Re: Former slave's letter -- is this a fake ?

[slotrot]

On Apr 21, 10:25 am, Garrett <2x...@none.com> wrote:
> Can this slave have been this fluent ?   I figure it must have been a
> phoney by somebody trying to make the South look bad.
>
> Former slave's letter to his 'old master' surfaces again
>
> Read more:http://digitaljournal.com/article/318800#ixzz1sgSZGUBg
>
> http://kottke.org/12/02/what-happened-to-the-former-slave-that-wrote-...

Highly likely a phoney. Slaves were not allowed to read or right, nor
were they allowed to be taught either skill.
Another lost cause, lost cause.

[Hugh Lawson]

slotrot <rtau...@rogers.com> writes:

[ snip ]

> Highly likely a phoney. Slaves were not allowed to read or right, nor
> were they allowed to be taught either skill.
> Another lost cause, lost cause.

Some of the slaves learned to read, an example being the brilliant
Frederick Douglass. If you haven't read any of Douglass's books,
slotrot, I recommend that you do so. I have.

Douglass got slavery right. And just as important he got "the American
system of caste" (not just the Southern system of caste) right also.
Douglass was a great American.

[A.Lu...@who-knows-where.com]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:12:31 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Even Stonewall Jackson taught at least one slave to read and write in
defiance of the law.

[slotrot]

On Apr 21, 9:40 pm, A.Lur...@who-knows-where.com wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:12:31 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.law...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>
> >slotrot <rtaub...@rogers.com> writes:
>
> >[ snip ]
>
> >> Highly likely a phoney.  Slaves were not allowed to read or right, nor
> >> were they allowed to be taught either skill.
> >> Another lost cause,  lost cause.
>
> >Some of the slaves learned to read, an example being the brilliant
> >Frederick Douglass.  If you haven't read any of Douglass's books,
> >slotrot, I recommend that you do so. I have.
>
> >Douglass got slavery right. And just as important he got "the American
> >system of caste" (not just the Southern system of caste) right also.
> >Douglass was a great American.
>
> Even Stonewall Jackson taught at least one slave to read and write in
> defiance of the law.

One? What an accomplishment. What was the slave population and what
are the odds the letter is real?

[Hugh Lawson]

slotrot <rtau...@rogers.com> writes:

> what
> are the odds the letter is real?

If we had looked more closely, we would be discussing the letter in a
different way. ;-)

Lydia Marie Child included it as "Letter from a Freedman, to His Old
Master" in one of her books. There a note appears "Written just as he
dictated it." (Child, Freedmen's Book, p. 265)

See it here:
http://tinyurl.com/83ge9mz

and what purports to be the newspaper printing here:
http://tinyurl.com/7ew53ch

If those are correct, then the stated author did not write it in his own
hand, but dictated it to another.

Here is another account of the letter, with the text in form that is
easier to read.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/to-my-old-master.html


And here is some evidence that the author existed.

http://tinyurl.com/743dbt9

And here is an interesting discussion of the letter.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=45660

As I have read somewhere, communications said to have been dictated by runaways
were an important part of abolitionist PR.


HL

[Jane Margaret Laight]

On Saturday, April 21, 2012 10:25:16 AM UTC-4, Garrett wrote:
<snip>


Greetings folks--looks like I got here in time!

I've taken a look at the letter and have talked with some friends (including some past contributors to this site) and here's a consensus:

The letter is an actual letter, but it was written for Jourdon Anderson by his employer, a man named Valentine Winters, who was the president of the leading bank in Dayton, Ohio. There was a strong working relationship between the two, which may have grown into a friendship as the youngest Anderson child--who later practiced medicine in Dayton--was named Valentine Winters Anderson.

The jury is out as to whether Valentine Winters was an Abolitionist or not, but my genealogically minded friends tell me that Valentine's grandson's grandson is the contemporary comedian Jonathan Winters, so I can see where the humor in the letter comes in. I have no doubt that both of them--Anderson and Winters--had a real good time putting the letter together.

If you need confirmation of any of these facts, let me know.

JML
Delhi

[Wiregrass Willie]

I had never heard of this letter until I saw this thread. To me, it
seemed unlikely that a recent slave could have written it. Add to
that the fact my hobby is genealogy, I thought I could easily find
out. So I looked up the 1870, 1880 and 1900 Federal census.

Would it be worth the effort ? Oh, why not ? I'm retired :-)

Let me offer my results. According to all three censuses -- he
could not read or write. His wife could read but not write. So
much for that.

Could he have told his story to another person (Winters) -- and let
him write it ? Very possible. But one thing bothered me about that.
Old Master P. H. Anderson did not live in Big Springs Tn in 1860.
He lived in Tuckers Cross Roads Tn. (What is now Lebanon Tn) I'm
sure the former slave would have known that. I can't find him in
1870, but a man with $66,000 worth of real estate in 1860, isn't
likely to have moved by 1865. Especially with a war on.

Which brings us to more of P. H. Anderson. His story might be
interesting. As I said, he had $66,000 worth of real estate in
1860.

(My g-g-g-grandfather in GA in 1860 had $11,000 worth of property --
and he had over 1,000 acres)

Plus Anderson had $92,000 worth of personal property. According to
the slave schedules -- he only had 29 slaves. I say "only" because
that usually pretty much covered a man's "personal" property. But
even if he figured they were worth $1,500 each -- it would not add to
$92,000. And they weren't worth that because most of them (18) were
teenagers or children or 50 (2).

So Mr P.H. Anderson (Patrick Henry?) must have had other assets beside
slaves. Makes me wonder why he would have been begging a slave to
come back. Another thought about Master Anderson. He named his son
(born 1857) Edgar Poe. He must have been very fond of literature and
writing. (Maybe he wrote the letter :-)

I'd suggest some wandering abolitionist had met Jourdon in Ohio and
then made up a story to publish in the paper. Using the old Masters
name. I could be proven wrong if it turns out P. H. Anderson lived
in Big Spring in 1865.

Another thought. Why would the census enumerator write down
"Jourdon" when the guys name was obviously "Jordan" ? Because
certain Southerners pronounce it that way. I never could understand
why. As an example, I offer Hamilton Jordan (pronounced
"Jourdon" :-)

In my comments, I don't mean to put Jordan Anderson down in a
personal way. He obviously came a long way and I'm sure his
descendants can be very proud of him.

1870 census (Jordan is number 21)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NGM4hglOuhU/Tyixy9j2QeI/AAAAAAAABNo/xIJ6V7mfc-I/s1600/Jordan+Anderson.jpg

1880 census (Jordan is number 16)

http://archive.org/stream/10thcensus1051unit#page/n719/mode/1up

1900 census (Jourdon is the 14th name)

http://archive.org/stream/12thcensusofpopu1307unit#page/n502/mode/1up

PH Anderson in 1860

www.goo.gl/PYU6p

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Eu84lKQfza0/Tyix03238II/AAAAAAAABN0/4ZIo2flveAQ/s1600/P.H.+Anderson+census.jpg

[Hugh Lawson]

Garrett <2x...@none.com> writes:

> Can this slave have been this fluent ? I figure it must have been a
> phoney by somebody trying to make the South look bad.
>
> Former slave's letter to his 'old master' surfaces again
>
> Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/318800#ixzz1sgSZGUBg

The text of the letter in the New York Daily Tribune (reprinted in the
url above) declares that the text was "dictated". If I had only read
the url "Garret" posted, I would have noticed this. That is what I
should have done before commenting on it.

Oh well, I make mistakes, and as a teacher I made mistakes before
audiences for many years, just as musicians and athletes do. ;-)

[Hugh Lawson]

Wiregrass Willie <wiregrass_...@yahoo.com> writes:

[ snip ]

Jordan pronounced Jerdan:

One of my schoolmates whose given name was Jordan pronounced it
"Jerdan". In a little googling I found numerous discussions of how to
pronounce Jordan-Hare stadium; evidently Shug Jordan's family also
pronounced it "Jerdan". Clarence Jordan Nelson pronounced his middle
name "Jerdan", as I have read. This is common in Georgia, though
perhaps not universal.

Jourdan is a French name--recall the screen actor Louis Jourdan. The
River Jordan is spelled that way, in French. Maybe Jourdan Anderson
pronounced his name Jerdan.


Big Real Estate owners:

Acc. Gavin Wright, the ante-bellum slaveowners were highly mobile. He
uses the theme "the change from slavelords to landlords" to suggest how
the former slavelords (highly mobile) settled down to more stationary
existence as landlords.

HL

[Wiregrass Willie]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:56:43 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Like you, I would have spelled the pronunciation as "Jerdan". But
I was wondering if a stranger -- hearing the pronunciation -- might
not think of it as "Jour" as in journey -- plus "don".

>One of my schoolmates whose given name was Jordan pronounced it
>"Jerdan". In a little googling I found numerous discussions of how to
>pronounce Jordan-Hare stadium; evidently Shug Jordan's family also
>pronounced it "Jerdan". Clarence Jordan Nelson pronounced his middle
>name "Jerdan", as I have read. This is common in Georgia, though
>perhaps not universal.

I have relatives who think "Jerdan" is proper for the sur-name
Jordan. But those same people will pronounce the Biblical river
Jordan correctly. I have never understood it. But there are a
lot of Jordans in South GA.

>Jourdan is a French name--recall the screen actor Louis Jourdan. The
>River Jordan is spelled that way, in French. Maybe Jourdan Anderson
>pronounced his name Jerdan.

Probably so.

>Big Real Estate owners:
>
>Acc. Gavin Wright, the ante-bellum slaveowners were highly mobile. He
>uses the theme "the change from slavelords to landlords" to suggest how
>the former slavelords (highly mobile) settled down to more stationary
>existence as landlords.

You are right. It could have been that Anderson had more than one
plantation. I ran across one mention of the internet that he was
listed as a "merchant". That might explain so much real estate.
Maybe some was commercial buildings. Which is something we don't
usually associate with planters. I don't know why, but I think
this could be an interesting story. It appears that Jordan was 35
and Patrick H. was 37. They may have been raised together.

[Wiregrass Willie]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:21:57 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
wrote:

It does say "dictate" but do you even believe that ? I don't. How
can an illiterate "dictate" a letter that sounds like it was written
by a Harvard graduate. (which it probably was).

Could Jordan have said something like -- "Us hates dee ol' bastard".
And Mr Abolitionist took it from there. ? I would suppose so.
Could it be old Jourdon never heard of any letter ? I suppose so.

BTW, did you ever wonder how a man in Tennessee could locate an
ex-slave (with a new name) 300 miles (and three states away) -- a few
days after the Civil War ended ? You reckon they published street
directories for all the several million freed slaves ?

If you google "Jourdon Anderson" you will get about 18,000 hits. Most
of the people reading those do not notice the "dictate", nor it's
implications. Most of them seem to think Ol' Jourdon sat down
with his Bic in hand and wrote it all. Read some comments of people
who did read it.

What's the old saying ? "A lie is halfway round the world before
the truth has got its boots on".

When white people do this -- it's called racist, demagogic propaganda.
When "others" do it, it's called an "historic document".

[Hugh Lawson]

Wiregrass Willie <wiregrass_...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 17:21:57 -0400, Hugh Lawson <hu.l...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Garrett <2x...@none.com> writes:
>>
>>> Can this slave have been this fluent ? I figure it must have been a
>>> phoney by somebody trying to make the South look bad.
>>>
>>> Former slave's letter to his 'old master' surfaces again
>>>
>>> Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/318800#ixzz1sgSZGUBg
>>
>>The text of the letter in the New York Daily Tribune (reprinted in the
>>url above) declares that the text was "dictated". If I had only read
>>the url "Garret" posted, I would have noticed this. That is what I
>>should have done before commenting on it.
>>
>>Oh well, I make mistakes, and as a teacher I made mistakes before
>>audiences for many years, just as musicians and athletes do. ;-)
>
> It does say "dictate" but do you even believe that ? I don't. How
> can an illiterate "dictate" a letter that sounds like it was written
> by a Harvard graduate. (which it probably was).

Let me be an old history teacher and make some comments.

Probabilities arouse suspicion, but this case requires
an investigation on the particulars.

Written documents are works of art. They are produced by conscious
intentional effort for a purpose. Always. What were the artistic
standards in the 19th century for putting in writing, for a literate
audience, the statements of an unlettered man? Of an unlettered black
man, an ex-slave? I do not know. Same question for the artistic
standards in the abolition movement, for their propaganda? I don't know
that either.

Do you see the relevance here? A document needs to be examined in terms
its how it came into being (provenance), and in relation to the kind of
document it is (genre).

We can't let our critical standards lapse because the document is
attributed to a slave, an ex-slave, or a woman, etc. etc..

> BTW, did you ever wonder how a man in Tennessee could locate an
> ex-slave (with a new name) 300 miles (and three states away) -- a few
> days after the Civil War ended ? You reckon they published street
> directories for all the several million freed slaves ?

Good question. I just don't know.

> If you google "Jourdon Anderson" you will get about 18,000 hits. Most
> of the people reading those do not notice the "dictate", nor it's
> implications. Most of them seem to think Ol' Jourdon sat down
> with his Bic in hand and wrote it all. Read some comments of people
> who did read it.

I have read some if it. One of my amusements is to read northerners'
comments about "the South". Many non-southerners IMO feel good about
themselves when they see the white south denounced. Somehow IMO they
feel that denouncing the south a long time ago also denounces the south
today. But if you note that they do this, they often have pre-prepared
defenses, something like "the South makes us do that." ;-)

[scott s.]

I have a book, "Free At Last a documentary history of slavery,
freedom, and the civil war" that mainly consists of writings including
from slaves/freedmen with editorial comments by Ira Berlin. I think
Berlin and his students at U Md College Park were some of the foremost
historians of American slave experience. I would say the overall thrust
of the book is to show slaves were not helpless bystanders waiting for
abolishionists / father Abraham to save them, but rather active
participants. My reading of it is they were like anyone else: some
made things happen, some watched things happen, and some wondered
what happened.

scott s.
.

[Scamp]

Slavery was so bad...

The vast majority of slaves stayed on the same farm or plantation after the war was over.

The Northern States certainly did not welcome the newly freed slaves.