Bob and Joe
Stump1
Since Robert DeStatte is still on the payroll; he should be clearing everything
he says on the newsgroups thru the PAO.
While Joe has a little more leeway with being retired, he still cannot comment
without clearance as well.
So, it is obvious who they represent if they are following proceedure.
If they are not, then they are bad bad boys.
------------------
Posted via public news server at http://pubnews.zippo.com
Lee
Stump1 wrote:
>So, it is obvious who they represent if they are following
>proceedure. If they are not, then they are bad bad boys.
And the point was?
Stump1
In article <3577DAB7...@tiac.net>, Lee says...
Lee,
Point is that what is motivating these two good troopers is a check from uncle
sugar to be here. Or, it is possible that they were in DIA for so long they're
not only loyal to debunking the issue, but believe what they write.
Or, all of the above.
In any case, can one truly believe they seek the truth? I can't.
Being a vet myself, and Army 96c4L29, and specifically in "Psyops",,,I can
appreciate good artwork in the field of propaganda. As one artist appreciates
another.
Someday maybe me, and Bob and Joe can all go fishing together. When the truth
finally surfaces.
Lee
Stump1 wrote:
> Point is that what is motivating these two good troopers is a check from uncle
> sugar to be here. Or, it is possible that they were in DIA for so long they're
> not only loyal to debunking the issue, but believe what they write.
> Or, all of the above.
Or some of the above. Or none of the above.
I think you're limiting your options, Stumpl. I've found that
sometimes, in things of which I'm absolutely sure I'm right, I have
to ask myself: "Have you considered the possibility that you might
be wrong?" and think about that.
I think another couple of options are: They might just be right on
some issues, and that they may be telling you exactly what they know
and can legally say.
Now, I have no idea which of our possibilities is most accurate. But
they're ALL possible. And I've probably missed some.
Lee
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Examine each possible answer to a question by inclusion in that
examination of those answers which do not coincide with any
preconceived hypotheses.
One flaw in the search for military intelligence is a rush to "find
the right answer". This is usually the answer which the colonel
(general, Sergeant Major, CWO-4, GG15, SES-4, et. al.) has brought up
in a pre-investigation conference.
Understand that I was an investigator for 23 of my 30 years' military
service; I completed my military service in 1988; and (among other
assignments) had a productive tour at DIA. I have made some errors
in investigations and source handling over that 23 year period; almost
all of my greatest mistakes occurred when I began an investigation
with preconceived assumptions.
I served a tour in Vietnam in DaNang and Hoi An from October 1967 to
October 1968; my detachment's mission included POW recovery
intelligence and I participated in a continuing investigation of
deserter/defectors who joined the NVA/VC. After Vietnam, several of
my tours of duty included investigations of POW/MIA related
activities. I participated in the EGRESS/RECAP debriefings of POW's
at Walter Reed Army Medical Center and Valley Forge VA Hospital.
Also, I lost many friends in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and
other far east places who were executed or killed while they were
involved in intelligence missions. I can name names for those of you
who feel the desire to know.
I do not object to crusaders and zealots; all have a valid place in
our society of free speech. The best thing about the Internet forums
is that my newsreader has a filter. You can filter me just as easily
as I can filter you and I will cordially invite those who may not like
my comments to put me in your kill file.
Someday we will know all the answers. The truth is out there,
whatever that truth may be. It may not be the truth each of us want
but indeed it IS the truth.
Fraternal Regards to all
Lee wrote in message <3578B7BE...@tiac.net>...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNXoAp7ebSZiMaN67EQKRNACffHRo4jQozJAMRrJqYe22/6g2lFUAn3RZ
eqhi7+i+05cFWiBZT+dwTOW+
=dUh7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Owen Lock
If the two are Destatte and Schlatter, isn't it true that Schlatter is
retired, and would get that check anyway? Seems to me that ayone venal
enough to do something merely because he or she was getting a check, would
stop doing it if that person knew the check would come in anyway.
As to Destatte, something tells me that with nearly forty years of
government service, he could (1) retire yesterday and not worry about the
money or (2) stop posting entirely and his mangagement wouldn't care in the
slightest (my guess is they'd be happier).
I think we can figure out the agenda of Schlatter and Destatte: they like to
see truth done, they're trying to honor men who gave their lives.
What can be the motives of such as Kauffman, Coleman, Smith, Ylad (yes,
Coleman is there by design: all frauds are alike in the light. Or the dark)
etc. ad nauseam?
PBylin
>If the two are Destatte and Schlatter, isn't it true that Schlatter is<BR>
>retired, and would get that check anyway? Seems to me that ayone venal<BR>
>enough to do something merely because he or she was getting a check,
>stop doing it if that person knew the check would come in anyway.<BR>
><BR>
>As to Destatte, something tells me that with nearly forty years of<BR>
>government service, he could (1) retire yesterday and not worry about the<BR>
>money or (2) stop posting entirely and his mangagement wouldn't care in
>slightest (my guess is they'd be happier).<BR>
><BR>
>I think we can figure out the agenda of Schlatter and Destatte: they like
>see truth done, they're trying to honor men who gave their lives.<BR>
Really..?..Maybe Joe & Bob are trying to honor the lives that were taken by the
hands of other Americans...read about the "Tailwind" story...
Paul Bylin
LZ Memories: Veterans Support Base BBS
Paul Bylin
(978) 977-9756 (BBS)
PO Box 4156
Peabody, Ma 01961-4156
http://members.aol.com/PBylin/LZ-Memories.html
RJDES
In Article <199806072225...@ladder01.news.aol.com> Paul Bylin wrote:
>...Maybe Joe & Bob are trying to honor the lives that were taken by
>the hands of other Americans...read about the "Tailwind" story...
>
>Paul Bylin
As usual, self-proclaimed "researcher" Mr. Bylin is attacking other Americans
while pretending to know what he is writing about. Also, as usual,
"researcher" Bylin failed to give readers of this newsgroup enough information
that they might make informed independent judgments.
The Operation Tailwind that "researcher Bylin" mentioned was a mission that
inserted a MACVSOG force into an area on the main corridor of the Ho Chi Minh
Trail about 20 kilometers SE of Chavan, Laos, on 11 September 1970. Chavan is
located at what was at that time a major crossroad on the HCM Trail. Men and
material passing through Chavan could either move east into Communist B1 Front
(western Quang Nam Province) or southeast to Communist B3 Front (Western
Highlands), or continue south to B2 Front (approximately the southernmost 1/3
of SVN). Needless to say, the MACVSOG force met stiff opposition. After a
period of intense combat the force was extracted on the fourth day.
The purpose of Operation Tailwind was to draw PAVN (People's Army of Vietnam
Forces) away from allied forces in the region who were being hard pressed by
PAVN. During the 1970 rainy season (approximately April-October) PAVN carried
out an offensive to expand the areas under its control in the southernmost
provinces of Laos.
The CNN advertisements suggest the CNN special report will try to persuade
viewers that the purpose of the operation was to kill American defectors, and
that the mechanism American planners chose to carry out the task was some sort
of lethal gas. Such a claim is nonsense.
First, only two American servicemen defected during the entire war. One, US
Army Private McKinley Nolan, lived in Cambodia with his wife and children until
he died in late 1974 or early 1975. The other man was USMC Private Robert R.
Garwood. While there is persuasive circumstantial evidence that he took part
in combat operations alongside PAVN troops, he certainly did not take part in
combat operations in southern Laos in 1970. He operated in Quang Ngai, Quang
Tin, and Quang Nam Provinces of SVN. He went to NVN in the fall of 1969.
I fully expect "researcher" Bylin and his anti-government and anti-department
of defense colleagues will drone on and on with undocumented and vague claims
that suggest large numbers of Americans defected and were working with PAVN
forces in Laos. I am confident that most members of the newsgroup will
recognize the emptiness of such claims. I won't have much time during the next
couple of weeks to devote to responding to them.
Second, consider the absurdity of using lethal gas against an opposing force
engaged in close quarters combat with American troops. The risk to friendly
troops would be unacceptable.
Third, consider the absurdity of the notion that Hanoi would have remained
silent about the use of lethal gas - - if we had used it. I spent a few hours
this weekend going through PAVN's official history of its operations on the HCM
trail (it bears their classification of Secret), PAVN's official history of its
Chemical Command, and PAVN's official history of the 968th Volunteer Infantry
Division (which was responsible for defense of the region in question).
These publication contain not the slightest hint that we ever used lethal gas
against PAVN forces. PAVN's concerns about our use of chemical agents was
limited to our use of CS gas - - an agent each of us was exposed to during
basic training and many of us used in combat operations in SVN. Nothing new or
startling here.
The primary missions of PAVN chemical troops were:
- guidance to combat arms units on how to cope
with chemicals the enemy employed.
- distribution of gas masks and other equipment
for defense against chemicals.
- generate smoke in support of deception and
concealment operations.
- flame thrower support to combat arms units
- collect and exploit enemy chemical munitions
and countermeasures equipment
The history of PAVN's Chemical Command notes the importance of capturing
American chemical munitions (e.g., CS grenades) and equipment (e.g., gas masks)
to support Hanoi's "political and diplomatic struggle" (i.e., for propaganda
purposes). It is absurd to think that Hanoi would have remained silent if we
had used lethal chemicals.
Operation Tailwind did not merit specific mention in any of these three PAVN
publications. The only mention of MACVSOG operations during this time frame is
a sentence on page 88 of the official history of the 968th Division that notes
during the 1970 rainy season the US inserted 35 commando teams by helicopter in
the regions bordering the Bolovens Plateau.
In summary, the members of MACVSOG who took part in Operation Tailwind fought
heroically. Their fighting ability and courage are worthy of our respect and
admiration. Operation Tailwind, however, had nothing to do with American
defectors nor did it involve the use of lethal chemicals.
Reading "researcher" Bylin's accusations that Americans killed other Americans
(like his accusations that General Vessey is a traitor, etc.) reminds me of an
old saying my Grandfather used to recite - - something about empty barrels and
making a lot of noise. Perhaps some member of the newsgroup can recall the
exact saying for us.
Regards, Robert J. Destatte
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Dear Wyatt,
I was aware of the "Salt and Pepper" team and we (1st Bn, 525th MIG,
DaNang) had an active investigation and HUMINT operations directed
toward identification and return to custody of the Salt and Pepper
team. I did not know about Mr.. Garwood until long after the war. I
had access to the Nolan case but am having a hard time right now in
recalling pertinent information (I believe I have it confused with
McKinley or some other defector/deserters who we investigated while in
RVN). Also, in 1970-1972, while assigned to the 902d MI Group, the
Special Operations Unit (SOU), headed by Mr.. Gordon Huff (GS-13)
worked on a program to identify and return to custody US Army
personnel who had defected. When I worked with SOU, my access was
limited to the compartment working on defectors who previously had
access to classified materials and who were active in the "American
Expatriate Movement" in Canada. While stationed in Thailand,
1974-1975, I, along with CWO3 Guy "Red" J. Batiste, Jr.., had access to
a USAF E6 deserter who had "defected" to Thailand in 1968 and was
living with his in-laws and working their rice paddy. We didn't
serious consider him a defector, he was simply in love with a Thai
lady and the CO refused him permission to marry her. When I was a
member of the EGRESS/RECAP (HOMECOMING) team at the 116th MI Group, I
recall being tasked to obtain information about defectors, but my
returnee did not have any knowledge.
Hope this helps a bit
Regards,
Wyatt Earp wrote in message
<6lgspa$cq7$1...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
In an article in this thread dated 6/8/98 Bob
Destatte wrote:
", only two American servicemen
defected during the entire war."
In another article in this thread dated 6/6/98
Misterfixit wrote:
"and I participated in a continuing
investigation of deserter/defectors who
joined the NVA/VC."
The USG admits to two defectors, Garwood
and Noland. The two that Bob Destatte
referred to. Misterfixit, when you stated defectors, are you reffering
to only Garwood
and Noland, or were you involved in the
investigation of more than two? If there were
more than two will you please elaborate. In
the next issue of Time magazine , the 6/15/98
issue, there will be an article by April Oliver
and Peter Arnett stating that there were close
to 300 defectors.
Wyatt Earp
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNXwTR7ebSZiMaN67EQJy+ACgxl0gC1zZu9iqJUju3eXmUBX5G8sAn3oR
zfk8AUeU438iruMfc9N+EXO/
=6eaR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Edward
In 1964 THE topic in the intelligence shop was "Salt & Pepper" and "Father
Hoi and his Chinese troops(the Sea Sparrows)"
...................
yl...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6lheu9$orp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <6lh41j$i...@examiner.concentric.net>,
>> defected during the entire war."
>>
>> Misterfixit wrote:
>>
>> "and I participated in a continuing
>> investigation of deserter/defectors who
>> joined the NVA/VC."
>>
>> The USG admits to two defectors, Garwood
>> and Noland. The two that Bob Destatte
>> referred to. Misterfixit, when you stated defectors, are you reffering
>> to only Garwood
>> and Noland, or were you involved in the
>> investigation of more than two? If there were
>> more than two will you please elaborate. In
>> the next issue of Time magazine , the 6/15/98
>> issue, there will be an article by April Oliver
>> and Peter Arnett stating that there were close
>> to 300 defectors.
>>
>> Wyatt Earp
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
>>
>> iQA/AwUBNXwTR7ebSZiMaN67EQJy+ACgxl0gC1zZu9iqJUju3eXmUBX5G8sAn3oR
>> zfk8AUeU438iruMfc9N+EXO/
>> =6eaR
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>
were
>later dropped. The U.S. government had reporting within weeks of Garwood's
>capture from two separate intelligence agents that Garwood was captured
>against his will. The U.S. government has fabricated a number of stories
>about McKinley Nolan's alleged death. Nolan was also on the POW list, and
>did indeed collaborate with the enemy, as did a number of POW returnees.
>When the POWs reported home in 1973, Nolan was seen as being alive shortly
>before the others returned. As I recall, Nolan was in the same camp, in a
>separate area, as was Major Mark Smith. Smith and every other POW in his
>camp knew of Nolan.
>
>Major Smith, as you may remember, was given the honor by General Abrams to
be
>the first POW off of his plane to freedom. Smith later learned of other
POWs
>held against their will, and complained when his commanding general refused
>to take action. Later, Smith provided documentation showing his commanding
>general lied about the incident. Smith was supported in his allegations
>against the U.S. government by his direct superior, a Medal of honor
winner,
>I believe by the name of Colonel Howard.
>
>The only defector that I am aware of who stayed in Vietnam after the war is
>named Weatherman. I have no doubt there were many defectors, but as I
said, I
>know of only Weatherman who stayed in Vietnam.
>
>Rich Daly Research Director, MN Won't Forget POW/MIA
>
>
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
RJDES
In Article <6lgspa$cq7$1...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Wyatt Earp wrote:
>The USG admits to two defectors, Garwood
>and Noland. The two that Bob Destatte
>referred to.
The verb "admits" in this context suggests the writer suspects the USG knew
(knows) of more than two, but admits only to two.
With no false modesty, few Americans know more than I about the issue of
Americans lost during the Vietnam war. I state categorically that only two
Americans defected to Communist forces. Several prisoners cooperated to the
extent that some of their fellow POWs recommended that they be court martialed.
None of these returned POWs were court martialed. But only two Americans
cooperated with Communist forces to the extent that they were admitted into
their ranks - - in other words, defected.
>Misterfixit, when you stated defectors, are you reffering
>to only Garwood and Noland, or were you involved in the
>investigation of more than two?
>If there were more than two will you please elaborate.
I don't doubt that during the war American forces received and investigated
numerous reports of defectors. We know much more today than we did thirty
years ago. Again, only two Americans defected to Communist forces in Southeast
Asia.
>In the next issue of Time magazine , the 6/15/98
>issue, there will be an article by April Oliver
>and Peter Arnett stating that there were close
>to 300 defectors.
Which proves what? ...that April Oliver and Peter Arnett are full of shit!?
Regards, Robert J. Destatte
JKauff2017
On 08 Jun 1998 00:51:51 GMT Bob Destatte wrote:
>
> First, only two American servicemen defected during
> the entire war.
The Library of Congress POW/MIA database has 358
records on deserters. Below are indexes 1 through 60
to serve as an example of records available on deserters
from the Vietnam War:
POW/MIA Database
358 Records were found containing the word Deserters
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Records 1 through 20 of 358
1 RVN: WEATHERMAN, EARL/Circumstances of
Two American Marines Who Reportedly Deserted
in Quang Nam Province
2 RVN: LIRA, JOSE/Information On U.S. Deserter;
Loss Of Benefits such as Medical Care To Dependents
as a Result of Lira's Deserter status
3 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Missing mutineer and Army
deserter
4 DESERTERS IN SOUTH VIETNAM; A RESPONSE
TO A REQUEST FROM THE HOUSE SELECT
COMMITTEE
5 ROGERS, LYLE/Deserter Located
6 RVN: ROGERS, LYLE/Deserter Wanted by the
Armed Forces
7 RVN: BURTON, NEIL/Information On U.S. Deserter
8 NVN: Various ways and places to desert the armed
forces
9 RVN: CORRIVEAU, ROBERT/Information on U.S. Deserter
10 RVN: LEMCOOL, ERNEST/Information on U.S. Deserter
11 VM: GILBERT, CLARENCE/Information On U.S. Deserter
12 CB: HUMPHREY, LARRY/Information on Status; Deserter
13 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Neg rept two US deserters
at PH Sangke Kaong
14 RVN: EVERETTE, EDWARD, JR./Information On
U.S. Deserter
15 RVN: ALCORN, MICHAEL/Information on U.S. Deserter
16 South Vietnam, pre-1975: IRWIN, DOUGLAS/Information
on U.S. Deserter
17 THE MCKINLEY NOLAN CASE FILE/Announcement
of Nolan's desertion to liberated Long Khanh (Dong Nai) province.
18 RVN: WASHINGTON, BOBBY/Data Sheet
19 RVN: ROGERS, LYLE/Data Shee
20 RVN: WADLEIGH, CARL/Data Sheet
PREV PAGE NEXT PAGE NEW SEARCH
POW/MIA Database
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Records 21 through 40 of 358
21 RVN: ODOM II, CHESTER/Data Shee
22 RVN: ADVENTIO, RODOLFO/Active Navy Deserters Reported Absent Without
Authority While in Vietnam
23 CB: HUMPHREY, LARRY/Two Caucasian Deserters Operating With Khmer Rouge
Forces In Cambodia
24 RVN: WEATHERMAN, EARL/Assessment of Captive
Status at Homecoming of Individuals on Senate Select
Committee Lists
25 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Caucasian deserters in
Cambodia
26 CB: HUMPHREY, LARRY/IIR 69186747774 -
Caucasian Deserters in CB
27 RVN: NOLAN, MCKINLEY/ Sighting of an alleged
U.S. deserter in Hau Nghia Province, South Vietnam in June or July 1967.
28 RVN: WEATHERMAN, EARL/File Record Summary
29 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Caucasian deserters in Cambodia
30 Request for Information on USMC Deserters
31 DEBRIEFING DOCUMENTS ON VETO BAKER,
U.S. ARMY DESERTER
32 RVN: WEATHERMAN, EARL/Progress Report
33 Cambodia: Neg Report two US deserters at PH
Sangke Kaong
34 CB: WEATHERMAN, EARL/IIR 6842041187 - MIA Report
35 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Caucasian deserters in Cambodia
36 South Vietnam, pre-1975: WADLEIGH,
CARL/Commanding Officer's Inquiry
37 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ Columbia Eagle mutineers and
US Army deserter
38 RVN: WEATHERMAN, EARL/IIR RE-Evaluation
39 RVN: SIGHTING OF AN ALLEGED U.S. DESERTER IN HAU NGHIA PROVINCE/ Deserter
Allegedly Planned to Return to United States After Settling His Vietnamese Wife
and Children in Cambodia.
40 RVN: BAILEY, DANIEL/Information On U.S. Deserter
<Picture>PREV PAGE NEXT PAGE NEW SEARCH
POW/MIA Database
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Records 41 through 60 of 358
41 CB: HUMPHREY, LARRY/Columbia Eagle Mutineers
and U.S. Army Deserter
42 CB: MCKAY, CLYDE/ US Army deserter and Columbia
Eagle mutineers
43 CB: HUMPHREY, LARRY/IIR 1776054574 - Neg Rpt
Two US Deserters at Ph Sangke Kaong; Evaluation
44 post-1975 Vietnam: WEATHERMAN, EARL/Status
of Private Earl C. Weatherman, 554788058, US Marine Corps
45 post-1975 Vietnam: DIA MISCELLANEOUS/
Information on U.S. Servicemen Who Deserted in Vietnam
46 RVN: NOLAN, MCKINLEY/ American deserter
in Quang Ngai Province
47 RVN: WASHINGTON, BOBBY/Report of American
Living in Da Nang City
48 South Vietnam, pre-1975: WADLEIGH, CARL/Correspondence Between Department of
the
Army and Next of Kin Regarding SP4 Wadleigh
49 RVN: SIGHTING OF AN ALLEGED U.S. DESERTER
IN HAU NGHIA PROVINCE/ Observation of US Army Deserter
50 VM: NOLAN, MCKINLEY/ Congressman Dornan
to DIA, requesting a briefing on three US collaborators;
mentions a St Louis Post Dispatch article of 16 Sep 72
which is not included in this file.
51 VM: U.S. Deserters
52 post-1975 Vietnam: Robert Garwood Officially Listed
as a Deserter
53 CB: NOLAN, MCKINLEY/ KC detention camp,
Kampong Cham Province (P), CB; Evaluation
54 post-1975 Vietnam: U.S. Officials Interview a Former Propaganda and
Interrogation Officer Who Had
Frequent Contact with PWs and Deserters During
the Vietnam War
55 RVN: NOLAN, MCKINLEY/Letter to Attorney
Shjeflo, pertaining to Nolan's military status; list of
military deserters.
56 post-1975 Vietnam: JCRC-LNB RPT T87-312,
Deserters From Vietnam
57 South Vietnam, pre-1975: Charges, Findings, and
Approval of Robert Garwood's Status as a Deserter
from the Marine Corps (19 pages).
58 Interview with North Vietnamese Deserter in
Phnom Penh
59 1973-1974/ Navy Deserters
60 RVN: FUGITIVE DESERTER/ Mateo (No Middle Initial) Sabog, SSAN [data]
<Picture>PREV PAGE NEXT PAGE NEW SEARCH
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query
Jimi Kauffman
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
JKauff2017 wrote in message
<199806090454...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>On 08 Jun 1998 00:51:51 GMT Bob Destatte wrote:
>>
>> First, only two American servicemen defected during
>> the entire war.
>
>The Library of Congress POW/MIA database has 358
>records on deserters. Below are indexes 1 through 60
>to serve as an example of records available on deserters
>from the Vietnam War:
>
>POW/MIA Database
>
>358 Records were found containing the word Deserters
>
The difference between the term "deserter" and "defector" is
important.
Please note that during the Vietnam Conflict Era, a large number of
US military members decided that they would prefer flight to
fight. Some of these individuals departed from their duty station and
traveled to foreign countries. In some cases they were assisted by
groups of non-military people who considered themselves to be
facilitating an "underground railroad". There were numerous public
statements made by both the groups and by deserters; generally of a
political, anti-US involvement in the Vietnam War genre. The records
of President Carter's amnesty program for people who either dodged the
draft or deserted to avoid service in Vietnam would be elucidating.
Likewise, the POW/MIA Database files of "358 Records" would be
instructive if the actual reports were examined. The reader would
find that many of the reports were raw intelligence IIR's
(Intelligence Information Reports), were duplicative, or used the term
"defector" and "deserter" interchangeably.
There is no question that some American military members chose to
remain in Vietnam either after their Expiration of Term of Service
(ETS) or as an extension to their desertion. For those who had been
discharged after ETS, there was virtually nothing the US Government
could do about their choice of a place to live as a civilian citizen
of the USA. Yes, there can be an argument made that SVN was at war
and
that the US Embassy in Saigon had declared travel into SVN as
"Extremely hazardous", and military personnel were forbidden by lawful
order to enable travel of civilians in country unless those civilians
were authorized and documented by the USG.
While it would be convenient to sift all US citizens through a sieve
labeled "foreign travel" and then further sift them through "Vietnam",
that is not possible given the technology of the 1960's and the fact
that the USA does not practice a totalitarian government's control of
citizens.
It would be interesting to sift through the US State Department
records
for any and all civilians traveling to or listed as being resident in
RVN. Again, those records may be partially available, but not
retrievable. Interesting but not germane to this posting.
A comparison of all US military deserter records, popular media of the
time, IIRs, and anecdotal information would be relatively simple if
the hardware and software existed. Perhaps it does in some backwater
USG office and thus a maximally filtered list of names could be
produced. That would be useful information to one who needs to
compare the number of "defectors" with the number of "deserters"
from the US.
Observe that official designation of "defector" is not given in haste
since that designation caries legal consequences for the USG and for
the individual which are far above those consequences of a deserter.
Lee Harvey Oswald, for instance, was a "defector" as was Svetlana
Stalin.
The simple reproduction of given and Christian names
listed in the 358 Records of the POW/MIA database will produce only a
list of given and Christian names listed in the 358 records of the
POW/MIA database.
Regards
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNXzaj7ebSZiMaN67EQKWqQCeP4waMSXTN6OSpp0Nik/E5J0V15gAoK2P
i09JELhZwrJAeQylbfPEInfw
=d7kU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Lee
JKauff2017 wrote:
>
> On 08 Jun 1998 00:51:51 GMT Bob Destatte wrote:
> >
> > First, only two American servicemen defected during
> > the entire war.
>
> The Library of Congress POW/MIA database has 358
> records on deserters. Below are indexes 1 through 60
> to serve as an example of records available on deserters
> from the Vietnam War:
Jimi: This is interesting, but there is a big difference between
deserters (such as those who lived in Cholon) and DEFECTORS.
Defectors actively work for the enemy. Deserters abandon their own
units to avoid service.
Putting up lists of deserters when the discussion is on defectors
simply clouds the issue, doesn't it?
Lee
Joe Schlatter
Okay, folks. What Jimi has posted here is what passes for "research and
analysis" among Jimi and other MIA groupies. Run a search for the word
"deserters", get 358 hits, and publish those hits, hoping to demonstrate
that Bob Destatte is lying when he states that only two Americans
deserted TO ENEMY FORCES.
During my tenure at DIA we scrubbed the "deserter" question. In
fact, we determined that several thousand -- I do not recall the number
but I believe it was close to 3,000 -- Americans "deserted" during the
Vietnam war. But, when you do the pick-and-shovel work of analysis,
that is, read every document in every file, you find the facts are
nowhere near as startling.
--- Many of these "deserters" were in the States, had orders for
Vietnam, and simply did not make their port call. Because of the way
the reporting system worked, they were picked upon the rolls of a unit
in Vietnam -- even though they never reported -- then they were DFR --
dropped from the rolls as a deserter. In fact, they were in the States,
never did go to SEAsia.
--- Many others deserted from their units in Europe, Japan, Korea, and
elsewhere, upon receiving orders to Vietnam.
The actual number of men who were declared deserters in Vietnam was very
small. The last I recall was that there were 40-something whose records
carry the indicator AA, meaning that they were dropped from the rolls as
a deserter. Investigation of these cases resulted in the conclusion
that Bob Destatte cites: only two Americans DESERTED TO ENEMY FORCES.
Yes, there were others who deserted but their desertion consisted of:
--- deserting while on R&R. When I was stationed in Japan, 1990 - 93,
there was a series of newspaper articles about Americans who went to
Japan on R&R then deserted there, under the influence of Commies in
Japan who prowled the GI bars. In fact, they had an interview with one
guy who came back to Japan specifically to celebrate the anniversary of
his desertion.
--- Going to Hawaii on R&R, buying a ticket to the mainland, and gong
honme,never to return.
--- Going into the GI underground, in Saigon mainly. Some number of
these folks came out in 1975 in response to public information campaigns
by US Embassy, urging Americans in Vietnam to get out.
-- Veto Baker who simply moved in with his Vietnamese wife and lived
peacefully until the Commies threw him out in 1976.
-- Herman Macdonald. Deserted, made his way back to the States, turned
himself in, discharged, went back to Vietnam, lkved quietly with wife
and children in the Delta until the Commies ejected him in 1976. Herman
had an eye for the ladies. When he delighted himself withone too many,
his common-law wife in San Antonio put a stop to it with a .357.
-- (I forgot his name). Turned himself in to the US Embassy in
Australia in 198(7 or 8). Had been living in Australia since he got
some fake R&R orders in 1972
--- McKay and Humphrey. I forget the deatils on these two; McKay was a
civilian, Humphrey was Army.
--- etc., etc., etc.
The statement that only two American deserters went over to the commies
is accurate.
Joe Schlatter
Owen Lock
Well, I watched the CNN story: do you seriously believe that shit? Arnett
himself had to admit that the most damaging assertions were not made on
camera. Using nerve gas at close quarters with American troops in range?
Pictures inside the ville but not of the supposed dead Americans? If that's
the best Time and CNN can do with 8 months' research, they ought to be shot.
Give me a break.
I also read Plaster's version, in SOG, which makes more sense.
PBylin wrote in message <199806072225...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>If the two are Destatte and Schlatter, isn't it true that Schlatter is<BR>
>>retired, and would get that check anyway? Seems to me that ayone venal<BR>
>>enough to do something merely because he or she was getting a check,
>>would<BR>
>>stop doing it if that person knew the check would come in anyway.<BR>
>><BR>
>>As to Destatte, something tells me that with nearly forty years of<BR>
>>government service, he could (1) retire yesterday and not worry about
the<BR>
>>money or (2) stop posting entirely and his mangagement wouldn't care in
>>the<BR>
>>slightest (my guess is they'd be happier).<BR>
>><BR>
>>I think we can figure out the agenda of Schlatter and Destatte: they like
>>to<BR>
>>see truth done, they're trying to honor men who gave their lives.<BR>
>
>Really..?..Maybe Joe & Bob are trying to honor the lives that were taken by
the
>hands of other Americans...read about the "Tailwind" story...
>
>Paul Bylin
Owen Lock
And, let us please not forget that not every caucasian is an American, nor
is every Black. I have no knowledge of any "volunteers fulfilling their
Fraternal Socialist duty by struggling on behalf of their beleaguered DRV
comrades" (well, excepting Chicom), but that is always a possibility.
Particularly since in 28 years we've only developed two American names to
check against those billets in Laos.
RJDES wrote in message <199806090414...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Someone in this confusing thread wrote the following:
>>>Misterfixit, when you stated defectors, are you reffering
>>>to only Garwood and Noland, or were you involved in the
>>>investigation of more than two?
>>
>>>If there were more than two will you please elaborate.
>>
There were two officially documented DEFECTORS of which I was
OFFICIALLY AWARE.
There were THOUSANDS of officially documented DESERTERS of which I was
OFFICIALLY AWARE.
I investigated DESERTERS who had had access to classified information.
I DID NOT investigate DEFECTOR Garwood, he was a USMC CI and USN ONI
problem
OFFICIALLY AWARE, in the context used in the aforementioned paragraph,
means that I had the dossier or investigative file in my hand and I
read it, either because it was interesting or because I was stuck with
running some leads.
I am going to take my medication now.
Medication refers to 1) Benson and Hedges Menthol Light 100's from the
Fort Campbell Commissary; and, 2) Cheap Beer from Kroger's; 3) Chili
con carne made with Pequinitos Excellantes muy Caliente y Peligroso.
Regards
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNX1BEbebSZiMaN67EQI+7ACgp4251sIZJNlalw1HPmjxt3KdXTMAnR4g
LVYd/PNrMURtjFJplooWIFqu
=fo1Q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Garvin Eastman
Lee wrote in message <357D2491...@tiac.net>...
>JKauff2017 wrote:
(snipped for brevity)
>
>
>Jimi: This is interesting, but there is a big difference between
>deserters (such as those who lived in Cholon) and DEFECTORS.
>Defectors actively work for the enemy. Deserters abandon their own
>units to avoid service.
>
>Putting up lists of deserters when the discussion is on defectors
>simply clouds the issue, doesn't it?
........not at all! If Tailwind was what Time and CNN make
it out to be, then I think the point is that perhaps we didn't just kill
DEFECTORS. The issue is clouded because you have some touting that there
were only 2 DEFECTORS. Then who were the other "roundeyes" and
"longshadows" killed in operation Tailwind?
Respectfully,
G. Eastman
>
>Lee
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Possible answers to this tedious thread:
1) Heroic observers of the Great Soviet who were taught English by
Alger Hiss and Herbert Philbrick;
2) East European Revolutionary Volunteer Comrades of the
aforementioned who were taught English by the Elders of Zion;
3) Members of the capitalist Wall-street running-dog media and their
Industrialist Lackey Puppet Leaders;
4) CIA Case Officers who didn't get the word due to the usual CIA
"Failure of an Obstinite Congress to Provide Adequate Funding";
5) DIA secret operatives same as #4; substitute "Interservice Rivalry"
for "Congress"
6) Members of US Army Project 404 and/or ASA's Detachment Ten who were
in the same boat as #4; substitute "OACSI, DA"
7) GI's on R&R who were looking for a Little Strange and met the wrong
taxi driver(s);
8) Space Aliens same as #8 or who were simply strange;
9) Henry the K's Secret Negotiating Team (Phalanx #1) secretly guided
by the Yalta Meeting Operatives of the Grand Order of Illuminat and
Those Who Deluded A Sickly and Infirm FDR Into Giving Away Europe;
10) Any or all of the above and Is There Something To The Fact That
General Vessy's Son Was a State Department Officer in Thailand?
Garvin Eastman wrote in message <6ljh40$o...@ns1.lr.net>...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNX14s7ebSZiMaN67EQLzAQCgms4RJM+ScGN6Mb601x6yaX0weaYAmwcY
NUGp6FKm5TWyOaKhyIEKbTfN
=NGtV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Lee
Owen Lock wrote:
> the best Time and CNN can do with 8 months' research, they ought to be shot.
No, I think GASSED would be more appropriate. Maybe some nice DM
would keep them busy and out of mischief for awhile.
Lee
Lee
Garvin Eastman wrote:
> Then who were the other "roundeyes" and
> "longshadows" killed in operation Tailwind?
Were there? Were there any? How many, and who? So far all we have is
a couple of reporters (one of whom -- Arnette -- makes a crusade of
trying to find something [anything!] wrong with the U.S.) saying
things that they claim the witnesses won't say on the record, and
very confusing statements that the witnesses DO make.
They claim Americans were killed in the village. Wouldn't you think
with the pictures taken there, that they would FILM some of the
"American" (or other non-local) bodies as evidence of having
accomplished the claimed mission??
They also claim that the ville was gassed with nerve gas at night,
but in the morning they had to go in and kill 100+ people. They also
appear to claim that people were mutilated by chemical agents --
which just doesn't happen. I mean, they won't look pretty, but
unless you get hit in the head with the device, you aren't going to
be mutilated.
Now, if they gassed this little village at night, who was alive the
next morning?
And the claim that the down-draft of helicopters dispersed the nerve
agent enough to protect the U.S. and 'Yard troops is absurd.
It just doesn't make a lot of sense, Garvin. If they wanted to kill
some defectors, they've got rifles and grenades, 500-lb bombs,
artillery, etc. EVEN IF THEY WERE GOING TO USE NERVE AGENT, THEY'D
HAVE USED "STAND-OFF" PROCEDURES TO DO IT, not sent in troops around
the target and THEN gassed it.
I say again, jungle fatigues and M17's (or the older models of
masks) are not enough to protect troops from GB or Sarin.
Lee
Craig Thompson
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 14:52:42 -0400, Lee <gen...@tiac.net> wrote:
>They claim Americans were killed in the village. Wouldn't you think
>with the pictures taken there, that they would FILM some of the
>"American" (or other non-local) bodies as evidence of having
>accomplished the claimed mission??
Does sound like something out of Apocalypse Now doesn't it?
I wonder if there was a Colonel Kurtz in the village?
Jerry Williamson
Assuming that there were "roundeyes" killed, they
were more than likely Russian.
And if you don't think there were Russians operating
in the area, I suggest you check with some who were
there.
--
paddy28
CanTho 67-68
Remove NoSpam to reply
Garvin Eastman wrote in message <6ljh40$o...@ns1.lr.net>...
>were only 2 DEFECTORS. Then who were the other "roundeyes" and
Steve Golding
RJDES wrote:
> Which proves what? ...that April Oliver and Peter Arnett are full of shit!?
>
> Regards, Robert J. Destatte
Hiya BOB, miss me?
Anyway I was just wondering, is the above question rhetorical or is the
OFFICIAL position of Defense that, "April Oliver and Peter Arnett are
full of shit!?"
Steve
Karen R Sabog
A keyword search on the same database for "return of remains"
also returns a record mentioning my uncle Mateo Sabog. Does that
mean it's true or pertinent? Obviously not since he's alive!
A keyword search on Deja News for "liar Kaufmann" returns an
article specifically mentioning you. Does that mean it's true
or pertinent? Hmmmm ....
Karen
JKauff2017 wrote:
>
> On 08 Jun 1998 00:51:51 GMT Bob Destatte wrote:
> >
> > First, only two American servicemen defected during
> > the entire war.
>
> The Library of Congress POW/MIA database has 358
> records on deserters. Below are indexes 1 through 60
> to serve as an example of records available on deserters
> from the Vietnam War:
>
> POW/MIA Database
>
> 358 Records were found containing the word Deserters
>
> [SNIP]
Lee
Karen R Sabog wrote:
>
> A keyword search on the same database for "return of remains"
> also returns a record mentioning my uncle Mateo Sabog. Does that
> mean it's true or pertinent? Obviously not since he's alive!
Hello, Karen. Welcome to AWV!
Lee
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
>Wyatt Earp wrote in message
<6llr8r$pu4$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>....
>Misterfixit, I agree with you that there is a confusing aspect to
this
>thread. You said that you were aware of the two offically known
>defectors. I assume that you are referring to
>Garwood and Nolan. You also said that you
>were aware of the "Salt and Pepper" team.
>Questions: If Salt and Pepper were not Garwood and Nolan, who were
they?
>Even if Garwood was "Salt" , who was "Pepper"?
>What was the final resolve of the Salt and
>Pepper case anyway? Or were they just
>a myth?
{snip}
>Wyatt Earp
Dear Marshal;
My knowledge of the Salt and Pepper team goes like this; I am
including all the non-pertinent details so as to provide a fully
rounded statement for anyone interested in military history.
I volunteered for assignment to Vietnam in early 1967. After arriving
at Camp Alpha in Saigon (yep, even us spooks went through there and
stood on our number), I was assigned to a special investigative team
in Saigon at the HQ, 525th MIG; It was a temporary duty job and I was
advised at that time I would be going to DaNang to join the 1st Bn
525th MIG (which at the time was actually the DaNang CI Detachment of
the 135th MI Battalion (CI) (Cover name: US Army Central Registry
Detachment). I worked with Major Robert Young in Saigon on an
internal investigation of a technical penetration of a USAMACV HQ
conference room. I was "by name" requested by Bob Young because I had
previously worked with him in Washington DC the previous 2 years at
the 116th MIG (then the 116th INTC Group and before that the 116th CIC
Detachment), located at 2d and R Streets, SW, Washington, DC, in Tempo
C Building.
Following that special assignment I traveled to DaNang and was
assigned to the DaNang CI Detachment; I had three main jobs assigned
to me by the commander, LTC Clarence J. Fulford, Jr... (cover name Don
Ford):
1) The activation and development of a Technical Surveillance
Countermeasures (TSCM) collection operation directed against the
Polish International Control Commission (ICC) office in DaNang;
establishment of the listening post and tape recording facilities;
2) Penetration of the offices of James S. Lee LTD, a Hong Kong based
clothing and tailor operation that was suspected of being infiltrated
by agents of a Hostile Intelligence Service (HoIS) who were allegedly
attempting to recruit a member of the DaNang HUMINT activity (149th MI
Bn or FSSA - Foreign Sociological Studies Agency), and,
3) An assistant CI Desk Officer for a local national who professed
information about American military deserters in the I Corps area.
These three special tasks were in addition to my normal duties as a CI
Agent; access to these three special operations was compartmented away
from the regular DaNang CI detachment personnel.
Task #1 occupied about 75 percent of my time for the first several
weeks until successfully completed;
Task #2 was relatively trivial and took about 10 days until successful
assessment and recruitment of an asset took place;
Task #3 required a great amount of research and training. I had
extensive coordination with the III MAF (3rd Marine Amphibious Force)
G2, LTC (USMC) Beverly Veal and a senior case office with the 9th USMC
CI Team, CWO-2 (later CPT LDO) Al Cederquist. I knew LTC Veal from my
tour at the Pentagon and Mr. Cederquist from an 8-week training course
at Fort Holabird in 1966. There was also a Marine E7 who worked for
LTC Veal, but I cannot recall his name although we regularly got drunk
and laid at Suzanne's House in DaNang. Part of the problem I had with
the Salt and Pepper investigation was that at the time (November 1967
to early January 1968) I don't think that I knew exactly who or what
they were. I read many reports and conducted interviews regarding
sightings of a dark-complexioned soldier who may have been of Negroid
Race and a light complexioned soldier who may have been of the
Caucasian Race. These sightings were in many cases confused and
consisted of comments obtained at a post-battle S-2 debriefing :
"there was a Brother out there fighting!" and "I saw a White guy with
an AK and he was coming up to the wire ..."
I did not have extensive or personal contact with many of the other
agents assigned to the DaNang CI Field office, although I lived at
their compound. I was known by many of them to have been a member of
the 902d MI Group's "Head Hunters" (Internal Affairs) and a hard-ass
career soldier with an Infantry background and thus was mostly left
alone to do my own work. I had a light cover within the Detachment as
a TSCM Technician but many assumed (correctly) that I was working some
special projects directly for the Ops Officer and CO. My general
cover was as a GS-9 electronic repairman and I was documented with the
usual civilian ID card, Geneva Convention card and ration card. I
also carried Badge and Credentials as a Military Intelligence Special
Agent and had Vietnamese National Police Credentials and Badge. I
normally wore civilian clothes but when traveling outside of DaNang I
wore Army fatigues with a DA Civilian patch. I was armed with a Smith
and Wesson 2 inch barrel .38 pistol, an M1911A1 .45 pistol (until it
was lost), a combat shotgun with flechette ammunition, and once, an M2
Carbine cut off to fit into a holster. Colonel Rajala took that away
from me along with my sawed off folding stock AK47 that I had traded
with some Special Forces guys for my poncho liner and some nudist
magazines. My MOS was 97B4P (Counterintelligence Special Agent); my
secondary MOS was 97C40 (Area Intelligence Specialist - HUMINT); my
previous MOS's were 131.10 (13F10)( Armor Crewman) and 11F20 (Infantry
Intelligence Specialist)
Some of the guys who lived and worked with me were SSG's Bill Loveless
(later CWO4) , Larry Saylor, Dave Vermette (later MSG), Jon
Pennington, Carl Riffenberg, SFC (later MSG) George Choi, CPL Terry
Hall, MSG (later SGM) Larry Elick, CWO4 Jim St Onge, MAJ Ray Sellers,
SGT (later CPT) Tran van Dinh, CWO2 Al Jaworski, CPT (later MAJ) Ted
Gostas (POW), SGT Ken Barton Osborn, SSG Don Rander (later CWO3)
(POW), SGT Don Sexton ( POW), SGT Ed Ray (KIA), SGT Barry Wolk (KIA),
MAJ (later COL) Tom Muirhead; and others.
The USMC G2 office across the river had considerable access to
information that we at the CI Detachment did not have. For example, I
did not have SI access in Vietnam, although I had previously been
indoctrinated for SI and TK in DC prior to PCS (so much for those
"five year travel restrictions"). Much of my work was interviewing
military personnel, both Army and Marine, who had said they had
actually seen the Salt and Pepper team with their own eyes. The Agent
Reports (DA Form 341) which I recall writing were fairly similar in so
far as they stated without equivocation that there was a Negro and a
Caucasian who were actively engaging US military forces while they
were members of what appeared to be North Vietnamese regular army
forces. The recollection of the 32d Route Army as the parent unit
comes to mind but that is likely inaccurate since I was not an Order
of Battle Specialist.
During the Tet Offensive I was mostly scared; directly after the Tet
Offensive I was occupied full time with sorting out the attack on our
Hue offices, the capture of our personnel there by the NVA, the murder
and mutilation of US and Foreign National civilians (German, French,
Belgian, Korean, Japanese, Australian) in Hue, a classified
information compromise Damage Assessment, and a post escape debriefing
of a SGT from the Hue HUMINT detachment, so the next time I had time
to work on the Salt and Pepper case was probably in March or April
1968. At that time, our CI Asset (informant) had attempted to take
photographs of an area through which NVA teams would travel on their
way into the I Corps area. We were advised by G2 III MAF that the
Salt and Pepper Team was "regularly observed" (in retrospect I imagine
this may have come from SIGINT and was sanitized by the III MAF SSO
for non-compartmented distribution). We attempted to cycle the asset
through those areas. No useful imagery was obtained. My personal
opinion is that the agent was not credible.
Finally, sometime in mid-1968 we had assembled a large local dossier
or investigative file of a deserter whose name was probably Nolan, an
African-American GI who deserted in 1965. We had examined a number of
dossiers and case files of other military personnel who had either
been reported missing, who were AWOL in country, or who were known to
have deserted while in the I Corps area. There were at least 25 or 30
potentials, but when narrowed down the finger seemed to point only to
Nolan. I believe that I have said in an earlier posting that I was
not knowledgeable of PFC Garwood since he was a Marine CI problem.
We were actively attempting to recruit as an informant an
African-American GI who had remained in DaNang after deserting. He
was spotted and assessed as a general CI informant who could provide
early warning information on racial incidents and discord; I believe
that this person later was returned to CONUS in a protected status but
have no further information about him. I was also actively trying to
seduce the oldest daughter of the owner of Pop's Barbecue in DaNang,
who was a French African retired Foreign Legion soldier married to a
Vietnamese. She was mighty fine.
The next step in the investigation was to establish a connection so
that real time information about Nolan's whereabouts could be
established and he could be captured. Major Sellers and I traveled to
PhuBai in our detachment's UH1 and had a conference with an operations
officer of the 9th Radio Research Unit, briefing him on the
investigation's progress. I have reason to believe that NSA had
already tasked the 9th RRU (which was a large US Army Security Agency
(ASA) organization ) with a specific collection requirement on Nolan,
but since we were not read on for SI at the time we had to meet
outside the SCIF and use double-talk to avoid actually saying things
like "direction finding, non-Morse intercept, a 24-hour DHOC by Voice
Intercept, KLEIGHTLIGHT, IRON CLAD", etc.. etc..).
9th RRU promised to advise us via the AN/TSEC HY-2 secure voice
terminal at the III MAF Com Center if they had a Tip (alert to the
Watch Office by an operator sitting position of an intercept pertinent
to our case). We did not hear from them again while I was in country
as far as I know.
I had extensive coordination with the DaNang Special Operations Group
(MACVSOG) (known as Command and Control Detachment - North or CCN)
located at Marble Mountain who had been tasked to assemble and insert
the recovery team. I would later in my career meet up with some of
the same guys during MI support operations to Special Operations and I
learned from one, then, that they had never been able to obtain
current HUMINT information upon which to launch a mission.
By this time LTC Fulford had crashed in the unit Huey, tossed a
briefcase full of SECRET documents into a well outside of Tay Nihn,
fought off the bad guys, used a rope to climb down into the well,
discover that it had been used as a cesspool, recover the documents,
and departed (RIP, Sandy, you were a Cool Trip!). LTC (later COL)
Rajala had arrived, been medevac'd with half of our detachment to
Japan and LTC Dunkleberger assumed command and a new operations
officer CPT (P) Al Girard came on board. That was in June or July of
1968. We were informed shortly thereafter that a corpse thought to be
Nolan's mortal remains had been recovered after an engagement with (I
think) the 1st CAV. Two Special Agents from the 1st CAV CI Team came
to DaNang and briefed us, advising that there had been a battle where
Cav soldiers had engaged some NVA and among the bodies, an
unidentified Negro had been discovered. We got the Cav guys hot
showers, massages and a complimentary around the world all-nighter at
Suzanne's House and they returned to the field. I traveled to the
DaNang Mortuary Detachment, located in a large warehouse at the USAF
base, photographed and fingerprinted the nude corpse of what appeared
to be a Negro male with many contusions, fragment wounds and which was
partially dismembered. That was the last I officially heard of the
Salt and Pepper Team. When assigned to the EGRESS - RECAP Team in
Washington, DC I recall reading the questions to be asked of the
returnees and they included queries about knowledge of defectors.
When working with OACSI in the late 1970's I met with Vernon Walters
several times and once remarked to him about the case. He would only
shake his head and say that "that was a real mess". Recommend you
read his book "Silent Missions" although it is profoundly Silent on
the many issues.
I do not know to this day if the corpse was Mr. Nolan. After that
incident I was fully occupied until DEROS with a sabotage
investigation of helicopter gunships wherein a Dissident Within the
Army assigned as a mechanic had shorted fire control wires for the
chin turret 40mm grenade launcher thus resulting in two aircraft
shooting themselves down. After our chief interrogator and polygraph
operator CWO4 Anne McDonough came up from Saigon and polygraphed some
likely suspects we identified the soldier and sequestered him for
protected evacuation to CONUS since there was a death warrant out for
him on the street. I believe that he was court martialled at the
Presidio but got off on the usual technicalities. I and my partner
after hearing about the court martial made sure that the guys at the
aviation detachment had his full name, service number, home of record
address, photographs and fingerprints for appropriate resolution
later.
Even today, I am unsure of the "big picture" and have many doubts
about just who I was investigating. The only things I can positively
state is that there were sworn statements describing a Black GI who
was said to be fighting alongside the NVA and that he was killed in a
firefight. We sifted through many investigative leads to try to
locate him. I did not see him fight so I cannot state that he did; I
interviewed soldiers and marines who said they saw a Negro and a
Caucasian out on the battle line; the interviewees appeared to be
credible witnesses. There was an active counterintelligence
investigation concerning the matter. I photographed and fingerprinted
the corpse of a male Negro in the DaNang mortuary who was said to have
been found "on the wire" after an engagement with some US soldiers.
The corpse appeared to have bullet holes and fragmentation wounds; it
was partially dismembered, bloated, missing several fingers, nude and
full of decomposition products (gas and fluids).
I recognize that this anecdotal history is perhaps not as detailed or
as specific as some would prefer. However, _please_ recall that:
1) This was 30 years ago;
2) I was a 22 year old E6 scared shitless all the time; well not
exactly shitless, since I messed my pants several times and thought I
was the only one in a war who ever did;
3) I was totally afraid of fucking up and being reclassified back to
MOS 11F and going into the bush as a squad leader for which I would
have been totally unprepared;
4) I Had no concept of history or the importance of what I was doing
at the time;
5) I continually hoped and prayed that I would not fall asleep on
guard duty on the roof of #10 Duy Tan or House #13 at 0230 and let my
buddies down.
I welcome any further inquiries - get 'em while the brain cells are
still there.
Regards
David Edwin Mann
CWO-4, USA (Ret)
Special Agent, MI, Credentials #3325 (Retired)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNX7JprebSZiMaN67EQI5DQCgkFMEIbVxY1skZN8aMxdD6mvI5scAn3qZ
zHjGsDTIzUNbu5ZtJM4xd+AK
=PQJy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
PBylin
>From: Karen R Sabog <kal...@aloha.net>
>Date: Wed, Jun 10, 1998 05:18 EDT
>Message-id: <357E4F57...@aloha.net>
>
>A keyword search on the same database for "return of remains"
>also returns a record mentioning my uncle Mateo Sabog. Does that
>mean it's true or pertinent? Obviously not since he's alive!
>
>or pertinent? Hmmmm ....
>
>Karen
>
>
Hello Karen,
Be careful...the Bob 'N' Joe show will really try to put the "Bad word" on
you...<g>.
Please give my best to your uncle for me, please.
George Moore
Misterfixit wrote in message <6lmhk1$m...@examiner.concentric.net>...
<snip>
>I welcome any further inquiries - get 'em while the brain cells are
>still there.
>
>Regards
>
>David Edwin Mann
>CWO-4, USA (Ret)
>Special Agent, MI, Credentials #3325 (Retired)
Sir! Keep 'em coming. Everyone around here supports you 150%.
George Moore, http://www.slip.net/~georgem/khlavn.htm
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Wyatt Earp wrote in message
<6lq148$2lb$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Misterfixit, your response to my 6/10/98 Salt
and Pepper question is appreciated and is certainly informative.
Additionally, it is noted
that you have had a most interesting military
career.
Because you fingerprinted the remains of what
could have been Pepper, then it should be known if the remains were
Nolan or not. . If it
was not Nolan then there is the possibility of a
third defector. A possibility because he may not
have been in the US military. If the remains were
identified as an American serviceman and
not Nolan, then there is factually a third
defector.
If the preceding is correct, lets speculate. Only
Garwood and Nolan were reported to the
Department of Defense as defectors. The USMC is a very proud
organization and would
not want one their own known as a defector.
Maybe that guy was a marine. Maybe the USMC was involved in some sort
of
mischeif
where he was not reported as a marine defector
to DOD. Just speculating.......
Wyatt Earp
Dear Marshal,
I think it is important that I cannot say with certainty that the body
I fingerprinted was Mr. Nolan. It may have been another, yet
unacknowledged defector.
Before I would speculate that there was a third defector I would want
to know the dates of Mr. Nolan's death and recovery of remains. I
would ask the following questions:
1) Is there a copy of Mr. Nolan's death certificate and if so provide
a copy
2) What was the time date and place of death
3) Do the fingerprints obtained at Mr. Nolan's induction match the
fingerprints taken from the corpse
4) If there is factual evidence such as that requested above which
would establish that Mr. Nolan died under circumstances where it
appeared that he was engaging in combat against the US military, has
the US Government decided that he was a Defector.
5) After examination of the statements and time frame mentioned by Mr.
Mann, are those times, dates and circumstances congruent with
previously established facts about Mr. Nolan's demise.
6) If Mr. Mann's statement is at variance with that of the official
version, what is the likelihood that Mr. Mann is either mistaken or
untruthful.
7) Are there other former members of the 1st Bn, 525th MI Group who
recall the Salt and Pepper investigations
8) Is the Nolan dossier available through the FOIA from the US Army
Investigative Records Repository
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNYCavLebSZiMaN67EQIbRwCfY/f90uXVrMFd4yv96Cgm3yN+0h0An3s4
d1BIUPZJiV71uoD7z0sOWldN
=+G6a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Misterfixit
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Wyatt Earp wrote in message
<6lrp1h$a9e$1...@newsd-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Misterfixit,
It is unlikely that the remains of the person of African decent, that
you
fingerprinted in I Corps in 1968, was that
of Nolan. McKinley Nolan was reportedly
killed in approximately 1974. If the person
killed in combat against US forces in 1968
was in fact a deserter from the US military, then he would be a third
defector.
A defector that the USG has not publicly
acknowledged.
Wyatt Earp
Dear Marshal,
Well the plot just thickened, didn't it?
If there is some official documents or statements to verify the 1974
date of Nolan's death, then the person whose fingerprints I took must
have been either a third defector or a person with Negroid racial
characteristics. (I hesitate to use words like "African-American" or
"African" since there are other possibilities as to place of birth and
or nationality than just Africa and the USA.)
Do we have any FOIA or other documents from IIR's (Intelligence
Information Reports) originated by either the 525th MI or the III MAF
G2 regarding the incident?
It would be appropriate to locate and query other MI agents from the
DaNang CI Detachment and the III MAF G2/CI Team (9th CI Team I think).
I am going to take my recollected list of names and try to track them
down. I must have some old orders around with social secutiy numbers
of some of the guys too which will help.
I am starting my own research project and will keep you and the group
advised.
My regards to Miss Kitty.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.5.5 for non-commercial use <http://www.nai.com>
iQA/AwUBNYILabebSZiMaN67EQLbCgCfUJMDitsRCl1/lMcPhUSqPDXNClQAoOYs
oH5Mn68TqLWiFQ5cqluElCGy
=fuXf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
RJDES
In article <6llr8r$pu4$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Wyatt Earp asked:
>Misterfixit, I agree with you that there is a confusing aspect to this
>thread. You said that you were aware of the two offically known
>defectors. I assume that you are referring to
>Garwood and Nolan. You also said that you
>were aware of the "Salt and Pepper" team.
>
>Questions: If Salt and Pepper were not Garwood and Nolan,
>who were they? Even if Garwood was "Salt" , who was
>"Pepper"? What was the final resolve of the Salt and
>Pepper case anyway? Or were they just a myth?
>
>Bob and Joe are two highly respected and
>knowledgeable members of the intelligence
>community, and with expertise in this area.
>Maybe they would be kind enough to offer
>some comments about Salt and Pepper.
>
>Wyatt Earp
Wyatt,
I was taking a few minutes to catch up on events in the newsgroup when I read
your note. Good question. I'm tied up with a project that does not permit me
enough time to answer your question right away; however, I will try to put a
few notes together on the subject as soon as this project is finished.
Regards, Robert J. Destatte