurt someone else, you actually
hurt your higher self and you plunge yourself deeper into maya, which
is denial of the higher reality.  That's how I see it, anyway.

Jake

greetings,

ok.......the opened lotus hangs down through the body.........up/down
the center of it flies these sparks called vittri's and they collect in
the orb of the ocean of milk in small glistenings to large pools the
large pools are called samsaras.......cause / effect.....the karma is
stored impressions in the ocean of milk a concentric orb of a nimbus or
soul seen in samadhi...............memmory mostly bio-functions walking
breathing eatting sexing the ordinary physical things create vittri's or
anything REPEATED AND REPEATED ..........the smallest things are just
shimmering glistens flecks tiny pearlesence vittris that smooth
out.........memory..........now some people go as far to believe that
this soul survives bodily death but those found it also so those that
find it believe it survives death.........those that didnt find it have
no proof it exists for them and it might not as for the other it was
decompressed into the world for the other it never existed outside
......the gunas or three concentric rings allow decompresion but dont
exist in the un decompressed state...........karma either way is memmory
but in samadhi that memory takes on the qualities of suttle supersensual
matter has location (ITS VERY INTERESTING).........in the unsamadhied
karma is collected memory.........your memmories hold you here cause and
effect.............jai

Greetings,
My present view is that the samadhi reoccurs samo samo from its prior
decompression and thats what survives bodily death a new enity doing its
thing because of the prior decompression or incarnations...........now i
have two schools east/west.........east says stop nimbus west leads one
to nirvana or the comming kingdom via steps after the nimbus........one
would abort the results of the other.............east would say you know
now so qwit remove yourself no more involvement where west is more only
a few survive till the end.........me just some guy from the suburbs a
basic nobody following it out with nobody to determine my answers is
going for the ride.

I could of started breathing when bored of the nimbus but that would be
learned from men as i choose the natural way t-bolt unknowingly choosing
it of course/grin . To start breathing would end samadhi but force it a
self decision i just flipped a bolt and it was naturally all lined up to
do its thing easy to the end or nirvana years later siddha after siddha
later all easy. Now if i would of had instructions before i might of
aborted all those easy siddhas never knew what was up this
far..........jd

news:b36a0866.0309022350.401b9662@posting.google.com...

Not only is all morality relative but all knowledge whatsoever is
relative as known by the mind. There is no such thing as certainty in
the universe. Certainty exists only in geometry and mathematics -
idealizations.

There are fundamental problems with attempting to answer any question on
morality. One must first agree on the same basic underlying ass umptions
of the belief system of the other person. Otherwise, questions on
morality might be easily answered but tons of time spent attempting to
provide evidence for underlying assumptions and evidence for the
warrants for the inferrence of those assumptions. Fortunately you are
talking about a general idea about morality itself without anything
specific.

Since, as you say right and wrong are relative, attempting to arrive at
any notions of an absolute set of rights and wrongs is the wrong
project. All reality is based on agreement. If I say something is a
chair, chances are people will agree with me if it half way looks like a
chair - until such time as the things being a chair is called into
question. Same with what you say is right. At some point we will
disagree on something about the chair, and at some point we will
necessarily disagree on what is right. This is because both our minds
have been programmed by different experiences in life and our versions
of right and wrong must necessarily differ at some number of places past
the decimal point so to speak. To disagree however implys we agree up to
a certain point. This agreement is the only means there is in the entire
universe for a mind to know ANYTHING.  It is the agreement of
attributes/qualities of a phenomena (morality/chairs - you name it) that
makes it 'real'.

Justice is an abstract idea. It has no spatiotemporal existence/does not
occupy space and time. But if a community votes a law of 35 miles per
hour for traffic in on a street, justice is reified into existence in
that way (the wave function is popped in that way). If someone is caught
speeding by the police, they will be pulled over and have to pay a
ticket. Physical reality is changed. Justice of the version of 35 MPH is
reified into existence as a particular form. So if you deemed 40 MPH was
better and got voted down, your reality would be that you must drive 35
or get a ticket whether you believe it is 'right' or not. Someone
over-rode your version of right with their own by empirical vote of the
community for 35 instead of 40. Right and wrong are reified into
existence as the set of laws where you live (either democratically or by
other means). Right and wrong are democratically accomplished by vote of
the people. This makes the laws they have their reality. Those laws can
not be in conflict with a higher authority. Local laws can not legalize
state laws for example and state laws can not override federal/national
laws.

However, right and wrongs are simply conceptions held by minds. They are
abstractions reified into law as self-imposed restrictions. When an
airliner flys into the World Trade Center, Americans say this is wrong.
Osama claps his hands and to a bird flying by - something violent
occured. What is right and wrong depends on who's shoes you are standing
in. In reality there is no such thing. There is only karma. Karma is
action that begets action. The action is neither good nor bad. All
things that happen to you are self-caused. All suffering is
self-inflicted. The reason you do not know what is happening to you is
because you can not remember what causes you set in motion in the past
that resulted in what is happening to you this very instant. All things
in the entire universe are always as they 'should be.' Not a single
electron on the other side of the universe is doing otherwise.

You can not remember your past lives so you can not remember your past
causes. So it appears in this life lots of things that happen to you are
by chance. It looks like things are beyond your control. In reality,
there is no such thing as past, present and future. Nor do you have free
will. The mind appears to be making choices all the time because it does
not know what the future will bring. But that is a limitation of the
mind only. Atman has no such restrictions. It knows all things all the
time. It is omnicient. The past, present and future are an open book to
it. We are nothing more than actors on a stage playing out what was
determined long ago. In the same way in a drama on TV the actors appear
entangled in it and the set of things/choices available to them appears
to be limited/they act in context with the characters around them - we
also act in this way. But the director or producer operates at a
different level of reality than the actors do. Yet he can influence the
course of events/step in at any 'time' and change things.

One of the favorites of atheists is to ask the question 'Can God do
anything.' The religious person will say yes. Then the atheist says - No
He cannot, for a thing can not both 'be' and 'not be' at the same time
(the law of non-contradiction). But God can do anything - including both
being and not-being - but not in this universe because if He did it
might have catastrophic conditions for the universe itself. Even God
must abide by His own rules in His universe if He wishes to not destroy
it. Vishnu uses a spider as God and the web as the universe as an
anaolgy. In theology this is know as the 'ordained power of God' vs the
'absolute power of God.' We as Atman are basically the same as God. (see
what I mean about getting into assumptions of belief systems. So far I
have assumed the existence of God and Atman and Karma and Reincarnation
and other things implicitly. I am going on here because this is a yoga
NG and the assumption is reasonable here.)

Lets go further into karma and reincarnation. You say, I won the
lottery! I got lucky. Karma couln't have anything to do with that. But
this is simply not true. First of all 'we are all connected' is not a
vague expression in religion. It is a scientific fact - even before
quantum physics and general relativity - gravity on all particles act on
all other particles in the universe no matter how distant. The universe
itself was created from the Big Bang. Space and time came into being
with the Big Bang. (Space is not empty either.) At one time we were all
sqeezed into 100 billionth of a billionth the size of a proton - a
Planck Length singularity. Non-Locality has been proven - this means
that a particle 15 billion light years from Earth can be acted upon
instantaneously. (Search on Bell's Inequality Theorem/Alain Aspect and
John Clauser)

So - how did Abraham Lincoln die? John Wilkes Booth shot him is the
simple answer - but we might also say that due to the reliablity of the
particular manufacturer of the handgun he use played a role in the
successful assassination of Lincoln. Had he used a lesser reliable
model, chances are Lincoln might have not been assassinated. You could
say that it was due to the highly motivated people that work in the
plant that manufactures that gun he used. You could say, well, had it
rained, Lincoln wouln't have given the speech and may not have been
assassinated. In fact, not only is there no single event that led to
Lincolns death, but in fact the entire universe contributed to his
death. An asteroid that marked its path 7.4 billion years ago had a
chance encounter with a particular moon that stayed its course and wound
up not striking earth that day where as had it not been set off course
it would have crashed into the earth and ended all life on earth. You
could say it was because God made protons with a decay period as long as
He did that Lincoln was assassinated. Had God made the decay life of
protons 6 million years, there would never have been life had time to
evolve on earth and so forth. The entire universe in a way played a role
and the entire universe plays a role at every single instant. All things
cause all things.

That science is unable to associate causes of physical matter with mind
and so forth is a technological problem. David Bohm and David Peat,
Michael Talbot, Karl Pribram and even Nobel Prize winner John Eccles
(Neuroscience/the brain)  do have an explanation how mind is connected
to matter. Bohm calls it the Implicate Order and has to do with the
universe as a 3-D hologram. It is not that they have a testable theory
but rather a theory looking for a means to be tested - much like
Einstein had to wait 3 years for a total eclipse of the sun for his
general relativity theory. Today theoretical physicsists have the lead
in superstring theory. They construct thought experiments (Gerdanken!)
and hope something testable falls out of them. We do not currently have
either the technology (particle accelerators) nor the mathematics (E.
Witten quantum geometry) to move forward very much in superstring
theory. So it is not surprising we do not know what the mind is because
the mind is a quantum physics entity. Much to my surprise and delight
the famous Neuroscientist John Eccles - a Nobel Pize winner also I found
out believes this as well. That makes up for the other 95 percent of the
idiots in neuroscience.
I have his book Evolution of the Brain. Neuroscience thinks we are a
brain. Stupid city. The mind is the cause of the brain.

All of science and all of religion is based on causality. If you stick
your hand in a fire, you get  burned. Cause and effect. If you smoke 2
packs of cigarretts a day for 30 years you get cancer. In the later case
the effect is delayed but still manifests. Desires unfulfilled by you at
death are like rocks on a mountain. The rocks contain potential energy
and when the right conditions come along they fall and ...

read more »

In article <b36a0866.0309022350.401b9...@posting.google.com>,

Ajna,

Here¹s how I understand karma.

There is a tremendous sense in the law of Karma. It is after all a law
or principle and it must act the same anywhere in the universe at any
time. However karma is in no way related to morality or any
Judeo-Christian notion of justice, retribution or punishment. Karma is
very simply the effect (or movement) of our actions.

Imagine a pond. You throw a pebble into the pond and it creates a
ripple. The ripple moves out from center of the impact area in all
directions. Eventually it reaches the shore of the pond and rebounds
back towards the center. This movement of the water displaced by the
pebble continues until the energy wares off and eventually it dissipates
and disappears. In the meantime imagine there are other pebbles being
tossed into the water creating their own ripples and these ripples meet
other ripples and then deflect changing the course, speed and duration
of all the waves concerned. Each and every wave is dependant on how
large a pebble or boulder is tossed into the water.

Imagine that the pond is the Universe and that the pebbles are our
actions. The waves are karma and the size, strength and duration of the
wave is determined by the size or strength of our actions. The collision
of waves and their effect on the waves of the original actions are
combined effects of our actions and the actions of others. The return of
the waves to the point of origin represents the effect of our actions
(good or bad) cycling throughout the universe and coming back to us.

Karma is the effect (or wave) created by our actions and it must
continue to come back to us until it is played out. The more intense the
action the longer and harder the movement of the karma. This playing out
of karma can be in a life this time or in many but we can not avoid it.
This is why we might suffer (or benefit from) in this life  the effects
of our actions taken in another life-time.

It is said that if one attains enlightenment or self-realization and
when one lets go of any attachment to the fruits of their action that
the wheel of karma stops and we no longer create karma or are attached
to its consequences. Hence we could save a life or take a life and the
consequence would be the sameŠ Nothing.

I don¹t believe that the actual effect of my actions stops when I am not
attached to the outcome. I believe my suffering (or elation) over the
effects stops and this is what is meant,  by the wheel of karma stopping.

Karma is not about good or bad it just is. Our actions are not good or
bad, they just are. The degree to which we suffer, blame, judge, condemn
or accept is our choice and is not a condition imposed on us by others,
the universe or God. We must all take personal responsibility for our
own actionsŠ Period. If we resist we suffer, if we accept we stop
suffering. It¹s as simple as that.

Namaste.

Ok. This I understand if you say simply that karma = causality, but
that murdering someone causes you to be murdered. Sorry if I sound
stoupid, maybe I read this post too quicly but this is how I
understand what you said. Do all actions cause equal reactions,
exactly the same?? Doesn't sound convincing.

-ajna

Ok. This I understand if you say simly that karma = causality, but
that murdering someone causes you to be murdered. Sorry if I sound
stoupid, maybe I read this post too quicly but this is how I
understand what you said. Do all actions cause equal reactions,
exactly the same?? Doesn't sound convincing.

-ajna

< Among M.D.'s opening remarks>
There is no such thing as certainty in the universe. Certainty exists
only in geometry and mathematics - idealizations.

Smile,
Somewhere between black and all colors...... in this little marvel a
nimbus the perfect distribution of light..... i think maybe in all
humilty geometry might best describe its flawlessness especially if you
notice any ray of light geometry describes perfectly anyway........this
would be no exception. Karma is a precise certainty for some
folks........others still might need to cut the stone their karma might
only relate to external chaos its laws rules for them....... internals
never applied in life so why as in death.

Its very possible the imprint comes from the moment of birth the seasons
sun/moon hours and all that past life stuff doesnt apply just them being
pulled into the natural order of birth its hours days seasons some born
musicians others born labors via time place those rules of
birth.......besides that french man proved it beyond a doubt with
hospital records in the last few decades its complete fact. birth the
time not the past gives positon in society and its based patterns from
the parents the world soul again.

Besides the only thing incarnating and the manner or number of
incarnations is that nimbus at its regular times......10 incarnations
means then a nimbus incarnated in ten men ten times why or 20 and i
believe it stopped stopped 20 or the last few hundred years was aimed 20
up from 1 meaning it was 19 once apon a time. You see theres no logical
reason non for pastlives if you look at the world as living giving order
the only thing returning with its indestructable order is that nimbus
and the various possibles or how many men between how many suns/moons
had one as thats returning over and over nothing else is. Except theres
patterns that support it as it identifies to sucessful patterns not
limited to one virtualy doing as it wishs. Its only modern come to find
out everyone was given one. Before they had a bloodlline this item soul
nimbus doesnt seem care about that....never strikes twice does it in the
same bloodline hell no it doesnt not a genetic thing about it.....jd

news:b36a0866.0309032356.2df806f6@posting.google.com...

The idea is correct but in practice it does not work that way. If you
cause someone to lose a leg it is possible for instance to lessen the
backlash where you do not suffer leg loss. Cause and effect are the
basis of all of science and religion. Technology is such that it can not
be shown to be true but there is basis for it scientifically. I am not
in the convincing business. Just present the material for you to
evaluate. I suggested some books. Action resulting in action is pretty
basic to me. Common sense will tell you the world is flat and the sun
comes up in the east and goes down in the west as well.

Mike Dubbeld

Mike - Apparently, all your knowledge comes from your senses.

The senses can be decieving - maybe the Earth only APPEARS to be flat.

Sure, the "sun comes up", except the Earth rotates around the sun.

But, there is no such thing as "west" in deep space.

According to Nagarjuna, things don't change, neither do they move. Can you
cite one single observation that would lead you to believe in causation?
Just one.

I've already mentioned my observation that human excrement always flows
downhill, but I could be wrong.

Maybe everything is based on predestination. How would you know?

news:n_WdnU7TILE4isWiRTvUpQ@texas.net...

Did you figure that out all by yourself?

Do all actions cause equal reactions,

I am trying to show that things that seem to be common sense are not
particularly correct. In other words it is convincing to say the sun
comes up in the east every morning and goes down in the west as well.
But this convincing observation is not true.

I have no clue what your talking about. All of science and religion are
based on causality. If you are refering to Hume's constant conjunction
and that anything could be the cause of anything, this is all true. But
to use Hume's own response to the good Bishop Berkley  - it is also
equally useless. Berkley also said his revelation changes nothing. You
still get up in the morning. You still eat etc. Since there is nothing
that can be done about knowing what transpires between events and there
is no certainty in the univere, we need not sit in a corner and pout.
Plato the rationalist did take this attitude whereas Aristotle valued
information gained about the world and is often refered to as more of an
an empiricist/scientist. Bishop Berkley was a believer in Idealism,
basically nothing is real to include the universe but are illusions. To
quote Vivekananda 'These vrittis are our universe.' (Vrittis being
waves) See my new post on the Holographic nature of the universe and how
it ties in with the brain and quantum physics.

Aristotle also formed the 4 causes of Material/Efficent/Formal (my
world)/and Final cause or teleological cause. Miss Science decided to
get rid of all but the efficient cause. Aristotle also formulated the
First Cause. The cause that gave rise to all else in the universe.
Thomas Aquinas (whose hero was Aristotle and affectionately called him
'The Philosopher') followed suit for the Christian Church.

'You' as ego-mind never will. The mind appears to be making decisions
because it does not know the future. But this restriction does not apply
to Brahman/Atman/God. You as ego-mind have free will. Free will is a
humerous subject.
All things are already completely known by Atman which is omnicient.
That is what entails the very notion of omnicience. If you do not
believe in that and have a 'trainer-wheel god' that learns in time and
space, I suggest you do a search on Whitehead and Process Philosophy.
Always good for a laugh.

A fundamental limitation here in the jungle is underlying assumptions of
our belief systems. It is at best coincidence when we agree on things in
the jungle. To de-thrown mind worshipers requires mind weapons. At the
core of all knowledge are some very simple but very profound principles.
The most profound knowledge is the type such that if the human race
became exitinct, and all life vanished from Earth and strated again to
form another race of humans, the exact same knowledge would reappear. I
am not interseted in changing the subject about whether or not human
life forms would reappear. Rather, all the idiosyncratic ideas of all
the different religions would disappear. When the different founders of
religions attempted to cast out what they know in words/their Divine
perceptions, they did the best they could. But naturally it was
distorted. So we have different religions and people ready to have holy
wars. Idiots. They don't call the Upanishads Breath of the Eternal for
nothing. Some ideas would resurface again minus the religious dogma.

Truth is where you find it. Science also searches for truth. We are all
part of a cosmic learning game. That game is constucted in maya in the
form of karma and birth and death. Desires at death are causes. They are
stored with potential energy and wait for conditions to arise to release
this energy and a birth results pulling the soul back into an
incarnation of a gross physical birth. What can not be known is karma
generally except even this can be known by a yogi. A yogi can tell you
the exact moment 'he will fall.' His death. When there is no longer any
karma/causes there is no longer any reason for him to animate a body.
Some stay on as Enlightened by they are as rare as the ones that achieve
the ability to willfully abandon the body not fearing any further birth.

In the above discussion you notice I have made a large number of
assumptions. My belief system calls for them and my explanations fit
very well with them. But I am simply not interested in convincing you or
anyone else of the validity of my assumptions. It is a chance you have
to take in the jungle. Faith is not a requirement of yoga. Faith is
something you walk around with till you get the facts. You entertain a
hypothesis to see if it is true by testing it. By true I mean
experiencing something as opposed to holding some hypothesis about
something.

Maybe this tells me more than you can imagine. Everything was finished
long ago, we are simply like actors on a stage playing out events in a
karmic drama. Karma self-created. Only after many incarnations of having
been kings and queens, rich and poor, smart and dumb - you name it do we
begin to suspect the ego in its wisdom of seeking happiness in the
external world. Yoga quite simply is not for everyone. Only when a
person is dissatisfied with life to such an extent that they recognize
the ego desire generating illusion of searching for happiness in the
external world and turn inward. The world then calls him spiritual and
yoga says he is awakened. (Hittleman).

Controlling the mind is the same as controlling the entire universe. The
mind is subtle matter. By controlling the inner the outer automatically
comes under control. But this control of the mind is the hardest thing
you will ever do. It is also the last thing you will ever do. Notice I
am not interested whether you believe this or not. All are freed from
the universe eventually. It is not a question of if you control your
mind at all. It is only a question of WHEN you control your mind. If not
in this life maybe in a life or 2. Since controlling the mind is so
difficult, it is to be expected there will be very few participating.
But it also makes sense tons will attempt to twist yoga into something
it is not to allow their egos to believe they too are doing yoga. Thats
not even actually important. It simply means you are not ready to
control your mind. Not good. Not bad. Just karma/where you are in your
own particular evolution.

I have to talk about it in different ways because yogic metaphysics is
so simple it is pretty boring. That something is true leads to being
able to express it in a seemingly infinite number of ways. Knowing the
metaphysics is one thing. Spirituality is something entirely different.
Spirituality is applying yogic metaphysics.

Mike Dubbeld

Hmm. Because the of cause of karma may not appear so instantly as for
example hitting a drum and causing some noise, it's very dificult to
be convinced about it, you know, if there's no way to prove it right.

Maybe this is something that can not be convinced by explaining it...
Right now i don't see any sense in it.

-ajna

Karma "reaction" came from the Sanskrit kri "action." In my little
understanding it has nothing to do with good or bad, it is mere
retribution of the energy or principle of an act. If you stole
something you may not necessarily view it as bad. In the Qur'an for
example, stealing food or medicine due to an immediate need is not a
crime. Now, regardless of your moral persuasion, the energy of that
act will ultimately return to you, not always exactly but an
appropriation (e.g. theft of any kind), same principle.

Sometimes it's instant, sometimes it takes some. The divine law of
reciprocity works in mysterious ways. But when retribution takes a
long time, it is often compounded. This is why it is said in the Bible
"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind ..."
(Hosea 8:7) So, instant is better. According to Karma Yoga, you can
actually neutralize your karma by way of selfless service and devotion
to God. Both constructive and destructive karma causes rebirth, so the
idea is to be rid of all of it.

Thank you.

Yours,

Brother Brahman-Atmananda
http://www.onegreatpower.org

Ajna,
as a moniker this guys mortal he lives dies once right?..... as hes the
square peg to lifes round hole if he lived before he'd know something be
evolved up to the point to get lifes benefits but hes not so he basicly
admits it....... hes telling the truth hows he know what karma looks
like he cant so it dont apply to him. it would only apply if he lives
again or before and he didnt as thats what he wants to know. He
understands moralty but if no self realization whats he care he has to
trust then and nature never requires trust ever. So he puts in his time
dies those lessons he learned.... NOW SOMEBODY ELSE ISNT THIS GUY and
thats that and the rules state nothing is impossible for war gives both
fruits and spoils.

His mortal parents ushered him here to fill his spot ran those
bloodlines filled those combinations out did natures work in mans body
that potential now that him and all the combos of those others ya know
bloodlines birth death so why try to bullshit him promise him after
death he gets another deal....IF HE WAS getting any deals he'd be
telling you about karma....jd

Well this would be just the same as saying that karma = causality, and
you couldn't reason anything like: "don't be bad to others" or
something out of it.
Especially if one would get free from ones attachments. Then it
wouldn't really matter what's happening.

-ajna

The whole thing about 'karma' is continually confused and the words are
usually used in a completely wrong context.

Karma simply means action.  Many people make the fundamental mistake that it
refers to the reactions, ie getting back your karma.

The potential reaction or reactive momenta in its potentiality is called
samskara.

The resultant or fruition is called karmaphala.

If people learnt the basic terminology in the correct context, any
discussion would make better sense.

news:bj8k70$kua$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
:
: news:b36a0866.0309032356.2df806f6@posting.google.com...
: > > If you do something nice for someone, they will be impressed and in
: turn
: > > create the karma to do something nice for someone else. They in turn
: > > will do the same.

In article <b36a0866.0309050402.611ef...@posting.google.com>,

ajna,

Just the opposite, Karma = Effect, not Cause. But yes, you are correct.
There is no point in trying to control or manipulate karma by not being
bad to others (morality), etc. anymore then trying to control the smoke
from a fire would change the fire. When the fire is gone, so then, is
the smoke.

God is First Cause. God is Truth. We exist in and as whatever God is.
When we live our life in alignment with the truth of who we are, then
all actions we take will be moral, no matter what the nature of those
actions. It is never about the action itself (stealing, killing, giving,
kindness) it is always about what meaning or purpose we bring to the
action. This is why laws and systems of morality can never be applied
universally nor will they ever work to bring about goodness or morality
in others. You will always have those who appear moral and good who are
in fact evil and those who appear evil but who are good. Jesus Christ
provides a good example of this. He appeared to be and was judged a most
heinous criminal; a law breaker; a blasphemer and he was put to death
for his crimes. But in reality (truth) he was as moral as it is possible
to be.

Karma is an effect and it has no relationship to morality whatsoever. It
is not reward or punishment for actions taken. It is only the movement
of those actions throughout the universe and it will always return to us
in absolutely perfect proportion to the nature of our attachment to the
fruit of those actions. This is why karma is often confused for some
sort of punishment. What goes around does come around, this is universal
principle. It just doesn¹t have anything to do with disserving it. It
just does.

Ask Jesus Christ, Mahatma Gandhi or the man who stood in front of the
tanks in Tiananmen Square. These people all lived in alignment with the
truth and they all died violent deaths (of course there is no death,
there is only God). Did they deserve it? I don¹t think so. Did it
happen? Sure did. Karma? No doubt about it. Retribution? Nope, just
karma. Just universal, impersonal and immutable law.

If your question about karma is really a question about how to be moral
then I would make this suggestion. Live your life as if there is God.
Not only will you live a moral life (no matter what anyone says or does)
but you will be happy and free. This would not be an easy task and it
will take a significant amount of time to even begin to understand or
comprehend what it would be like to live like there was God. But anyone
who makes the effort will reap as their reward their birthright; nothing
less then dominion over the universe. I guarantee it and I will double
your money back if its not true.

Namaste

news:1062786275.143283@news-1.nethere.net...
:
: Just the opposite, Karma = Effect, not Cause.

The effect is actually called karmaphala.  Karma is the action that leads to
samskara and expression of samskara or results are karmaphala

: There is no point in trying to control or manipulate karma by not being
: bad to others (morality), etc. anymore then trying to control the smoke
: from a fire would change the fire. When the fire is gone, so then, is
: the smoke.

The single point is that good actions are elevating to mind and so lead to
spiritual upliftment.  This is called HLA'DINII  or RA'DHIKA' SHAKTI which
is an expression of of vidya' shakti, or vidya, which one experiences as a
desire to do something practical towards spiritual attainment.  For that
elevating tendencies of mind are the drivers which comes from donig good in
the world.  Whether one does good or bad, there will be samskara created.
The way to prevent that is to do all things with an ideation of God
consciousness of Madhuvidaya - doing actions and thoughts with the central
focus that all is an expression of Brahma (God) through the Supreme
Consciousness.

In article <M186b.84746$bo1.12...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,

In article <M186b.84746$bo1.12...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,

Dharma,

Thanks for the heads up. I agree that I was using the word karma
incorrectly and I will have to change how I use it when commenting on
the principle of cause and effect. I had noticed you made this point in
a post to Mike D and I thought your point was excellent. Although it
really doesn't change the meaning of what I said.  My believe is that
your comment about good actions being spiritually uplifting was
essentially a yogic/Hindu restatement of what I had said in my post
regarding living life like there is God.

I often experience problems around language and its proper use, when
communicating with others.  Add to that a language foreign to most of us
being used to explain or describe a notion or principle not clearly
understood by many and you have a real potential for confusion.

My comments were less about eastern philosophy and more about universal
principles which operate in all places, languages and situations. I've
always lamented that principles couched in religious of philosophical
terms do a real disservice to regular people who are just trying to
navigate their existence as best they can. This is why I really
appreciate Emmet Fox, Ken Keyes and others who work hard at demystifying
the truth. They take concepts normally conveyed in Biblical, religious
or philosophical terms and tell us what they really mean, how they
really apply to us and how we can use them in our lives.

Thanks again. Your response and clarification are appreciated.

Namaste

It true one cannot prove causation, but there definitely a relationship.
One one is around things occur.  Belief in causation results in all sorts
of things, stories, conceptual frameworks, measurement...

Yes, predestination is an antithesis of causation.  But that would
be a cause wouldn't it? :)

Wade

news:1062810694.734798@news-1.nethere.net...
:.  My believe is that
: your comment about good actions being spiritually uplifting was
: essentially a yogic/Hindu restatement of what I had said in my post
: regarding living life like there is God.

There should be no catergorisation as it is fundamental spiritual
psychology.

Thanks

greetings,
It seems theres some shooting around cause/effect. by shootng i mean
firing at random to poke holes in the standard expression so lets
clarify cause/effect ok.

Cause could be anything lets say a tack on the ground one miss's
.......that leads to effect the puesdo ouch jump reflexual holds that
play on self and then replant of the foot etc........that being lets say
the effect well the effect leads to a new different cause.......the
person stops effects then moves from a cause in another new direction
which then has new different causes and effects...........action/result
.....results of one's actions..........nothing deep complex heady about
this.........YET THE ACTUAL KARMA the seers, sages, theologians,
learned, wise, the teachers, gurus, priests, swamis, discuss is much
deeper or the actions in the opened lotus from the same causes/effects
just the interplay within and concepts about the same from the position
of being in a nimbus observing the super sensual matter of what
transpires from the sensual outter world to the super sensual inner
anatomy of soul........jd