Reports of a marine massacre in Iraq - acts of treason?
garag...@gmail.com
by Marines of women and children, one can only wonder why there
haven't already been arrests and detentions - not of the trigger-happy
Marines, since they're fighting for freedom and human rights, but
arrests of the tattletales in the Marines who ratted them out, and the
reporter Ellen Knickmeyer, and the editors of the Washington Post that
let this story run.
Next thing you know, there'll be snide remarks about how this is just
another My Lai or Tiger Force Massacre.
But what invariably gets lost, since this is such a cowardly country,
is that we are at war and we will be for perhaps decades to come. Any
report, any criticism, any remark or even any joke that lessens support
for war, or depresses G.I. morale, or leads to cuts in defense
spending, etc. encourages our enemies and promotes terrorism, communism
and fascism and diminishes our chances of winning the war for freedom.
In other words, Cheney and Rumsfeld were right to warn us to "Watch
what you say, what you do." The problem is we didn't listen. And so
this story, and so many like it these days, have lessened the public's
confidence in our Commander-in-Chief - during wartime, for God's sake!
- and lessened our resolve to march to victory over terrorism in Iraq
and elsewhere.
It's about time reports like this are treated for what they are: acts
of treason during wartime. We knew what to do with American-born Japs
during WWII and the FBI, in operation COINTELPRO, knew what to do with
opponents of the Vietnam War.
And yet dissent is allowed to continue. America's fight for freedom
and democracy would be much further along if we were to arrest a few
reporters and editors who print filth such as this. Besides, imagine
how a homesick Marine feels learning that he wasn't able to participate
in this recent glorious "firefight" victory of freedom and human rights
over terrorism..
Gary
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html
In Haditha, Memories of a Massacre
Iraqi Townspeople Describe Slaying of 24 Civilians by Marines in Nov.
19 Incident
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, May 27, 2006; A01
BAGHDAD, May 26 -- Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by
U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men,
women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a
Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.
Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his
home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three
families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim
Khafif, plead in English for his life and the lives of his family
members. "I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a
friend. I am good,' " Fahmi said. "But they killed him, and his wife
and daughters."
The 24 Iraqi civilians killed on Nov. 19 included children and the
women who were trying to shield them, witnesses told a Washington Post
special correspondent in Haditha this week and U.S. investigators said
in Washington. The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10,
5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates.
Two U.S. military boards are investigating the incident as potentially
the gravest violation of the law of war by U.S. forces in the
three-year-old conflict in Iraq. The U.S. military ordered the probes
after Time magazine presented military officials in Baghdad this year
with the findings of its own investigation, based on accounts of
survivors and on a videotape shot by an Iraqi journalism student at
Haditha's hospital and inside victims' houses.
An investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service into the
killings and a separate military probe into an alleged coverup are
slated to end in the next few weeks. Marines have briefed members of
the Senate Armed Services Committee and other officials on the
findings; some of the officials briefed say the evidence is damaging.
Charges of murder, dereliction of duty and making a false statement are
likely, people familiar with the case said Friday.
"Marines overreacted . . . and killed innocent civilians in cold
blood," said one of those briefed, Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), a former
Marine who maintains close ties with senior Marine officers despite his
opposition to the war.
Haditha is one of a chain of farm towns on the Euphrates River where
U.S. and Iraqi forces have battled foreign and local insurgents without
resolution for much of the war. The first account of the killings there
was a false or erroneous statement issued the next day, Nov. 20, by a
U.S. Marine spokesman from a Marine base in Ramadi: "A U.S. Marine and
15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in
Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy
with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire,
killing eight insurgents and wounding another.''
The incident was touched off when a roadside bomb struck a Kilo
Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment supply convoy. The
explosion killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, who was on
his second tour of duty in Iraq. Following in the footsteps of two
Marine uncles and a Marine grandfather, Terrazas had planned to go to
college when it was all done, his family said.
Insurgents planted the bomb on a side road off one of Haditha's main
streets, placing it between two vacant lots to try to avoid killing --
and further alienating -- Haditha's civilians, residents said. It went
off at 7:15 a.m. Terrazas was driving the Humvee, and he died
instantly. Two other Marines in the convoy were wounded.
"Everybody agrees that this was the triggering event. The question is:
What happened afterward?" said Paul Hackett, an attorney for a Marine
officer with a slight connection to the case.
The descriptions of events provided to The Post by witnesses in Haditha
could not be independently verified, although their accounts of the
number of casualties and their identities were corroborated by death
certificates.
In the first minutes after the shock of the blast, residents said,
silence reigned on the street of walled courtyards, brick homes and
tiny palm groves. Marines appeared stunned, or purposeful, as they
moved around the burning Humvee, witnesses said.
Then one of the Marines took charge and began shouting, said Fahmi, who
was watching from his roof. Fahmi said he saw the Marine direct other
Marines into the house closest to the blast, about 50 yards away.
It was the home of 76-year-old Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali. Although he had
used a wheelchair since diabetes forced a leg amputation years ago, Ali
was always one of the first on his block to go out every morning,
scattering scraps for his chickens and hosing the dust of the arid
western town from his driveway, neighbors said.
In the house with Ali and his 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were
three of the middle-aged male members of their family, at least one
daughter-in-law and four children -- 4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old
Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia.
Marines entered shooting, witnesses recalled. Most of the shots -- in
Ali's house and two others -- were fired at such close range that they
went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or
the floor, physicians at Haditha's hospital said.
A daughter-in-law, identified as Hibbah, escaped with Asia, survivors
and neighbors said. Iman and Abdul Rahman were shot but survived.
Four-year-old Abdullah, Ali and the rest died.
Ali took nine rounds in the chest and abdomen, leaving his intestines
spilling out of the exit wounds in his back, according to his death
certificate.
The Marines moved to the house next door, Fahmi said.
Inside were 43-year-old Khafif, 41-year-old Aeda Yasin Ahmed, an
8-year-old son, five young daughters and a 1-year-old girl staying with
the family, according to death certificates and neighbors.
The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the
kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's
pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died
screaming.
Only 13-year-old Safa Younis lived -- saved, she said, by her mother's
blood spilling onto her, making her look dead when she fell, limp, in a
faint.
Townspeople led a Washington Post reporter this week to the girl they
identified as Safa. Wearing a ponytail and tracksuit, the girl said her
mother died trying to gather the girls. The girl burst into tears after
a few words. The older couple caring for her apologized and asked the
reporter to leave.
Moving to a third house in the row, Marines burst in on four brothers,
Marwan, Qahtan, Chasib and Jamal Ahmed. Neighbors said the Marines
killed them together.
Marine officials said later that one of the brothers had the only gun
found among the three families, although there has been no known
allegation that the weapon was fired.
Meanwhile, a separate group of Marines found at least one other house
full of young men. The Marines led the men in that house outside, some
still in their underwear, and away to detention.
The final victims of the day happened upon the scene inadvertently,
witnesses said. Four male college students -- Khalid Ayada al-Zawi,
Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi, Mohammed Battal Mahmoud and Akram Hamid Flayeh --
had left the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah for the weekend to stay
with one of their families on the street, said Fahmi, a friend of the
young men.
A Haditha taxi driver, Ahmed Khidher, was bringing them home, Fahmi
said.
According to Fahmi, the young men and their driver turned onto the
street and saw the wrecked Humvee and the Marines. Khidher threw the
car into reverse, trying to back away at full speed, Fahmi said, and
the Marines opened fire from about 30 yards away, killing all the men
inside the taxi.
After the killings, Fahmi said, more Americans arrived at the scene.
They shouted among themselves. The Marines cordoned off the block;
then, and for at least the next day, Marines filed into the houses,
looked around and came out.
At some point on Nov. 19, Marines in an armored convoy arrived at
Haditha's hospital. They placed the bodies of the victims in the garden
of the hospital and left without explanation, said Mohammed al-Hadithi,
one of the hospital officials who helped carry the bodies inside. By
some accounts, some of the corpses were burnt.
The remains of the 24 lie today in a cemetery called Martyrs'
Graveyard. Stray dogs scrounge in the deserted homes. "Democracy
assassinated the family that was here," graffiti on one of the houses
declared.
The insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq said it sent copies of the
journalism student's videotape to mosques in Syria, Jordan and Saudi
Arabia, using the killings of the women and children to recruit
fighters.
After Haditha leaders complained, the Marines paid compensation put
variously by townspeople at $1,500 or $2,500 for each of the 15 men,
women and children killed in the first two houses. They refused to pay
for the nine other men killed, insisting that they were insurgents.
Officials familiar with the investigations said it is now believed that
the nine were innocent victims. By some accounts, a 25th person, the
father of the four brothers killed together, was also killed.
As the official investigations conclude and fresh information continues
to surface in Haditha, several aspects of the incident remain unclear
or are in dispute.
For example, John Sifton of Human Rights Watch, which helped break the
news that spurred the military investigation, said he had been told by
Marine officers that the rampage lasted three to five hours and
involved two squads of Marines.
Although Marines' accounts offered in the early stages of the
investigation described a running gun battle, those versions of the
story proved to be false, officials briefed by the Marines said.
Also, one member of Congress who was briefed by Marines said in
Washington that the shooting of the men in the taxi occurred before the
shootings in the houses.
Another point of dispute is whether some houses were destroyed by fire
or by airstrikes. Some Iraqis reported that the Marines burned houses
in the area of the attack, but two people familiar with the case,
including Hackett, the lawyer, said warplanes conducted airstrikes,
dropping 500-pound bombs on more than one house.
That is significant for any possible court-martial proceedings, because
it would indicate that senior commanders, who must approve such strikes
and who would also use aircraft to assess their effects, were paying
attention to events in Haditha that day.
The Marines of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines have rotated
back home, to California. Last month, the Marine Corps relieved Lt.
Col. Jeffrey Chessani of command of the 3rd Battalion. Two of his
company commanders were relieved of their commands, as well.
Authorities said a series of unspecified incidents had led to a loss of
confidence in the three.
In Haditha, families of those killed keep an ear cocked to a foreign
station, Radio Monte Carlo, waiting for any news of a trial of the
Marines.
"They are waiting for the sentence -- although they are convinced that
the sentence will be like one for someone who killed a dog in the
United States," said Waleed Mohammed, a lawyer preparing a file for
Iraqi courts and the United Nations, if the U.S. trial disappoints.
"Because Iraqis have become like dogs in the eyes of Americans.''
A Washington Post staff member in Iraq and staff writer Thomas E. Ricks
and staff researcher Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this
report.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company
redjacket
This is when we honor our heroes.
If needed I can send you some Outstanding
websites !
I will make you proud to an American !
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148766560.8...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
leto...@nospam.net
>No Gary, wrong time of year.
>This is when we honor our heroes.
WRONG: Memorial Day, originally called Decoration Day, is a day of
remembrance for those who have died in our nation's service.
...Even those who died for nothing in a war made with lies. The word
"Hero" has nothing to do with it. But then I wouldn't expect a kook to
know that.
Yaketyak
what a punk you really are.. lmao.
garag...@gmail.com
How can you make me proud to [be] an American when I'm already
vest-burstingly proud of our GI's who showed, with bullets and hand
grenades, those terrorist babies and women the resolve we have to
defend human rights and freedom!
If their silly old god were worth his salt, he'd have saved them from
our Marines. But our Marines are working in Jesus Christ's service and
they triumphed against Allah when those bullets fell and smote the
infidel terrorists.
What could possibly make an American prouder than that?
Gary
redjacket
Its about our heroes today, not Iqum ? or right wing or camp followers.
Grow up and go away.
You are no vet leave. Who wants you here ?
<leto...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:RE5eg.102$o%3.71@trndny07...
Latrine Orderly Canadian War Library
damn gary, you a little slow on this one....it's been out for weeks.
leto...@nospam.net
at 12:13 PM, "Latrine Orderly Canadian War Library"
<awrli...@hotmail.net> said:
>damn gary, you a little slow on this one....it's been out for weeks.
Actually the fact tht are going to be charged was just in the news last
week.
garag...@gmail.com
Now don't go confusing him with the facts; he was just doin' fine
without 'em.
Johnny Yuma
<garag...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nothing can make you proud of America, Gary. Absolutely nothing. It's
not in you to love this country.
You long ago decided to see and raise up only what you see wrong. The
rest of us see wrong, too, but it is not ALL we see. It is not ALL we
say. But to you, the U.S. can only do wrong.
Where would you rather be? Or does your life lay in the bad-mouthing
while sucking at the teat?
Whitey Bulger
>In <6KadnWylM4O...@adelphia.com>, on 05/27/2006
> at 07:26 PM, "redjacket" <redj...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
>
>>No Gary, wrong time of year.
>>This is when we honor our heroes.
>
>WRONG: Memorial Day, originally called Decoration Day, is a day of
>remembrance for those who have died in our nation's service.
>
>...Even those who died for nothing in a war made with lies. The word
>"Hero" has nothing to do with it. But then I wouldn't expect a kook to
>know that.
Have you said that at a VVA meeting?
William Boyd
I do not think you have it yet, and from what I understand
you will never get it. Because if you ask a Yankee you will
get one story and another out of a rebel. But one thing for
sure it was originally "Decoration Day". In the south it was
a day they put flowers on the confederate soldiers graves.
In the north it was the same except it was Yankee graves.
Due to the hostile attitudes between the north and south,
commencement of putting flowers on both graves came much later.
------------------------------------------------------------
In 1868, Commander in Chief John A. Logan of the Grand
Army of the Republic issued General Order Number 11
designating May 30 as a memorial day "for the purpose of
strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of
comrades who died in defense of their country during the
late rebellion, and whose bodies now lie in almost every
city, village, and hamlet churchyard in the land."
---------------------------------------------------------
But in the south: History is recorded.
http://womenshistory.about.com/cs/holidays/a/memorial_day.htm
Commander in Chief John A. Logan of the Grand Army of the
Republic issued the 1868 proclamation declaring the first
Decoration Day. He credited his wife, Mary Logan, with the
suggestion for the commemoration. But the idea had its roots
in the decoration of the graves of Civil War dead by women,
going back at least to 1864.
On April 25, 1866, in Columbus, Mississippi, a women's
association decorated the graves of both Union and
Confederate soldiers.
-------------------------------------------------------
But as you would have it those in power were able to steal
the day. Spoils of war.
--
BILL P.
Just
Me
&
DOG
Yaketyak
he's most likely been banned.
leto...@nospam.net
Give it up bulger and get the mental help you need to accept this reality:
The kissinger memo tells it all -->we were fighting a war against the
commies so the right wing kook politicians could give it all to the
commies in the end -- because it served their political ambitions.
In time, we will have proof iraqnam is about the same thing.
In <mqpk72duhvujleav6...@4ax.com>, on 05/28/2006
leto...@nospam.net
>he's most likely been banned.
The kissinger memo tells it all -- only someone with serious mental
problems can still deny that Vietnam was all for nothing -- since the
right wing kooks intended on giving it to the commies in the end.
Do try to pull your head out the warm, moist, dark, smelly place you hide
it on this day.
Yaketyak
ARCHIVE: Ed LeTourneau - Quisling
(quisling \KWIZ-ling\, noun: Someone who collaborates with an enemy; a
traitor)
************************************************************
eddie;
seriously now.. who are we to believe.. ??
the media which slants everything or produces it to draw in more
advertising, the enemy who we expect to lie or the people we elect to
office.. well not even them sometimes but.. and this is a BIG "BUT"
even you..
When we apply *our own standards for truth* EVEN YOU turn out to be
lying.. that should tell you something for sure.
so who are we to believe.. I'll stick with the elected officials at
least then we have a 50/50 chance of filtering out the chaff, with
you, the media and the enemy LYING is a given
"We are either a United people, or we are not. If the former, let
us, in all maters of general concern act as a nation, which have
national objects to promote, and a national character to support.
If we are not, let us no longer act a farce by pretending to it."
-- George Washington (letter to James Madison, 30 November 1785)
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (315)
leto...@nospam.net
The media didn't slant kissinger's memo moron. Do you know what the word
"memo" means?
PS: He gave Vietnam to the commies. You ought to be real pissed about
that.
In <m01m72lul219i60ud...@4ax.com>, on 05/29/2006
Yaketyak
ARCHIVE: Ed LeTourneau - Quisling
(quisling \KWIZ-ling\, noun: Someone who collaborates with an enemy; a
traitor)
************************************************************
as usual you choose to distort reality and truth with your lies..
I never said the media sun Kissinger.. ever.
I didnt like the fuck then and still dont.. but I like you even less
little comrade.
haha !
it used to be the left in America would only attack America
for being in other countries.. now they attack us for being
in our own country.. its time they are the ones attacked.
Yaketyak
garag...@gmail.com
But, Johnny, how you misunderestimate me!
I'm proud we're slaying the infidel, heathen moslems!
I'm even proud we're slaying them preemptively - i.e. killing babies
who will grow up to be terrorists and women who might produce babies
who are likely to grow to be terrorists. Bush has shown us the wisdom
of preemption, and how successful it can be, and only America-haters
don't see that wisdom.
I'm also proud we're cutting my taxes while putting a greater and
greater burden on the next generation to pay for the deficits my tax
windfall costs. Why the hell should I pay for war when the lower and
middle classes see it as their patriotic duty to pay for it and to make
certain it costs me so little? That's real patriotism, pal!
And I'm damn, damn proud that at my tax bracket I get a larger % cut
than I would if I'd been less successful in life. Hell, why reward blue
collar workers and low-level white collar types when they were too lazy
or stupid to succeed? Let 'em enlist and die for my safety and for the
health of my Lockheed Martin stock, I say.
But lets never forget that the war was based on undeniable truth.
For example, boosting Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's truthful claim
that "We know where they are," Vice President Cheney claimed that,
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass
destruction ... he is amassing them to use against our friends, against
our allies, and against us." It wasn't too many years ago that a
similar intelligence coup about the Tonkin Gulf led us to a similar
spactular success in Vietnam.
But after Rumsfeld assured us that the war would cost a mere $50 to $60
billion and "could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months,"
and with Cheney enthusing that, "we will, in fact, be greeted as
liberators," congress and the public joined the battle cry. Three
years, $439 billion and 12,000 dead or wounded later, Bush's
"Mission Accomplished" is now heralded as his crowning moment. The
happy, peaceful Iraqis sing Bush's praises daily.
So what if Nobel economist Steiglitz's forcast that the ultimate
price tag might reach $2 Trillion turns out to be true? And so what
how many more Marines have to die? I won't be paying for it and it's a
sure bet that for every Marine who goes down, 100 Iraqi heathens will
die, right? What greater measure of success could one wish for?
Especially now that we're free of vile threats from those WMDs and now
that Saddam's ties to 9/11, to al Qaeda and to bin Laden have been
disrupted.
But, as you say, it's not all rosy news out there.
For example, it's disappointing that Fox News reported that an eighth
general, Ret. Marine General Paul Van Riper, has called for chief war
strategist, Rumsfeld, to resign; a tragedy that conservative icons
from William Buckley to Pat Buchanan, George F. Will, Francis Fukuyama
and beyond are balking; abominable that a Marine colonel - retired,
Purple Heart-decorated Congressman John Murtah - has turned against
the war.
But to the bad news there's lots of good: When we stood with Bush, we
never even hoped that he could undue a key legal protection - the
Writ of Habeas Corpus - a law that has shielded individuals from Big
Brother for centuries. As we learned from the USSR, Big Brother is
good. It took a courageous president to make Big Brother a reality here
at home and we're all the better for it.
We never dared to hope that we Americans would be standing for
kidnapping, for torture, or extraordinary rendition, indefinite
detention, for secret CIA gulags, or for holding captives without
notifying the Red Cross, for illegal spying on Americans, etc. - all
violations of the Geneva Accords, but actions that keep us safer. With
Bush, our most secret hopes have been achieved. It's about time we
learned to trust properly constituted authority, and not the rule of
some stupid majority, to take care of us.
There was a time when people who were called patriots said, "Give me
liberty or give me death," when they said, "Those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither." Bush has taught us much
better.
Now the mantra is, "Give us your liberties and trust us on your
security." Who could possibly object to that? Liberals, who else?
Conservative know that even though the state can't be trusted to run
a welfare state, it can definitely be trusted to run a police state.
It may have taken Americans a long time to realize that govt works best
when it operates in secrecy and when it ignores the will of congress
and writes its own rules. But, happily, we're there now.
Hallelujah!
Gary
garag...@gmail.com
out that the massacre at No Gun Ri in Koreal wasn't just because a few
whacked out Marines went nuts, as is said about Iraq's Haditha, but it
was OFFICIAL U.S. policy.
There was a time when we had the courage to shoot refugees in cold
blood. Where has that courage gone? And if we can't ask that question
today, on Memorial Day, when can we?
Gary
http://rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060529/D8HTK2CO1.html
U.S. Policy Was to Shoot Korean Refugees
Email this Story
May 29, 2:44 PM (ET)
By CHARLES J. HANLEY and MARTHA MENDOZA
(AP) President Truman pins the Distinguished Service Medal with four
oak leaf clusters on the shirt of...
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More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document
from the war's chaotic early days has come to light - a letter from the
U.S. ambassador to Seoul, informing the State Department that American
soldiers would shoot refugees approaching their lines.
The letter - dated the day of the Army's mass killing of South Korean
refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950 - is the strongest indication yet that
such a policy existed for all U.S. forces in Korea, and the first
evidence that that policy was known to upper ranks of the U.S.
government.
"If refugees do appear from north of US lines they will receive warning
shots, and if they then persist in advancing they will be shot," wrote
Ambassador John J. Muccio, in his message to Assistant Secretary of
State Dean Rusk.
The letter reported on decisions made at a high-level meeting in South
Korea on July 25, 1950, the night before the 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment
shot the refugees at No Gun Ri.
Estimates vary on the number of dead at No Gun Ri. American soldiers'
estimates ranged from under 100 to "hundreds" dead; Korean survivors
say about 400, mostly women and children, were killed at the village
100 miles southeast of Seoul, the South Korean capital. Hundreds more
refugees were killed in later, similar episodes, survivors say.
The No Gun Ri killings were documented in a Pulitzer Prize-winning
story by The Associated Press in 1999, which prompted a 16-month
Pentagon inquiry.
The Pentagon concluded that the No Gun Ri shootings, which lasted three
days, were "an unfortunate tragedy" - "not a deliberate killing." It
suggested panicky soldiers, acting without orders, opened fire because
they feared that an approaching line of families, baggage and farm
animals concealed enemy troops.
But Muccio's letter indicates the actions of the 7th Cavalry were
consistent with policy, adopted because of concern that North Koreans
would infiltrate via refugee columns. And in subsequent months, U.S.
commanders repeatedly ordered refugees shot, documents show.
The Muccio letter, declassified in 1982, is discussed in a new book by
American historian Sahr Conway-Lanz, who discovered the document at the
U.S. National Archives, where the AP also has obtained a copy.
Conway-Lanz, a former Harvard historian and now an archivist of the
National Archives' Nixon collection, was awarded the Stuart L. Bernath
Award of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations for
the article on which the book is based.
"With this additional piece of evidence, the Pentagon report's
interpretation (of No Gun Ri) becomes difficult to sustain,"
Conway-Lanz argues in his book, "Collateral Damage," published this
spring by Routledge.
The Army report's own list of sources for the 1999-2001 investigation
shows its researchers reviewed the microfilm containing the Muccio
letter. But the 300-page report did not mention it.
Asked about this, Pentagon spokeswoman Betsy Weiner would say only that
the Army inspector general's report was "an accurate and objective
portrayal of the available facts based on 13 months of work."
Said Louis Caldera, who was Army secretary in 2001 and is now
University of New Mexico president, "Millions of pages of files were
reviewed and it is certainly possible they may have simply missed it."
Ex-journalist Don Oberdorfer, a historian of Korea who served on a team
of outside experts who reviewed the investigation, said he did not
recall seeing the Muccio message. "I don't know why, since the military
claimed to have combed all records from any source."
Muccio noted in his 1950 letter that U.S. commanders feared disguised
North Korean soldiers were infiltrating American lines via refugee
columns.
As a result, those meeting on the night of July 25, 1950 - top staff
officers of the U.S. 8th Army, Muccio's representative Harold J. Noble
and South Korean officials - decided on a policy of air-dropping
leaflets telling South Korean civilians not to head south toward U.S.
defense lines, and of shooting them if they did approach U.S. lines
despite warning shots, the ambassador wrote to Rusk.
Rusk, Muccio and Noble, who was embassy first secretary, are all dead.
It is not known what action, if any, Rusk and others in Washington may
have taken as a result of the letter.
Muccio told Rusk, who later served as U.S. secretary of state during
the Vietnam War, that he was writing him "in view of the possibility of
repercussions in the United States" from such deadly U.S. tactics.
But the No Gun Ri killings - as well as others in the ensuing months -
remained hidden from history until the AP report of 1999, in which
ex-soldiers who were at No Gun Ri corroborated the Korean survivors'
accounts.
Survivors said U.S. soldiers first forced them from nearby villages on
July 25, 1950, and then stopped them in front of U.S. lines the next
day, when they were attacked without warning by aircraft as hundreds
sat atop a railroad embankment. Troops of the 7th Cavalry followed with
ground fire as survivors took shelter under a railroad bridge.
The late Army Col. Robert M. Carroll, a lieutenant at No Gun Ri, said
he remembered the order radioed across the warfront on the morning of
July 26 to stop refugees from crossing battle lines. "What do you do
when you're told nobody comes through?" he said in a 1998 interview.
"We had to shoot them to hold them back."
Other soldier witnesses attested to radioed orders to open fire at No
Gun Ri.
Since that episode was confirmed in 1999, South Koreans have lodged
complaints with the Seoul government about more than 60 other alleged
large-scale killings of refugees by the U.S. military in the 1950-53
war.
The Army report of 2001 acknowledged investigators learned of other,
unspecified civilian killings, but said these would not be
investigated.
Meanwhile, AP research uncovered at least 19 declassified U.S. military
documents showing commanders ordered or authorized such killings in
1950-51.
In a statement issued Monday in Seoul, a No Gun Ri survivors group
called that episode "a clear war crime," demanded an apology and
compensation from the U.S. government, and said the U.S. Congress and
the United Nations should conduct investigations. The survivors also
said they would file a lawsuit against the Pentagon for alleged
manipulation of the earlier probe.
The Army's denial that the killings were ordered is a "deception of No
Gun Ri victims and of U.S. citizens who value human rights," said
spokesman Chung Koo-do.
Even if infiltrators are present, soldiers need to take "due
precautions" to protect civilian lives, said Francois Bugnion, director
for international law for the International Committee of the Red Cross
in Geneva, global authority on the laws of war.
After reviewing the 1950 letter, Bugnion said the standard on war
crimes is clear.
"In the case of a deliberate attack directed against civilians
identified as such, then this would amount to a violation of the law of
armed conflict," he said.
Gary Solis, a West Point expert on war crimes, said the policy
described by Muccio clearly "deviates from typical wartime procedures.
It's an obvious violation of the bedrock core principle of the law of
armed conflict - distinction."
Solis said soldiers always have the right to defend themselves. But
"noncombatants are not to be purposely targeted."
But William Eckhardt, lead Army prosecutor in the My Lai atrocities
case in Vietnam, sensed "angst, great angst" in the letter because
officials worried about what might happen. "If a mob doesn't stop when
they're coming at you, you fire over their heads and if they still
don't stop you fire at them. Standard procedure," he said.
In South Korea, Yi Mahn-yol, head of the National Institute of Korean
History and a member of a government panel on No Gun Ri, said the
Muccio letter sheds an entirely new light on a case that "so far has
been presented as an accidental incident that didn't involve the
command system."
---
AP Investigative Researcher Randy Herschaft in New York and AP Writer
Jae-soon Chang in Seoul contributed to this report.
redjacket
Like wake up, its not doom and gloom out there.
Hey, look at Mexico, only people who want it better for the
kids come here.
Only crooks run to México !
Doo Da
You did put your flag up today, right ?
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148952461.9...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
redjacket
I looked at that sexy bod and smile I seen right off she
was the firecracker that would win $25,000 !
Yes, siree.
"Yaketyak" <yake...@dontcomeback.gov> wrote in message
news:gm1n729ricu4mnboe...@4ax.com...
Nigel Brooks
stuff around Memorial day. May we expect the same on Veterans day?
How about MLK day - do you troll newsgroups which might be associated with
civil rights?
Labor day - troll the teamsters newsgroup.
The possibilities are endless Gary old chap.
But you better watch out if there is ever a Bikers Day holiday - those folks
probably won't be as forgiving.
--
Nigel Brooks
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148952461.9...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
garag...@gmail.com
toppled democracy in '53 to reinstall the Shah with his death squads.
*"We" helped the Guatemalans when we toppled their democracy to install
a totalitarian despot in '54.
* "We" helped the Chileans when we toppled their democracy on 9/11,
1973 that is, to install a totalitarian despot.
* "We" helped the Vietnamese by murdering 3 million of them.
* "We" helped democracy in Venezuela when we supported the coup 4 years
ago.
* And we're helping Iraq today, helping it descend into chaos.
And we do it out of the kindness of our hearts, we do.
What greater love can man have for his fellow man?
Well, ordering up the shooting of refugees might be just that kind of
love, no?
Gary
redjacket
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148966884.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
leto...@nospam.net
at 05:27 PM, Whitey Bulger <Whitey...@onthelam.com> said:
>Have you stood up at a VVA meeting and said those words to the members?
>If not, why not?
Duh! The memo was just released last week. --->You need to broaden your
reading. But what is most interesting is your reaction to the facts:
kissinger was giving Vietnam to the commies -->and you (nd the rest of the
right wing kooks here) don't seem to give a damn. What the hell kind of
Americans are you anyway!
Yaketyak
I just know I'd get in serious trouble in that place.. too much booze
and too many lookers.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 00:05:10 -0400, "redjacket" <redj...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Yaketyak
see... I told you he was banned.. ha!
Yaketyak
On Mon, 29 May 2006 23:20:43 -0500, "Nigel Brooks" <nbr...@msn.com>
wrote:
i2p6 west
soldiers learned they could shoot any Vietnamese person on sight, no questions asked.
garag...@gmail.com
Nigel Brooks wrote:
> I presume that it is no coincidence that you chose to post this kind of
> stuff around Memorial day. May we expect the same on Veterans day?
>
> How about MLK day - do you troll newsgroups which might be associated with
> civil rights?
>
> Labor day - troll the teamsters newsgroup.
>
> The possibilities are endless Gary old chap.
>
> But you better watch out if there is ever a Bikers Day holiday - those folks
> probably won't be as forgiving.
>
> --
> Nigel Brooks
>
Nigel,
Thanks ever so much for your thoughtful response. But you didn't
answer. Where has American courage gone when we're no longer allowed to
kill noncombatant women and babies in cold blood? I mean are we serious
about human rights and freedom or not, fer chrissakes?
There was a time when America was man enough to do that - as per the
following AP dispatch. Why not now?
U.S. Policy Was to Shoot Korean Refugees
Email this Story
May 29, 2:44 PM (ET)
By CHARLES J. HANLEY and MARTHA MENDOZA
More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document
---
Gary
Nigel Brooks
I do not now or have I ever condoned the unlawful killing of non combatants.
On the other hand - I wonder what your particular incentive for trolling a
Veterans newsgroup is. You might just as well go to the San Francisco VA
carrying a sign with the words "BabyKillers" written on it.
Of course here you don't have to worry about your freedom of speech and the
reaction of those who read it, you are safe behind your keyboard - there,
some amputee might very well decide to kick your ass.
--
Nigel Brooks
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149011310.1...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
garag...@gmail.com
The obvious answer to the question of why Americans are no longer
encouraged to kill innocent women and baby noncombatants is that, in
point of fact, Americans are still being encouraged to kill them, and
they are normally protected when they do so.
In this case, for example, last November's massacre in Haditha was
given the usual Pentagon circular file treatment and would have stayed
buried but Time Magazine got hold of the story in March and finally
held the Pentagon's feet to the fire. Only then, did the Pentagon
bestir itself. I can't wait to see the lies the Pentagon is preparing
to reassure the public. Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert will have a
field day, no doubt.
Look, one needn't be any kind of America hater to realize that the
Pentagon isn't in the business of honorably killing only when necessary
to achieve legitimate national security ends; it's in the business of
killing and calling it legitimate if possible to do so and covering up
when caught in illigitimate massacres.
The examples I've previously cited from the No Gun Ri [Korea] and the
Tiger Force Massacres {Vietnam] typify the Pentagon's willingness to
turn a blind eye to cold blooded murder when it thinks it can get away
with it. In these cases, the Pengaton got away with it for decades. But
when it gets caughtt, are any senior leaders in the Pentagon held to
account for being accessories after the fact to acts of murder? The
obvious answer is ripe for the sort of black humor I enjoy, the sort
one gets from Stephen Colbert.
What actually happens is that some hapless, low-ranking Marine or G.I.
who was following orders gets sent up the river and the higher ups slap
themselves on the back in the compliant press for the integrity with
which the Pentagon pursues wanton murderers in its ranks. And some of
those who were responsible for the coverups get promotions.
For example, take a look at the latest dispatch from AP on No Gun Ri.
The Koreans, who had correctly complained that the Pentagon had covered
up a massacre for over 40 years, continue to claim that there are
other, similar massacres that GIs committed in Korea that have never
been investigated. The AP dispatch points out that the Pentagon,
predictably, has flatly refused to investigate any of those other
massacres, despite the fact it is our ally, Korea, that has asked for
the investigations. "Patriots" see nothing to complain about in this.
So I never cease to be amazed at patriots like you, Nigel, patriots
who, knowing there is a difference between truth and what U.S.
officials say is true, tend to go with what the officials say, out of
love of country, no doubt.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me, no? [This quote
is too difficult for Bush to deliver correctly.]
How many times you gonna play the fool, Nigel? How many times are you
going to make excuses and look for extenuations for murderers and
liars? Do you really have no shame, or is that just the bravado you
learned in uniform?
Gary
Nigel Brooks
I truly don't Gary. A criminal act is a criminal act whether it is
committed by someone acting alone or under orders. If in fact individuals
have committed such criminal acts then they should be treated in accordance
with the UCMJ and the law - I'm just as outraged as you are about all of
this.
But on another point. It seems you have attracted a fan of sorts - he seems
to be inviting you to join some kind of mysterious "anti-cyberstalking"
group (that apparently does not have many members). Before you make a
decision as to whether or not to engage him - I thought I'd make you aware
that he has previously claimed to have witnessed interrogations in Vietnam
that clearly seem to violate the Geneva Conventions or the Uniform Code of
Military Justice
May 10, 2004 - "In truth I have witnessed several interrogation methods
during war, and I cannot think of a single method that does not humiliate or
terrify the prisoner. Cooking fake babies in front of female prisoners
worked well in the village interrogations(the baby was switched for a look
alike doll that really was a piece of beef). (This tactic also probably was
the basis for the Commies claiming that GI's "ate Vietnamese babies." )Doug
Grant (Tm)
Now I know that you do not hold the clergy in very high regard - but I
sincerely doubt that you would go as far as he claims he has
Feb 14, 1998 - "I am alive and wealthy and that is "amounting to something"
I suppose. But no, I never wanted to be a priest or anything like that - I
shot a few priests in Vietnam, if that amounts to anything? "Doug Grant (Tm)
--
Nigel Brooks
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149018169.5...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
DGVREIMAN
"Nigel Brooks" <nbr...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:4e3pa3F...@individual.net...
>I suppose that you didn't see my comment where I said that "I do
>not now nor have I ever condoned the unlawful killing of non
>combatants".
>
> I truly don't Gary. A criminal act is a criminal act whether
> it is committed by someone acting alone or under orders. If in
> fact individuals have committed such criminal acts then they
> should be treated in accordance with the UCMJ and the law - I'm
> just as outraged as you are about all of this.
Doug Says: I agree, if someone is committing criminal acts, such
as Cyberstalking or unlawful harassment, or libel, then they
should be treated in accordance with the law.
>
> But on another point. It seems you have attracted a fan of
> sorts - he seems to be inviting you to join some kind of
> mysterious "anti-cyberstalking" group (that apparently does not
> have many members). Before you make a decision as to whether
> or not to engage him - I thought I'd make you aware that he has
> previously claimed to have witnessed interrogations in Vietnam
> that clearly seem to violate the Geneva Conventions or the
> Uniform Code of Military Justice
> May 10, 2004 - "In truth I have witnessed several interrogation
> methods during war, and I cannot think of a single method that
> does not humiliate or terrify the prisoner. Cooking fake babies
> in front of female prisoners worked well in the village
> interrogations(the baby was switched for a look alike doll that
> really was a piece of beef). (This tactic also probably was the
> basis for the Commies claiming that GI's "ate Vietnamese
> babies." )Doug Grant (Tm)
>
Doug Says: I believe the last person on this Earth that could be
considered an expert on the Geneva Convention or the UCMJ is
NIgel Brooks. Moreover, I did not even mention the specific
interrogation methods I "witnessed" yet Mr. Brooks immediately
has lied and distorted what I said into claiming that I
personally "witnessed" events that were against the law. I
simply made a point that all of the interrogation methods I
witnessed either humiliated or terrified the prisoner or person
being interrogated. That does not mean the prisoner or person
involved was injured. Mr. Brooks accusation that what I
"witnessed" without me even stating specifically what I was
talking about represents some violation of articles and rules
that clearly Mr. Brooks does not understand is just another
Nigel Brooks false accusation, and clearly represents nothing
more than cyberstalking and more defamation.
>
> Now I know that you do not hold the clergy in very high
> regard - but I sincerely doubt that you would go as far as he
> claims he has
>
> Feb 14, 1998 - "I am alive and wealthy and that is "amounting
> to something" I suppose. But no, I never wanted to be a priest
> or anything like that - I shot a few priests in Vietnam, if
> that amounts to anything? "Doug Grant (Tm)
Doug Says: I have read this allegation several times and each
time I asked Mr. Brooks for a Google archived copy of the
statement he is falsely claiming I wrote Mr. Brooks ducks and
runs. Mr. Brooks has admitted that he does not know who wrote
what under the Doug Grant (Tm) account as there were (are)
several different authors and typists using that account, as our
registered copyrights prove. But lying about me is something
that Mr. Brooks does often, and I am not surprised that he is
once again posting a personal attack, which is something that he
does often for the purpose of causing me emotional harm and
distress.
Moreover, Mr. Brooks was a two year draftee in the US Army,
probably serving as a truck driver in Vietnam (or so I have been
told). I doubt if he learned any "bravado" anywhere or at
anytime in his life. I know when anyone asks him about his
specific Vietnam service, such as MOS, actual duties, Unit, he
ducks that question with nonsense, such as his claim "I was
assigned to HHD Special Troops, USARV" - What nonsense. The
only unit like that is HHD Special Troops Drivers" and they were
assigned to a Transportation Battalion "USARV" simply means US
Army Republic of Vietnam. (If Mr. Brooks was indeed a truck
driver in Vietnam he should not be ashamed of that duty, I know
many a truck driver that saw combat - oh wait a minute! Mr.
Brooks claims that only those with infantryman MOS's ever saw
combat in Vietnam! But then we all know that Mr. Brooks is about
as accurate on Vietnam as he is on most things, nada, zip.
If you have an opinion Gary you should be able to post it and
express it without suffering the kind of personal attacks you
have been subjected to by the BS Brooks Cyberstalking Gang.
If you note, Mr. Brooks has suddenly become quite "conciliatory"
in this post toward your views after he attempted to defame you
and your profession in a previous post. I believe the following
post is the reason he has suddenly become "conciliatory." If
you want him to be brought to justice, you should keep a record
of all of his personal attacks. You can join my group or not and
still send me a copy of any personal attack Mr. Brooks or his
gang members launch against you, several others have done
precisely that.
Doug Says: I doubt seriously if someone that is clearly leading
a smear merchant and cyberstalking gang on USENET has any
credibility in respect to chiding anyone about their posts.
(Note that Nigel Brooks has had not less than seven web sites
forcibly removed due to his repeated and flagrant violation of
ISP Terms of Service in respect to publishing lies, libel,
defamation, fraud and smear campaigns). People have a right to
post their opinions without suffering a personal attack for doing
so. What I see below is typical Nigel Brooks lies and
distortions. Brooks says that Gary is "beyond help." and Brooks
went on to say about Gary: "His sarcastic postings are evidence
of a truly sick mind."
How would Brooks know anything about what he is stating as a
false fact about Gary? Is Brooks claiming "mind reading skills"
yet again??? Note that Nigel Brooks does not have a medical
degree, is considered by many to be a complete and total idiot
that cannot respond to a post without including personal attacks,
and consequently his "statement of fact" about Gary having a
"truly sick mind" represents nothing more than a typical Nigel
Brook's lie, distortion and fraud. I assure you, Mr. Brooks
does not have a medical degree, and his competency to even debate
without using vitriol, diatribe, false accusations and personal
attacks is in extreme doubt by many.
Brooks goes on to attack Gary with: "He desperately wishes for
folks to respond to his stuff, and it probably
troubles him greatly when they don't."
Again we see Brooks using his "self serving mind reading skills"
to fraudulently proclaim what Gary, thinks, wants and what
troubles him. How can such information be taken seriously from
someone that has a clear and unmistakable past history of
posting lies, distortions, false accusations and fraud about many
different posters?
Then Mr. Brooks attacks Gary's profession and denigrates his
professional services just because he posted something Mr. Brooks
did not agree with;
"I'm not too sure that I'd want someone with his warped views
checking out
my eyeballs."
Nigel Brooks
This post is a classic Nigel Brooks smear job replete with
personal attacks, lies, distortions, self serving mind reading,
false medical diagnoses, and attacks on a man's profession that
are designed to harm a victim of such libel both emotionally
and economically.
Gary should keep track of all these personal attacks coming from
Mr. Brooks, and join our newsgroup dedicated to bringing
cyberstalkers to justice. I invite him to do so.
Not only does such personal attacks that Mr. Brooks and gang
members normally use to respond to posts stifle honest debate,
it drives people away from this newsgroup that have honest
questions and opinions - questions and opinions I invite as such
leads to different perspectives, persuasion to a different point
of view, and enlightened conversation and debate.
I do not believe the postings on this NG are meant to be
controlled and censored by a group of psychopathic criminals that
are bent on using the criminal act of cyberstalking to drive
honest posters away. (Note that cyberstalking and harassment on
USENET is now considered a criminal act in most states). In my
opinion those psychopaths with inferiority complexes so deep and
troubling no doubt gain some perverse satisfaction from using
personal attacks, cyberstalking, lies, fraud, distortions and
false accusations against those they disagree with. But their
personal, psychopathic and pathetic need to harm the emotions
and professions of others should not allowed to control and
dictate to those that wish to post honestly and invite honest
debate about their opinions.
garag...@gmail.com
I've never been much of a joiner but, inter alia, you write, "If you
note, Mr. Brooks has suddenly become quite 'conciliatory' in this post
toward your views after he attempted to defame you and your profession
in a previous post. I believe the following post is the reason he has
suddenly become conciliatory.'"
Overall, I think Brooks is pretty sincere and actually believes he's a
true patriot and he believes I really hate America. I'd probably enjoy
having a beer and a laugh with him. That he comes off, sincerely or no,
as somewhat blind to the pitfalls of blind patriotism, or blind to the
patriotism of black humor, isn't as much the issue as the fact Brooks
apparently doesn't enjoy black humor as much as I do. So he often
reacts with malice and fury at my remarks. Such reactions are common
among cowards: they go after a disputant personally when they're at a
loss to address the uncomfortable issues their disputant raises.
But his reaction doesn't offend me, it flatters me. I take it as a
complement that I've totally disarmed him, left him with no arrow in
his quivver but the missile of ad hominem. That he lets others see how
grasping and inappropriate he can be isn't really my problem now, is
it? It's more than a little amusing that he apparently doesn't grasp
that it's his.
I don't need to know that, for all his brave talk, he never once served
in real combat. I don't need to know what else he's said about himself
that isn't true. All I need to know about him is how he manages the
cards I've deal him and in that, he gives himself away.
Gary
redjacket
Kewl.
I'd go watch if I lived on the wrong coast.
Dang it !
See Gary, Nigel has gone through all the harassment training, you do not see
that.
What do you think they do for those months in Boot or Basic ?
They just told them to shoot gooks ?
Well, you must be right.
How else did all those folks die in a war, right ?
Bad language did not do it all alone.
"garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149038382....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Mac
<DGVR...@COMCAST.NET> spewed forth yet more of his self-serving
blathering codswallop:
If you have a free hour and wish to learn a little something regarding
the Doug Grant who claims to have gone to O.C.S. and to be a NCO
"Butter-Bar"... go to GOOGLE.
Put in the name Doug Grant and examine how many NewsGroups over how
many years he has spewed forth his many and varied stories.
Put in Doug Grant and "Lawsuit" and read how many times, over how
many years, and how many people he has threatened with lawsuits.
Put in Doug Grant and Casino's and read the Judge's decision regarding
how FATUOUS Doug Grant has been, and how his suit clearly tried to
create a Serbian bog... etc., etc.
Read the decision of the Appeal Court.
PUT IN THE NAME "Doug Grant" and "FOIA" and note how ballistic that
poor critter goes when a person has had enough of the Doug Grant
antics and puts in an FOIA to compare the stories with the Reality of
the government documents... and then compare the stories with the
Reality.
---Mac
redvet
>
> Nigel Brooks wrote:
>> I presume that it is no coincidence that you chose to post this kind of
>> stuff around Memorial day. May we expect the same on Veterans day?
>>
>> How about MLK day - do you troll newsgroups which might be associated
>> with
>> civil rights?
>>
>> Labor day - troll the teamsters newsgroup.
>>
>> The possibilities are endless Gary old chap.
>>
>> But you better watch out if there is ever a Bikers Day holiday - those
>> folks
>> probably won't be as forgiving.
>>
>> --
>> Nigel Brooks
>>
>
> Nigel,
>
> Thanks ever so much for your thoughtful response. But you didn't
> answer. Where has American courage gone when we're no longer allowed to
> kill noncombatant women and babies in cold blood? I mean are we serious
> about human rights and freedom or not, fer chrissakes?
>
> There was a time when America was man enough to do that - as per the
> following AP dispatch. Why not now?
>
> Gary
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.war.vietnam/msg/9823ba10d82cb980?as_umsgid=1148952461.9...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
Aloha Gary,
Before I decided to throw togather a post about the Hanly and Mendoza story
I checked on the chance you had picked it up. My interest began in 1999 when
the story first broke in the U.S. If you haven't yet, you should check out
the posts in this newsgroup on the subject . "No Gun Ri" should pull it
up - redvet
redjacket
!
There is a real MOH man about to get his award taken away.
"redvet" <red...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:127qe4i...@corp.supernews.com...
i2p6 west
> - I'm just as outraged as you are
Ha Ha Ha!!!
Son, you have made posts advocating police torture of American citizens suspected of crime.
i.e. you're a rightwing asshole pretending "outrage".
Ha!
Greg Linscott
that Mr. Brooks does often, and I am not surprised that he is
once again posting a personal attack, which is something that he
does often for the purpose of causing me emotional harm and
distress."
:)
Greg Linscott
served
in real combat."
:)
Nigel Brooks
> Doug,
>
> I've never been much of a joiner
Go ahead and join - it'll be Doug, his imaginary friends and you.
> but, inter alia, you write, "If you
> note, Mr. Brooks has suddenly become quite 'conciliatory' in this post
> toward your views after he attempted to defame you and your profession
> in a previous post. I believe the following post is the reason he has
> suddenly become conciliatory.'"
>
> Overall, I think Brooks is pretty sincere and actually believes he's a
> true patriot and he believes I really hate America.
Gary it simply is not true that I think you hate America. It seems rather
obvious to me that you enjoy many of the things that this country has to
offer. If you hated it you would undoubtedly move elsewhere.
>I'd probably enjoy
> having a beer and a laugh with him.
That would of course depend on whether or not politics, religion, or the JFK
assassination was discussed.
>That he comes off, sincerely or no,
> as somewhat blind to the pitfalls of blind patriotism, or blind to the
> patriotism of black humor, isn't as much the issue as the fact Brooks
> apparently doesn't enjoy black humor as much as I do.
Sure I enjoy black humour Gary. I just think that folks like Eddie Murphy
went overboard when they started injecting profanity into their routines.
>So he often
> reacts with malice and fury at my remarks. Such reactions are common
> among cowards: they go after a disputant personally when they're at a
> loss to address the uncomfortable issues their disputant raises.
I'm hurt Gary. Why in the world would you call me a coward? I just find
that a lot of what you write or regurgitate is offensive. I still really do
not understand why someone in your position, having absolutely no
perceivable empathy or relationship with the military or Veterans would
choose to post in these groups.
It just seems like trolling to me Gary. Perhaps you find some perverse
pleasure in it, but to be perfectly honest I don't get it. It seems
somewhat akin to trolling a newsgroup dedicated to members of the medical
profession and posting information about the various misdeeds members of
that profession have done.
Nigel
garag...@gmail.com
with the military. For now, suffice it to say that while I may have
never donned a uniform, I've served my country at least as much as many
who have including, I suspect, you.
> It just seems like trolling to me Gary. Perhaps you find some perverse
> pleasure in it, but to be perfectly honest I don't get it. It seems
> somewhat akin to trolling a newsgroup dedicated to members of the medical
> profession and posting information about the various misdeeds members of
> that profession have done.
>
Oh, you don't think I've done that, too - laid out information about
the various misdeeds of members of the medical profession? I've done it
as a member of medical ethics committees in hospitals and medical
societies; I even exposed the misdeeds of the neurosurgery professor
who was the chairman of the department where Cyril Wecht's son did his
neurosurgery residency. Please don't hink that because you're a Vietnam
vet that you're somehow special or exempt.
Gee, how you misunderestimate me, pal.
Gary
garag...@gmail.com
Greg Linscott wrote:
> "But lying about me is something
> that Mr. Brooks does often, and I am not surprised that he is
> once again posting a personal attack, which is something that he
> does often for the purpose of causing me emotional harm and
> distress."
>
>
> :)
>
Nigel does these things when reason escapes him and emotions take over.
It's not your problem.
Gary
garag...@gmail.com
As it happens, I've followed this story since it first appeared and I
have a file on it that dates to the 1999 reports. As expected, the
Pentagon whitewashed the whole thing and now, luckily, the Pentagon's
cover-up has been blown.
Gary
DGVREIMAN
Hear Hear. I noticed the same when Brooks attacks my colorful
military service with his lies, distortions and false
accusations/interpretations. Probably due to his own military
service being a very unpleasant and humiliating experience for
him. Lots of lower ranks hated Sergeants, and I suspect Brooks
falls well into that category. But are there really issues so
"uncomfortable" as to warrant personal attack after personal
attack - regardless of the mental ineptitude of the responder?
Attacking you and me, and others with personal attacks such as is
the hallmark of Nigel Brooks and some of his gang members does
not lend credence to his arguments- such vitriol portrays only an
unethical and small mind at work. If he would respond in an
honest debate, he, or you, or I, or others reading these threads
just might learn something. Or at least be able to empathize
with a different perspective than our own. Which is what debate
is all about - and such debate can be rewarding - even if you
oppose the ideology being expressed.
>
> But his reaction doesn't offend me, it flatters me. I take it
> as a
> complement that I've totally disarmed him, left him with no
> arrow in
> his quivver but the missile of ad hominem. That he lets others
> see how
> grasping and inappropriate he can be isn't really my problem
> now, is
> it? It's more than a little amusing that he apparently doesn't
> grasp
> that it's his.
Doug Says: At first I might agree, but after the amount of
personal attacks, threats of violence, lies, distortions, and
obvious cyberstalking and defamation exceeds 1300 posts, replete
with forgeries from the FBI, false accusations that you are a
"Child Molester" and then sending all of those forgeries, lies
and such to your fellow colleagues, I suspect you just might
change your mind, and that is where the Brooks gang is going if
you continue to post your opinions contrary to theirs.
They want you to (1) either agree with their false accusations,
or (2) leave the newsgroup.
>
> I don't need to know that, for all his brave talk, he never
> once served
> in real combat. I don't need to know what else he's said about
> himself
> that isn't true. All I need to know about him is how he manages
> the
> cards I've deal him and in that, he gives himself away.
>
> Gary
Doug Says: Yes Brooks does give himself away as incapable to
formulate a coherrant reply to issues with his constant use of
personal attacks and false accusations, not to mention his false
claims and other nonsense. But when those unethical traits are
combined with a gang operation, and such attacks start to number
in the thousands of defaming lies, then you will suffer the fate
of many that tried to simply ignore such outrageous lack of
ethics and fraud these cyberstalking gangs resort to.
Take a minute to review the following sites and you will see
what is in store for you from the BS Brooks gang if you continue
to post your honest opinions.
Anti Multiple Stalker (Citizen Harassment Group)
Information and Support Site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Organized Stalking is a well-organized, occult form of covert
harassment used against an individual. It is done by large groups
of people who systematically & repeatedly harass individuals."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Community-based harassment is a grown-up version of school yard
bullying. Multiple individuals within a community participate in
the harassment and stalking of a single individual. However,
rather than attack a victim physically, techniques are used to
undermine a person psychologically. This can be far more damaging
than a physical attack because not only is it very hard to prove,
but it is extremely traumatizing for the victim. (Also known as
cause stalking or gang stalking)."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Dai Uy
"DGVREIMAN" <DGVR...@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
> "garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149038382....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> > Doug,
> >
> > Such reactions are common among cowards: they go after a
> > disputant personally when they're at a loss to address the
> > uncomfortable issues their disputant raises.
>
> Hear Hear. I noticed the same when Brooks attacks my colorful
> military service with his lies, distortions and false
> accusations/interpretations.
With all due respect, I hereby repost a few selections of
Doug's modest usenet messages concerning his "colorful"
military service:
***** Doug (Tm)'s "Colorful" Military Service *****
Doug Grant (Tm) Interrogator:
Feb 9, 2002
I personally captured, interrogated and imprisoned NVA regulars
on several occasions in Vietnam We maintained several POW camps
in Vietnam for NVA and Viet Cong troops. The most known and
noteworthy (and one I delivered some of my prisoners to) was
located in Can Tho.
May 10, 2004
In truth I have witnessed several interrogation methods during
war, and I cannot think of a single method that does not
humiliate or terrify the prisoner. Cooking fake babies in front
of female prisoners worked well in the village
interrogations(the baby was switched for a look alike doll that
really was a piece of beef). (This tactic also probably was the
basis for the Commies claiming that GI's "ate Vietnamese
babies." ) http://tinyurl.com/n7pap
Doug Grant (Tm) almost a Prisoner of War:
Feb 26, 2006
Sadly, and in memory of our POW's (I was almost one of them)
that Kerry abandoned, I say we should never forget, never rest,
never allow traitors like Hanoi John Kerry and his ilk to hide
in and destroy our Government from within.
Doug Grant (Tm) eyewitness to events which occurred in the
previous year:
Oct 6, 2001
When I was in Vietnam, stationed in Can Tho I witnessed two
ambulances drive through our main gate, calmly drive to our
airport, drive on the tarmac and while driving down the tarmac
Viet Cong contained in the ambulances shot each plane on the
tarmac with a M-79 grenade launcher. Then when they were
through, they simply drove out the back gate and down the road.
This was a "drive-by" on an airport! These six or seven Viet
Cong, equipped with simple weapons (that look like big
shotguns) destroyed an entire American Army air base in about
five minutes! http://tinyurl.com/ox9ru
Mar 22, 2005
You were not at Can Tho, I was, I did not see it all of course
as I was pretty far away and if I remember correctly the attack
occurred at night. I vaguely remember watching the explosions
on the air field from my vantage point on top of the Melton
Hotel, with Biocs. Most of my information about the attack on
the Can Tho airfield came from the MP's I spoke with later.
http://tinyurl.com/ryjoj
Doug Grant (Tm) trainer of troops that arrived in country
a year before he did:
Apr 1, 2002
(in response to a post from a person who indicated he had
served in the 101st Airborne Division)
It sounds like you are an Engineer. I helped train the 101 when
they arrived at Cu Chi RVN, but that was way before your time.
http://tinyurl.com/epnk2
Doug Grant (Tm) wounded, hospitalized, almost died, no
Purple Heart -- no explanation! (Fragging?)
May 21, 1998
I think I was wrong a few times. I certainly was wrong when I
volunteered for my second tour in Vietnam. And I was wrong to
think the VC that fired at me would not hit me.
http://tinyurl.com/m8s5r
Sep 12, 2001
War is a terrible thing to behold. I know, I fought in one for
a very long time, and I was wounded and almost lost my life.
http://tinyurl.com/nqu74
Oct 24, 2001
I abhor war, having fought and wounded in Vietnam. I know its
ugly face....close up. http://tinyurl.com/lz4rk
May 27, 2002
And yes, I fought for my country, and I killed the enemy and I
was wounded in the process. http://tinyurl.com/rkokv
Aug 26, 2005
I *nearly* lost my life several times in Vietnam and in Korea,
and if you were in Vietnam in an Infantry unit I would say that
would apply to you as well. However, I was hospitalized for the
wound/injury long before, and the Purple Heart was supposed to
be processed but I left RVN on Emergency leave and I later
found out that my CO failed to request the medal like he
promised to do
Doug Grant (Tm) Expert on Viet Cong and their typical
terrorist tactics:
Sep 12, 2001
I fought terrorism for two tours in Vietnam, and belonged to a
CounterTerrorism unit, that was trained specifically to defeat
the Viet Cong, as opposed to the NVA regulars. At that time I
and other members of my team were considered Experts on
Terrorism, as it applied to the Viet Cong and their typical
terrorist tactics. http://tinyurl.com/n9s7b
Oct 6, 2001
The Viet Cong were also experts with mortars. They would steal
trucks, and while driving down a road fire several mortar
rounds from those moving trucks all at different altitudes. By
firing in this manner the mortar rounds would all fall in the
same general area within about ten seconds of each other.
http://tinyurl.com/rwdfn
Doug Grant (Tm) Personnel Specialist - Manpower expert:
Nov 9, 2002
First, if VP Cheney had been drafted, he would have not fought
in any war as draftees as a general rule were *never* sent to
Vietnam, and if they went with a complete unit call, they
*never* were placed in a combat role.
http://tinyurl.com/rjl74
Doug Grant (Tm) expert:
Apr 26, 2002
2&1/2 tours in Vietnam, one tour in Korea, and one tour in
South America probably makes me an expert on war and terrorism"
http://tinyurl.com/s2rab
May 26, 2002
All instincts and my entire base of knowledge of being a former
expert on CBR (Chemical Biological and RadioactiveWarfare)
tells me this is true. http://tinyurl.com/mk9gb
Doug Grant (Tm) iron jawed, ass kicking, leader of
men grief stricken over the loss of what's-his-name Olsen, er
Olson ,or...:
Nov 13, 2001
That night we departed out of the 1st of the 5th Mech area of
Cu Chi, 25th Infantry Division, and we were promptly ambushed
before we even reached our parameter wire. We were ambushed
*inside* of our own parameter! The enemy knew exactly where we
were going, and when we would arrive. I lost two men that
night. Sp4 Olsen was killed and Sp5 Nelson was badly wounded
http://tinyurl.com/ln6hb
Dec 23, 2004
This event took place in June 1968, at the 25th Infantry
Division s Cu Chi Base Camp, Republic of Vietnam, and the
events then are very similar to what happened in Mosul:
On the date mentioned above, I was ordered to attend a strategy
and mission meeting in a mess hall at Headquarters Company,
25th Infantry Division. During that meeting a Major outlined a
battle plan for that very night. Several companies of men were
to form at a parade ground, and trucks would take the men to a
debarkation point in the base camp located at the 1st of the
5th Mech. area. From that point, which was close to our bunker
line, the large force would leave the base camp through the
bunker line and surprise the VC that were believed to be
surrounding the Cu Chi base camp.
During the entire presentation the Vietnamese civilian
employees that the Army had hired to perform KP duty
(KP=Kitchen Police) were obviously listening intently to the
Major s battle plan.
That night we massed at our first debarkation point without
incident, then we mounted trucks and they took us to the
aforementioned 1st of the 5th Mech. area, where we dismounted
and formed a long column. The column then started moving toward
the Cu Chi base camp Bunker Line. I suspected an ambush as soon
as we cleared the bunker line, but to my dismay, I was wrong.
Long before we even arrived at our own interior bunker line our
column started receiving mortar and unbelievably, grenade fire!
The VC were waiting for us not *outside* our base perimeter,
but *inside* where they popped out of tunnels and threw
grenades and fired mortars point blank. When the attack
occurred, I spotted two VC that were firing mortars from a
latrine and I fired back at them killing one and thereby
disabling that mortar pit.
(However, the damage was done. We suffered dozens of
casualties, two of which were men assigned to my team. Sp4
Olson received a mortal wound in his liver that night, and Sp4
Nelson was wounded in the arm. (Nelson if you are reading this
by chance email me). (
Due to the ambush, the entire mission was scrubbed, and when I
returned to my company I immediately went to Headquarters,
looked up that fucking Major that delivered our battle plan in
front of enemy spies, and while he was sitting behind his desk
(with a glass cover) I asked him if now he understood what the
fuck I was talking about? The Major calmly replied "Well, that
is what you get paid your combat pay for." At that point I took
my helmet off and slammed in down on his desk, breaking his
glass cover, got about an inch from his face, and told him that
his life was in jeopardy from his own men, and that is what he
gets paid his combat pay for! (
The next day the Major was gone. Reassigned. But the damage had
already been done.
Mar 4, 2005
Look again Nigel, you are lying or stupid, one or the other. He
was hit on that mission I was on and as I described, which
hospital he was in when he eventually died I do not remember,
but I do know where he was hit that night, and I also know his
name is on the Wall Nigel. Stop lying and distorting the
truth, now you are even trying to denigrate a brave dead
solider and his family.
Mar 5, 2005
Much later, I had a few beers with Nelson later on a Vung Tau
beach when we were both on R&R and Nelson also was under the
impression that Olsen died of his wounds. But because Brooks
could not find a record of Olsen's death at Cu Chi, Brooks
tried to denigrate this true story. Olsen was medevacted out
like all soldiers with extremely serious wounds were. I don t
know where they sent him, but probably to Long Binh, Japan or
to the States.
Doug Grant (Tm) uncovers the existence of the tunnels
of Cu Chi:
Dec 22, 2004
One night in May of 1968, at the 25th Infantry Base Camp at Cu
Chi, Vietnam.................. I went to S2 (Division
Intelligence) and told them I believed the enemy had dug
trenches under our base camp. Their reaction was analogous to
me throwing a basket of rattlesnakes on their desks. They
howled, blustered, threatened, denied and told me I was crazy,
and effectively ordered me to stop making such ridiculous
claims. So I went over their and went to the 25th Infantry
Division Commander and begged him to at least dig out that
single side hole to find the tunnel. He refused and ordered me
to not continue to claim that the VC had dug tunnels under our
base camp. The Division commander's adjutant said that my
ridiculous claims would undermine the morale of our troops.
However, I persisted with my claims, and lo and behold, about
three months later I was suddenly transferred to the Can Tho
region of Vietnam and out of the 25th Infantry Division for
good.
Had the commanding officers of the 25th Infantry Division
listened to me back in May 1968, thousands of American lives
would have been saved. But they did not listen because if they
had admitted to being so negligent as to allow the enemy to dig
tunnels under our base camps, they (the commanding officers)
would have been relieved of their commands and even perhaps
court-martialed.
Dec 23, 2004
One former member of the 25th Infantry division even wrote a
book about "The Tunnels at Cu Chi" there were so many tunnels
found in that area after the war.
Doug Grant (Tm) multi-toured (2, 2 1/2, 3 tour) Viet
Nam veteran:
Dec 6, 1998
I am not the type to quit or be intimidated. In fact, after my
three tours in Vietnam, I would say it is impossible to
intimate me into doing anything.
Oct 15, 2001
Let me tell you as someone that spent 2&1/2 tours of combat
duty in Vietnam
Aug 9, 2005
I was assigned an 11B MOS when I first entered the Army and
held that MOS as a primary or a secondary MOS for the duration
of my time in the US Army.
Dec 17, 2001
After 2&1/2 tours in Vietnam, a Tour in South America, and a
Tour in Korea, I can tell you that I cannot think of a single
day that a "crime against humanity" was not committed, by one
side or the other.
Mar 7, 2002
I spent two tours of duty in Vietnam, and one tour in Korea
advising Korean troops on how to fight the Viet Cong and NVA I
also spent a tour of duty in South America fighting terrorists.
pr 4, 2002
During a time of war nobody "mindlessly" follows anyone. I have
been involved in combat for many years. In Korea, Vietnam
(2&1/2) tours, and in South America
Doug Grant (Tm) highly decorated self effacing modest
hero:
Dec 20, 2001
"Moreover, when I was a Platoon Sergeant (before I went to OCS
..Officer Candidate School) I and my other senior NCO's would
*never* blindly follow a battle plan contrived by G-3 or S-3
(figured out by Majors and up). If we had, I and all other
teams I know would be dead." "I have never seen a commissioned
officer receive a medal that was not handed to him by the
actions of his NCO's. And that includes me. The decorations I
received as a Platoon Sergeant are real and were because of
what I did. The ones I received later I did not consider real
or deserved, as they were not earned directly by me, but earned
because of the deeds of those under my command."
Doug Grant (Tm) every American engagement since the
Korean War -- and then some:
May 15, 2002
I was at Inchon (not during the Korean war) but I visited
Inchon when I was in Korea training ROK Marines to go to
Vietnam. I was never in Hue, most of my operations were in the
Iron Triangle or in the Delta, or outside of Vietnam in "other
surrounding countries."
Jun 8, 2002
"Josh" I fought in Nicaragua I know that Jungle well.
Jan 9, 2003
In respect to your claim of "carpet bombing" Cambodia, well dum
dum, I was in Cambodia during the Vietnam war and the only
"Carpet Bombing" occurred on the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Feb 14, 2004
I spent two tours in Vietnam, the first one with the 25th
Infantry Division, at Tay Ninh and Cu Chi, and the other with a
LSA unit in Can Tho
May 12, 2002
Fidel announced in Iran that he was going to help the
Iraniansbring "America to its knees" and Fidel has been caught
red-handed giving Biochemical weapons to our enemies for the
specific use against America. Now does that sound like someone
we should attack? Duh. When we do Cuba will fall in ten days or
less. (I fought Cuban soldiers personally, they actually ran
faster than the Viet Cong...if that is possible.)
Mar 2, 2005
I served 15 months in Vietnam, and 12 months in Korea, of which
some of that time was also spent in Vietnam as I was involved
in training ROK Special Forces troops.
Dec 23, 2001
Joe, the sad truth is the Brits are right. I went through three
Butter Bars during my first tour in Vietnam (as a SFC) then I
went to OCS and returned as a butter bar myself. Half of my
graduating class in OCS Ft. Benning ended up dead or wounded.
Doug Grant (Tm) Butter Bar Platoon Leader:
Mar 26, 2006
....and in Vietnam, a Butter Bar was a Platoon leader, not
always a 2nd Lt and often was a NCO ("B.B.") was the actual
slang - offsetting L.T.) (In Vietnam a "Brown Bar" was a 2nd Lt
- at least it was when I was there). So we are not talking
about back in Ft. Benning, we were talking about in Vietnam, in
my unit, during the Tet offensive
Doug Grant (Tm) combat veteran:
Mar 18, 2002
(I also used Claymores extensively in ambushes, but that has
nothing to do with this story.)
Mar 18, 2002
Question - Did you kill anyone?
As many VC and NVA as I could. (1803 estimated BC in 2.5 tours
with only 3 wounded in my team). It is too bad however that we
did not kill more.
Apr 21, 2002
Second I have killed the enemy with Guns, Knives, Claymore
mines, Grenades, Wire, Artillery and Air Attacks, strategy and
assigning men to combat positions for battle, like most
military team leaders did in Vietnam
Dec 22, 2004
I have experienced 122mm rockets' land within 15 feet of me
when I was fighting in Vietnam, and although they can do a
tremendous amount of damage, they cannot produce the volume nor
type of shrapnel that was produced in that Mosul Mess Tent
slaughter.
Mar 28, 2002
No, (1) I do not live in a fantasy world, apparently you do. If
you want a few names of battles in which the Media was on site
and broadcasting our every move, it would harder to list the
ones in which the media was NOT present in Vietnam than listing
the ones in which our battle plans were being broadcast openly.
(1) Hobo Woods (2) Au Shaw Valley (3) Tet 1968 (4) Battle for
Hue (5) May Iron Triangle Offensive 1969...etc Those were some
of the battles I *personally* was involved, and I *personally*
watched and heard the "newsboys" broadcast our tactics
Doug Grant (Tm) cunning linguist:
Dec 9, 2002
I have lived and all over the world, (and fought wars in many
parts of it) I speak five languages, and I will tell you now
you are wrong.
Doug Grant (Tm) and General Clark:
Sep 19, 2003
I knew General Clark, I met him once in Vietnam and again in
Aberdeen Proving Ground (I believe it was he at Aberdeen but I
am not positive) and I am sure he will never remember me, and
for that I am thankful.
Sep 6, 2004
I was introduced to General Clark, and I answered several of
his questions - and therefore, I knew the man. Of course I did,
he inspected my section at Aberdeen Proving Ground.
Doug Grant (Tm) Top Secret Crypto Cross-border Assassin
and Intelligence Operative:
Aug 18, 2002
The American military victories in the field and the bombing
campaign was why the North Vietnamese surrendered and signed
the Paris Peace Accords. I was personally in attendance in Long
Binh when the top secret meeting was held discussing exactly
how this was going to be accomplished, and how we were going to
turn the defense over to the South Vietnamese after the Paris
Accords were signed
Mar 10, 2003
Chirpy also tried to claim my records were destroyed in a fire
that occurred in 1973, some were, but most were not and
congressman Andrews (New Jersey) was able to at least obtain
and declassify some of my records in 1994 that were being held
in a Classified section long enough so they could be sent to me
- copies of which I still have.
Mar 3, 2005
Some of my missions and tours were classified
Apr 9, 2003
I will tell you something that you can verify. I have a top
secret crypto clearance (I should say had but the documents I
signed follow me for life)
Mar 3, 2005
In 1996, and due to the US Army declassifying some of my
missions and tours of duty (after 30 years) I asked the
Department of the Army and the Board for the Correction of
Military Records to review my discharge records and make
corrections. Which they did. I have that document from the
Department of the Army in front of me as I write this, and I am
willing to scan it (or otherwise reproduce it) in the part that
states my military service in Vietnam. (The classified sections
will be blacked out).
Oct 18, 2001
(I realize covertly eliminating opposition . . . especially
religious or political leaders . . . is not supposed to happen
. . . but I happen to know personally that it does. I spent too
many tours in Vietnam not to know this fact. In fact, let me
say without elaborating, that I *absolutely know* that we have
done this in the past.) http://tinyurl.com/n2lam
Mar 19, 2002
So what does the CIA have to do with students attending
classes, passing tests and getting degrees? I will tell you,
absolutely nothing! Moreover, the entity that was doing campus
investigation during the 60's was Military Intelligence, NOT
the CIA. Moreover, MI detachments were concentrating on schools
with SDS branches and other subversive organizations. My last
assignment in the military involved that very issue, and in
fact if you would like to research it, when it was revealed
that MI was doing the Campus investigations there was
considerable backlash from the liberal democrats.
Apr 1, 2002
The reason I asked is I worked for General Young for awhile in
the 7th Engineer Battalion in Frankfurt Germany, (the I.G.
Farben Bldg). I was not in the Engineers but they needed some
special intelligence services there for a while.
Dec 12, 2002
Further, if you want to debate the SDS Jim, you have picked the
wrong man. I have *volumes* of information on the SDS as I
helped debrief some of the undercover operatives involved in
penetrating that organization.
Dec 13, 2002
In respect to my involvement in S-2 and G-2, in several
different theaters and units, my records speak for themselves
Jim. Like I said, due to all those lawsuits, my past is an open
book.
Dec 13, 2002
I worked for the US Army, and I helped debrief US Army
personnel that were operating undercover for the MI branch of
the US Army.
Dec 22, 2002
I personally helped with debriefings that indicated that a
million dollars was delivered to the Pennsylvania chapters of
the SDS, and that regular sums of money were being provided by
the Russians to SDS members.
Oct 22, 2002
If the listening devices are located in a wooded area, then we
could also pick up human footsteps. These footsteps can be
easily detected off of these devices, and my operators in
Vietnam could tell me how many VC, and almost what they were
carrying. (I am sure the listening devices are much more
sophisticated now compared to those we used in Vietnam.)
Doug Grant (Tm) blows his Delta Force cover:
Jun 17, 2002
Doug Says: I doubt if I could confuse him more than he already
is...but you do have a point. I was going to post the fact that
Southern Command recently moved from Panama (where they have
been located for about 40 years) to Puerto Rico. I also
researched some of my old documents and I found some
information from the time I was in Central/South America that I
believe are not classified...such as my old health instructions
for Delta Force personnel when in the Jungle, and stuff like
that.
Doug Grant (Tm) clarifies some of his questionable
postings:
Apr 14, 2005
I have also pointed out that my account was hacked, we believe
that Google s archive was also hacked, (I am waiting to hear
back from Google on that issue) and several people that were
associated with me (two were Vietnam Vets other than me) were
posting under my account under the name of Doug Grant (Tm). We
also used different typists and secretaries that typed
information from dictation - and mistakes were made and words
were omitted or placed out of context. For me to go back and
try to determine who really said what, when, in *tens of
thousands of posts* is a very formidible task, but I will try
starting with what I *know* I wrote as the post corresponds
with documents in my Word Processor.
.....now that's colorful!
-Dai Uy sends
"You cannot claim you love the horde but hate Attila!"
-Doug Grant (Tm) 2006 http://tinyurl.com/hs54z
Yaketyak
POIUYT
"DGVREIMAN" <DGVR...@COMCAST.NET> wrote in message
news:YvCdnTVIp_-...@comcast.com...
Mac
<DGVR...@COMCAST.NET> blathered yet more codswallop:
Investigate for yourself this person calling itself Doug Grant or Doug
Grant vonReiman.
Put in the name Doug Grant and lawsuit and do a GOOGLE.
Put in the name Doug Grant and lawsuit and/or casino's and do a
GOOGLE.
Put in the name Doug Grant and do a GOOGLE.
Look at all of the "interesting" military stories he has expounded
upon over the years on several NewsGroups.
Read his stories regarding Latin America.
Or watching an ambulance entering an airfield and shooting up
airplanes.
Or his being "wounded" by VC fire but not having a Purple Heart...
Or his being a NCO "Butter-Bar"... and his claims regarding O.C.S.
And his claims of more than 1,800 VC killed, and feasting upon some of
the bodies...
AND THEN, read his antics when a person finally does a FOIA and the
government papers come back and there is quite a difference between
what Doug Grant claims and the reality of the government documents,
including time-frames, duty stations, being a Personnel Sergeant...
etc., etc.
Investigate for yourself.
---Mac
redvet
Aloha Gary,
I wonder how those in A.W.V., in '99 and 2000, feel now. Do you think there
will be forth coming apologies? Yeah, probably not... I remember when the
troglodytes and war pigs would cackle My Li was an aberration. Or that 'if
there were a large number....wouldn't we have heard about them by now'. The
Vietnamese people and government always been able to provide that list. But
since 'Tiger Force' and the documents unearthed "U. S. Policy Was To Shoot
Korean Refugees" those arguments have become weak. When we read about what
transpired at No Gun Ri...Let's just say, one can detect a pattern .
We are doing a couple of things out here. Primarely the effort is to promote
resistaince. Ann Wright has been travelling the country supporting the indy
flick "No Sir, No Sir". She was recently 'handcuffed and detained for
distributing seditous material' while passing out info of the film at a
military base. Below is a flyer the film put out shortly after the arrest. -
redvet
Get your tickets to "Sir, No Sir!"
Exciting News! By special arrangement with the director, "Sir, No Sir!" will
be screened at the UH-Manoa Architecture Auditorium on June 16, 17 and 18!
This past week we sent out a special alert that Ann Wright had been arrested
for passing out a flyer advertising this film on base. We've since received
more information. While she was handcuffed and detained for distributing
"seditious material" she was not formally charged. An article about her
detention appeared in the Washington Post: Ann Wright. (The same issue also
carries another story and photo on Ann as she got booted out of the
Washington Press Club for heckling Hillary Clinton (who was pledging support
for the war)). Go Ann!
We thought the best response to the military's attempt to label a simple
postcard advertising "Sir, No Sir" as "seditious material" would be to show
the film. For some time we've been urging mainstream theatres to show it
without success (it's being shown in independent theatres across the U.S.).
So we immediately called the director and made special arrangements to show
the film.
This is not your ordinary documentary! It's full title? "If you ever wanted
to end a war...SIR, NO SIR...the suppressed story of the GI movement to end
the war in Vietnam". It has won numerous national and international film
awards!
Ebert and Roeper gave it a "two thumbs up" and said: "Sir! No Sir!" is
squarely on the side of the grunts that either joined the Armed Forces or
were proud to answer the draft, but became disillusioned and walked away.
Men such as Donald Duncan, who resigned form the Green Berets, and Keith
Mather, who took sanctuary in a church in San Francisco and refused to
fight. Some would call them cowards and traitors. Others would say they were
brave patriots who took a stand against a way, and really were proven right
by history. Either way, Thumbs Up." Need we say more about why Ann Wright is
passing out postcards on base to advertise the film? Or why we're so
enthusiastic about showing it in Hawai`i?
"Sir, No Sir" will be shown at the UH-Manoa Architecture Auditorium on
Friday, June 16, at 7 pm; Saturday, June 17 at 7 pm, and again on Sunday
afternoon, June 18, at 3 pm. Pre-sale tickets will be available on Monday,
May 29. Pre-sale tickets will be $5 each; tickets at the door will be $8 ($5
for students and active duty military with ID). We hope to pack the theatre
for each showing.
Order tickets for your family and friends and come as a group. Make out your
check to NION for the number of tickets you want, send your check to: NION,
P. O. Box 11225, Honolulu, HI 96828 and we'll send you the tickets. Tickets
will also be on sale at Revolution Books and AFSC. By ordering your tickets
beforehand you'll save money and will also assure yourself a seat (but we'll
only hold your ticket until 5 minutes after showtime!). Prior sales will
also help us pay the film company for the rights to show the film - which
has to be paid before the screening.
If we pack the theatre for three showings we think there's a good chance
that one of the regular theatres (Art Academy or Varsity, at least) might
set up a regular run of the film. If not we'll go to the director again to
make arrangements to show it elsewhere. But if we don't cover the cost of
the film and venue rental neither will happen. So pull together a party to
go see the film now!
Information on the film is available at: http://www.sirnosir.com.
Organizations are invited to set up tables outside of the film venue. Bring
your own tables. The Architecture Auditorium is directly across from Volcano
Joe's on University Avenue, Manoa campus, on the 2nd floor of the
Architecture Building. There will be signs directing you.
Sponsoring organizations are Not In Our Name, World Can't Wait, AFSC, and
Iraq Veterans Against the War.
redjacket
This ain't Perry Mason who has to win every single time.
You'd get bored and would become a republican if we did.
Enjoy.
"redvet" <red...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:127t0rp...@corp.supernews.com...
i2p6 west
> somewhat akin to trolling a newsgroup dedicated to members of the medical
> profession and posting information about the various misdeeds members of
> that profession have done.
Ha Ha Ha!!!
It's more like a newsgroup about medical practices, but with a small number of
Crybaby Docs unable to understand their malpractice of 40 years ago.
> Nigel, Crybaby Vet
Son, it is you Crybaby Vets who are the trolls. Take it to alt.vietnam.vets.
Ha!
Al Zeller
>
> We are doing a couple of things out here. Primarely the effort is to promote
> resistaince. Ann Wright has been travelling the country supporting the indy
> flick "No Sir, No Sir". She was recently 'handcuffed and detained for
> distributing seditous material' while passing out info of the film at a
> military base. Below is a flyer the film put out shortly after the arrest. -
> redvet
> Get your tickets to "Sir, No Sir!"
Still trying to make up for your lost revenue following the collapse of
the USSR, I see.
Al Zeller
SBC Yahoo
from anyone other then the vet, or his immediate family, if the vet is
deceased. The only info released is a report of separation, stating the
conditions of separation and the rank at the time of separation.
IX. Request Determinations
The National Archives will deny a FOIA request in whole or in part only when
we determine that information may be withheld under one of nine exemptions.
a.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(1): National security classified information.
b.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(2): Related solely to the internal personnel rules and
practices of an agency.
c.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(3): Information specifically exempted from disclosure
by statute.
d.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(4): Trade secrets and commercial or financial
information obtained from a person that is privileged or confidential.
e.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(5): Inter- or intra- agency memoranda protected by
either the deliberative process privilege or the attorney work-product
privileges.
f.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(6): Personnel and medical files and similar files the
disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of
personal privacy.
g.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(7): Certain types of information compiled for law
enforcement purposes.
h.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(8): Information relating to the supervision of
financial institutions.
i.. 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(9): Geological and geophysical information and data,
including maps, concerning wells.
Most of these exemptions apply to only a few of the historical records in
our custody. We will only withhold information when we have a sound legal
basis to do so. In addition if only part of a record must be withheld, the
National Archives will provide access to the rest of the record.
Access to Military Records by the General Public, including genealogists who
are not next-of-kin
Limited information from Official Military Personnel Files is releasable to
the general public without the consent of the veteran or the next-of-kin.
You are considered a member of the general public if you are asking about a
veteran who is no relation to you, or a veteran who is a relative but you
are not the next-of-kin. Next-of-kin is defined as the unremarried widow or
widower, son or daughter, father or mother, brother or sister of the
deceased veteran
http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/public/general-public.html
"DGVREIMAN" <DGVR...@COMCAST.NET> wrote in message
news:YvCdnTVIp_-...@comcast.com...
>
garag...@gmail.com
Yaketyak wrote:
> leftist liars..
>
> try the truth for a change...
>
>
> http://www.army.mil/nogunri/BookCoverJan01Summary.pdf
>
Thanks ever so much for this url, Red!
There are Democrats (as opposed to democrats) who insist that no
scandal involving a Democrat should be investigated by anyone but a
fellow Democrat, lest bias taint findings.
There are Marxists who say that no one but a Stalinist can give an
honest appraisal of Joe Stalin's USSR because non-Stalinists just can't
be objective.
And there are Catholics who still believe the cover-up of priestly
pederasty by "The Church" is nothing more than a wild, anticlerical
conspiracy theory concocted by enemies of The Church, enemies of God,
and that all pedophile allegations should have been vetted by Church
leaders but no one else, to eliminate anti-Catholic bias.
Thus there is nothing surprising that recent reports of a massacre by
G.I.s at Haditha in Iraq are being greeted by pro-Pentagon partisans
with a rolling of eyes. Any such massacre as has been reported, they
say, is unlikely, and most likely the product of the febrile
imaginations of America-haters.
"Wiser heads" advise waiting for the results of an exhaustive, Pentagon
investigation that is now underway. No one outside the Pentagon, they
say, has the detachment to evaluate these charges.
Is it really sensible to trust the Pentatgon's investigating itself -
that is, investigating the alleged massacre at Haditha, Iraq?
It turns out that recently declassified files about a G.I. massacre of
Korean refugees during the Korean War offer guidance. At No Gun Ri, a
1999, Pulitzer-winning, AP dispatch reported that during the Korean
War, U.S. soldiers had cut down Korean refugees who were fleeing North
Korea in cold blood. Predictably, the Pentagon investigated the charge
and put out a lengthy report, still considered the ultimate truth by
Pentagon partisans, excusing the deaths on 'fog of war' grounds. At
least one vet around here swears to that.
For example, on this very newsgroup I started a thread entitled,
"Reports of a marine massacre in Iraq - acts of treason?" Way down,
"Yaketyak" responded, calling skeptics of the govt's account of No Gun
Ri "leftist liars," and he recommended the following Pentagon account:
Quote Yaketyak:
From: Yaketyak - view profile
Date: Wed, May 31 2006 4:14 pm
Email: Yaketyak <yaket...@dontcomeback.gov>
Groups: alt.war.vietnam
leftist liars..
try the truth for a change...
Unquote Y.
And Yakety offered the Pentagon's own report as *the* source to trust,
a report that is available at:
http://www.army.mil/nogunri/BookCoverJan01Summary.pdf
But in view of recently declassified files, even a casual reading of
this Pentagon report demonstrates that our military can't be trusted to
investigate itself any more than Democrats, Stalinists or pedophile
priests can. [What a surprise, eh?]
The following, follow-up AP news dispatch eviscerates the self-serving,
obfuscatory and dishonest, official Pentagon account.
Inter alia, the AP reported:
"Conway-Lanz, a former Harvard historian and now an archivist of the
National Archives' Nixon collection, was awarded the Stuart L. Bernath
Award of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations for
the article on which the book is based.
"'With this additional piece of evidence, the Pentagon report's
interpretation (of No Gun Ri) becomes difficult to sustain,'
Conway-Lanz argues in his book, "Collateral Damage," published this
spring by Routledge.
"The Army report's own list of sources for the 1999-2001 investigation
shows its researchers reviewed the microfilm containing the Muccio
letter. But the 300-page report did not mention it." [See below for the
whole report.]
In other words, faced with the hugely embarrassing revelation that
G.I.s had cut down innocent refugees in cold blood, the Pentagon
circled the wagons, commissioned a very costly investigation that
essentially cleared the Pentagon by conveniently overlooking key
documents that demolished the patriotic spin the Pentagon had put on No
Gun Ri.
This story offers a useful guide as to how to interpret what may well
turn out to be a whitewash of the massacre at Haditha. Why would the
Pentagon Tiger want to change its stripes?
Gary
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060529/D8HTK2CO1.html
U.S. Policy Was to Shoot Korean Refugees
Email this Story
May 29, 2:44 PM (ET)
By CHARLES J. HANLEY and MARTHA MENDOZA
More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document
DGVREIMAN
"SBC Yahoo" <atilla....@liberals.suck.net> wrote in message
news:I6Ffg.89223$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Doug Says: You should also mention that medical records are never
released without the Vet's permission.. And if an exemption is
filed against an FOIA request, such as I did, then several other
records, including personal records or any records that could
involve personal issues will also not be released, and of course,
classified information will not be released. . BS Brooks admits
the US Army withheld not less than 54 documents on me in respect
to his FOIA request on me - that is a lot of documents and they
all could not pertain exclusively to personal information, as Mr.
Brooks is about to find out.
Doug Grant (Tm)
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Mac
redvet
>
> Yaketyak wrote:
>> leftist liars..
>>
>> try the truth for a change...
>>
>>
>> http://www.army.mil/nogunri/BookCoverJan01Summary.pdf
>>
>
> Thanks ever so much for this url, Red!
Rather masterful use the of army's version of No Gun Ri. I'm sending this up
the line...don't be surprised if you see it again attributed to someone
else. Such is the life of prose in cyberspace. - redvet
Political Pagan
Nudnf0YedjV0uLZ...@comcast.com:
> Doug Says: You should also mention that medical records are never
> released without the Vet's permission.. And if an exemption is
> filed against an FOIA request, such as I did, then several other
> records, including personal records or any records that could
> involve personal issues will also not be released, and of course,
> classified information will not be released. . BS Brooks admits
> the US Army withheld not less than 54 documents on me in respect
> to his FOIA request on me - that is a lot of documents and they
> all could not pertain exclusively to personal information, as Mr.
> Brooks is about to find out.
>
> Doug Grant (Tm)
Face it Doogie, all your lies are catching up to you. You are resorting to
feeble lawsuit threats, just like a typical kook. You could have stopped
all this by admitting you lied instead of Nigel getting your records
through the FOIA. Now you are lying again, and your stories become more
unbelievable each week.
Oh, I reposted your post too, so come on, SUE ME.
--
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." - Theodore Roosevelt
DGVREIMAN
> "garYN...@gmail.com" <garag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149038382....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>> Doug,
>>
>> I've never been much of a joiner
>
> Go ahead and join - it'll be Doug, his imaginary friends and
> you.
Doug Says: I don't have any "imaginary friends" Mr. Brooks -
stop lying.
>
>
>> but, inter alia, you write, "If you
>> note, Mr. Brooks has suddenly become quite 'conciliatory' in
>> this post
>> toward your views after he attempted to defame you and your
>> profession
>> in a previous post. I believe the following post is the
>> reason he has
>> suddenly become conciliatory.'"
>>
>
>>That he comes off, sincerely or no,
>> as somewhat blind to the pitfalls of blind patriotism, or
>> blind to the
>> patriotism of black humor, isn't as much the issue as the fact
>> Brooks
>> apparently doesn't enjoy black humor as much as I do.
>
>
>>So he often
>> reacts with malice and fury at my remarks. Such reactions are
>> common
>> among cowards: they go after a disputant personally when
>> they're at a
>> loss to address the uncomfortable issues their disputant
>> raises.
>
> I'm hurt Gary. Why in the world would you call me a coward? I
> just find that a lot of what you write or regurgitate is
> offensive. I still really do not understand why someone in
> your position, having absolutely no perceivable empathy or
> relationship with the military or Veterans would choose to post
> in these groups.
Doug Says: Cowards typically use personal attacks in their posts
because they cannot form enough intelligence to refute or dispute
what some they disagree with says. I Think that was Gary's
point. And boy does he have a point regarding you Brooks!
Moreover, I assume the word "hypocrite" does not mean anything to
Mr. Brooks, as he invites SteveL and all of his alias, who is
clearly not a Vietnam Vet, to post on this NG, and Mr. Brooks
responds to those posts and has invited several others that are
clearly not Vietnam Vets into his smear merchant gang.
> It just seems like trolling to me Gary. Perhaps you find some
> perverse pleasure in it, but to be perfectly honest I don't get
> it. It seems somewhat akin to trolling a newsgroup dedicated
> to members of the medical profession and posting information
> about the various misdeeds members of that profession have
> done.
Doug Says: The above is a classic definition of the SteveL
aliases et al group that Nigel invites to Troll this Newsgroup.
Like I said, "hypocrite" and BS Brooks go hand in hand.
Doug Grant (Tm)
>
>
> Nigel
>
>
SteveL
wrote:
<snip>
>Moreover, I assume the word "hypocrite" does not mean anything to
>Mr. Brooks, as he invites SteveL
Nobody "invites" anyone to post in a newsgroup. It's an off-the-wall
concept that only you, Jay, and Rsmitty have ever expressed. You keep
spouting it and so do your aliases. (It's a telltale sign that a
DGVREIMAN alias is posting - like "conmen" and "hucksters", and
"forged FBI document" among others)
Nobody needs permission to post to a group. Nobody needs to be
"invited". Nobody controls a newsgroup except for moderated ones, but
you don't like those anyway so what's your problem?
And if anyone's continually "inviting" me to post here it is YOU. You
keep mentioning me in a defamatory way in your posts, and of course
that's an "invitation" to respond. Simple fact - though it will escape
your tiny mind.
>and all of his alias
Prove or provide an iota of evidence for once. I do not use aliases. I
don't need to. I just use SteveL. As always. you simply make baseless
charges and think they are proven because you made them (another
telltale sign of your dishonesty and insanity)
If you beg to differ then come up with more than "it's obvious",
because that's not evidence.
>, who is
>clearly not a Vietnam Vet
Never said I was a vet. I am too young. In fact I am on record many
times saying just that, Doogie, often in direct response to you. I
have told you that my *father* is a vet, not me. I have never
pretended to be a Vet, never even implied it. You however have lied
many times that I do just that. It's time you stopped.
>, to post on this NG, and Mr. Brooks
>responds to those posts and has invited several others that are
>clearly not Vietnam Vets into his smear merchant gang.
Point of fact Smitty/Reiman/Profe/Jay. This is alt.war.vietnam, not
alt.vietnam.veterans. Strictly speaking this is not even designed to
be a "veterans" group.
>
>
>> It just seems like trolling to me Gary. Perhaps you find some
>> perverse pleasure in it, but to be perfectly honest I don't get
>> it. It seems somewhat akin to trolling a newsgroup dedicated
>> to members of the medical profession and posting information
>> about the various misdeeds members of that profession have
>> done.
>
>Doug Says: The above is a classic definition of the SteveL
>aliases et al group that Nigel invites to Troll this Newsgroup.
Are you again lying that I make anti-military posts? Got any examples?
Or are they among the self-incriminating posts you claimed I'm
supposed to have deleted from Usenet (!!!) (except you say you took
copies first......) Those posts?
>Like I said, "hypocrite" and BS Brooks go hand in hand.
>
>Doug Grant (Tm)
Like I said, dishonesty, insanity and DGVREIMAN go hand in hand.
>>
>>
>> Nigel
>>
>>
>