where is Mike Dubbeld?
fortunasdaughter
ajna
He's moving. He said he'd come back when he is able.
Narayana
Oh! Nice and gentle Mike!
I miss him....
N :)
Stu
maz...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/23/03 6:09 AM:
Are we thinking of the same guy who makes disparaging remarks about anybody
who has a practice different then his own?
From the posts I had read he mostly parrots Sivananda. He has some
knowledge of yoga from reading Hittleman and Feurstein. But when it comes
to reconciling other traditions of yoga he gets downright mean. He is nasty
to those who follow Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Makes clearly uninformed posts
about the waste of time of Transcendental Meditation.
He will always take a swipe at anyone who is following the father of Astanga
Yoga Sri K. Pattabhi Jois. As well as remarks about Brian Kester and Beryl
Benders form of Power Yoga. These remarks to anyone with experience in
these yoga forms know they are speculative and fictional.
You may want to do a google search and review some of the threads by this
guy you call "Nice and gentle".
I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
something here?
--
~Stu
ajna
> something here?
Yes.
Stu
tomaeoahi...@surfeu.fi wrote on 12/24/03 12:39 AM:
>> I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
>> something here?
>
>
> Yes.
Was it his intolerance of Buddhists?
--
~Stu
Not one to let hate and intolerance off so easy.
Compassion Determination
>in article b36a0866.03122...@posting.google.com, ajna at
>tomaeoahi...@surfeu.fi wrote on 12/24/03 12:39 AM:
>
>>> I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
>>> something here?
>>
>>
>> Yes.
>
>
>Was it his intolerance of Buddhists?
>--
If there is a post with the subject power yoga he will come running..
:-)
Kaiko
omjaroo
> I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
> something here?
An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
let go? An opportunity to grow?
Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all they
both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
their lips.
Namaste
Stu
omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/25/03 8:38 PM:
>
>> I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
>> something here?
>
> An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
> opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> let go? An opportunity to grow?
So your saying if a guy spouts hateful rhetoric on this NG and I find it
offensive this is self generated resentment.
I feel it is my duty to point it out.
Any other action would be disingenuous.
I see the transcendental spirit on all people and all things. I also see
the lack of spirit. I will not be duped.
>
> Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
> attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
>
> I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all they
> both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
> their lips.
I believe Jesus was quite critical of the Roman establishment and Jews who
were not following the tradition. Gandhi was very critical of the British.
I am free to be critical of intolerant posters like Mike D. He has
continually posted hateful indictments of people who do not practice exactly
the type of yoga he feels is correct. I feel strongly in my heart that his
long winded posts are for the most part tamasic.
He's made claims about these other practices with out a clear understanding
of these systems. Please do a Google search and read his various threads -
he comes off as a consummate troll at alt.atheism and
alt.meditation.transcendental.
You can defend him all you want. But be very careful of who you are
defending. Do you really think somebody as arrogant and prejudice as Mike
can be compared to Gandhi or Jesus?
--
~Stu
>
> Namaste
Hari Har Singh
"Stu" <nos...@no.spam> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:BC1352D2.25E98%nos...@no.spam...
> in article 10724134...@news-1.nethere.net, omjaroo at
> omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/25/03 8:38 PM:
>
> >
> >> I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
> >> something here?
> >
> > An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
> > opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> > let go? An opportunity to grow?
>
> So your saying if a guy spouts hateful rhetoric on this NG and I find it
> offensive this is self generated resentment.
>
> I feel it is my duty to point it out.
>
> Any other action would be disingenuous.
I agree.
I can see God in everybody - that does not mean that everybody behaves
"godly" :-)
Sat Nam - Hari Har Singh
Hari Har Singh
"omjaroo" <omj...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:10724134...@news-1.nethere.net...
>
> > I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
> > something here?
>
> An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
> opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> let go? An opportunity to grow?
Fritz Pearls once said that people ask questions for many reasons - mostly
to prevent making a statement or to insult others.
If you take the questionmarks away, what is your statement?
Something like:
"I feel / see that you have self-generated (justified) resentment, do not
see God in all people and all things and missed an opportunity to let go
and to grow."?
Who can know if he has self-generated (justified) resentment, is clinging or
not growing?
Can you know if that is true?
Can you really know it?
Aaah, i love that "work". :-) It is really a great tool. Try it!
And thank you for your posting.
http://www.thework.com
> Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
> attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
>
> I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all they
> both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
> their lips.
>
> Namaste
I hope nobody does have to pay with his live for writing what he did in this
NG.
What do you want to tell us with this paragraph about jesus and gandhi?
Hari Har Singh
omjaroo
I appreciate you responding to my post. It would have been easy not to.
I also appreciate your positive and respectful tone. Something I have
come to count on from you. Which is one of the reasons why I was a bit
surprised at your gratuitous indictment of Mike D. Seems more in
character for him then you. The fact that he wasn't party to the thread
and there to defend himself also gave me pause.
I think that because you thought I was defending Mike, you missed the
message in my post. I had changed the subject. Something I am apt to do
when I think there is something more important to consider. In this case
you. So by way of explanation I offer the following clarifications.
> >> I have been more offended by his posts than
> >>illuminated. Am I missing something here?
> >
> > An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to let go? An opportunity to grow?
I was answering a question you posed. I was not defending or even
talking about Mike D. My interest in this thread is communicating with
Stu. I understand and appreciate that because your question was not
really a question but a statement (an attack on) that you might
interpret any answer as a statement (defense of).
Mike D has his own purpose in attacking what he sees as negative
(offends him). I do not share many of his ideas. I do however like Mike
D and I have benefited from a number of his contributions. In my opinion
Mike is very knowledgeable and it is clear to me that he works very hard
at his participation in alt.yoga. I sense that he has integrity and do
not sense any malicious motive. I think the same about you, and you seem
to be more positive in your outlook and responses, which agrees with me.
> So your saying if a guy spouts hateful rhetoric on this NG and I find it offensive this is self generated resentment.
All feelings are self-generated (and justified) and as soon as you said
you were offended, I knew we were not dealing with Love but with
resentment (fear). A feeling, believe or judgment which is not being let
go (forgiven) but which is continuing to cause pain and discomfort
(feedback). Knowing very deeply about resentment (self-inflicted
torture) myself, I was moved by compassion to reach out and suggest
(Socratic method) some areas you might look at to help you become aware
of and therefore in a better position to let go (grow out) of your
resentment.
> I feel it is my duty to point it out.
And I feel it's my duty and Mike has also said he feels it's his duty to
point out others faults. Gee, we seem to be more alike then not in this
regard :-)
> Any other action would be disingenuous.
Of course and Mike has made this same point.
> I see the transcendental spirit on all people and all things.
Did you mean on or in all people? One would come from somewhere on to
someone. The other would come from within all things.
>I also see the lack of spirit.
Some place where spirit is not? How could that be? If God is everywhere
and God is Spirit, where could there not be Spirit and what god would we
find there?
>I will not be duped.
Yes, I am afraid you will. So will I and everyone else. No one can lie
to us unless we are deceiving ourselves and this we all do most of the
time. Anytime I see someone or something as distinctly separate or
different from me then I am lying to myself. It's all God, it can't be
different. I can appear to be different but in the spiritual sense I
can't be.
> > Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
> > attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
> >
> > I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all they
> > both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
> > their lips.
>
> I believe Jesus was quite critical of the Roman establishment and Jews who
> were not following the tradition. Gandhi was very critical of the British.
The question I have to ask myself when I am being critical is (like the
seven-up commercials :-) what's my motivation? Am I pointing out
someone's fault or error in Love (knowing I am them) or in fear
(resentment, anger or jealousy, they). Same action, two different
motivations. One based on the Truth (God) and one based on a lie (fear).
> I am free to be critical of intolerant posters like Mike D.
Of course.
>He has continually posted hateful indictments of people
>who do not practice exactly
> the type of yoga he feels is correct. I feel strongly in my heart that his
> long winded posts are for the most part tamasic.
> He's made claims about these other practices with out a clear understanding
> of these systems. Please do a Google search and read his various threads -
> he comes off as a consummate troll at alt.atheism and
> alt.meditation.transcendental.
There is some truth in what you say. I also think there are things you
are missing because your feelings cloud your intuitive (universal)
knowing.
> You can defend him all you want. But be very careful of who you are defending.
The last thing I want to do is defend Mike D. He is a big boy and he can
take care of himself. After all he is the one mixing it up over power
yoga and TM. Besides we all get what we need (deserve). Besides I see
all paths as leading to God. So there are no mistakes or misdirections
or anything wrong I my world. There is only God and God is perfect.
>Do you really think somebody as arrogant and prejudice >as Mike can be
compared to Gandhi or Jesus?
I was not comparing Mike D with Gandhi or Jesus. I was pointing out that
these two men were very experienced at being attacked by others and that
they showed us another way to deal with it besides resentment, anger,
hatred or malice. Yes they were very critical and they excelled at
pointing out the faults of others. For this they paid with their lives.
It was their purpose and motivation in doing so that sets them apart
from many of us. They did what they did from a Love (God) space, not a
fear (evil) space. I mentioned them as a model for you (and I) to
consider when dealing with perceived (or actual) attacks on us in
alt.yoga or elsewhere by Mike D, Omjaroo or anyone else ;-)
Jared
Namaste
Hari Har Singh
[...]
> > I feel it is my duty to point it out.
>
> And I feel it's my duty and Mike has also said he feels it's his duty to
> point out others faults. Gee, we seem to be more alike then not in this
> regard :-)
Looks like a party of 'teachers' lacking 'students' to bother
;-)
omjaroo
"Hari Har Singh" <ff...@gmx.de> wrote:
> "omjaroo" <omj...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:10724134...@news-1.nethere.net...
> >
> > > I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I missing
> > > something here?
> >
> > An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
> > opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> > let go? An opportunity to grow?
>
> Fritz Pearls once said that people ask questions for many reasons - mostly
> to prevent making a statement or to insult others.
> If you take the questionmarks away, what is your statement?
> Something like:
> "I feel / see that you have self-generated (justified) resentment, do not
> see God in all people and all things and missed an opportunity to let go
> and to grow."?
How right you are. I can't help but wonder what Mr. Pearls would have to
say about using statements made by famous dead people to make your
point :-))
> Who can know if he has self-generated (justified) resentment, is clinging or
> not growing?
That's easy.
Resentment? The Bible tells us, "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
What is the result of the comments, feelings or criticisms?
Togetherness, connectedness, understanding, compassion, appreciation,
encouragement, support, forgiveness, reconciliation, enlightenment,
healing, etc these would be the fruits of Love. Or anger, retribution,
disparagement, misunderstanding, punishment, misdirection, agitation,
ignorance, etc and these would be the fruit of fear (resentment). Is it
helpful or is it hurtful?
And growing? We are always growing. The moment we appear not to be it's
because the vehicle has expired. We (the I Am) however continues, sans
vehicle until we pick up another.
> Can you know if that is true?
Yes
> Can you really know it?
Yes
Now what?
>
> Aaah, i love that "work". :-) It is really a great tool. Try it!
> And thank you for your posting.
And thank you for saying so :-)
Thanks for the link, very good stuff, really. Hardly revolutionary,
although it would seem so if you had no other experience or reference to
this technique. A modern, stylized form of Jhnana. If you like this I am
certain you would like Ken Keyes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness. It's
one thing to constantly question what we think and feel but eventually
we have to answer the question. Otherwise the exercise is pointless (not
to mention frustrating).
> > Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
> > attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
> >
> > I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all they
> > both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
> > their lips.
> >
> > Namaste
>
> I hope nobody does have to pay with his live for writing what he did in this
> NG.
Me too :-)
> What do you want to tell us with this paragraph about Jesus and Gandhi?
I was pointing out that these two men were very experienced at being
attacked by others and that they showed us another way to deal with it
besides resentment, anger, hatred or malice. Yes they were very critical
and they excelled at pointing out the faults of others. For this they
paid with their lives. It was their purpose and motivation in doing so
that sets them apart from many of us. They did what they did from a Love
(God) space, not a fear (evil) space. I mentioned them as a model for
Stu (and I) to consider when dealing with perceived (or actual) attacks
on us in alt.yoga or elsewhere by Mike D, Omjaroo or anyone else ;-)
I personally have only one desire left (to let go of) and that is at the
moment of my passing to have the presence to see only God and to move
fearlessly from one state to another knowing and speaking the Truth;
there is no death, there is only God. Both Gandhi and Jesus died in
communion with God. Gandhi's last words were "Rama" and Jesus said, "It
has been accomplished".
Jared
Namaste
Wade Humeniuk
>
> Looks like a party of 'teachers' lacking 'students' to bother
>
> ;-)
>
LOL, I would nominate that as one of the alt.yoga's funniest remarks
of 2003. :))
Wade
Where have all the students gone?
Long time passing...
Where have all the students gone?
Long, long time time ago...
Where have all the students gone?
Become teachers, everyone.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
omjaroo
"Hari Har Singh" <ff...@gmx.de> wrote:
Remember, although it may seem like it sometimes, we are not the only
ones reading these posts. Governments, students, saints and sages,
newbys, lurkers, trolls, masters and all manner of inquiring minds
follow the pithy and wisdom imbued musings and repartee here in alt.yoga
:-)
But seriously, I liken everything I say to planting a seed. If it has
life (Truth) and it finds fertile ground (student) then it will grow and
express God's Love. If it is barren (lies) then it will fall to the
ground, to wither and die. I work hard at making myself understood and
to communicate the Truth I have learned in an interesting, entertaining
and accessible manner. I realize all to well, I fall far short. I also
realize that everyone has their own path and their own fears and that I
can not compel anyone to think or believe anything. This is why I try to
stay with I statements. Anyone can pick and choose whatever they need or
want from whatever I say. Take what you want and leave the rest. As long
as I avoid you statements then there is less reason to defend or argue.
Every day in every way I am getting better and better. In the mean time
though...
Namaste
Stu
omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/28/03 9:54 AM:
> Stu,
>
> I appreciate you responding to my post. It would have been easy not to.
> I also appreciate your positive and respectful tone. Something I have
> come to count on from you.
Believe me I struggled with the question whether it was beneficial to send a
negative post. We are not the only ones reading these threads. They are
archived as well. I felt it important to issue a proviso to the lurkers now
and in the future to read Mike D's posts with grain of salt.
> Which is one of the reasons why I was a bit
> surprised at your gratuitous indictment of Mike D. Seems more in
> character for him then you. The fact that he wasn't party to the thread
> and there to defend himself also gave me pause.
There is nothing gratuitous about the post. If the bridge is out it is
important to erect some type of blockade to stop unsuspecting drivers from
going into the river.
The post was common courtesy.
>
> I think that because you thought I was defending Mike, you missed the
> message in my post.
"An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
let go? An opportunity to grow?"
This is the message I got from you. I don't think it was missed. It is
there in black and white.
> I had changed the subject. Something I am apt to do
> when I think there is something more important to consider. In this case
> you. So by way of explanation I offer the following clarifications.
>
>>>> I have been more offended by his posts than
>>>> illuminated. Am I missing something here?
>>>
>>> An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
>>> opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to let
>>> go? An opportunity to grow?
>
> I was answering a question you posed. I was not defending or even
> talking about Mike D. My interest in this thread is communicating with
> Stu. I understand and appreciate that because your question was not
> really a question but a statement (an attack on) that you might
> interpret any answer as a statement (defense of).
>
> Mike D has his own purpose in attacking what he sees as negative
> (offends him).
Again, I ask you to look at his posts and interpret his motivations for
attacks.
> I do not share many of his ideas. I do however like Mike
> D and I have benefited from a number of his contributions. In my opinion
> Mike is very knowledgeable and it is clear to me that he works very hard
> at his participation in alt.yoga.
No doubt there have been times when he contributes to the group. I did not
say that all his posts were malicious. In fact in my opinion the vast
majority of his posts are benign.
> I sense that he has integrity and do
> not sense any malicious motive.
Then you have not read his posts. On many occasions he has made wholesale
renouncements of spiritual practices I am close to. These incriminations
are made out of ignorance.
> I think the same about you, and you seem
> to be more positive in your outlook and responses, which agrees with me.
Thank you. I generally try to stay positive. However if you look at my
posts in other NGs dealing with greater controversy than alt.yoga you will
find I like point out the broken bridges ahead more often.
>
>> So your saying if a guy spouts hateful rhetoric on this NG and I find it
>> offensive this is self generated resentment.
>
> All feelings are self-generated (and justified) and as soon as you said
> you were offended, I knew we were not dealing with Love but with
> resentment (fear).
Please understand there is no trace of fear here. When I read deep tamasic
material in someone's posts I will respond. When someone praises that
poster, I sense an obligation out of courtesy to put up a warning.
Of course the other tactic is to ignore the ramblings and hope they will go
away. That might be the fearful approach.
> A feeling, believe or judgment which is not being let
> go (forgiven) but which is continuing to cause pain and discomfort
> (feedback). Knowing very deeply about resentment (self-inflicted
> torture) myself, I was moved by compassion to reach out and suggest
> (Socratic method) some areas you might look at to help you become aware
> of and therefore in a better position to let go (grow out) of your
> resentment.
And I am always on the lookout for ways to open up and allow more compassion
in my life.
>
>> I feel it is my duty to point it out.
> And I feel it's my duty and Mike has also said he feels it's his duty to
> point out others faults. Gee, we seem to be more alike then not in this
> regard :-)
Not so much. For me the duty was born out of compassion. I leave Mike D's
archive of posts for you to determine the motivations for his anti-Buddhist,
Anti-TM, and anti-astanga yoga pronouncements.
>
>> Any other action would be disingenuous.
>
> Of course and Mike has made this same point.
Not really.
>
>> I see the transcendental spirit on all people and all things.
>
> Did you mean on or in all people? One would come from somewhere on to
> someone. The other would come from within all things.
>
>> I also see the lack of spirit.
>
> Some place where spirit is not? How could that be? If God is everywhere
> and God is Spirit, where could there not be Spirit and what god would we
> find there?
That statement is true on one level but not true on another level.
>
>> I will not be duped.
>
> Yes, I am afraid you will. So will I and everyone else. No one can lie
> to us unless we are deceiving ourselves and this we all do most of the
> time. Anytime I see someone or something as distinctly separate or
> different from me then I am lying to myself. It's all God, it can't be
> different. I can appear to be different but in the spiritual sense I
> can't be.
That is a idealist approach. It would be more instructive to take a more
integral approach to life. Yes, on an idealist level all things are one.
However the opposite is true from a practical/relative level. There is a
hierarchy to evolution/growth. Some things/people are more developed at
different tasks than others. I can not play guitar like Jimi Hendrix, I can
not practice physics like Hawkins, I can not swim like a dolphin and I
certainly don't know hatha yoga like BKS Iyengar. Yet I continue to look
for areas of growth especially in these model people.
On the other hand there are those who I find of little value to growth.
In an integral approach I strive to balance the ideal with the relative.
Buddhist doctrine calls this the middle way.
Please by all means point out what I am missing. That was my initial
question in this thread. The google archives are open. You can copy and
paste what you want.
I am happy to have some light shine into the darkness.
>
>> You can defend him all you want. But be very careful of who you are
>> defending.
>
> The last thing I want to do is defend Mike D. He is a big boy and he can
> take care of himself. After all he is the one mixing it up over power
> yoga and TM. Besides we all get what we need (deserve). Besides I see
> all paths as leading to God. So there are no mistakes or misdirections
> or anything wrong I my world. There is only God and God is perfect.
Again an integral approach agrees with you that all paths lead to god.
However, some paths will get you there more safely and with less damage to
those around you.
Integration.
>
>> Do you really think somebody as arrogant and prejudice >as Mike can be
> compared to Gandhi or Jesus?
>
> I was not comparing Mike D with Gandhi or Jesus. I was pointing out that
> these two men were very experienced at being attacked by others and that
> they showed us another way to deal with it besides resentment, anger,
> hatred or malice. Yes they were very critical and they excelled at
> pointing out the faults of others. For this they paid with their lives.
> It was their purpose and motivation in doing so that sets them apart
> from many of us. They did what they did from a Love (God) space, not a
> fear (evil) space.
Not if in Jesus' case you were a Roman or in Gandhi's case your were a
British Colonial. From their adversary's point of view these guys were
parasites.
The lessons we take away from these guys are their deep rooted understanding
of the complex issues of a dualistic world and understanding when it is
appropriate to take a stand.
Note that Jesus failed at this task, the Romans continued to rule the Jews,
and that Jews still have not found a Kingdom of God.
Gandhi's non-dualistic approach was more successful.
That is if you are keeping score.
The middle way. Look from all angles.
> I mentioned them as a model for you (and I) to
> consider when dealing with perceived (or actual) attacks on us in
> alt.yoga or elsewhere by Mike D, Omjaroo or anyone else ;-)
>
> Jared
>
> Namaste
I promise I will continue to put up road blocks when I see the bridge is
washed out ahead.
--
~Stu
Shahin Malekpour
"Wade Humeniuk" wrote:
> Hari Har Singh wrote:
> > Looks like a party of 'teachers' lacking 'students' to bother
> > ;-)
> LOL, I would nominate that as one of the alt.yoga's
> funniest remarks of 2003. :))
I second that. :)
> Wade
> Where have all the students gone?
They are still in bed; sensible things. :)
> Long time passing...
> Where have all the students gone?
> Long, long time time ...
> Where have all the students gone?
> Become teachers, everyone.
> When will they ever learn?
> When will they ever learn?
"Everybody who is incapable of
learning has taken to teaching."
Oscar Wilde
Stu
omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/28/03 11:10 AM:
>> Who can know if he has self-generated (justified) resentment, is clinging or
>> not growing?
>
> That's easy.
>
> Resentment? The Bible tells us, "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
> What is the result of the comments, feelings or criticisms?
What was the result to Jesus when he talked about throwing Pearls before
swine; or when he condemned the money changers in the market; or his general
disdain for the Roman authority? According to the scribes who wrote about
the guy he had no problem with "comments, feelings or criticisms". This
rabbi had no problem pointing out faults.
Careful when quoting the NT, it is written just ambiguously enough that you
can derive any meaning from it.
> Togetherness, connectedness, understanding, compassion, appreciation,
> encouragement, support, forgiveness, reconciliation, enlightenment,
> healing, etc these would be the fruits of Love. Or anger, retribution,
> disparagement, misunderstanding, punishment, misdirection, agitation,
> ignorance, etc and these would be the fruit of fear (resentment). Is it
> helpful or is it hurtful?
From who's point of view are you speaking? One man's anger, retribution,
disparagement, misunderstanding, is another man's understanding, compassion,
appreciation, encouragement, support, forgiveness. Ask a Catholic Priest
pedophile if they think they were acting out or fear or Love. Most of these
perverts think they were acting out of love.
Our sense of compassion needs to come out of the depth of non-duality. That
is the only measure. If you can not sense non-duality than you may rely on
myths for moral guidance, but they tend to be unreliable.
--
~Stu
puma
> in article 10726340...@news-1.nethere.net, omjaroo at
> omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/28/03 9:54 AM:
Dear Stu:
Ever since this question asked I just thought why they have asked it?
And really did not find any satisfaying answer...
Because every time Mike Dubbeld has replied with annoying type
posters,He always thought that people who love Buddism are the ones
that is called atheist.
He has a monopoli regarding God and spirutual work too. If you have a
different idea he called (idiot) he always insulted...
These are facts ,if the people missing him are really care,they can
check how he has used his rich vocabulary to insult people here...
Many people here ,many times kindly requested to stop using such bad
wording.But who cares!
So not having him here is a sort of gain....
All the posters as you have indicated are free to check his way of
insulting action.
So I completely agree with you. You are not alone...
With kindest regards,
Puma
Compassion Determination
>
>Mike D has his own purpose in attacking what he sees as negative
>(offends him). I do not share many of his ideas. I do however like Mike
>D and I have benefited from a number of his contributions. In my opinion
>Mike is very knowledgeable and it is clear to me that he works very hard
>at his participation in alt.yoga. I sense that he has integrity and do
>not sense any malicious motive. I think the same about you, and you seem
>to be more positive in your outlook and responses, which agrees with me.
>
Yes, Mike's approach seems to be that when he does not understand some
principle, he attacks the ones who espouse that princple. Then he
reads their responses to understand that principle. A very
immature/childish/selfish approach, but no doubt he endures the fruits
of it.
If i am attacked by Dubbeld (or anyone else), my responses could be
one of two:
1. i get angry. This is an opportunity for me to analyze and
understand the insecurity (fear) or doubt (ignorance) within me which
led to my anger. Hence it is an opportunity for growth.
2. i don't get angry. This is an opportunity for me to analyze and
understand why I was attacked by Dubbled/other person, and to
understand the source of their insecurity (fear) or doubt (ignorance)
which caused them to attack me. Then I can respond appropriately in
such a way as to reduce their fear or ignorance. Either way, nothing
is lost, as long as one is willing to turn every negative occurance
into a positive opportunity.
HB
omjaroo
Thanks for the detailed response. It's appreciated.
> There is nothing gratuitous about the post. If the bridge is out it is
> important to erect some type of blockade to stop unsuspecting drivers from
> going into the river.
>
> The post was common courtesy.
Rof :-)))) That was good!
I have only followed the group for a year or two and there is lot's I
don't know. I used the word gratuitous because while the poster's tongue
in cheek comment about Mike's sunny disposition certainly opened the
door I didn't understand why you needed to say what you did. I'm sorry I
didn't realize you were on a mission.
> > I think that because you thought I was defending Mike, you missed the
> > message in my post.
>
> "An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment? An
> opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> let go? An opportunity to grow?"
>
> This is the message I got from you. I don't think it was missed. It is
> there in black and white.
>
OK I won't press. Although I might caution you about the black and white
stuff ;-) Someone smart once said, as soon as you think you know
something then you shut off your mind and heart and can no longer hear
or see. (John Grinder, NLP, I think)
> > Mike D has his own purpose in attacking what he sees as negative
> > (offends him).
>
> Again, I ask you to look at his posts and interpret his motivations for
> attacks.
To tell you the truth Mike's attack posts bore the daylights out of me.
I don't see any point and I don't think they are motivated by love but
by fear. So nothing but evil (of course there is no evil, only God) can
come from them. I have shared my thoughts and feelings about this with
Mike in the past.
> > I sense that he has integrity and do
> > not sense any malicious motive.
>
> Then you have not read his posts. On many occasions he has made wholesale
> renouncements of spiritual practices I am close to. These incriminations
> are made out of ignorance.
Recognizing (and accepting) ignorance in ourselves and others is a high
level spiritual activity. But of course you have no need to defend your
spiritual practice nor to condemn anyone else's. Let him rant, who
cares. For someone to be mislead or discouraged by his comments, they
would have to turn from the Source to listen to him and whatever they
get is what they need to, in order to progress on their path. In other
words they will get what they deserve. We all have to learn about
listening to others instead of our own inner voice. It's a painful but
necessary lesson.
> > I think the same about you, and you seem
> > to be more positive in your outlook and responses, which agrees with me.
>
> Thank you. I generally try to stay positive. However if you look at my
> posts in other NGs dealing with greater controversy than alt.yoga you will
> find I like point out the broken bridges ahead more often.
I try to stay off of other groups. I learned my lesson (ouch) recently
by stepping into the middle of a cross-posted discussion concerning the
shiddhis. I watch the headers more closely now and pay more attention to
exactly what people are talking about and whether I have sufficient
knowledge or experience to participate ;-(
> Please understand there is no trace of fear here. When I read deep tamasic
> material in someone's posts I will respond. When someone praises that
> poster, I sense an obligation out of courtesy to put up a warning.
If there is no fear then there is Love. One or the other. Zero or One,
on or off. Either our actions are motivated by fear or they are
motivated by Love. There is no middle ground.
> Of course the other tactic is to ignore the ramblings and hope they will go
> away. That might be the fearful approach.
It's never the thing itself that has meaning, only our motivation for
using it that gives it meaning. The ignore and do not empower with your
energy technique could be used in a fearful manner or from Love. Seems
that on usenet the ignore method is more effective (and less irritating
and bandwidth sucking) then flaming or arguments.
> > A feeling, believe or judgment which is not being let
> > go (forgiven) but which is continuing to cause pain and discomfort
> > (feedback). Knowing very deeply about resentment (self-inflicted
> > torture) myself, I was moved by compassion to reach out and suggest
> > (Socratic method) some areas you might look at to help you become aware
> > of and therefore in a better position to let go (grow out) of your
> > resentment.
>
> And I am always on the lookout for ways to open up and allow more compassion
> in my life.
This I think is the most noble of pursuits. Try to understand what Mike
is afraid of and what drives him to attack others. If you can get a
sense of that it will be much easier to have compassion. My sponsor
(guru in AA parlance) used to say, everyone is doing the best they can
with what they have and when they can do better they will do better. So
take people where they are and assume they are doing the best they can
(including yourself) and take it easy.
> >> I feel it is my duty to point it out.
> > And I feel it's my duty and Mike has also said he feels it's his duty to
> > point out others faults. Gee, we seem to be more alike then not in this
> > regard :-)
>
> Not so much. For me the duty was born out of compassion. I leave Mike D's
> archive of posts for you to determine the motivations for his anti-Buddhist,
> Anti-TM, and anti-astanga yoga pronouncements.
I try to bring us together and your inclination is to is to distance :-(
> > Some place where spirit is not? How could that be? If God is everywhere
> > and God is Spirit, where could there not be Spirit and what god would we
> > find there?
>
> That statement is true on one level but not true on another level.
I agree with you. Except there is really only one level; the level of
the absolute. The other levels are but shadow. Nonetheless I understand
what you mean.
> >> I will not be duped.
> >
> > Yes, I am afraid you will. So will I and everyone else. No one can lie
> > to us unless we are deceiving ourselves and this we all do most of the
> > time. Anytime I see someone or something as distinctly separate or
> > different from me then I am lying to myself. It's all God, it can't be
> > different. I can appear to be different but in the spiritual sense I
> > can't be.
> That is a idealist approach.
I prefer to call it an absolutist approach :-) To me an idealist is one
who hasn't gotten kicked in the teeth yet and turned his innocence into
cynicism. I have lived both those lies in the extreme and have moved
beyond them. Now there is only God and God is absolute and has no
opposite.
>It would be more instructive to take a more
> integral approach to life. Yes, on an idealist level all things are one.
> However the opposite is true from a practical/relative level. There is a
> hierarchy to evolution/growth. Some things/people are more developed at
> different tasks than others. I can not play guitar like Jimi Hendrix, I can
> not practice physics like Hawkins, I can not swim like a dolphin and I
> certainly don't know hatha yoga like BKS Iyengar. Yet I continue to look
> for areas of growth especially in these model people.
Agreed, for many practical reasons. Absolutists tend to scare the piss
out of many and it is a good way to get yourself hung on a cross
somewhere or thrown in a prison or mental hospital.
> On the other hand there are those who I find of little value to growth.
My sponsor used to say, everyone is good for something even if it's an
example of what not to do :-)
> > There is some truth in what you say. I also think there are things you
> > are missing because your feelings cloud your intuitive (universal)
> > knowing.
>
> Please by all means point out what I am missing. That was my initial
> question in this thread. The google archives are open. You can copy and
> paste what you want.
>
> I am happy to have some light shine into the darkness.
I have alluded to some ideas above but believe me it has nothing to do
with Mike D or his attacks nor your defenses and warnings. It has more
to do with transcending the need to react or not to either.
> >> You can defend him all you want. But be very careful of who you are
> >> defending.
> >
> > The last thing I want to do is defend Mike D. He is a big boy and he can
> > take care of himself. After all he is the one mixing it up over power
> > yoga and TM. Besides we all get what we need (deserve). Besides I see
> > all paths as leading to God. So there are no mistakes or misdirections
> > or anything wrong I my world. There is only God and God is perfect.
> Note that Jesus failed at this task, the Romans continued to rule the Jews,
> and that Jews still have not found a Kingdom of God.
The Bible tells us that Jesus' task was to fulfill a prophesy and to
offer mankind an opportunity for everlasting freedom. To forfeit his
life to pay for the sin of Adam and Eve. This he did. Jesus had no
interest what so ever in the local politics. The Jews on the other hand
killed their promised King and would probably do it again if he appeared
tomorrow (that is if he wasn't going to deliver Armageddon) This is
their lesson. When they learn it, they too can be free.
> Gandhi's non-dualistic approach was more successful.
>
> That is if you are keeping score.
Where Jesus taught and practiced spiritual principles and had no use for
material concerns, Gandhi brought those same principles to bear on
material (political) structures. He, like Jesus demonstrated that a man
could be physically free by living in alignment with his higher
spiritual self. They both changed the world (for the better) moving
humanity forward toward reunification (yoga) of awareness in God.
> I promise I will continue to put up road blocks when I see the bridge is
> washed out ahead.
I wouldn't want it any other way :-) I hope you don't mind me insisting
that the bridge is perfectly fine. Or even better, that there is no
bridge at all. Nothing to cross, nowhere to go. nothing to attain. We
are all there right now. Because there is only God and whatever God is,
we are. And whatever God has, we have and whatever God knows, we know.
That God is Love and there is only Love.
Cool conversation. Thanks for being a good sport. It speaks well of you.
Jared
Namaste
Stu
omj...@yahoo.com wrote on 12/28/03 4:01 PM:
> Cool conversation. Thanks for being a good sport. It speaks well of you.
>
> Jared
>
> Namaste
Agreed. Made my Sunday. Nice talkin' to you.
--
~Stu
Stu
hb...@aol.com wrote on 12/28/03 3:23 PM:
> Just wondering how many people here got vacinated for the Influenza this year?
I did.
--
~Stu
omjaroo
FearNothin...@indiatimes.com (Compassion Determination) wrote:
Isn't it nice to be grown up? So much easier to live :-)
Namaste
Compassion Determination
>>
>
>Isn't it nice to be grown up? So much easier to live :-)
>
Wish some of my colleagues would realize that :-|
Edwilk
Me too.
-Ed
Compassion Determination
(Compassion Determination) wrote:
<snip of Dubbeld's modus operandi :-) >
To teach there should be compassion.
To learn there should be humility.
Without humility, how can one acknowledge one's ignorance?
Without ignorance, what can there be to learn?
Hari Har Singh
"Wade Humeniuk" <whum...@delete-this-antispam-device.telus.net> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:M0GHb.81701$ss5.14907@clgrps13...
ROFL! :-D
Yeah!
Wade - that's great!
Let's make that alt.yoga NG hymn!
If i, or somebody else, find a midi-file of that song maybe i can use that
as backgroundmusic for the alt.yoga hamoepage :-)
Great...
*hehe*
Hari Har Singh - Yoga teacher *off duty*
Hari Har Singh
"Compassion Determination" <FearNothin...@indiatimes.com> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:3fef86b8...@130.133.1.4...
> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:28:49 -0800, omjaroo <omj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >Isn't it nice to be grown up? So much easier to live :-)
> >
>
> Wish some of my colleagues would realize that :-|
>
LOL
:oD
2nd laugh in this thread today!
That is a good one!
Thank you!
Hari Har Singh
Hari Har Singh
> In article <bslsju$ea038$1...@news.hansenet.net>,
> "Hari Har Singh" <ff...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > "omjaroo" <omj...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:10724134...@news-1.nethere.net...
> > >
> > > > I have been more offended by his posts than illuminated. Am I
missing
> > > > something here?
> > >
> > > An opportunity to let go of a self-generated (justified) resentment?
An
> > > opportunity to see God in all people and all things? An opportunity to
> > > let go? An opportunity to grow?
> >
> > Fritz Pearls once said that people ask questions for many reasons -
mostly
> > to prevent making a statement or to insult others.
> > If you take the questionmarks away, what is your statement?
> > Something like:
> > "I feel / see that you have self-generated (justified) resentment, do
not
> > see God in all people and all things and missed an opportunity to let
go
> > and to grow."?
>
> How right you are. I can't help but wonder what Mr. Pearls would have to
> say about using statements made by famous dead people to make your
> point :-))
:-)) Got me?
I don't know, haven't read about that yet.
I just read this statement not long ago and didn't want to hide the source
or claim that this "wisedom was growing on my shit" .
Maybee it's a sign of low self-esteem of me doing so...?
:o)
But I can imagine what Fritz Perls would say to this NG:
"It's all mindfucking bullshit!"
>
> > Who can know if he has self-generated (justified) resentment, is
clinging or
> > not growing?
>
> That's easy.
>
> Resentment? The Bible tells us, "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
> What is the result of the comments, feelings or criticisms?
> Togetherness, connectedness, understanding, compassion, appreciation,
> encouragement, support, forgiveness, reconciliation, enlightenment,
> healing, etc these would be the fruits of Love. Or anger, retribution,
> disparagement, misunderstanding, punishment, misdirection, agitation,
> ignorance, etc and these would be the fruit of fear (resentment). Is it
> helpful or is it hurtful?
>
> And growing? We are always growing. The moment we appear not to be it's
> because the vehicle has expired. We (the I Am) however continues, sans
> vehicle until we pick up another.
That is nice, thank you.
>
> > Can you know if that is true?
>
> Yes
>
> > Can you really know it?
>
> Yes
>
> Now what?
OK.
It seems to me we are speaking / writing on somewhat different levels.
That's ok.
> >
> > Aaah, i love that "work". :-) It is really a great tool. Try it!
> > And thank you for your posting.
>
> And thank you for saying so :-)
>
> > http://www.thework.com
>
> Thanks for the link, very good stuff, really. Hardly revolutionary,
> although it would seem so if you had no other experience or reference to
> this technique. A modern, stylized form of Jhnana. If you like this I am
> certain you would like Ken Keyes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness.
Thank you for the book recomendation.
> It's
> one thing to constantly question what we think and feel but eventually
> we have to answer the question. Otherwise the exercise is pointless (not
> to mention frustrating).
That is what I like about the work too.
You get the answers.
But you get them as direct self experience, not as what Pearls would call
"mindfucking bullshit".
> > > Perhaps Gandhi and Jesus would proof instructive. They were both
> > > attacked and they both spoke of ways to respond to attack with Love.
> > >
> > > I think there must be something to what they had to say. After all
they
> > > both paid with their lives to say it. And they both died with God on
> > > their lips.
> > >
> > > Namaste
> >
> > I hope nobody does have to pay with his live for writing what he did in
this
> > NG.
>
> Me too :-)
>
> > What do you want to tell us with this paragraph about Jesus and Gandhi?
>
> I was pointing out that these two men were very experienced at being
> attacked by others and that they showed us another way to deal with it
> besides resentment, anger, hatred or malice. Yes they were very critical
> and they excelled at pointing out the faults of others. For this they
> paid with their lives. It was their purpose and motivation in doing so
> that sets them apart from many of us. They did what they did from a Love
> (God) space, not a fear (evil) space. I mentioned them as a model for
> Stu (and I) to consider when dealing with perceived (or actual) attacks
> on us in alt.yoga or elsewhere by Mike D, Omjaroo or anyone else ;-)
This is a good advice to me.
And thank you for pointing out that the opposite to fear is love.
I think that many don't know this and that this is something that cannot be
mentioned and reminded of often enough.
> I personally have only one desire left (to let go of) and that is at the
> moment of my passing to have the presence to see only God and to move
> fearlessly from one state to another knowing and speaking the Truth;
> there is no death, there is only God. Both Gandhi and Jesus died in
> communion with God. Gandhi's last words were "Rama" and Jesus said, "It
> has been accomplished".
>
> Jared
>
> Namaste
May your desire be fullfilled.
Wahe Guru!
Hari Har Singh
"HB" <hb...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:b901e82f.03122...@posting.google.com...
> Just wondering how many people here got vacinated for the Influenza this
year?
Me too :-)
Hari Har Singh
"Wade Humeniuk" <whum...@delete-this-antispam-device.telus.net> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:M0GHb.81701$ss5.14907@clgrps13...
I have found it!
http://wilstar.net/midi/whereflowers.mid
Enjoy and sing along with it aloud! :-)
omjaroo
> May your desire be fullfilled.
>
> Wahe Guru!
>
> Sat Nam - Hari Har Singh
Thank you for your blessing! A fine and wonderful gift.
The word, waheguru, means the existence is wonderful, the word guru
means master as such but for Guru Nanak 'guru' meant a bodiless
consciousness, the all pervading being, the omniscient one. Master is
the one from where I get my enlightenment, so even master is called
Parmatama roop. If we go to the root of word guru then it means
despoiler of darkness, as ³gu² in Persian language means darkness and
word ³ru² means light, thus one who wards away my ignorance my darkness
is guru. Hence waheguru has double meaning one towards master and one
for God.
Hari Har Singh,
Thanks for the post. I found myself chuckling throughout. I think it
started with the wisdom growing on my shit part! It's a treat to smile
once in awhile.
I was making a joke of my own, in my reference to you using the Pearl
quote. In reality I thought it was used in a perfectly appropriate
context with impeccable timing. You would have made any debating
professor beam with pride :-) Remember wisdom (discrimination) isn't
invented, it is handed down to us from others and then practiced until
we get good at it. As you say.
> But you get them as direct self experience, not as what Pearls would call
> "mindfucking bullshit".
It is gained by a process of making mistakes and being given correction.
A lot of it comes with just staying in the game long enough. It is a
very natural process.
> And thank you for pointing out that the opposite to fear is love.
And you have hit on the secret to all of happiness, not to mention
existence (see there was a secret, so now its out. I spilled the beans.
Hope I don't get thrown out of the Esoteric Conspirator's Club :-)
What you say is perfectly true on one level. Fear (in all it's forms,
hate, anger, jealousy, resentment, depression, ignorance, etc) appears
to be the opposite of Love. Relatively speaking this is very true. But
in absolute reality, Love has no opposite. God is Love and God has no
opposite. Fear, while it appears to have substance or existence is but a
shadow. Fear is what we call the nothingness and terror (feedback) we
experience in the absence of Love. Just like when we block the light
(which has existence) we perceive darkness (which does not exist). If
we remove heat (which has existence) we perceive cold (which does not
exist). In the absence of our awareness of Love (which is the only thing
that exists) we experience fear (an anticipation, a desire or an
imagining based on a future which can and will never exist or an equally
non-existent -dead- past). God (Love) is here now and only now. When our
awareness is in the present moment (the only one that exists), then our
awareness is with God (Love) and there can be no fear. To deny God is to
deny all that exists (phew! pretty scary place. I've been there, not
pleasant). Of course in reality one can not be out of the presence of
God. The appearance of this state can only exist in our imagination.
It would appear we live in a universe of opposites. But this is not
true. We live in a binary universe. One or zero. On or Off. It exists or
it doesn't. An absolute universe. Continuously alternating opposites are
an expression of the relative Mayic expression of God. It is much as you
said in your post.
> OK.
>
> It seems to me we are speaking / writing on somewhat different levels.
>
> That's ok
And it is OK, we can speak on different levels. The relative (Maya or
symbol or illusion) and the absolute (God, existence and reality). We
can also live in the relative or the absolute. The goal for me is to
reconcile and converge the two. From what I have read, bringing one
hundred percent of one's consciousness into the absolute makes it very
difficult to keep the vehicle existing in the relative. I think it wants
to go home :-)
God's Love
Jared
Namaste
Wade Humeniuk
> "Everybody who is incapable of
> learning has taken to teaching."
>
> Oscar Wilde
I just hope that there is not too narrow a window
to be able to learn. It is one of the great things I
have found about yoga is that it has extented my
ability to learn and not get rigid. Old dogs relapse
into teaching their old tricks, its one of the things
I ardently hope to escape.
Wade
Wade Humeniuk
> I have found it!
>
> http://wilstar.net/midi/whereflowers.mid
>
> Enjoy and sing along with it aloud! :-)
And the original lyrics, :)
http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/flowers-gone.shtml
Wade
Shahin Malekpour
I share the same thoughts, Wade. A quality that I find
admirable about yoga is the clarity that it brings by
opening the paths of learning, simply by dispensing
with a good deal of it! It's a process of re-designing and
edifying the mind in an elegant and logical arrangement
that few schools can claim. Art and science, rationally
and harmoniously working together.
The inevitable dysfunctional enthusiasts of artistic, scientific
or spiritual "temperament" with delusions of mastery (!) fill
the learning space with their noisy presence, ranging from
innocent amateurs to stark raving fundamentalists. The true
discipline of yoga, thankfully, is the antidote, and the way to
freedom from these tendencies that litter the learning space.
Anyway. I am back to reading the Gita. And what a wonderful
piece of work it is! :) I am aiming to finish studying it by the
end of the holidays, as I cross check different translations of it.
Regards,
Shahin
Bear
> ??????? anyone know?
Man, I can't beleive the conversations that sprung up around this simple
question. Especially with Stu and omjaroo, I've learned quite a bit.
There are some very inspirational words.
I've learned that everybody is around for a reason. Including Mike D.
The proof is right here, were it not for him, this post wouldn't have
caught my eye.
Bear
omjaroo
wrote:
Hi,
Isn't it great how that works?
Namaste
Bear
Very much so, Namaste. I said it before and I'll say it again, both to
you and God....
Thank you.
Bear