labelling writers as "southern" writers

[Hugh Lawson]

On the radio I heard an NPR interview with Drew Gilpen Faust*, in which
she discussed her book on death and the Civil War. During the
discussion Dr Faust mentioned the "southern poet Sidney Lanier".

But Emily Dickenson was just "Emily Dickenson", and not "northern poet
Emily Dickenson" or "New England poet Emily Dickenson.

Is it important to call Sidney Lanier a "southern" poet? If you think
it is important, can you explain why it seems that way to you?

Michael O'Brien, the Cambridge University historian, once commented to
the effect that I you wrote a history of Macon, Georgia, you couldn't
title it "Macon: An American City"; instead, he observed, you'd have to
title it "Macon: A Southern City". I think O'Brien is probably right
about that, but what makes the "southern" label necessary?

--
*Dr Faust is also president of Harvard.

[MITO MINISTER]

Perhaps it's because Southern writers write about Southern themes like
segregation, race relations, Jim Crow, incest, rural violence, etc.?
Or maybe Faulkner's use of Southern speech forms justifies the label?
Just sayin'.

Dr. Faust? Is this a joke?

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

Yes, Dr. Catharine Drew Gilpen Faust is president of Harvard
University. Faust is her married name, so it's her former husband who
was dragged down to hell after selling his soul to the devil. Odds
are he was a Republican, but I can't confirm that. She was raised in
Virginia and is descended from a US senator from Tennessee, so she's
okay by Hugh.

If one actually reads Sidney Lanier, one has no trouble understanding
why he is called a Southern poet.

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

[ snip ]

> If one actually reads Sidney Lanier, one has no trouble understanding
> why he is called a Southern poet.

Explain.

HL

[Hugh Lawson]

[ snip ]

The question was not, why do others apply the label. It was:

"Is it important to call Sidney Lanier a "southern" poet? If you think
it is important, can you explain why it seems that way to you?"

So my question concerns not your speculations about what others might
think, but your own statement of what you think.

HL

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 23, 7:37 am, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why don't YOU explain it, you douchebag! Your classes are over and
done with so stop posing questions as if your readers are 1st-year
undergrads.

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 23, 7:40 am, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

According to WIKI: "He wrote a number of poems, using the "cracker"
and "negro" dialects of his day, about poor white and black farmers in
the Reconstruction South." Themes, locale, language. All Southern.
Happy now?

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

Oh, you made it too easy for Hugh! I was going to tell him to do his
own homework. Hugh must not be the least familiar with Lanier or he
would not have asked the question.

[Hugh Lawson]

Because I want to hear A.Lurker's explanation.

[Hugh Lawson]

No. Re-read the question. And try again.

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

[ snip ]

>>According to WIKI: "He wrote a number of poems, using the "cracker"
>>and "negro" dialects of his day, about poor white and black farmers in
>>the Reconstruction South." Themes, locale, language. All Southern.
>>Happy now?
>
> Oh, you made it too easy for Hugh! I was going to tell him to do his
> own homework. Hugh must not be the least familiar with Lanier or he
> would not have asked the question.

You are speculating about the contents of my mind, A.Lurker, concerning
which your ignorance is dense and think. What I want you to do is
explain the contents of your own mind.

Why do you need the "southern" attached to the "poet"? Why not just
"poet Sidney Lanier"?

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 23, 9:20 pm, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

The question has been answered.

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 08:20:33 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Again, if you actually read Lanier, you'd understand why it's natural
to attach the "Southern" and wouldn't need to ask the question. I
could tell you way -- and indeed the MM already has -- but you're
better off discovering it for yourself.

Hugh, with all due respect, why are you so sensitive about being from
the South?

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 10:59:36 -0500, A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com
wrote:

Make that, "I could tell you WHY..."

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

MM:

>>Why do you need the "southern" attached to the "poet"? Why not just
>>"poet Sidney Lanier"?

A.L:

> Again, if you actually read Lanier, you'd understand why it's natural
> to attach the "Southern" and wouldn't need to ask the question. I
> could tell you way -- and indeed the MM already has -- but you're
> better off discovering it for yourself.

I'll repeat the question.

[Hugh Lawson]

Re: Sidney Lanier

Why not just label him "an American poet"? Are northerners sensitive
about being from the north?

[MITO MINISTER]

No, they are not. They don't give a shit. They are just Americans. YOU
are the one with a complex about your origins. Feeling guilty much?

[Hugh Lawson]

> are the one with a complex about your origins. [ snip ]


Why not just label him an "american poet"? Or just "poet"?

The label doesn't matter to me, except as a technical question. I'm
interested in whether northerners (I count M & M as a northerner
wannabee) need the "southern" label on literary authors.

Why won't you explain M & M if you need the "southern" brand on Sidney
Lanier, and if so, why?

[Hugh Lawson]

Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com> writes:


> I'm
> interested in whether northerners (I count M & M as a northerner
> wannabee) need the "southern" label on literary authors.

I say "literary authors" knowingly. A while back I brought up Basil
Gildersleeve, who like S.Lanier was a Confederate soldier, and after the
war a professor at John Hopkins. Gildersleeve, also like Lanier, wrote
academic books. In fact his Latin grammer is still used by students.

But I don't think Gildersleeve referred to as a "southern
classicist". (AFAIK)

What makes the difference? Why is Sidney Lanier a "southern poet", but
Basil Gildersleeve is just a "classicist", and not "southern
classicist." Another classicist, Clyde Pharr, who edited a well-know
students' edition of Virgil's Aeneid, presents a similar case.

Maybe it's something about American literature, the way scholars defined
it as a field, that bears on this question. Have to look into that.

hl

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

[ snip ]

> Again, if you actually read Lanier, you'd understand why it's natural
> to attach the "Southern" and wouldn't need to ask the question. I
> could tell you way -- and indeed the MM already has -- but you're
> better off discovering it for yourself.

Notice that A.Lurker, by innuendo, accuses others of not having read any
Sidney Lanier, of knowing nothing of Lanier's life. But he identifies no
Lanier poems, quotes nothing from memory, and provides no biographical
information.

Looks like bluffing. Is that what you're doing A.Lurker?




hl

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:07:06 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>

>Re: Sidney Lanier
>
>Why not just label him "an American poet"? Are northerners sensitive
>about being from the north?

He's often called a Southern poet for the same reason Robert Frost is
often called a New England poet. If you read some of his poetry,
you'd understand why, although the MM has spelled it out for you. If
you are a Southern poet, or a New England poet, you are, perforce,
also an American poet. A rose by any other name . . . So of course
Lanier can be called an American poet, and I'm sure he is.

I don't know anyone who is sensitive about being from the North. I
have known some who were sensitive about being from the South, one way
or another. But when it comes to being sensitive about being from
the South, you take the cake, Hugh. If he were alive today, I feel
quite confident Jeff Davis himself would tell you to stop being so
obsessive about it.

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:07:06 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Re: Sidney Lanier
>>
>>Why not just label him "an American poet"? Are northerners sensitive
>>about being from the north?
>
> He's often called a Southern poet for the same reason Robert Frost is
> often called a New England poet.

You are telling me why, in your opinion, *others* call SL a "southern"
poet. What I want to know is whether it's important to you that he be
so described.

hl

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:05:44 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:
>
>> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:07:06 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Re: Sidney Lanier
>>>
>>>Why not just label him "an American poet"? Are northerners sensitive
>>>about being from the north?
>>
>> He's often called a Southern poet for the same reason Robert Frost is
>> often called a New England poet.
>
>You are telling me why, in your opinion, *others* call SL a "southern"
>poet. What I want to know is whether it's important to you that he be
>so described.
>
>hl

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. You're the one making a big
deal out of it.

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:

HL:

>>You are telling me why, in your opinion, *others* call SL a "southern"
>>poet. What I want to know is whether it's important to you that he be
>>so described.
>>
>>hl

A.Lurker

> Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. You're the one making a big
> deal out of it.

HL: You seem to dislike answering questions about your own
beliefs. Instead you concentrate on attacking others abusively.
Shouldn't you try to rise above that?

HL

[Hugh Lawson]

Are you a bluffer, A.Lurker, a hiding behind the skirts of the Lady
Anonymity?

C'mon, 'fess up, A.Lurker. You can always say you were just
kidding. LOL. Or, you can avoid me, and start up a stimulating
conversation with M & M. You and he are soul-mates, wouldn't you say?








HL

[Hugh Lawson]

Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com> writes:


Concerning Sidney Lanier. I grew up in Georgia. Georgia didn't seem to
have many poets to brag about, so it was common in school to read what
are probably SL's best two regarded poems: "The Song of the
Chattahoochee" and "The Marshes of Glynn." (That was before I'd heard of
James Dickey.)

I can recall memorizing (under teacher direction) the more explicitly
religious lines of "Marshes" ("As the marsh hen builds her nest in the
watery sod . . . . ")

Other than the geographic names I can't see anything especially southern
about these poems. They make me think of the way Pennsysvania Quaker
William Bartram merged his descriptions of nature with a kind of piety.

Sidney Lanier may be best known, at least to churchgoers for his poem,
"Into the woods my master went".

Here's a youtube rendition. Warning to religion-contemners, it's quite
"Christian".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMkT34P_qIA

and here is the text of "Song of the Chattahoochee":

http://www.bartleby.com/102/213.html

and here, "The Marshes of Glynn",

http://www.bartleby.com/102/214.html



hl

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:18:13 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hugh, I have the feeling you're the one who's bluffing.

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:


>>Are you a bluffer, A.Lurker, a hiding behind the skirts of the Lady
>>Anonymity?
>>
>>C'mon, 'fess up, A.Lurker. You can always say you were just
>>kidding. LOL. Or, you can avoid me, and start up a stimulating
>>conversation with M & M. You and he are soul-mates, wouldn't you say?
>
> Hugh, I have the feeling you're the one who's bluffing.

Well at least you are reporting your own thoughts. No, search
within a bit and try to find a thought about why it's important to you
to label S.L. a "southern" poet.



hl

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 26, 8:14 pm, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to be that it's important to YOU why or why not Lanier should
be labelled as a Southern writer. Keep you up nights, does it?

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:14:29 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hugh, I've already told you it's not important to me. But for some
reason it's very important to you that be important to me. Why?

[Hugh Lawson]

A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com writes:


>>Well at least you are reporting your own thoughts. No, search
>>within a bit and try to find a thought about why it's important to you
>>to label S.L. a "southern" poet.
>
> Hugh, I've already told you it's not important to me. But for some
> reason it's very important to you that be important to me. Why?

OK, if it's unimportant to you so be it.

HL

[Hugh Lawson]

Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com> writes:


> Is it important to call Sidney Lanier a "southern" poet? If you think
> it is important, can you explain why it seems that way to you?

Why I asked this:

I wanted to find out whether anybody thinks it's important to call
Sidney Lanier a "southern" poet. It seemed to me likely that some
would.

This is part of a continuing inquiry of mind about what keeps alive the
idea of southern distinctiveness. In particular I'm interested in the
extent to which non-southerners believe in southern distinctiveness, and
what they find useful in such a belief. What southerners think about it
is worth studying, but that's not a major part of my inquiry.

This is a touchy subject, as I have discovered from asking about it and
observing reactions. I'm also interested in the touchiness aspect.

My interest in these questions grew out of my experience in this
newsgroup.

For purposes of this inquiry, a southerner is an American who would
answer "yes" if asked, "Are you a southerner?" The South is just the
parts of the United States where southerners predominate numerically.
This is what I sometimes call the actually existing South, to
distinguish it from the images that sometimes appear in populaur
culture.

[MITO MINISTER]

YOU being Hugh "apologist" Lawson.

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 27, 7:28 pm, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought a Southerner was someone who answered "Well, heck, I guess I
am a Southerner!"

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 27, 7:28 pm, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

Translation: "I, Hugh Lawson, am trying to whitewash the South of its
350-year history of slavery and Jim Crow".

[Hugh Lawson]

MITO MINISTER <cigarm...@gmail.com> writes:

[ snip ]

> Translation: "I, Hugh Lawson, am trying to whitewash the South of its
> 350-year history of slavery and Jim Crow".

This utters an idea in the brain of M & M. It tells readers what M & M is
thinking. It appears that M & M entertains notions about some fellow named
"Hugh Lawson".



hl

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 28, 7:59 am, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

I DO entertain notions about you. Correct ones. You are a Southern
apologist, pretending to have some sort of academic interest in
questions of group identity and history. Your agenda is transparent:
You wish to absolve the White South of its heinous crimes. You are
fooling no one, Boy!

[Hugh Lawson]

MITO MINISTER <cigarm...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sep 28, 7:59 am, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> MITO MINISTER <cigarmanw...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>

HL:

>> This utters an idea in the brain of M & M. It tells readers what M & M is

>> It appears that M & M entertains notions about some fellow named
>> "Hugh Lawson".

M & M:

> I DO entertain notions about you. Correct ones. You are a Southern
> apologist, pretending to have some sort of academic interest in
> questions of group identity and history. Your agenda is transparent:
> You wish to absolve the White South of its heinous crimes. You are
> fooling no one, Boy!

HL:

Your abusive thoughts are your own personal affair, M & M.

[MITO MINISTER]

You are a White Southerner, through and through: an apologist for 350
years of White Supremacy and a tweedy version of Byron de la Beckwith.

[Hugh Lawson]

MITO MINISTER <cigarm...@gmail.com> writes:

[ snip ]

> You are a White Southerner, through and through: an apologist for 350
> years of White Supremacy and a tweedy version of Byron de la Beckwith.

The ideas M&M turns over in his head are purely his own affair. They
have nothing to do with any of my concerns.

HL

[MITO MINISTER]

On Sep 30, 7:18 pm, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are the "mild and reasonable" face of the White South. A facade
that masks the White Supremacy that is still the hallmark of the white
South. You fool no one, Boy!

[Hugh Lawson]

MITO MINISTER <cigarm...@gmail.com> writes:

[ snip ]

> You are the "mild and reasonable" face of the White South. A facade
> that masks the White Supremacy that is still the hallmark of the white
> South. You fool no one, Boy!

M & M's posts utter the thoughts he turns over in his mind. They have
nothing to do with me.

HL