Kerry comrades have credibility on their side
Craig
Kerry comrades have credibility on their side
By Scot Lehigh | August 20, 2004
YESTERDAY John Kerry decided to take the offensive over his Vietnam War
record. It's about time. For the last week or so, one has hardly been
able to turn on the television without encountering John O'Neill, the
public face of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, pronouncing Kerry a fraud
and flogging "Unfit for Command," the carpet-bombing book he has
co-authored about the Democratic nominee.
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Yesterday, as his campaign launched an ad defending his war record,
Kerry accused the group, which is funded in part by a wealthy Texas
Republican who has also given to George W. Bush, of being a front for
the Republican campaign.
"The fact that the president won't denounce them tells you everything
you need to know," Kerry said to a firefighters convention in Boston.
"He wants them to do his dirty work." And what work it has been. Now,
some Vietnam veterans remain livid at Kerry more than three decades
after his graphic 1971 assertions that atrocities had been widespread in
Vietnam.
But to see a prime example of the lengths O'Neill and his allies resort
to in their effort to discredit Kerry, take the claims "Unfit for
Command" makes about Kerry's first Purple Heart. Kerry received that
decoration for a small shrapnel wound to the arm incurred on the night
of Dec. 2, 1968, when he was patrolling in a skimmer -- a craft akin to
a Boston Whaler -- in a free-fire zone, looking for Viet Cong guerrillas.
Yes, there have been questions about whether the wound Kerry suffered
that night really merited a Purple Heart, though those decorations were
handed out rather liberally. But rather than quoting the two men known
to have accompanied Kerry on that mission, "Unfit for Command" asserts a
third person was along. William Schachte, later a rear admiral, "was
also on the skimmer," the book claims.
It offers this account: "After Kerry's M-16 jammed, Kerry picked up an
M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade too close, causing a tiny
piece of shrapnel . . . to barely stick in his arm. Schachte berated
Kerry for almost putting someone's eye out." Schachte could not be
reached for comment. But in a brief interview yesterday, O'Neill
asserted that Schachte had told him, as well as other military men, that
he had been on the skimmer.
"I spoke to Admiral Schachte," O'Neill said. "He places himself on the
skimmer." O'Neill also hinted that Schachte will soon address the issue
himself. So what do William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon, the two men
who were on the skimmer with Kerry at the time, say?
"Myself, Pat Runyon, and John Kerry," says Zaladonis, the engineman on
Kerry's first swift boat, "we were the only ones in the skimmer."
"There definitely was not a fourth," says Runyon. Though the two assume
they took hostile fire, both men acknowledge they aren't completely
certain. But they also firmly reject the claim that Kerry somehow
wounded himself by using an M-79 grenade launcher.
"I am reasonably sure we didn't have an M-79," Zaladonis said. "I didn't
see one. I don't remember it."
Runyon says the only weapons the trio had were an M-60 machine gun, two
M-16 combat rifles, and, possibly, a .45 caliber pistol. Is he 100
percent sure there wasn't an M-79 grenade launcher in the boat?
"I wouldn't say 100 percent, but I know 100 percent certain that we
didn't shoot them," replies Runyon. He does remember Kerry having
trouble with his M-16. "His gun jammed or he ran out of ammunition -- I
don't know which -- but he bent down to pick up the other M-16," he says.
Zaladonis, who was manning the machine gun, recalls Kerry telling him to
redirect his fire to another area. "If we got return fire, I am not
sure," he said. But he adds that there's one thing he does know: "I know
that John got hurt." And not by shrapnel from a grenade launcher.
This incident crystallizes the epistemological issue at play in the
larger controversy: Whom does it make sense to believe, the men who
served and fought in close company with Kerry and who back his
Navy-certified record? Or the veterans who didn't actually serve under
Kerry and who, admittedly angry over his subsequent antiwar activities,
are now trying to discredit him? To ask that question is to answer it.
And in this case, until there is clear and compelling evidence to the
contrary, any fair-minded person has to credit the account offered by
Zaladonis and Runyon.
--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you
can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush,—Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Buck
PLONK!!
"Craig" <sun...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:2on5q3F...@uni-berlin.de...
> "There's an old saying in Tennessee悠 know it's in Texas, probably in
> Tennessee葉hat says, fool me once, shame on耀hame on you. Fool me遥ou
> can't get fooled again."
> George W. Bush,湧ashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Carrie@votebush.com John Carrie
Craig
> BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
>
> PLONK!!
>
>
way cool - another head in the dirt and ass in the air ;-)
--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you
can't get fooled again."
Craig
Lessee - someone posts what repudiates a book so you spam the book.
Cool.
Herb Martin
#3 Debut on the NY Times best seller list
#1 on Amazon
#1 on Barnes and Noble
If you haven't read the book, AND checked the references, it would
be intellectually dishonest to vote for Kerry.
Get the facts -- compare Kerry's various versions of "Christmas
in Cambodia" released after the book released.
Unfit for Command:
Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260174
Don't let anyone tell you WHAT to believe -- work it out for yourself.
Read the book and THEN DECIDE on the FACTS.
Jaberwokie
but simply believe that Kerry can do no wrong and 64 men that served
with him are liars.
Herb Martin
news:2on5q3F...@uni-berlin.de...
Yes, and every time they speak they out him further which is
why the Kerry campaign crew is kept under wraps.
Rassmann is now claiming "35 year memory fades" or attacking
personalities when asked DIRECT questions about "enemy fire"
or "which boats left" that day.
Sandusky outed Kerry's campaign "movie" lie by admitting that
the Kerry boat was the ONLY ONE which left while trying to
EXPLAIN WHY it left while ALL the other boats stayed to
rescue the 3-Boat and those in the water. (oops!)
And NONE of Kerry's campaign crew will claim to have been
spent "Christmas '68 FIVE miles inside Cambodia" being shot at by
the non-existant Khmer Rouge while Nixon was President.
Let's have a Kerry campaign crew press conference where the PRESS
can ask questions.
Better let's have a "crew debate" on CSPAN!!!
Craig
> SwiftVets 2 == Kerry 0 (on so far decided points)
Fool.
>
> #3 Debut on the NY Times best seller list
> #1 on Amazon
> #1 on Barnes and Noble
On the fiction shelf yet?
>
>
> If you haven't read the book, AND checked the references, it would
> be intellectually dishonest to vote for Kerry.
May as well just call you a jackass as to attempt to explain what
fallacious bullshit that is.
>
> Get the facts -- compare Kerry's various versions of "Christmas
> in Cambodia" released after the book released.
So, if the book might contain something that might be actual that is
going to validate the rest - rather than some that has already been
debunked - not as error but fib - would invalidate the whole?
>
> Unfit for Command:
> Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260174
>
> Don't let anyone tell you WHAT to believe -- work it out for yourself.
>
> Read the book and THEN DECIDE on the FACTS.
>
>
The credibility of the authors is none.
Send me a copy and I might read it. What was offered for download has
not convinced me that it be worth spending money on. I am happy enough
to watch one of the characters weasel some spin when caught in a lie.
Claim is that there was even bullet holes in the boat of that fellow
who claimed there to be no bullet holes in any boats. - though I have
not seen yet if that be from valid source.
What use to read what he says in a book when what he said in the book
is already being debunked?
And I have already watched much of the working of them scoundrels work
up a theory and spin it around a bit then turn to fact what they seem to
figure to not be easily disproved.
Kinda chicken way to spam a book, to start claiming now that someone
does not have business to argue issue unless they have read the book. -
I get impression that only way that book could even be used in a court
of law might be as evidence against the writers being accused of slander.
Herb Martin
--
Herb Martin
"Craig" <sun...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:2onhstF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Herb Martin wrote:
> > SwiftVets 2 == Kerry 0 (on so far decided points)
> > Get the facts -- compare Kerry's various versions of "Christmas
> > in Cambodia" released after the book released.
>
> So, if the book might contain something that might be actual that is
> going to validate the rest - rather than some that has already been
> debunked - not as error but fib - would invalidate the whole?
No, but it proves that Kerry's lies are being debunked and
right now it is all in favor of the Swiftvets on the FACTS.
If you can find an error -- and don't you think the Kerry people
are looking since all they have so far are personal attacks that
aren't even very compelling?
> > Unfit for Command:
> > Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895260174
> >
> > Don't let anyone tell you WHAT to believe -- work it out for yourself.
> >
> > Read the book and THEN DECIDE on the FACTS.
> >
> >
>
> The credibility of the authors is none.
It's greater than Kerry's credibility which is now VERY NEGATIVE
and their credibility is not THE ISSUE.
Their facts and Kerry's changing story are where the credibility and
lack of it lies. (or is that LIES)
Otis Willie
{EXCERPT} Boston Globe, MA - 10 hours ago By Scot Lehigh |
August 20, 2004. YESTERDAY John Kerry decided to take the offensive
over his Vietnam War record. It's about time......
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reproducing copyrighted material. In abidance
with our laws this report cannot be provided in
its entirety. However, you can read it in full
today at the supplied URL. The subject/content of
this report is not necessarily the viewpoint of
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for your information and discussion.
---------------------------
Otis Willie
Associate Librarian
The American War Library
http://www.americanwarlibrary.com
(310) 532-0634
Craig
It appears that your smart ass "--" at the top of your post kills the
quote and makes as you said nothing.
But that is pretty much what you are about. "Idiot wind"
Doug Reese
OK, Herb, I read the book, but where do I get the facts?
Doug
Herb Martin
news:41276709$0$21760$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> >Read the book and THEN DECIDE on the FACTS.
>
> OK, Herb, I read the book, but where do I get the facts?
>
> Doug
Let's start with YOUR section since you were there for some
of it -- I was under the impression that you found no errors of
fact in that section?
Did Kerry wound himself earlier in the day (from Rassman)
when he was blowing up the RICE cache?
Did Kerry engage a "superior force" at the Silver start incident
(you were there) as his citation reads?
Charles G. White
were there) as his citation reads? Herb<===
No, because Doug, the Army witness on the scene, earlier told me that this
part of the Kerry Silver Star citation was exaggerated.
Doug Reese
Just wanted you to know that "I hear you", and that I'm no Michelle Maulkin. I WILL
give you an answer(s).
Furthermore, I will adress the facts of the matter, not dance all around them, not
cherry-pick those that suit me, as the SBV"T" do in this book.
Doug
Matt Osborn wrote:
>On 21 Aug 2004 15:15:22 GMT, Doug Reese <dre...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>OK, Herb, I read the book, but where do I get the facts?
>>
>
>You were there for the Silver Star incident, Doug.
>
>Was it factual that John Kerry, the commander of his Swift Boat,
>beached the craft?
>
>Was it factual that with the craft beached, the 50 cal machine guns
>were rendered useless as they couldn't be brought to bear upon the
>action?
>
>Was it factual, that with a boat full of troops, it was John Kerry,
>the commander, who ran ashore as if he were a private in the infantry?
>
>Was it factual that by his actions John Kerry left his boat, his crew
>and his passengers, exposed, stationary and without direction?
Charles G. White
screaming at you.
"Doug Reese" wrote
Craig
I take it that you were there at your conception.
Did the condom break or you just found a flaw?
Herb Martin
> > Let's start with YOUR section since you were there for some
> > of it -- I was under the impression that you found no errors of
> > fact in that section?
> >
> > Did Kerry wound himself earlier in the day (from Rassman)
> > when he was blowing up the RICE cache?
> >
> > Did Kerry engage a "superior force" at the Silver start incident
> > (you were there) as his citation reads?
> >
> >
> >
>
> I take it that you were there at your conception.
> Did the condom break or you just found a flaw?
Ok, so we can assume from the little temper tantrum
and personal attack that you are neither witty nor able
to use logic or facts to refute these points.
So the answer to Kerry's dilemma's are:
> > Kerry DID wound himself earlier in the day (from Rassman)
> > when he was blowing up the RICE cache?
> >
> > Kerry DID engage a "superior force" at the Silver start incident
> > (you were there) as his citation reads?
Now, let's see you throw another hissy fit and some display
some more of your childish bad manners...
It's such an enjoyable admission that even you know yourself
you haven't got the facts on your side.
Craig
> "Craig" <sun...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:2oq393F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>>Let's start with YOUR section since you were there for some
>>>of it -- I was under the impression that you found no errors of
>>>fact in that section?
>>>
>>>Did Kerry wound himself earlier in the day (from Rassman)
>>>when he was blowing up the RICE cache?
>>>
>>>Did Kerry engage a "superior force" at the Silver start incident
>>>(you were there) as his citation reads?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I take it that you were there at your conception.
>>Did the condom break or you just found a flaw?
>
>
> Ok, so we can assume from the little temper tantrum
> and personal attack that you are neither witty nor able
> to use logic or facts to refute these points.
>
> So the answer to Kerry's dilemma's are:
Not Kerrys dilemma.
Your own dilemma.
You have made choice to believe that it was his own munition that
wounded his own self.
Next you will be telling me that it was Patton who caused his own death
for sake of being there when the wreck happened.
Dolt.
>
>
>>>Kerry DID wound himself earlier in the day (from Rassman)
>>>when he was blowing up the RICE cache?
>>>
>>>Kerry DID engage a "superior force" at the Silver start incident
>>>(you were there) as his citation reads?
>
>
> Now, let's see you throw another hissy fit and some display
> some more of your childish bad manners...
>
> It's such an enjoyable admission that even you know yourself
> you haven't got the facts on your side.
You have not facts to be on side of.
You chose a speculation and run with it as gospel.
Craig
WTF Michelle Maulkin?
One of the more despicable for even a right winger that I have seen
with an opinion.
Doug Reese
But we don't know who exaggerated it, do we? No, we don't.
Doug