The Mystery of Iowa
BigRedWingsFan
asking for help in restoring Iowa and helping the folks affected by the
floods?
Where is the media asking the tough questions about why the federal
government hasn't solved the problem? Asking where the FEMA trucks and
trailers are?
Why isn't the Federal Government relocating Iowa people to free hotels in
Chicago?
When will Spike Lee say that the Federal Government blew up the levees that
failed in Des Moines?
Where are Sean Penn and the Dixie Chicks?
Where are all the looters stealing high-end tennis shoes and big screen
television sets?
When will we hear Governor Chet Culver say that he wants to rebuild a
"vanilla" Iowa, because that's the way God wants it?
Where is the hysterical 24/7 media coverage complete with reports of
cannibalism?
Where are the people declaring that George Bush hates white, rural people?
How come in 2 weeks, you will never hear about the Iowa flooding ever again?
It is a mystery!
--
-------------
"I'd Rather Hunt With Dick Cheney than Ride With Ted Kennedy"
!Jones
"BigRedWingsFan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Where is the media asking the tough questions about why the federal
>government hasn't solved the problem?
What problem? If you build something that blocks water, it piles up
on it until it pushes whatever it is out of the way... it's not a
problem. If people build behind these things, the water will get them
sooner or later. That's why it's called a "flood plain" and it's as
elemental as the rotational force of the earth; all the King's horses
and all the King's men...
It's not a problem any high-school physics student couldn't solve: the
water always wins... period.
I have a solution: breach *all* of the artificial levees now... let
the river do that which rivers do... and will continue to do
regardless of how frantically we fill sandbags. People are free to
build their houses where ever they wish; however, when the rains come,
Old Man River is *not* our friend! Don't expect me to pay for your
house if you get too chummy with him!
Jones
BigRedWingsFan
"!Jones" <h...@there.org> wrote in message
news:3v2664dr5ijs8blfn...@4ax.com...
Likewise with cities that remain in the bottom of a cereal bowl such as New
Orleans.
>
> Jones
>
Billzz
The only problem is trying to determine what a "flood plain" is. We built a
house in Texas, about two hundred foot altitude, twenty feet above the
100-year flood plain and we had to do a lot of engineering to convince the
county to let us build there. Fortunately there was another house at the
fifteen-foot level. There was a creek, on three sides of the acre lot, and
kids used to come to the white sides of the eroded creek to collect
fossilized scallop shells, perfectly preserved, looking just like the Shell
Oil sign. I asked my geology friend (there's a lot of them in Texas, mostly
oil people) and he said that there was no lack of fossils, as all of Texas
was, at one time, under the sea.
I flashed back to the time I was in the Army and we took a jeep to the top
of Mt. Junipero Serra, on the coastal range, in California. The deal was to
have a C-ration lunch, and leave your name on the carton, along with the
other hundreds, to show that you were once there and that we supposed that
it was important, even though no one cared. The thing is that I saw my
first fossilized scallop shell. Some 5000 feet high, and even that place was
once under water.
Now we live at the 4000 foot level, in the Sierra Nevada. We don't have
flood insurance. But altitude seems to be no guarantee. The people in the
midwest are now undergoing a 500-year flood. So who knew?
!Jones
Agree.
!Jones
<billzz...@starband.net> wrote:
>Now we live at the 4000 foot level, in the Sierra Nevada. We don't have
>flood insurance. But altitude seems to be no guarantee. The people in the
>midwest are now undergoing a 500-year flood. So who knew?
Well, the "xx-year" flood means little and wasn't used by a
meteorologist, I'm pretty sure. The problem is the artificial levees.
St Louis builds a massive levee and it works; thus St Louis can grow
right up to the river. But... oops! That levee pushes the water east
making the normal flooding worse on the other side. No problem; the
COE builds a levee there, also... and in *every* community up and down
the river, they clamor for the government to intervene and build them
a levee. Now we have constrained the river,,, or tried to, anyway.
When the floods come, the water cannot expand into its normal plain,
so it goes up, thereby gaining speed. As the levees begin to burst or
are topped, the result is catastrophic flooding in places that are
well above the flood plain; the flood happened because the COE messed
with it.
There isn't any more water than there was 50 years ago; the river has
always flooded. We've built massive walls on both sides of it and
that's a bad idea.
Jones
La N
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:41:56 -0700, in alt.war.vietnam "Billzz"
> >
> always flooded. We've built massive walls on both sides of it and
> that's a bad idea.
>
There's something about trying to harness Mother Nature that makes the best
laid plans of man tend to backfire ...
- nilita
Jean Smith
"Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote:
Isn't Geology wonderful? Let's hear it for building mountains.
Anyone recall what is supposed to connect the Gulf of California to Lake
Tahoe? Scripps Institute had a program on it in amongst the discussions
of the effects of global warming lectures a couple of years ago? I'm
thinking 'fault.'
--
Rhyme Rhythm Results: http://www.educationalrap.com/ http://www.here-now.org/
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/16/AR2008061601734.html
Kandahar http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91625817
Jennifer Hudson please call (866)675-2008 Al Gore http://www.algore.com/
Don T
news:go_termite-66B72...@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Think "failed rift" instead, Death Valley is in/part of that rift. The
valley of the Mississippi is also a "failed rift" valley. The Great Rift
valley in Northern Africa is an example of an active rift with Volcanic
action and the whole nine yards.
--
Don Thompson
Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "
There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe
It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain
FD
"BigRedWingsFan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Your right wing comments, as usual, are heavy in bigotry and ignorance
and short on facts and humanity.
New Orleans was a city of 250,000 persons. The death entire city was
evacuated along with most hospitals. Death toll was 135.
Iowa's main cities were Cedar Rapids of 120,000 population, 25,000 and
one hospital were evacuated. Iowa City was 60,000 population and about
500 houses were under evacuation orders.
FEMA response in New Orleans was late and laughable:
"After Katrina devastated the Gulf Coast in 2005, FEMA came into New
Orleans late and unprepared, and soon became a symbol of government
bungling. President Bush's compliment to FEMA Director Michael D. Brown
‹ "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job!" ‹ became a big joke."
FMA (Good 'ol Brownie's) response in Iowa and the Midwest:
"After the rain started falling in early June, FEMA arrived with 13
million sandbags to pile onto the levees, 200 generators, and 30 trucks
to haul off debris. Across the upper Midwest, the agency has delivered
nearly 3.6 million liters of water and 192,000 ready-to-eat meals. About
650 inspectors are working in Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin alone.
In Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin alone, FEMA has received about 45,000
registrations for assistance from disaster victims. The agency has
already handed out $81 million in housing assistance funds, said Carlos
Castillo, a FEMA official.
Flooded-out homeowners said FEMA has been quick to dispense checks, and
leaders in inundated towns in Iowa said the agency wasted little time in
assessing damage. That is key to getting federal disaster declarations
that trigger eligibility for assistance, including money to help repair
or replace a home.
"They have been trying hard to be proactive throughout this crisis, and
had people on site almost immediately after the flooding began," said
Iowa Lt. Gov. Patty Judge."
New Orleans has been devastated, never to be reclaimed by its citizens
and Iowa will be thriving on Ethanol and fructose corn syrup money.
Guys like you got this asshole elected and we will now require decades
to recover and make this nation half of what it was before.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/floods/2008-06-23-fema_N.htm
BigRedWingsFan
"FD" <F...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:FD-4676DD.20...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
You really haven't a clue, do you?
FD
"BigRedWingsFan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
You surely didn't post that crap just for "atta-boys", did you?
> >
> > New Orleans was a city of 250,000 persons. The death entire city was
> > evacuated along with most hospitals. Death toll was 135.
> >
> > Iowa's main cities were Cedar Rapids of 120,000 population, 25,000 and
> > one hospital were evacuated. Iowa City was 60,000 population and about
> > 500 houses were under evacuation orders.
> >
> > FEMA response in New Orleans was late and laughable:
> >
> > "After Katrina devastated the Gulf Coast in 2005, FEMA came into New
> > Orleans late and unprepared, and soon became a symbol of government
> > bungling. President Bush's compliment to FEMA Director Michael D. Brown
> > Đ "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job!" Đ became a big joke."
BigRedWingsFan
You really haven't a clue, do you? There was no racism or bigotry, and
definitely no ignorance included with the post. Only the facts, son. YOU
and YOUR kind of people are the ones who made New Orleans the den of
iniquity and cesspool of the country, reliant on its Democrat politicians
for social programs and the associated addictions to "free" assistance, that
it had become in the years before Katrina.
The mid-west has never needed or wanted what the liberals have to offer
(dependency on government, welfare for all, etc.). They'd rather take care
of themselves and their neighbors and not make a major production out of it.
You are obviously unfamiliar with those kind of people. How many pounds of
free cheese and butter do you get each month?
BTW, Wikipedia, written primarily by a bunch of left-leaning geeks, has an
excellent time-line of Katrina and who did what when. Perhaps you should go
educate yourself (or are you afraid you'll finally learn that the city was
not ordered to mandatory evacuate (and yet countless thousands of people did
not leave, choosing to stay behind and loot what was left of their city,
create mayhem for the good citizenry that stayed behind, and make rescue
efforts more difficult) by its own leaders (the governor and the mayor were
both Democrats incase you didn't know) until two full days after President
Bush suggested to the Democrat Governor that it be done). You are also
woefully ignorant of the facts surrounding the current flooding in Iowa,
Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri. A hell of a lot more people have been
affected in hundreds of cities and small towns as well as rural areas than
you mention. I would venture a guess that the number is in excess of what
you claim were affected by Katrina, they're just not all in one spot.
Now piss off. I shan't reply to you again, you obviously have nothing
worthwhile or honest to say.
Justin Case
You seem to overlook the slow reaction of the state governor, a New Orleans
mayor who is/was in way over his head, the lack of state and local planning
and decades of neglect and diverted funds for maintenance of the levees.
If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't you be
proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act together?
Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and got
them on the right track.
FD
"Justin Case" <Thin...@pacbell.net> wrote:
Yup. Nagin and the Blanco were not over-achievers, it's true. And New
Orleans was one of the urban areas in trouble along with the likes of
Cleveland, Detroit and others. But that is hardly an excuse to treat
them with total disregard. FEMA under "Brownie" *was* totally screwed.
You can hardly pass the buck on this one. Like many other governmental
agencies under this administration, it was headed by a political crony
and incompetent.
> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't you be
> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act together?
> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and got
> them on the right track.
Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government agencies,
was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that screwed it
up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
silly.
Justin Case
I'm not defending Brown or the administration but I don't believe anyone
could have been successful with the New Orleans disaster. New Orleans was a
disaster waiting to happen and anyone who was foolish enough to take
responsibility was doomed to get burned. New Orleans was a disaster and
FEMA and the Bush administration had to fall on their sword. There was
much screams of racism and to place blame where much of it deserved to be
placed would have caused far more problems.
>
>> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't you
>> be
>> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act together?
>> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and
>> got
>> them on the right track.
>
> Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government agencies,
> was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that screwed it
> up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
> silly.
Obviously you know little about the operation of government agencies.
FD
"Justin Case" <Thin...@pacbell.net> wrote:
W, not placing any value in government, has mismanaged, if not sabotaged
most agencies with mandates to safeguard the people. Unless you are a
Libertarian, you should be concerned. Although I agree with you on much
of what you say about New Orleans, protecting Bush's management of FEMA
and FEMA's management of the disaster is absolutely foolhardy. You can
look to most other agencies and find the same level of mismanagement. Of
course, there are some, who just as well would see a minority urban
center like New Orleans done in, but we won't go there.
> >> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't you
> >> be
> >> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act together?
> >> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and
> >> got
> >> them on the right track.
> >
> > Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government agencies,
> > was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that screwed it
> > up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
> > silly.
>
> Obviously you know little about the operation of government agencies.
"Obviously" is a good indication you don't know shit about what follows.
FD
Zombywoof <Zomby...@cox.net> wrote:
> Well at least the SCOTUS has started us on the trip back.
>
I don't know about you, but I'm going to be packin'. When Blackwater
comes to my door I want to be ready.
> BTW -- why is the observation that the people of Iowa not getting the
> same level of media & celebrity coverage as New Orleans racist? Were
> they any less devastated? Where is your blame for the Mayor of New
> Orleans who did take care of his "people"?
>
I think you are commenting on the original post. I didn't refer to
racism that I know of, although it's implied in that post. Nagin? He's
culpable as well. But that's no excuse for the FED's incompetence.
> New Orleans was a cluster-fuck of magnificent proportions. Plenty of
> blame to go around without it being one "Wing" or another. All-in-all
> it showed to me the overall lack of "Personal Responsibility" that is
> pervasive in our "Nanny" Cities & States. All to many people have
> forgot how to rely on themselves and expect the government to even
> wipe their ass for them.
>
The only "wing" I talked about was with reference to the original
article, which seemed to be one of the right wing blurbs that I find
stashed in the toilet compartments at the office. If you don't fact
check, (or think) they can really get you pissed.
> Turning the Superdome into a third world shit hole was the action of
> elected officials (of either wing), or the people who were there?
That was Nagin's idea. Incredible that they couldn't get all the poor
folks evacuated. The problems of dealing with a large urban center
facing a disaster is a bit different than the iowa floods. That was the
point of my response.
FD
"BigRedWingsFan" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Born and raised midwest; Not too far from you if you are a Detroit fan.
Always worked - hate cheese.
> BTW, Wikipedia, written primarily by a bunch of left-leaning geeks, has an
> excellent time-line of Katrina and who did what when. Perhaps you should go
> educate yourself (or are you afraid you'll finally learn that the city was
> not ordered to mandatory evacuate (and yet countless thousands of people did
> not leave, choosing to stay behind and loot what was left of their city,
> create mayhem for the good citizenry that stayed behind, and make rescue
> efforts more difficult) by its own leaders (the governor and the mayor were
> both Democrats incase you didn't know) until two full days after President
> Bush suggested to the Democrat Governor that it be done). You are also
> woefully ignorant of the facts surrounding the current flooding in Iowa,
> Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri. A hell of a lot more people have been
> affected in hundreds of cities and small towns as well as rural areas than
> you mention. I would venture a guess that the number is in excess of what
> you claim were affected by Katrina, they're just not all in one spot.
>
I read the Wiki time line before I responded. Bet you didn't before your
initial post. You presume many poor stayed behind to rob. Most stayed
behind because they had no transport and couldn't get out. Yes, the
mayor and Governor were culpable as well. It ain't a perfect world, but
you can't wish a disaster on all our impoverished urban centers. Or do
you have another idea? But, regardless of the scale of the midwestern
flooding, a disaster in a major urban center is quite a different deal.
If you have other death count figures to illustrate the point, feel free.
You know, you can claim that all poor are deficient, freeloaders or
whatever you prefer, but many are disadvantaged, disabled and in need.
Many of the homeless that are pointed out with distain by some are
handicapped persons put out on the street in (and since) the 80's with
no alternative services.
> Now piss off. I shan't reply to you again, you obviously have nothing
> worthwhile or honest to say.
>
I don't need a reply; I can get this right wing crap every day of the
week from any number of sources. What is the real irony is how so many
virtuous citizens are so focused on hating the welfare moms and other
poor that you are voting into office big money guys that are robbing
this country blind. Makes the welfare folks seem like pikers. Most of
excesses in the welfare system was capped off in the Clinton
administration, anyhow. Incredible!
Justin Case
I'm not defending FEMA but rather pointing out the primary reason for their
failure. Don't you view it as odd that FEMA did a complete turn around
dealing with this latest midwest flooding? How could they improve so
significantly under the same administration? And how could FEMA have
performed adequately when dealing with disasters prior to the hurricane?
Yes, FEMA failed but peole don't really want to seriously discuss the
reasons why. It's much easier to blame the federal government (which in
effect is blaming no one) and Republicans have cowardly fallen on their
collective sword. Of course, that is poltically and socially more
acceptable than an honest appraisal of what really occurred. Try doing a
little research into the large Vietnamese community within New Orleans and
see how they are faring.
And please don't give me that crap about a minority urban center unless you
honestly want to look at the what has occurred. Liberals seem to have a
penchant for providing the boat, fishing equipment and accepting excuses for
those who miss said boat for the sole reason that liberals feel the riders
aren't really capable to fish. And speaking of unwanted minorities, why
don't you research the rather large Vietnamese community within New Orleans
and see how they have fared. Of course, don't take my word for it. Try
listening to Bill Cosby and you might learn something which few people have
the balls to say. The answer is honest dialogue, self evaluation and people
willing to talk without experiencing racial guilt.
>
>> >> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't
>> >> you
>> >> be
>> >> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act
>> >> together?
>> >> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and
>> >> got
>> >> them on the right track.
>> >
>> > Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government agencies,
>> > was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that screwed
>> > it
>> > up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
>> > silly.
>>
>> Obviously you know little about the operation of government agencies.
>
> "Obviously" is a good indication you don't know shit about what follows.
Odd, that FEMAs record has never had a problem such as this. If this was
standard procedure then I could agree with you.
FD
"Justin Case" <Thin...@pacbell.net> wrote:
As I said, Bush fucked up FEMA as he did many governmental agencies.
After the Katrina disaster, he *had* to fix it. And you are trying to
give him kudos? Bullshit.
> And please don't give me that crap about a minority urban center unless you
> honestly want to look at the what has occurred. Liberals seem to have a
> penchant for providing the boat, fishing equipment and accepting excuses for
> those who miss said boat for the sole reason that liberals feel the riders
> aren't really capable to fish. And speaking of unwanted minorities, why
> don't you research the rather large Vietnamese community within New Orleans
> and see how they have fared. Of course, don't take my word for it. Try
> listening to Bill Cosby and you might learn something which few people have
> the balls to say. The answer is honest dialogue, self evaluation and people
> willing to talk without experiencing racial guilt.
>
I listen to Cosby and applaud his efforts. Until the family values of
some African Americans improves, they will always be unable to advance
economically. (This is not limited to that race, BTW). You might notice
that a great many *are* succeeding these days. Things are changing.
That's as it should be. Welcome to America.
The Vietnamese are an extremely constructive people. As one who fought
for and against them, I can attest to that. So? Are they unwanted? I
miss your point, unless it *is* racial.
Slums have existed for many generations and have been home to many
different racial and cultural groups. You can't quite wish they would go
away and turn your back, (or applaud) if they face a disaster. There are
many inhabitants that are disadvantaged, handicapped or have been raised
in a manner that traps them to that lifestyle. Thank goodness that you
(I guess) and I were born with more advantages. Quit feeling so smug and
righteous. Limbaugh and Coulter make their money doing that; You are a
consumer.
Since we are doing the left wing-right wing thing; one of the great
difficulties of your side is that you listen to a few Limbaugh shows,
read some Coulter and think you are enlightened. Then you preach, in
that patronizing, aloof Limbaugh manner, to all the unenlightened
*liberals* like me. You've got to have a bit more exposure to a wider
range of sources to make that claim, and I assure you I am more well
read than you.
> >
> >> >> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA, shouldn't
> >> >> you
> >> >> be
> >> >> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act
> >> >> together?
> >> >> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass and
> >> >> got
> >> >> them on the right track.
> >> >
> >> > Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government agencies,
> >> > was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that screwed
> >> > it
> >> > up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
> >> > silly.
> >>
> >> Obviously you know little about the operation of government agencies.
> >
> > "Obviously" is a good indication you don't know shit about what follows.
>
> Odd, that FEMAs record has never had a problem such as this. If this was
> standard procedure then I could agree with you.
???
Justin Case
Imagine there is a very large fire and a city asks for help. Now, imagine
when you arrive you find very few fire hydrants, no water pressure and local
fire fighting leaders haven't a clue an how to fight fires. Now imagine you
get blamed. The only way Bush failed is when he accepted blame for the
inactions of corrupt and inept state officals.
>
>> And please don't give me that crap about a minority urban center unless
>> you
>> honestly want to look at the what has occurred. Liberals seem to have a
>> penchant for providing the boat, fishing equipment and accepting excuses
>> for
>> those who miss said boat for the sole reason that liberals feel the
>> riders
>> aren't really capable to fish. And speaking of unwanted minorities, why
>> don't you research the rather large Vietnamese community within New
>> Orleans
>> and see how they have fared. Of course, don't take my word for it. Try
>> listening to Bill Cosby and you might learn something which few people
>> have
>> the balls to say. The answer is honest dialogue, self evaluation and
>> people
>> willing to talk without experiencing racial guilt.
>>
> I listen to Cosby and applaud his efforts. Until the family values of
> some African Americans improves, they will always be unable to advance
> economically. (This is not limited to that race, BTW). You might notice
> that a great many *are* succeeding these days. Things are changing.
> That's as it should be. Welcome to America.
Yes, things are changing and that's good. We will always have malcontents
who blame others for their failures.
>
> The Vietnamese are an extremely constructive people. As one who fought
> for and against them, I can attest to that. So? Are they unwanted? I
> miss your point, unless it *is* racial.
My point was all minority groups have faced their challenges. Vietnamese
weren't exactly looked upon with favor following our involvement in Vietnam.
However, look many other minority groups they have managed to partake of the
American dream. There are many Vietnamese in professional business
including being voted into political office. Chinese, Japanese and Irish
are some of the other dispised minorities who have assimilated well and are
successful. The time has come to let go of blaming someone's great, great,
great grandfather for present day shortcomings, admiration of thuggery and
disdain for education.
>
> Slums have existed for many generations and have been home to many
> different racial and cultural groups. You can't quite wish they would go
> away and turn your back, (or applaud) if they face a disaster. There are
> many inhabitants that are disadvantaged, handicapped or have been raised
> in a manner that traps them to that lifestyle. Thank goodness that you
> (I guess) and I were born with more advantages. Quit feeling so smug and
> righteous. Limbaugh and Coulter make their money doing that; You are a
> consumer.
I'm neithert feeling smug nor self righteous only expressing my contempt for
those who either cannot or will not accept reality. While it's correct to
state FEMA screwed up, it's unfair to define why. However, this attitude
will continue until we all start talking honestly. Many people seem
compelled to prove they aren't racist by accepting blame for actions not
completely their fault. It's much easier to blame Bush wo is in distant
Washington than to blame your neighbors and/or those you foolishly elected.
be
doing the left wing-right wing thing; one of the great
> difficulties of your side is that you listen to a few Limbaugh shows,
> read some Coulter and think you are enlightened. Then you preach, in
> that patronizing, aloof Limbaugh manner, to all the unenlightened
> *liberals* like me. You've got to have a bit more exposure to a wider
> range of sources to make that claim, and I assure you I am more well
> read than you.
I'm sorry if you read my writing as such. You've taken the self righteous
position to FEMA and Bush are entirely to blame because of their ineptness
and racist outlook. You also seem to believe that a president can somehow
destroy a bearacracy and then miraculouly revive it to deal with a disaster
in another location not comprised of a large minority. For you information,
presidents have very little control of a large beauracracy as they can stall
and delay until that president is out of office. The FBI and J Edgar Howver
is a classic example.
>
>> >
>> >> >> If nothing else, considering your remarks concerning FEMA,
>> >> >> shouldn't
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> be
>> >> >> proud and amazed at how quickly FEMA managed to get their act
>> >> >> together?
>> >> >> Hell, it would appear the Bush administration kicked some FEMA ass
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> got
>> >> >> them on the right track.
>> >> >
>> >> > Before his administration, FEMA, along with many government
>> >> > agencies,
>> >> > was reputable and of service to the nation. He's the one that
>> >> > screwed
>> >> > it
>> >> > up, so giving him credit for fixing it when things got hot is pretty
>> >> > silly.
>> >>
>> >> Obviously you know little about the operation of government agencies.
>> >
>> > "Obviously" is a good indication you don't know shit about what
>> > follows.
>>
>> Odd, that FEMAs record has never had a problem such as this. If this was
>> standard procedure then I could agree with you.
>
> ???
FEMA has had it's ups and downs but has never reacted in such a perceived
poorly executed response to a disaster.
FD
"Justin Case" <Thin...@pacbell.net> wrote:
"President Bush said last week that the initial federal efforts were not
acceptable. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Friday that local and
state officials shouldnšt have to share in the blame for the poor
response because they łwere in fact victims and not able to respond.˛"
"Brown, a lawyer, was appointed as FEMA's general counsel in 2001 and
became head of the agency in 2003. The work in Edmond is the only
previous disaster-related experience cited in the biographies. Brown
served as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association
before taking the FEMA job."
"The Washington Post reported on Friday that five of eight top FEMA
officials had come to their jobs with virtually no experience in
handling disasters. The agency's top three leaders, including Brown, had
ties to Bush's 2000 presidential campaign or the White House advance
operation."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/
NEW ORLEANS, June 11 (UPI) -- About $85 million in household goods meant
for Hurricane Katrina victims was given away by the U.S. government, an
investigation found.
CNN reported that among agencies that received goods intended for the
2005 storm victims were the U.S. Bureau of Prisons and the U.S. Postal
Service.
The goods, which included housewares and beds, sat in government
warehouses for two years before the Federal Emergency Management
Agency's giveaway to various federal and state agencies this year.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/06/11/FEMA_gives_away_Katrina_victims_go
ods/UPI-98801213228536/
Ridge stripped FEMA's power over billions of dollars worth of
preparedness grants as well as the creation of a national disaster
response plan. Most of the agency's top staff quit. And after he arrived
at DHS in February, Chertoff decided to take away the rest of FEMA's
preparedness duties.
"Brown would be gone soon enough.
His agency, as he had predicted, was not ready. Its relations with state
and local agencies, as he had warned, were in shambles. Three of its
five operations chiefs for natural disasters and nine of its 10 regional
directors were temporary fill-ins. And as Katrina approached, Brown and
his aides were still balking at a DHS directive to join an interagency
crisis management group -- and ignoring DHS requests for information."
"Once Katrina came ashore, the newly completed National Response Plan
spectacularly failed its first test. Chertoff neglected to activate it
until the day after landfall, and Brown resisted the secretary's efforts
to name him the principal federal official. And the 426-page plan proved
to be mostly irrelevant once local responders were unable to
participate; FEMA had not finalized the "Catastrophic Annex" that was
supposed to guide that situation.
Katrina also triggered the biggest deployment in the National Disaster
Medical System's history. Thompson called the result "a national
embarrassment." In an after-action report, NDMS team leader Timothy
Crowley, a doctor on the Harvard Medical School faculty, called the
deployment a "TOTAL FAILURE."
Crowley's team was summoned late, then sent to Texas instead of
Louisiana, then parked in Baton Rouge for a week while New Orleans
suffered. When the team was finally sent to the disaster zone, it was
immediately overwhelmed, but NDMS leaders told Lowell there was no help
available, even though he later found out that a host of other teams
"had been sitting on their butts for days waiting and asking for
missions."
"The current management team and disaster response is completely
dysfunctional," Crowley wrote. "I never learned what sort of political
agenda or just plain incompetence or stupidity were behind these
decisions." His report was harsh, but not atypical."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/22/AR2005122
202213_5.html
"The dumbing down of this nation as proven by the number of Bush
apologists is alive and well"
FD
Billzz
news:gjkt6496r2fauj53g...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:53:06 GMT, jim <jim1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>
>>A very generous assessment that does not match what I remember. Bush
>>should have taken much quicker personal interest in the preparation
>>and probably should have intervened to override local authority in New
>>Orleans. Any fool could see that from the reports early. It was
>>noted here by many. I recall the FOX newsman on the bridge with
>>Superdome in background almost crying in frustration over the massive
>>clusterfuck.
>>
>>Bush was at his absolute worst here imho.
>>
> I find it amusing that most people say Bush could fuck-up a wet dream,
> then say they wanted him more involved. If the guy truly is an
> alchemist who can turn gold into shit, why would anyone want him
> involved in anything?
> --
> "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
> Moderation is for monks."
Okay, I have a minute. The mission of FEMA is *not* (despite its ill-chosen
name) to be a first responder to emergencies. In fact they are thinking
about changing the name. I suggest, "The Agency That Shows Up When
Everything Is All Over To Issue Federal Checks," (TATSUWEIAOTIFC)
They have only 2600 people.
http://www.heritage.org/research/homelandsecurity/wm870.cfm
The real problem was, as any critical (and educated) observer actually
knows, is that the city did not respond, and the state did not respond. And
the state national guard has, as one of it's missions, to respond to natural
disasters. There is a system to escalate support, apparently it was not
used.
I live in California. Last weekend we had a very unusual series of over a
thousand lightning strikes, and now we have over a thousand forest fires.
Three of which are around us, and the air is not good. But no one expects
FEMA to show up as a first responder. That is a stupid belief.
So I've long since gotten tired of the politicized people that connect
Katrina with FEMA; their sole purpose being to besmirch the Bush
administration. Lord knows the president is a deficient person, but the
president of the United States, or any federal agency, was never named, in
any document, as being a first responder to any local emergency.
Of course this will not stop the politicized people from their (probably
well-knowing) politicized rantings.
But they look stupid to me, and I plonk them. Unfortunately, when people
respond (which is what they want) I see it over, and over, and over.
FD
"Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote:
"Crucial resources" in your source above seems to have been a major
probem. Also the co-ordination thing. A little more history of FEMA
after 911 and before Chertoff would also be helpful.
FEMA got totally messed up after 911 by inclusion into Homeland
Security. Political turf wars between Rich, Brown and others was
unproductive and resulted in a severely compromised agency. Brown,
himself had no relevant experience and was your basic numbnuts political
appointee. This, of course, came to a head with Katrina.
>
> The real problem was, as any critical (and educated) observer actually
> knows, is that the city did not respond, and the state did not respond. And
> the state national guard has, as one of it's missions, to respond to natural
> disasters. There is a system to escalate support, apparently it was not
> used.
>
I think a large number of LNG were in Iraq along with most of their
equipment. I somehow don't remember the NG playing such a large part
overseas in (elective) wartime historically. This obviously compromised
their ability to assist in Katrina. This would be a good research
subject for another time.
> I live in California. Last weekend we had a very unusual series of over a
> thousand lightning strikes, and now we have over a thousand forest fires.
> Three of which are around us, and the air is not good. But no one expects
> FEMA to show up as a first responder. That is a stupid belief.
>
Forest fires come under the jurisdiction of the USDA Forest Service,
another federal agency. These are the folks hopefully saving your life
and property out there. (Hope yours is safe, BTW.)
> So I've long since gotten tired of the politicized people that connect
> Katrina with FEMA; their sole purpose being to besmirch the Bush
> administration. Lord knows the president is a deficient person, but the
> president of the United States, or any federal agency, was never named, in
> any document, as being a first responder to any local emergency.
>
No, they are not first responders, but they have a major responsibility
in disasters like Katrina.
"FEMA's job is to coordinate disaster relief, broken into four areas:
preparedness, response, recovery and mitigation. The key word is
coordinate, and Mr. Brown repeated it time and again during his hearing.
"FEMA is a coordinating agency. We are not a law enforcement agency," he
told lawmakers.
But according to emergency management experts across America, that is no
excuse for Mr. Brown's failures. The federal role is to make things
happen. That means being in the same room with state and local
officials, anticipating and responding to their needs. It means making
sure state and local officials get help, quickly. It means focusing on
what is actually happening."
(There's more in this source if you're interested).
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/opinion/02sun1.html
> Of course this will not stop the politicized people from their (probably
> well-knowing) politicized rantings.
>
Each to his own; apologists or ranters. Guess politics is all in your
POV. But, if you are interested in mine; this particular administration
has clearly placed its political agenda above the interests of the
people and providing an effective government to serve the people. FEMA
and many other agencies (FDA, DOJ, etc.) were compromised by either
incompetence or intent. Perhaps that is why you see so many political
"rantings"from those who disagree. Sorry if it offends.
La N
> In article <e569e$486edc76$9440b19b$31...@STARBAND.NET>,
> > No, they are not first responders, but they have a major responsibility
> in disasters like Katrina.
>
> "FEMA's job is to coordinate disaster relief, broken into four areas:
> preparedness, response, recovery and mitigation. The key word is
> coordinate, and Mr. Brown repeated it time and again during his hearing.
> "FEMA is a coordinating agency. We are not a law enforcement agency," he
> told lawmakers.
>
> But according to emergency management experts across America, that is no
> excuse for Mr. Brown's failures. The federal role is to make things
> happen. That means being in the same room with state and local
> officials, anticipating and responding to their needs. It means making
> sure state and local officials get help, quickly. It means focusing on
> what is actually happening."
>
Having as one of my j*bs worked peripherally with emergency response
agencies, I agree with this post. FEMA screwed the pooch big time when it
came to "coordination" which, indeed, is one of its main functions. When it
comes to federal agencies, of course, the federal government is going to be
blamed. However, there was enough culpability to go around, and I sure
wouldn't let Ray Nagin off the hook. At all.
- nilita
FD
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You can see by my postings to others, I did not. Nagin and Blanco were
disasters, themselves. On the other hand, being from one of our
"rustbelt" cities, I am concerned with the challenges facing these
cities that have largely outlived their economic worth and now are left
as liabilities. Their lack of economic means and population of people at
the bottom of the heap, results in leadership that may be lacking. I
don't know the answers, but we can't just write off these communities as
some posters would have us do, some with vengeance and animosity.
La N
I agree with you. The universal publicity that was given to Katrina and the
aftereffects made that part of the US look like very third worldish.
- nilita
Billzz
And just to add to that, I don't think that they knew the scope of the
problem. In other words, there were more people "there" than they knew
about. Here's something I wrote for something else, but it's part of any
problem in that area.....(it's not too long!)
------------------------------------------------------------
The Swamp
About 1964 the US Army conducted one of the last large-scale wargames
(Vietnam stopped the others) called SwiftStrike III. It went from North
Carolina in the north to Georgia in the south. The 82nd and 101st Airborne
Divisions were the "good guys" and the Second and Third Infantry Divisions
were the "bad" guys. I was a unit commander on the "enemy" side and our
mission was to infiltrate, which we did by going down to the rivers and
sneaking our Jeeps up the dirt trails.
I can never forget the first meeting I had with a black family, living in a
wooden shack by the river. The Jeep, with four crackling radios, must have
looked like something that had landed from Mars. They were wide-eyed and
dumbstruck, and did not say a single word, even though we thought we were
very polite.
The days turned to weeks, and as we made our way my driver managed to
attract the kids, with the C-rations (he made certain to take the four-pack
of cigarettes out) and the fact that he was a black soldier driving a white
captain. They just had to ask. We traded some C-rations for corn, and
okra, and they had crawdads, and we had those really small bottles of
Tabasco.
The story, as best as I can recall, is that they were the families that were
left over when the Civil War ended. They had always had a small plot of
land, away from the main house, where they could retreat. They each had a
small wooden shack, a small plot of land to grow corn, okra, peppers, onions
etc. and in the stream, the traps for the crawfish, and the poles for the
fish. What they did not have was electricity, newspapers, automobiles,
radios, TVs.
So when I heard of Katrina, the first people that I thought of were these
people living by the river. They had no way to get any message, and if they
had a way, they had no transportation, and if they had transportation, they
had no roads, and they had no where to go. And they were very suspicious of
the outside world.
As far as I knew (In the 1960s) the fact that these people existed was
somewhat well known. But no one wanted to count them.
Justin Case
"jim" <jim1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:r7at64ho215em8pfd...@4ax.com...
> [Default] On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:50:05 -0400, "Justin Case"
> should have taken much quicker personal interest in the preparation
> and probably should have intervened to override local authority in New
> Orleans. Any fool could see that from the reports early. It was
> noted here by many. I recall the FOX newsman on the bridge with
> Superdome in background almost crying in frustration over the massive
> clusterfuck.
The president has nothing to do with preparation of FEMAs duties. That's
why he appoints people rather than micro micro manage which woiuld be
completely impossible. The president receives briefings and updates from
department heads but has to depend on those who are in charge to do what
they are supposed to do.
The president cannot arbitrarily intervene in disasters within a state. The
state has to request assistance. And FEMA doesn't maintain massive
warehouses in each state not do they have a massive fleet of vehicles on
hand. If the entire operation (city, state and FEMA) was a cluster fuck
then what would you expect Bush to do other than what was done?
Yes, it was a massive cluster fuck. I can just imagine FEMA arriving only
to find that available buses weren't used, the city had no viable emergency
plan, and evadcuation procedures that were used were poorly thought out.
Now, with all that occurring, FEMA rolls in and then are told to fix it.
Not to mention the delay of the governor to ask for FEMA assistance.
As soon as the race card was played, Bush was jumping through hoops because
it's a white politicians worse nightmare to be accused of being a racist
whether it is true or not.
>
> Bush was at his absolute worst here imho.
>
> Well said.
Justin Case
It's quite obvious why they made those statements. The comment that Bush
doesn't like black people was incorrect but sure received a lot of press and
many actually believed the statement. While the "it will once again be a
choclate city" comment was not taken seriously. The president had to stand
with hat in hand and tell everyone how it was all his fault. Rumsfield
worked for Bush so he sure isn't going to counter his boss.
>
> "Brown, a lawyer, was appointed as FEMA's general counsel in 2001 and
> became head of the agency in 2003. The work in Edmond is the only
> previous disaster-related experience cited in the biographies. Brown
> served as commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association
> before taking the FEMA job."
Then Bush screwed up appointing Brown. The mark of a great leader is to
surround themselves with the best and brightest But I still find it amazing
how FEMA could respond so well with this latest disaster after scewing the
pooch in NE. Someone should get national recognition for such a dramatic
improvement in such a very short time. Now, we know such a turn around just
doesn't occur which leaves us with a dilemma.
FD
"Justin Case" <Thin...@pacbell.net> wrote:
I buy you books and books and all you do is eat the covers.
Bye Justin.
FD
"Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote:
May be some advantages to living off the radar.
With this energy crisis, I'm reminded of the 70's fuel shortage. There
were long lines at the service stations and that was the subject that
consumed the news. A local reporter went down to visit an Amish town
some distance away. He stopped an old Amish fellow in his horse drawn
carriage and asked him what he thought about the fuel crisis. "What fuel
crisis?", he responded.
Take care.
FD
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think that's exactly where we're headed. : (
Beacoup Map
come on guy, there's a difference between keeping your head down and moving
forward as opposed to having your head in the sand (or up yer kiester) and
doing nothing. we've been thru worse and it's prolly gonna be time to
blame Obama for all that's wrong in the world once Bush is gone but we'll
make it thru the Democratic cycle.
despite what the naysayers have to say I don't see the lines of folks trying
to get in any country longer than the lines of the folks wanting in the
US.....we may be wrong but plenty of people want to be just as 'wrong.'
damn VN'ese are coming in hordes, both Communist and our old allies....the
former having finally figured out Uncle Ho fed em some bad sticky rice <G>
FD
"Beacoup Map" <awrli...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Better relish it before it's gone. The global economy is pitting our
labor against a whole world of folks who will work for next to nothing.
The upper crust has done pretty well in the US lately, the middle class
is sucking air. If you don't think our lifestyle is being devalued,
check the price of your home, what healthcare you can afford without
going bust and how far you can afford to drive on your vacation this
year.
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you did ask. BTW, a lot of the immigrants
educated in the US are now headed back overseas these days.
Beacoup Map
moving. the VA takes care of my health care (I know...but I take an active
part in watching what they do <G>) I hate driving anywhere, won't fly
unless I"m at the controls.
we do need to get back to the old system where the rich getting richer
helped them invest in OUR country and peoples.
> Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you did ask. BTW, a lot of the immigrants
> educated in the US are now headed back overseas these days.
those immigrants were going home after graduation long before they came over
here. I'm talking about the folks from all over the world that want to be
part of this failed experiment so many refer to. not the way I describe
failure
I believe we are right in our opinions (pro and con) as long as we do not
contribute to the problems I don't sit on my ass while things go down
the tubes and I hope you will not contribute to the fall. gravity does a
fine job on its own.