Pro Photog. Advise
Fotoman
I will be displaying at a upcoming bridal fair. There will be three other
photographers there, two are the low priced guys, one is the high end guy
and I'll be the upper middle priced guy. Ive never done much promoting,
most of my business comes from word of mouth. The bridal fair will be in a
near by town that I want to expand into.
Anybody have any great ideas for the display?
Whats the best give away? I would like to hear any ideas or whatever has
worked great for you in the past.
Thanks!
My real email address is johnled AT busprod DOT com
You put the at and dot symbol in.
(Fed up with SPAM)
BlkHatWhtDog
Fotoman wrote:
>
> I will be displaying at a upcoming bridal fair. There will be three other
> photographers there, two are the low priced guys, one is the high end guy
> and I'll be the upper middle priced guy. Ive never done much promoting,
> most of my business comes from word of mouth. The bridal fair will be in a
> near by town that I want to expand into.
>
> Anybody have any great ideas for the display?
really good albums. Call your favorite clients, the friendliest ones, and
invite them to come and help you with the fair. Have them SHOW their own
albums, give them some white gloves and let them flip the pages. Seeing a
happy client show their own pictures, being held like something as precious as
that will really set your work off.
>
> Whats the best give away? I would like to hear any ideas or whatever has
> worked great for you in the past.
I offered a complimentary engagement portrait. (I always liked to them
anyway, cause it is a great way to get to know your clients and they get to
appreciate what you can do for them, instead of the photos being just one more
chore on their wedding day, but that's slipping into another topic.) I would
do a couple dozen, even those who already had a photographer, and some of them
bought portraits, as much as they were paying the wedding day guy sometimes.)
What I would offer now, if I were to do a bridal faire is a free Black and
white section in the album. I usually shoot a roll or two of the new kodak
B&W C-41, I use a changable back camera, so I can pop it on for a few of the
couple, pop it on for a few candids, etc. It seems so special, but it just a
little effort, not any major hassel of running to another lab for special
prints.
>
> Thanks!
Todd and Jenny Richard
Hi :) This is my personal opinion, but I don't feel this is appropriate for
a.w. This is primarily a topic discussing the business aspect of photography.
Us brides are concerned with the wedding aspect and the technical aspects that
affect how our pictures look. Maybe this thread could continue in a.w.m and
r.p.m and stop in here? :)
Jenny
Fotoman wrote:
> I will be displaying at a upcoming bridal fair. There will be three other
> photographers there, two are the low priced guys, one is the high end guy
> and I'll be the upper middle priced guy. Ive never done much promoting,
> most of my business comes from word of mouth. The bridal fair will be in a
> near by town that I want to expand into.
>
> Anybody have any great ideas for the display?
>
> Whats the best give away? I would like to hear any ideas or whatever has
> worked great for you in the past.
>
> Thanks!
>
> My real email address is johnled AT busprod DOT com
> You put the at and dot symbol in.
> (Fed up with SPAM)
--
There is a place you can touch on a woman to drive
her crazy-her heart." ~Melanie Griffith, Milk Money
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/8340
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dewayne Hight
Todd and Jenny Richard wrote:
>
> Hi :) This is my personal opinion, but I don't feel this is appropriate for
> a.w. This is primarily a topic discussing the business aspect of photography.
> Us brides are concerned with the wedding aspect and the technical aspects that
> affect how our pictures look. Maybe this thread could continue in a.w.m and
> r.p.m and stop in here? :)
>
> Jenny
Brides like you are the reason I no longer do weddings. Who needs you? The guy
was asking what YOU might like to see in a display. What would most interest a
BRIDE.
I'd rather be run over by a 300 poind lineman than have to deal with another
bride and her in-laws
dewayne
Karen Simmons
Dewayne,
Maybe if you wouldn't display that attitude in a "room" full of brides,
you wouldn't have that problem, now would you?
Please don't start yet another photography related flame fest by leaping
on here when you've never posted before and making nasty comments like
this. It's uncalled for.
Or are you just trolling?
Karen
--
------------------------------
Karen Simmons Photography
Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.ks-photography.com
------------------------------
Wende Vyborney
Fotoman wrote:
>
> I will be displaying at a upcoming bridal fair. There will be three other
> photographers there, two are the low priced guys, one is the high end guy
> and I'll be the upper middle priced guy. Ive never done much promoting,
> most of my business comes from word of mouth. The bridal fair will be in a
> near by town that I want to expand into.
Think about what your competitive advantage would be, other than price,
and in more specific terms than "quality." What do you do that other
photographers in your price range might not? What do you do particularly
well? This is a good starting point for your display (although you're
right to also think about what brides *want* to see -- but we don't know
*all* the choices available to us).
I just received a very tempting brochure from a local photographer.
Oddly, it had no sample photos! (Not a good idea for your display -- but
read on.) This studio had paid attention to the market and has policies
that answer a lot of the "flame fest" issues here. For instance, they
always hand over the negatives. Take another look at the issues that
seem to punch the hot button of the brides here -- if you step back from
your own assumptions about what a professional photographer must/should
do to survive, prosper, and do good work, are there creative ways that
you can address any of these concerns? If you can (or already do), put
these features in writing!
I would love to see brides of several ages, ethnic backgrounds, and
styles of weddings -- something more than the generic "WASP bride with
high cheekbones in big floaty dress."
Phares
Hopefully brides selecting their photographers will take note of what
I'm
about to say. The giving you the negative thing is probably not what
you
think it is. Here is whats really going on. Photography is a pretty
competitive market. Giving away the negatives is an easy way to attract
brides into booking them. Photographers that offer this are doing
several
things...most likely you aren't getting an album with the package...the
photographer wants to get in and get out of this job...you'll have your
pictures and negs in a week or so...no time consuming tasks of
production
work on photographers part..only expense is film and processing.
The other issue is more troubling. See all good photographers know that
a good deal of their income will come from re-orders and of course with
you owning the negs you won't be doing that. I can say with certain
that
the photographers that give the negs will not be as professional at
posing
people just right, using 2nd lighting for fill, custom filters and the
list
goes on. These folks have spent years and attend seminars refining
their
skills. You will not pay that photographer $1 more after the wedding.
Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
No! but if negs are not offered for sale you absolutely will order them.
If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
Professional
labs print from this type of negs...they are very difficult to find and
when
you do you'll discover they probably wont print them for you anyway.
They
need to be carded individualy for cropping in which case you wouldn't
even
have the cards.
Another issue is that photographers ability to have access to his/her
own
creative work which if you take the negs he/she's giving you their
display
material...but like I was saying those photographers don't mind because
they rarely take the time to get truly great shots anyway.
Just thought I'd throw out my 2 cents worth.
SPECTRUM
Well this is certainly one perspective. While I haven't generally sold the
negatives in the past, I am considering doing it in the future. Actually
I'm offering a package where we shoot the wedding normally and hand the
bride all of the color film at the end of the day. There is a local lab
that many of the pro's use which is quite capable of processing and
enlaging any film short of 4X5 sheet film.
At first most photographers will think I'm nuts, but I'm tired of working
in the darkroom(I custom print all of my albums) or giving 35% of my sales
to the labs. Plus and ordering/stocking/expense of albums, matts, pages and
everything else. Not to mention the hassle of getting the brides order
straight, placing all of the negs onto crop cards and trying to keep the
lab straight.
How much is this "package" ? I'm thinking that $550 will be a reasonable
starting point for 150-180 frames of film.
--
Regards,
John & Karen Douglas
Spectrum Photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
MARRIED OCTOBER 29TH '97 !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Phares <rpv...@home.com> wrote in article <34DBB7E8...@home.com>...
SPECTRUM
Well I'm open to suggestions. Obviously what I'm after is a affordable and
profitable package where everyone gets what they want and my young brides
as well as the second timers can all feel like they aren't getting run
through the ringer and I won't have to spend an entire day in the darkroom.
And if they take them to the pro-lab I send them to there should be now
real problem anyway.
Not to mention paying the cost for those albums ! I sure wish the
manufacturers would get a clue. We have enough expenses without equipment
being built like crap and supplies and advertising going up at about
10%/year.
Heck, I'm thinking about designing a camera and having one of my machist
friends make it. For the $12,K that I payed for the 645 Pro I bet I could
do a lot better with something I built ! A homade version of the RB67 with
LF lenses on Graflex boards(sound familiar ? Mamiya Press ). Look out
Mamiya !
--
Regards,
John & Karen Douglas
Spectrum Photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
MARRIED OCTOBER 29TH '97 !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
John or Jenn <las...@worldnet.att.net.removethis> wrote in article
<6bhbq9$r...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> In article <01bd33ad$d713cdc0$8640c7d0@SPECTRUM> SPECTRUM,
> SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com writes:
> >Actually
> >I'm offering a package where we shoot the wedding normally and hand the
> >bride all of the color film at the end of the day. There is a local lab
> >that many of the pro's use which is quite capable of processing and
> >enlaging any film short of 4X5 sheet film.
>
> Where this will bite you is when the customer takes the film to the
> local 1-hour lab (rather than the one you suggest) and has them poorly
> printed (18% Neutral Gray on everything), then shows them around
> (with them looking like crap) and telling everyone that you did the
> work...been there, done that, wonšt do it again...
>
SPECTRUM
How about brides of the net ? I'm asking for an opinion from you about
what you think a budget oriented package should run. Keep in mind that I
have about $4400/month in expenses to meet. And that's an absolute minimum.
Like you once my wife and I have a family our expenses will probably get
pretty high.
Give us some suggestions on what you really want and lets see if we can
actually start a creative and constrctive thread regarding photographing a
wedding.
-
Regards,
John & Karen Douglas
Spectrum Photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
MARRIED OCTOBER 29TH '97 !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
SPECTRUM <SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com> wrote in article
<01bd33b8$f7648140$8640c7d0@SPECTRUM>...
> Well I'm open to suggestions. Obviously what I'm after is a affordable
and
> profitable package where everyone gets what they want and my young brides
> as well as the second timers can all feel like they aren't getting run
> through the ringer and I won't have to spend an entire day in the
darkroom.
> And if they take them to the pro-lab I send them to there should be now
> real problem anyway.
> Not to mention paying the cost for those albums ! I sure wish the
> manufacturers would get a clue. We have enough expenses without equipment
> being built like crap and supplies and advertising going up at about
> 10%/year.
> Heck, I'm thinking about designing a camera and having one of my machist
> friends make it. For the $12,K that I payed for the 645 Pro I bet I could
> do a lot better with something I built ! A homade version of the RB67
with
> LF lenses on Graflex boards(sound familiar ? Mamiya Press ). Look out
> Mamiya !
> --
> Regards,
>
> John & Karen Douglas
> Spectrum Photographic Inc.
> http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
> MARRIED OCTOBER 29TH '97 !!
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> John or Jenn <las...@worldnet.att.net.removethis> wrote in article
> <6bhbq9$r...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
> > In article <01bd33ad$d713cdc0$8640c7d0@SPECTRUM> SPECTRUM,
> > SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com writes:
> > >Actually
> > >I'm offering a package where we shoot the wedding normally and hand
the
> > >bride all of the color film at the end of the day. There is a local
lab
> > >that many of the pro's use which is quite capable of processing and
> > >enlaging any film short of 4X5 sheet film.
> >
Fotoman
Wedding album question. I tried a little promo where I knocked the wedding
album out of the package. I offered the wedding albums at my cost +
shipping (not a penny profit). I would even assemble the album. Guess how
many brides took this offer.... ZERO.
I even showed them a cheap album (from dept. store) and what might happen to
photos in a few years, "oh thats awful...." but still no albums sold at
cost. In fact they about fell off the chair when they saw the cost. Most
of them said I'll go to __ Mart and get an album. They all booked me for
their wedding, but w/o album. (I did thorw in a cheap proof book)
My question is, for those of you who do a lot of weddings, do you offer only
the better albums or do you offer lower end albums as well?
(if there are any offending comments in this post, I apologize in advance).
Karen Simmons
John,
I might suggest that this is a better topic for alt.wedding.marketplace,
the rec.photo.* groups, or for one of the many Pro photography mailing
lists.
If you're asking the question of the brides, it would be appropriate
(maybe) for here. Otherwise, this is the kind of stuff that the couples
on this group tend to get upset about and see as very thinly veiled ads
(whether that's the way you meant it or not).
Regards,
karen
Fotoman wrote:
>
> Wedding album question. I tried a little promo where I knocked the
> wedding
> album out of the package. I offered the wedding albums at my cost +
> shipping (not a penny profit). I would even assemble the album.
> Guess how
> many brides took this offer.... ZERO.
>
> I even showed them a cheap album (from dept. store) and what might
> happen to
> photos in a few years, "oh thats awful...." but still no albums sold
> at
> cost. In fact they about fell off the chair when they saw the cost.
> Most
> of them said I'll go to __ Mart and get an album. They all booked me
> for
> their wedding, but w/o album. (I did thorw in a cheap proof book)
>
> My question is, for those of you who do a lot of weddings, do you
> offer only
> the better albums or do you offer lower end albums as well?
>
> (if there are any offending comments in this post, I apologize in
> advance).
--
Fotoman
Ok, thanks Karen. I dont get into the newsgroups often. I dont see much
happening in the alt.wedding.marketplace.
Karen Simmons wrote in message <34DC9ADF...@mindspring.com>...
SPECTRUM
There sure isn't. I'm not even sure more than a couple of brides have
looked at it.
About the albums, we offer only Art Leather as I feel that anythng we sell
we ought to warrantee as well. Art Leather albums are the only ones that I
know of that have passed the Photo Activities Test (PAT) which was designed
to insure that albums and photographic mounting supplies weren't actually
harmful towards the very photographs that they are supposed to protect. It
was found that many albums have glues and plastics in their bindings and
pages that will release some small amount of gases as they age. Being in
close proximity to the photographs and the whole bunch being enclosed in a
end table drawer is a worst case scenario. The prints would turn reddish in
as little as 7 years. As you are aware the negatives aren't usually sold to
the bride and its not very likely that the photographer would still have
them after a 7 year period.
Of course in 7 years we'll all be digital anyway !
--
Regards,
John & Karen Douglas
Spectrum Photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
MARRIED OCTOBER 29TH '97 !!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Fotoman <fo...@grapher.com> wrote in article
<34dca...@news.busprod.com>...
> Ok, thanks Karen. I dont get into the newsgroups often. I dont see much
> happening in the alt.wedding.marketplace.
>
> Karen Simmons wrote in message <34DC9ADF...@mindspring.com>...
Donna Lee
On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Phares wrote:
<deleted>
> skills. You will not pay that photographer $1 more after the wedding.
> Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
> No! but if negs are not offered for sale you absolutely will order them.
> If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
> you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
I have a hard time understanding how this reasoning justifies the practice
of not giving clients the negatives. Are you saying that if a
photographer hangs on to the negatives, he can force the clients to order
prints from him whether the pictures are good or bad? I think that if the
clients do not like the proofs, they will not order more prints, no matter
who owns the negatives. I'm not sure if this is what you meant to say,
but if it is, you are saying it to the wrong crowd. If you want to
convice brides not to want the negatives, you'll have to come up with more
than "you won't have use for them anyway because only special labs can
print them".
By the way, we are getting our negatives on the 1 year anniversary. So
what does this say about our photographer?
Donna (& Eric)
5/30/98
Nathan Shafer
Donna Lee wrote:
>
> Phares wrote:
>
> > You will not pay that photographer $1 more after the wedding.
> > Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
> > No! but if negs are not offered for sale you absolutely will order
> > them. If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you
> > own the negs you still wont.
>
> can force the clients to order prints from him whether the pictures
> are good or bad? I think that if the clients do not like the proofs,
> they will not order more prints, no matter who owns the negatives.
Hi Donna,
(Great name, btw - Donna Lee. Ever listen to any Charlie Parker?)
Just to clarify, I think Phares was saying that the hope of resale
will generally drive a photographer who retains the negs to get better
shots. Without that hope of reprint sales, a photographer who parts
with the negs will not have as much of an incentive to get great shots.
This is not a philosophy I agree with, btw.
Nathan Shafer, Alpenglow Photography
http://home.earthlink.net/~shafers
Photographic Artistry Nationwide: Weddings, Portraits, Nature & Wildlife
John Stallings
Clipped:
> Here is whats really going on. Photography is a pretty
>competitive market. Giving away the negatives is an easy way to attract
>brides into booking them. Photographers that offer this are doing
>several
>things...most likely you aren't getting an album with the package...the
>photographer wants to get in and get out of this job...you'll have your
>pictures and negs in a week or so...no time consuming tasks of
>production
>work on photographers part..only expense is film and processing.
>The other issue is more troubling. See all good photographers know that
>a good deal of their income will come from re-orders and of course with
>you owning the negs you won't be doing that. I can say with certain
>that
>the photographers that give the negs will not be as professional at
>posing
>people just right, using 2nd lighting for fill, custom filters and the
>list
>goes on. These folks have spent years and attend seminars refining
>their
>skills. You will not pay that photographer $1 more after the wedding.
>Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
>No! but if negs are not offered for sale you absolutely will order them.
>If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
>you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
>Professional
>labs print from this type of negs...they are very difficult to find and
>when
>you do you'll discover they probably wont print them for you anyway.
>They
>need to be carded individualy for cropping in which case you wouldn't
>even
>have the cards.
>Another issue is that photographers ability to have access to his/her
>own
>creative work which if you take the negs he/she's giving you their
>display
>material...but like I was saying those photographers don't mind because
>they rarely take the time to get truly great shots anyway.
>Just thought I'd throw out my 2 cents worth.
This is just plain bullshit! I run a *very* high-end studio, both in
terms of quality *and* price -- and I provide all the negatives for a
mere $100, immediately after getting all the prints for the album back
from my lab. And I *do not* lose any reorders. Exactly how I manage to
do that without losing reorders is not something I'm anxious to share
with other photographers, but I will say that it was not particularly
difficult to figure out.
Further, *any* lab which deals both with pros and with amatuers will
be more than willing to help a bride print from medium format
negatives. Dunno where *you* live, but there must be twenty or so labs
within a ten mile radius of my studio which could do the job.
*The* guiding principal behind our studio is serving the brides and
grooms. The SBA says that 85% of the B&Gs passionately want their
negatives, while 97% of the studios will not provide them -- period.
Doesn't exactly sound like serving the bride and groom, does it?
BTW, we *do* use double lighting, *and* special filters. We also
*always* shoot with two photographers on the team -- one shooting and
one as assistant (not just some flunky as an assistant). And we have
face-to-face planning meetings. And we attend rehearsals. And we win
*lots* of awards for our work.
John
Stallings & Stallings
Jo...@WedArt.Com
www.WedArt.com
Michael Quack
SPECTRUM <SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com> schrieb im Beitrag
<01bd33ad$d713cdc0$8640c7d0@SPECTRUM>...
> I'm offering a package where we shoot the wedding normally and hand the
> bride all of the color film at the end of the day.
and mark them as such. Never hand over unprocessed film.
> There is a local lab that many of the pro's use which is quite
> capable of processing and enlaging any film short of 4X5 sheet film.
Which is excellent advice to tell the client for reorders.
> At first most photographers will think I'm nuts, but I'm tired of working
> in the darkroom(I custom print all of my albums) or giving 35% of my
sales
> to the labs.
Righto.
> Plus and ordering/stocking/expense of albums, matts, pages and
> everything else. Not to mention the hassle of getting the brides order
> straight, placing all of the negs onto crop cards and trying to keep the
> lab straight.
Oh great, and salted liquorice for 50 cents, please.....
> How much is this "package" ? I'm thinking that $550 will be a reasonable
> starting point for 150-180 frames of film.
I rather charge for my time plus expenses. I don't need to check how
many films I used, or worry about my profit when I shoot a little more
than scheduled. The client is also more comfortable knowing that you
don't make extra money for shooting more footage.
--
Michael Quack
(Photo...@aol.com)
Website: <http://members.aol.com/photoquack/index.htm>
Fashion, Beauty, Newswork, Nude, Industry and more
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Michael Quack
Phares <rpv...@home.com> schrieb im Beitrag
<34DBB7E8...@home.com>...
> The giving you the negative thing is probably not what you
> brides into booking them.
Also it is a decision not to work as a printer/productioner.
selling printing reorders is like selling candy by the dozen to me.
I am mainly a photographer, not a darkroom hand.
The money I can make per darkroom working hour is much less
than my shooting fee.
> Photographers that offer this are doing several things...
> most likely you aren't getting an album with the package...
Not necessarily so. I provide an album if the client asks for it, and
I regularly offer one. Very often the clients already have one
prepared on their own before even looking for a photographer over here.
> the photographer wants to get in and get out of this job...
Approximately. If I preferred darkroom work, I would be a local lab
owner rather than a photographer.
> you'll have your pictures and negs in a week or so...
Right. I can kick ass at my lab in order to speed things up.
Very often I can deliver the day after the wedding on weekdays.
> no time consuming tasks of production work on photographers part..
That's right.
> only expense is film and processing.
You have that too, when processing and printing or filing print
orders yourself.
> The other issue is more troubling. See all good photographers know that
> a good deal of their income will come from re-orders and of course with
> you owning the negs you won't be doing that.
That is if you are restricted to weddings and portraits exclusively.
Doing commercials as well, you will find that there is not much
room for darkroom work.
> I can say with certain that the photographers that give the negs
> will not be as professional at posing people just right, using 2nd
> lighting for fill, custom filters and the list goes on.
This is pure bull. Deciding about your offered product and service range
does not influence technical and artistic capabilities.
> You will not pay that photographer $1 more after the wedding.
That is right.
> Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
Of course. Bad pictures are bad advertisement, and if you want to
find new clients or have old clients come back, you better haul ass and
make sure that the stuff you sell is perfect.
> No! but if negs are not offered for sale you absolutely will order them.
> If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
> you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
Only if the client orders so. Else I use 35mm, with good results.
> Professional labs print from this type of negs...they are very
> difficult to find
Not here in my town. There are nearly twenty pro labs, and numerous
big finishers delivering very good quality for a start.
> and when you do you'll discover they probably wont print them
> for you anyway. They need to be carded individualy for cropping
> in which case you wouldn't even have the cards.
All the labs I know take their instructions written plain text as well,
or marked on a contact sheet, even Xerox copies of contact sheets.
If they require special cards to be used, they'll be glad to supply
everyone with them. Remember, they want to sell their service !
And as far as cropping is concerned, if you know your job well,
there is little need for cropping. Selling work the advertising shooters
way (your fee plus expenses) allows to shoot more without need
to recalculate with every click. You can make sure to have all the
guests also as portraits singled out on film.
Cropping is a result of the photographer not being at the right
position on time, or guests the photographer failed to shoot single.
If you need to crop, you generally have delivered second choice already.
> Another issue is that photographers ability to have access to
> his/her own creative work which if you take the negs he/she's
> giving you their display material...
The first line of prints is organized by me, or sometimes I even
print them in my own darkroom, if time permits. I can easily
produce two prints at a time and keep a duplicate or make
dupe negs if I think I need one. You have to talk to the couple
about the release anyway, if you want to put the stuff on display.
Anyway, I do this wedding work only as ahook to sell more of my
regular work. I always carry little booklets holding some of my
pictures to hand out to interested people.
On weddings all the old fart relatives and many guests show up.
Some of them will be owners of a business in need of advertisement.
You always can make contacts that will lead to advertisement
assignments. Doing your job professionally perfect and being a
nice person yourself is already half the assignment.
> but like I was saying those photographers don't mind because
> they rarely take the time to get truly great shots anyway.
This is nothing but your assumption. Anyone doing this job
in order to make a living of it will make sure to deliver the best
work he can do. Otherwise you will be out of the job very soon.
> Just thought I'd throw out my 2 cents worth.
Sounds too expensive.....
John or Jenn
In article <34DE2887...@rickmartin.com> Rick Martin,
ri...@rickmartin.com writes:
>"plain cheap"? Karen, why must you refer to people like this.
Hey Rick...why do you scan all of Karen零 posts looking for things
you can snip out then make negative comments about Karen? You靶e
been doing this for a month or more...is that something you learned
from PPA?
Rick Martin
John or Jenn wrote:
There is nothing negative about Karen in my post! I simply asked a
question about her remark.
--
Rick Martin,Photographer
Lt Governor, Northern District
Virginia Professional Photographers Assoc
http://www.rickmartin.com Manassas,Va
Amy Szczepanski
On 7 Feb 1998, SPECTRUM wrote:
> Give us some suggestions on what you really want and lets see if we can
> actually start a creative and constrctive thread regarding photographing a
> wedding.
> -
Ok... what I find to be good ideas in general...
1. Always be polite, professional, and efficient. People who can't tell
good photography from bad may make their judgements based on attitude.
2. Don't threaten that Bad Things Will Happen if the couple chooses a
less professional option. Be like the diamond people in the phone
book--the ones who will teach the customer how to make an informed
decision. Point out what separates a good photo from a great one.
Explain why the film you prefer to use is best suited for the job. Etc.
3. Some formal/posed shots might be better done the DAY before the
wedding. This is especially true if the couple wants these specific
shots just to have a nice photograph of certain relatives. This may
limit the amount of precious "saturday-time" the wedding requires.
4. The whole negatives/reprints issue makes people crazy. Something's
got to give. Start thinking now about what the best answer is for you.
Ok, now it's the next person's turn to be positive. I'm going back to
thinking about tulle.
-AmySz
ps. How many of you make up a proof of a portrait printed mirror-image?
I remember reading somewhere that people think they look better that
way because that's how they see themselves in the mirror!
Phares
>
> This is just plain bullshit! I run a *very* high-end studio, both in
> terms of quality *and* price -- and I provide all the negatives for a
> mere $100, immediately after getting all the prints for the album back
> from my lab. And I *do not* lose any reorders. Exactly how I manage to
> do that without losing reorders is not something I'm anxious to share
> with other photographers, but I will say that it was not particularly
> difficult to figure out.
>
> Further, *any* lab which deals both with pros and with amatuers will
> be more than willing to help a bride print from medium format
> negatives. Dunno where *you* live, but there must be twenty or so labs
> within a ten mile radius of my studio which could do the job.
I live in San Diego. A heavily populated city, right?
Many photographers here. The last professional lab in San Diego
quit printing 2 1/4 for non-professionals here last year.
There are probably 10 professional labs in San Diego. I didn't
include Wal-Mart when I was referring to professional labs...
sorry bout that.
>
> *The* guiding principal behind our studio is serving the brides and
> grooms. The SBA says that 85% of the B&Gs passionately want their
> negatives, while 97% of the studios will not provide them -- period.
> Doesn't exactly sound like serving the bride and groom, does it?
>
> BTW, we *do* use double lighting, *and* special filters. We also
> *always* shoot with two photographers on the team -- one shooting and
> one as assistant (not just some flunky as an assistant). And we have
> face-to-face planning meetings. And we attend rehearsals. And we win
> *lots* of awards for our work.
How? You're selling off any record that you even did the work on
that wedding..can't do a reprint of something you don't have.
Phares
Phares
Donna Lee wrote:
>
> On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Phares wrote:
>
> <deleted>
>
> > Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
> > If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
> > you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
>
> photographer hangs on to the negatives, he can force the clients to order
> prints from him whether the pictures are good or bad? I think that if the
> clients do not like the proofs, they will not order more prints, no matter
> but if it is, you are saying it to the wrong crowd. If you want to
> convice brides not to want the negatives, you'll have to come up with more
> than "you won't have use for them anyway because only special labs can
> print them".
>
> By the way, we are getting our negatives on the 1 year anniversary. So
> what does this say about our photographer?
>
> Donna (& Eric)
> 5/30/98
No, not at all Donna. I'm implying that when a photographer is
realizing
that his reorders depend largely on how good his results will be, then
he is motivated at providing you with everything he knows to accomplish
this. Of course clients can't be forced into purchasing anything,
however,
if there is only one of something and it's only okay, then it's still
purchased. I'm not trying to convince brides to not want
negatives...it's
fine if they do. I'm trying to point out that there are other issues
that go along with that. You are getting your negatives on your 1 year
anniversary. This is very common and after one year most reorder sales
have taken place. Yes, a good deal of a Photographers income comes from
reorders, no mystery here.
Phares
Hehehe...good one. Anyway, you confirmed a lot of what I've said
anyway. For example, if you need to crop, you've delivered second
choice anyway....uhmm, what if the client wants a 5x7 or 11x14 from
your square format neg.
>
SoccerStepMom
Phares wrote:
>
> Donna Lee wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Phares wrote:
> >
> > <deleted>
> >
> > > Does he/she care really if your pictures are the best he/she can do.
> > > If they are not that great, you probably will not! If you own the negs
> > > you still wont. Why? Because they use a medium format camera.
> >
Um, couldn't some photographers be motivated to do a good job by the
prospect of referrals, as are florists, caterers, sites and other
vendors whose income from the couple ends after the wedding? SSM
Phares
They very well could. I believe that with few exceptions any
photographer will do the best he or she can. Packages that include
prints and negatives only with no production afterwards allows that
photographer to do a great deal more weddings per year. A lot more.
Infact they will need to do more because they wont be making as much on
the package. The market is very large for this. There are 52 saturdays
a year and a photographer offering this kind of package with low prices
will be swamped. At least in my area. The motive for going above and
beyond in posing etc. is not there. No additional bookings are possible
and no additional sales are possible. By contrast, next time you attend
a bridal show with multiple photographers, walk around and look at the
displays. It should take two seconds to decide that "wow" now that
photographer is doing incredible work. Then pick up the brochure and
look at the packages. Prices are likely to be a little more to a lot
more, which who knows how to better price their services than
themselves. You probably won't find that package there either.
Phares
>
> Ok... what I find to be good ideas in general...
>
> 1. Always be polite, professional, and efficient. People who can't tell
> good photography from bad may make their judgements based on attitude.
>
> 2. Don't threaten that Bad Things Will Happen if the couple chooses a
> less professional option. Be like the diamond people in the phone
> book--the ones who will teach the customer how to make an informed
> decision. Point out what separates a good photo from a great one.
> Explain why the film you prefer to use is best suited for the job. Etc.
>
> 3. Some formal/posed shots might be better done the DAY before the
> wedding. This is especially true if the couple wants these specific
> shots just to have a nice photograph of certain relatives. This may
> limit the amount of precious "saturday-time" the wedding requires.
>
> 4. The whole negatives/reprints issue makes people crazy. Something's
> got to give. Start thinking now about what the best answer is for you.
>
> Ok, now it's the next person's turn to be positive. I'm going back to
> thinking about tulle.
>
> -AmySz
>
> ps. How many of you make up a proof of a portrait printed mirror-image?
> I remember reading somewhere that people think they look better that
> way because that's how they see themselves in the mirror!
Here is a suggestion for a mirror shot we've done. It's a double
exposure. First take a picture of you in the clothes you arrieved to the
church in, looking in the mirror of the dressing room. Must be a large
mirrior or wide I should say. The image of yourself in the mirror
itself when taken is blocked out by a filter that splits the image in
the middle. Then get your dress on and take the shot again only
reversing the filter so that it exposes only the area in the mirror.
The result is you looking at yourself in the mirror with usual clothes
but in the mirror you've got your dress on.
Next positive input: Yes, deciding to have your portraits taken the day
before the wedding or deciding to see each other on the wedding day and
doing portraits together well before your ceremony time will all your
photographer to get the best results. You will be more relaxed and I
think you'd find it an enjoyable time together. Probably the only time
you'll be alone all day really. Certainly it's okay to not see each
other beforehand but time is of the essence on the wedding day, so
provisions for photography time is important. Does anyone know how the
tradition of the Groom not seeing his bride before the wedding? I think
it may surprise a few of you.
Greg McGonagill
Referrals make the business go.
Greg McGonagill
infr...@blarg.net
-----
Greg McGonagill Wedding Photography
Seattle - Tacoma, Washington
http://www.blarg.net/~infrared/wedding.htm
------
Jon Penner
I give away the negatives and the way I help solve the problem of the
clients getting poorly processed reprints is by telling them that if
they do not turn out like the originals they need to have the lab redo
them (usually even cheap labs will do this for free). Actually many
labs ( at least in my small town, Flagstaff, AZ) consider redos as no
charge for the reprints at all.
Jenetta Penner
J and J Photography
Making Your Memories Into Great Photography
steve....@usa.net
One of the main themes of this thread has been the benefits of giving brides
the negatives. Susan and I were married in Virginia and we are living in
California. Since we have the negatives we are going to be able to assemble
our album and our parents' albums the way we would like to have them and we
can assemble the album when we can afford it. Our photographer, Glen New,
has a very organized way of providing the negatives and has arranged a
discount with a very reputable lab, Richmond Camera (which we may or may not
use due to shipping cost and inconvenience). I would like to get information
on where to get quality photo albums (and how to tell the difference) without
paying more than necessary. I would welcome E-mail on this subject from
people who perhaps are uncomfortable about posting this type of information
to what I consider a overly hostile newsgroup (alt.wedding). Thank you,
Steve Cerruti
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Marnie McCoy
How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
$3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
the negatives...
Marnie
In article <6d7ppp$5dd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, steve....@usa.net
says...
S. Self
I have found TWO photographers that let you keep the negatives!
I live in the Seattle area... write me if you want the names and phone
numbers.
SS
sks...@u.washington.edu
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Marnie McCoy wrote:
> How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
> I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
> $3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
> the negatives...
> Marnie
>
>
> In article <6d7ppp$5dd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, steve....@usa.net
> says...
> > One of the main themes of this thread has been the benefits of giving brides
> > the negatives.Susan and I were married in Virginia and we are living in
> > California. Since we have thenegatives we are going to be able to assemble
> > our album and our parents' albums theway we would like to have them and we
> > can assemble the album when we can afford it.Our photographer, Glen New,
> > has a very organized way of providing the negatives andhas arranged a
> > discount with a very reputable lab, Richmond Camera (which we may ormay not
> > use due to shipping cost and inconvenience).I would like to get information
> > on where to get quality photo albums (and how to tell thedifference) without
> > paying more than necessary. I would welcome E-mail on this subjectfrom
> > people who perhaps are uncomfortable about posting this type of information
> > to whatI consider a overly hostile newsgroup (alt.wedding).Thank you,
WedPix Inc
>
>How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
>I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
>$3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
>the negatives...
We release all the original prints and negatives to our clients. We have
noticed that a lot of them bring back their negatives to be printed by us,
though. A lot of people will take the negatives to a local one hour place and
then don't understand why the prints they got don't look as good as the ones
that came from our professional lab so they ask us to make their prints for
them.
People also don't know how to store or handle negatives so we see a lot of
scratched or damaged negatives that people want us to fix and we can't.
Oh, and $10 is not an unreasonable price for a professional quality reprint.
Our professional lab charges us about $3 just for the print. Some places have
their prints textured or sprayed and that costs even more. Not to mention the
time of the photographer to do all the work to get the negative ready to be
printed.
Anyway, I'm new to the board and I didn't know if it would be appropriate to
post an ad. Is it ok that I responded to this question?
WedPix
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Affordable, no-frills wedding photography
http://members.aol.com/wedpixinc
Elizabeth
Dear Marnie,
Keep looking and I am sure you will find a photographer willing to sell
you the negatives. The Pro Labs charge me almost $3.00 for a 4x5 or 4x6
print. If you do get your negatives make sure that whatever lab you use does
not send out to have work done as this greatly increases the odds of
problems. Also provide them with the proof print and ask them to match the
color and density (assuming of course that you like the color and density).
Jane Elizabeth Evenson Photography
http://home.pacbell.net/evenson/
eve...@pacbell.net
Marnie McCoy wrote in message ...
>How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
>I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
>$3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
>the negatives...
>Marnie
>
>>
LeeEtta66
I'm probably asking for it but here goes:
I'm getting married at Vatican City,Rome,Italy. I have no choice of who my
photographer or videographer will be but that's not my problem. They have to be
Vatican "approved" so I understand. My question is who do I take my negatives
and proofs to to get developed? I don't want a one hour lab but I don't want to
pay a small fortune either. I also want a nice album to put the photos in, like
Art Leather. Would a photographer be willing to sell me prints and an album
only and how do I find one?
Please let's not get a flame war going, thanks in advance.
Lee Etta(5/26/98)
RShrader 1
>How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
>I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
>$3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
>the negatives...
>Marnie
Sorry to hear of your problem. I include the negatives in all of my packages. I
do charge a little bit more than some shooters but I also and primarilly am a
news photographer so keeping the negatives is not something I want to do. I
also have found that most of my clients come back to me for enlargements anyway
so I haven't lost much for it, if they don't come back for enlargements I am
happy to refer them to the same lab I use, I do ask them to mention my name at
the lab so they get a discount and the lab is happy and continues to extend me
a discount.
Bob Shrader
BlkHatWhtDog
That is the problem with photographers who give negatives with the stack
of proofs, limited access to albums, and no help at all on planning and
organizing an album. This is more work than the wedding photography
itself, IMHO, and I make my living this way. The wedding photographer
who gives away the negatives makes almost as much money overall, with out
the time involved in the album, and the headache of figuring out w;hich
pictures goes where, and this is not merely a matter of putting them in
chronological order. You want some bigger right.
put the images in some kind of chronological order, removing only the
obviously bad one, though you probably did that long ago, separate these
order by themes. What I mean by themes is, if there are photos of the
bride and her folks at her house before the wedding, then they would be
on top of the stack chronologically, but you sort that by bride's
portraits, bride and parents, (1 bride and mom posing for camea, 2
hugging, 3kissing, bride and dad 4 posed, 5 hugging, 6 kissing, bride
with both parents, mom and dad without the bride.) then the siblings,
then the whole family, {and your photographer probably didn't do many of
these, though I find these portraits to be the most precious and in the
years to come, most important.) and on to the brides'maids, flower ring
kids, grandma and other relatives etc.
The number of images for a particular theme often suggests the
appropriate size for them, so each theme will have a two page spread in
the album. So you select two of bride and mom, one of bride and dad. So
the suggested flow for this theme could be, two proof size images of
bride and mom, with a medium 5x7 of dad on the left side of the spread
with an 8x10 of bride with mom and dad next to it, or mom's photos could
be two five by sevens with dad's as an 8x10 opposite, with all three plus
the nice portrait of just mom and dad as 8x10's on the next spread.
so on and so on.
There is an album company in New York called Capri, 800 666-6653, they
make very very nice albums, custom made, leather with real gold gilding.
Call them and tell them you are a begining photographer and get their
start up kit. order your own album.
most regular albums must be wholesaled, requiring that you purchase
packets of pages in sets of ten or twelve, which is fine except you might
only need one or two of a particular combination page. Most good quality
albums will cost from a hundred up to two, but then you also get lots of
extra pages and pages that you have left over for the next 'client.'
Capri albums start at $120 for a flush mounted book with 24 8x10 verticle
images and go up like an elevator when you get into multi-size prints,
and skyrocket when you start thinking about panorama pages, (really
cool.)
SPECTRUM
Actually we've been trying to push a package where the bride
would get the negatives and proofs and pay me $600 as a "creative
services fee". Unfortunately all of the brides want an album, extra
enlargements and so on and aren't even considering a no-album package.
What am I doing wrong ?
Regards,
John S. Douglas
Spectrum Photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:22:33 -0500, aka...@the-spa.com (Marnie McCoy)
wrote:
>How did you ever find a photographer that will give up the negatives???
>I found that none I have spoken to do this and they charge anywhere from
>$3.50 up to $10 each for reprints of 4x6 photos! I would love to have
>the negatives...
>Marnie
>
>
>In article <6d7ppp$5dd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, steve....@usa.net
>says...
>> One of the main themes of this thread has been the benefits of giving brides
>> the negatives.Susan and I were married in Virginia and we are living in
>> California. Since we have thenegatives we are going to be able to assemble
>> our album and our parents' albums theway we would like to have them and we
>> can assemble the album when we can afford it.Our photographer, Glen New,
>> has a very organized way of providing the negatives andhas arranged a
>> discount with a very reputable lab, Richmond Camera (which we may ormay not
>> use due to shipping cost and inconvenience).I would like to get information
>> on where to get quality photo albums (and how to tell thedifference) without
>> paying more than necessary. I would welcome E-mail on this subjectfrom
>> people who perhaps are uncomfortable about posting this type of information
>> to whatI consider a overly hostile newsgroup (alt.wedding).Thank you,
Wende Vyborney
SPECTRUM wrote:
>
> Actually we've been trying to push a package where the bride
> would get the negatives and proofs and pay me $600 as a "creative
> services fee". Unfortunately all of the brides want an album, extra
> enlargements and so on and aren't even considering a no-album package.
> What am I doing wrong ?
Talking to the wrong brides?
Seriously, I'm wondering if the $600 looks large when it's called
"creative services." My argument is not with the actual amount! One
wedding photography studio here charges by the hour (with a minimum fee)
then also by the number of shots or proofs or something like that (don't
have the brochure at hand). Albums are also extra. The hourly and proof
charges *quickly* add up to $600 for a wedding, but it looks more like a
bargain because there's that 10 minutes of thinking, "Wow, we could get
by for $350!" Then you actually add in what you want, and it's $600 or
so. Which is still a bargain... plus the Happy Couple has convinced
themselves that the price is worth it.
SPECTRUM
IMO, it's a very sensible approach. In fact it's how I handled
our wedding. I gave a friend of mine $500 and he handed me the film
after it was processed.
And if a B&G don't have $1700 which is my "normal" package,
they can get the same service the day of the wedding and come back to
me in a year with their negs in hand and we'll make them an album. you
see I custom print all of my photo's and it's a very time consuming
process. Not to mention the amount of time that my wife puts into
putting the album together and the cost of the album !
If I actually put an hourly amount on it, it would be around
$100/hour plus film, processing and travel. I still doubt if I'd get
that rate though. Not when anyone with a 35mm can blow off a couple of
roles for $100 and walk away with a smile.
Guess its time to head for greener pastures !
Regards,
John & Karen Douglas
Spectrum photographic Inc.
http://www.spectrumphoto.com SPEC...@spectrumphoto.com
<<<<<<< Married October 29th,1997 ! >>>>>>>
Karen Simmons
Wende Vyborney wrote:
[snip info about SPECTRUM's $600 package]
> One wedding photography studio here charges by the hour (with a
> minimum fee)then also by the number of shots or proofs or
> something like that (don't have the brochure at hand). Albums are
> also extra. The hourly and proof charges *quickly* add up to $600
> for a wedding, but it looks more like a bargain because there's
> that 10 minutes of thinking, "Wow, we could get by for $350!" Then
> you actually add in what you want, and it's $600 or so. Which is
> still a bargain... plus the Happy Couple has convinced
> themselves that the price is worth it.
Wow! Wende -- I'm really surprised to hear you advocating this type of
pricing. In the years I've been on these boards, I've heard so many
brides be angry about this kind of pricing; I've heard people liken it
to bait and switch, to cheating the client, all kinds of things. So
when a photographer says he's trying to be fair to the client and charge
a flat rate for everything, someone comes along and says: "try to trick
the client into thinking she's paying less and you'll book more".
Personally I think this kind of pricing -- where every single image is
extra and there's a charge for every letter imprinted on the album, etc.
-- is kinda sleazy. There's nothing wrong with a-la-carte pricing, but
nickle and diming the couple is horrible.
I guess it surprises me to hear someone on this board advocating that
method, especially after the flame wars that have been had on photog
prices.
REgards,
Karen
--
------------------------------
The DK Gallery
http://www.ks-photography.com
Atlanta, GA 404.233.1230
------------------------------
sheila bonfield
I would be so very pleased to find someone who would have a package like
that in Sacramento, California. My wedding is not until November 7,
1998 and I am having a terrible time finding a photographer to fit in
our budget. The hurdle that I keep running into is my fiancee. He
doesn't value photos like I do. I have tons of albums chronicling my
life. He, on te other hand, has one album that his mom put together for
him. He didn't even own a camera when we met. So, suffice it to say,
when we look at the costs of decent photographers, he almost dies. I am
between a rock and a hard place, I don't want crappy pictures on a very
important day. I would LOVE a package like those being mentioned. This
way, we could have the film developed and pictures enlarged as we could
afford it(or as I could "hide" it from him :-)
If anybody has any suggestions or knows of somebody in Sacramento Ca,
please let me know. Thanks -- Sheila
Greg McGonagill
I am a Seattle-area wedding photographer, and include negatives in my
wedding packages. I frequently work with out-of-town clients.
I recommend Rennaisance albums for ease of assembly; these can be bought
over the counter at a photo supply house. Call around and see who stocks
them in your area.
Greg McGonagill
infr...@blarg.net
Greg McGonagill Wedding Photography
Seattle- Tacoma, Washington
http://www.blarg.net/~infrared/wedding.htm
----
steve....@usa.net wrote in message <6d7ppp$5dd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...