How do LD->DVD recorder transfers look with latest upconvert players?
Scott
I got a DVD recorder three-ish years ago to start transferring my LD
collection and promptly lost all motivation to do so. When I played
the few LD transfers I made onto DVD via the S-video or component outs
of this player (the only options at the time - no HDMI) the picture
was pretty underwhelming back then on my 27" trinitron, and especially
on my 42 inch Toshiba HDTV from 2008.
I was home for Christmas and saw my family's big pile of Laserdiscs,
including some rare ones not on DVD yet, and it made me wonder whether
with all the latest 1080 upconverting chips in new DVD and Blue-ray
players if going from an LD player into a DVD recorder (several years
old) and then played back on a recent model upconverting player
drastically improves the picture? I have seen what they do to regular
DVDs, but lets face it LD to DVD transfers arent regular DVDs..
In short I am trying to figure out whether this path (including an
upconverting player) would re-motivate me to finish my transfer
project..
Any insights from folks who have done some LD-> DVD transfers and
looked at them on new upconverting players?
thanks, scott
unclejr
I have done *many* LD to DVD transfers. I don't use a stand-alone
DVDR recorder, though. I use iMovie to capture (DV-25 codec),
QuickTime Pro to encode to MPEG2, A.Pack to encode to AC-3, and DVD
Studio Pro to author.
I always check my transfers with my Oppo DV-970HD upconverting DVD
player, and they all look fine as long as my disc bitrate is 6+ kbps.
If I have to sacrifice quality anywhere, I do so with audio stream
bitrate, not the video stream bitrate.
-Junior
Steve Fenwick
<15107f83-abcd-4b00...@h10g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
unclejr <wat...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
> I have done *many* LD to DVD transfers. I don't use a stand-alone
> DVDR recorder, though. I use iMovie to capture (DV-25 codec),
> QuickTime Pro to encode to MPEG2, A.Pack to encode to AC-3, and DVD
> Studio Pro to author.
>
> I always check my transfers with my Oppo DV-970HD upconverting DVD
> player, and they all look fine as long as my disc bitrate is 6+ kbps.
> If I have to sacrifice quality anywhere, I do so with audio stream
> bitrate, not the video stream bitrate.
>
> -Junior
What hardware are you using for the capture?
Steve
--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
unclejr
> In article
> <15107f83-abcd-4b00-9ae2-51c246ed4...@h10g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> unclejr <wats...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
> > I have done *many* LD to DVD transfers. I don't use a stand-alone
> > DVDR recorder, though. I use iMovie to capture (DV-25 codec),
> > QuickTime Pro to encode to MPEG2, A.Pack to encode to AC-3, and DVD
> > Studio Pro to author.
>
> > I always check my transfers with my Oppo DV-970HD upconverting DVD
> > player, and they all look fine as long as my disc bitrate is 6+ kbps.
> > If I have to sacrifice quality anywhere, I do so with audio stream
> > bitrate, not the video stream bitrate.
>
>
Pioneer LD-S2 (composite output) --> Camelot Technologies Crystal
Vision VPS-1 external comb filter (s-video output) --> Dazzle
Hollywood DV-Bridge (firewire output) --> iMac.
-Junior
Steve Fenwick
<ca750626-c758-4e66...@m11g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
unclejr <wat...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
The Dazzle bridge is working okay for you? I tried one right after they
came out and had nothing but trouble.
Scott
> In article
Dont want to complain too much here, but noone has really mentioned
what I asked about - i.e., do the current upconverting players make
what is originally an LD source look watchable on an HDTV? The first
few transfers I did, when I watched them on my new TV last year were
pretty underwhelming - it made me stop doing the transfers.
I obviously realized pure DVD and Blueray/etc are going to look
better...
thanks,
scott
ps I have a dazzle bridge/imac/etc also but dont want to mess with all
of that work just to transfer an LD (and besides I dont have AC-3 out
or an RF demod on my LD player)..
unclejr
> In article
>
>
>
>
>
> unclejr <wats...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 11:24 am, Steve Fenwick <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <15107f83-abcd-4b00-9ae2-51c246ed4...@h10g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > unclejr <wats...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
> > > > I have done *many* LD to DVD transfers. I don't use a stand-alone
> > > > DVDR recorder, though. I use iMovie to capture (DV-25 codec),
> > > > QuickTime Pro to encode to MPEG2, A.Pack to encode to AC-3, and DVD
> > > > Studio Pro to author.
>
> > > > I always check my transfers with my Oppo DV-970HD upconverting DVD
> > > > player, and they all look fine as long as my disc bitrate is 6+ kbps.
> > > > If I have to sacrifice quality anywhere, I do so with audio stream
> > > > bitrate, not the video stream bitrate.
>
> > > What hardware are you using for the capture?
>
> > Pioneer LD-S2 (composite output) --> Camelot Technologies Crystal
> > Vision VPS-1 external comb filter (s-video output) --> Dazzle
> > Hollywood DV-Bridge (firewire output) --> iMac.
>
> came out and had nothing but trouble.
Yes, it works fine for me, as long as the firewire output cable is
grounded to the AC adapter with a thin wire so as not to skip frames.
I don't know where I read about this little modification, but it
works.
If I was to buy a capture card these days, I would go with the Canopus
ADVC100.
-Junior
unclejr
> Dont want to complain too much here, but noone has really mentioned
> what I asked about - i.e., do the current upconverting players make
> what is originally an LD source look watchable on an HDTV? The first
> few transfers I did, when I watched them on my new TV last year were
> pretty underwhelming - it made me stop doing the transfers.
I don't know much about DVDR recorders, since I don't have/use one.
What I did say about using iMovie was, "I always check my transfers
with my Oppo DV-970HD upconverting DVD player, and they all look fine
as long as my disc bitrate is 6+ kbps. If I have to sacrifice quality
anywhere, I do so with audio stream bitrate, not the video stream
bitrate."
That's I could say then, and that's all I can say now.
> I obviously realized pure DVD and Blueray/etc are going to look
> better...
Unless I can have the bitrate at 9+ kbps on a *very* well-mastered LD,
this is true.
> ps I have a dazzle bridge/imac/etc also but dont want to mess with all
> of that work just to transfer an LD (and besides I dont have AC-3 out
> or an RF demod on my LD player)..
It's really not much of a bother. Not much more than using a
recorder, really.
-Junior
Scott
THanks. You did reflect on that part first time. If you look at the
same DVD on a non-upconverting player is it a night and day difference
(on same TV)? I am just worried that starting with a composite video
out, etc, is going to lead to something that will still be inferior no
matter how I think about it.. Also note I dont have the crystal s-vid
comb filter..
sincerely,
scott
shower_urinator
I've found that with a DVD recorder, you can only record 1 hour per
DVD at the best resolution and if you drop down to the next best
resolution to allow 2.5 hours per DVD, the picture quality is
significantly degraded. I suspect you are trying to fit a whole movie
on one DVD and that is the issue. You'll have to use multiple DVDs
per movie if you go with a set top DVD recorder but the quality should
as good a the laserdisc.
Depending on the model of TV you have, the TV could do as good or
better job of upscaling SD content as your DVD player. I just watch
the laseriscs directly on my TV, Vizo VP504f with cld-d704 player,
which does a great job of upscaling standard def.
It's alot of work copying the laserdisc movies on a set top DVD
recorder and then you have to change out multiple DVDs to watch them
unless you have a DVD changer. It's probably only worthwhile to copy
for rare laserdiscs that are still worth money.
unclejr
> THanks. You did reflect on that part first time. If you look at the
> same DVD on a non-upconverting player is it a night and day difference
> (on same TV)?
Night and day? No. However, I have a direct-view CRT HDTV which
handles analog SD reasonably well. It probably would make a bigger
"night and day difference" on an LCD HDTV, which does a relatively
poor job with analog SD sources.
> I am just worried that starting with a composite video
> out, etc, is going to lead to something that will still be inferior no
> matter how I think about it..
Why worry? You can make an LD to DVD conversion look nearly as good
as the LD with a little patience and time. Practice makes perfect.
After you master the art, you will then need to try: 1. transfering
letterboxed LDs to anamorphic widescreen DVDs; and 2. capturing Dolby
Digital 5.1 (AC-3) audio!
> Also note I dont have the crystal s-vid
> comb filter..
You can get the Kramer FC-10D pretty cheaply and have similar results
as the Crystal Vision VPS-1:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120511158765
-Junior
Steve Fenwick
<894633b3-c01e-4195...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
unclejr <wat...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
I was thinking of the Blackmagic unit:
<http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/videorecorder/>
Kev Haw
Panasonic dvd recorder to copy movies I liked. I have a few hundred
laserdiscs copied to dvd-r's.
I almost always just used the SP speed, which allowed 2 hours per
disc. I found the results to be fine, but I was viewing these on a 27"
CRT Proscan tv set.
Only for a few movies did I bother to record at the best speed, which
allowed 1 hour per disc.
I'm wondering if there's much difference between brands of dvd
recorders which would cause variations in results?
I've always felt that Panasonic made the best dvd recorder.
Kevin
Scott
Kevin - have you relooked at any of these LD-burned DVDs on a newer TV
with an upconverting DVD player?
unclejr
> <http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/videorecorder/>
Interesting. It looks like it comes with its own software. I wonder
if editing captured video with that software package is as easy as it
is with iMovie...
-Junior
Bruce Esquibel
> In short I am trying to figure out whether this path (including an
> upconverting player) would re-motivate me to finish my transfer
> project..
> Any insights from folks who have done some LD-> DVD transfers and
> looked at them on new upconverting players?
I haven't done any LD to DVD but a couple years ago I did around 1300 vhs
tapes, some going back 20 or more years. I didn't like using those outboard
processors some have mentioned (too many steps for the whole process) and
ended up using a Panasonic DMR-EH75V.
Those aren't made anymore but were the vhs to hard drive to dvd units in one
package. Recording on the XP mode (hard drive record speed) made what I
called excellent copies in the end.
The reason I'm mentioning this is, depending on your finances, you might
want to consider this idea...
Although copying/recording to dvd is a good idea today, consider the life
span of vhs, it's basically extinct today. Although I don't see dvd ending
anytime soon, it's possible, besides blue-ray, streaming video and dvr's are
definetly making a dent in sales of the format across the board.
What I'm suggesting, if you can afford it and how many you have to do (or
want to do), consider transfering them dv mode to a hard drive and just
leave them be.
Most mass market places have 1TB hard drives for under $100 (some have 1.5TB
ones for like $10 more). Figure in dv format, it's 13GB an hour so nearly
100 hours can fit on a 1.5TB model, better than 50 movies likely.
The point is, dv is about the best quality you can get, moving them to dvd
today might not be the best idea. Once on dvd, they are compressed and it's
the end of the road to do anything better.
Leaving them in dv format leaves the option open to do something later.
I'm just saying to dump them to the hd's then stick the hd's in storage. You
can always tap a copy off to dvd if you want to watch one of them but at
least this way you aren't closing any doors in the future.
One thing to consider that may be a problem I didn't have with the vhs dump
is the audio tracks. Not sure how you can handle ones with commentary tracks
and even those with AC3/5.1 soundtracks being one of the two analog tracks
gave up their life for it.
Most of those outboard video converters will stream out dv format, or raw
and I'm just saying to consider storing that for an end product for the time
being. Hard disk space is cheap these days, even if you go with usb
externals. They are just slow as shit compared to internal sata's.
-bruce
b...@ripco.com
c4urs...@spam_yahoo.com
> Scott <matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What I'm suggesting, if you can afford it and how many you have to do (or
> want to do), consider transfering them dv mode to a hard drive and just
> leave them be.
>
> ... Once on dvd, they are compressed and it's
> the end of the road to do anything better.
>
> Leaving them in dv format leaves the option open to do something later.
I feel this is about the best suggestion in this thread.
Moreover, writeable media are not stable.
Interesting to find out what remains of such transfers after [years].
Scott
guys - these are all great suggestions. as I have a dazzle bridge I
can dump to DV if needed.
I guess what I need to do is do a "side by side" with one of my
already burned LD-DVDs with my current regular DVD player and a
friend's upconverting player. To some extent I think this will give
me a better idea of my core concern about bothering to do this in the
first place. If the LD sources still look crappy on the upconverting
player with a current HDTV I am suspecting the DV wont excite me
either (I can look at that in fullscreen to my TV also via DVI). I am
not as crazed videophile like I used to be and I am really just
trying to figure out whether I'll be sufficiently happy or not. It
will save me alot of time screwing with any burning if I still dont
like it.
COMPLETELY SEPARATE SIDE QUESTION:
Not sure of the ethic/legality of this but will ask anyway. Some of
the LDs I have I am sure others have already transferred. I'd be
pleased to send photos of me holding the LDs as "proof" .. Would
anyone be willing to trade already transferred DVDs of the same LDs?
I dont want any other than those I already own on LD.. Not looking to
trade anything other than what I have fair use rights for.
And if this is a taboo request, please say so - not trying to get
anyone in trouble, just being lazy!
Thanks again for all the good replies. I should have done this 3
years ago when I first got my DVD recorder to do this..
Steve Fenwick
<d2549e69-a0df-41a7...@g18g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
unclejr <wat...@kenyon.edu> wrote:
There was a mention somewhere (support forum, maybe) that their SW is
not as good as iMovie, and going to iMovie requires a second format
conversion. The notion of grounding the Firewire cable leaves me
cold--bad HW design, needing that.
unclejr
> not as good as iMovie, and going to iMovie requires a second format
> conversion.
If video can be edited easily with that software and exported easily
to an MPEG-2 DVD-compliant video file, I don't see the reason to
convert the video to the iMovie DV codec at all.
> The notion of grounding the Firewire cable leaves me
> cold--bad HW design, needing that.
Yup. However, just a thin wire fixed the problems that I had with it,
so it's no big deal to me now. Again, if I had to choose now, I would
go with the ADVC100.
-Junior
unclejr
> COMPLETELY SEPARATE SIDE QUESTION:
>
> Not sure of the ethic/legality of this but will ask anyway. Some of
> the LDs I have I am sure others have already transferred. I'd be
> pleased to send photos of me holding the LDs as "proof" .. Would
> anyone be willing to trade already transferred DVDs of the same LDs?
> I dont want any other than those I already own on LD.. Not looking to
> trade anything other than what I have fair use rights for.
>
> And if this is a taboo request, please say so - not trying to get
> anyone in trouble, just being lazy!
It's not taboo if you already own the original LD.
I remember when capturing LD audio (AC-3/DD5.1) and video (DV,
Huffyuv, etc.) for various DVD projects was a big part of this
newsgroup.
-Junior
unclejr
> The notion of grounding the Firewire cable leaves me
> cold--bad HW design, needing that.
Again, yup. This must be where I read of the problem:
http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/dazzle-hollywood-dv-grounding-fix-t366726.html
-Junior
Thad Floryan
>>>> [...]
>>>> If I was to buy a capture card these days, I would go with the Canopus
>>>> ADVC100.
>>> I was thinking of the Blackmagic unit:
>>> <http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/videorecorder/>
>> Interesting. It looks like it comes with its own software. I wonder
>> if editing captured video with that software package is as easy as it
>> is with iMovie...
>>
>> -Junior
>
> There was a mention somewhere (support forum, maybe) that their SW is
> not as good as iMovie, and going to iMovie requires a second format
> conversion. The notion of grounding the Firewire cable leaves me
> cold--bad HW design, needing that.
Since it seems to not be obvious, Canopus has a range of products and
the ADVC-100 was replaced by the ADVC-110 in 2004.
FWIW, Canopus itself seems to be either belly-up or it was acquired
by Grass Valley (Thompson), <http://www.grassvalley.com/desktop>,
which is the redirected URL from <http://www.canopus.com>
Steve Fenwick
Thad Floryan <th...@thadlabs.com> wrote:
I saw that. GVG has some serious chops behind it; if any of that rubbed
off on the ADVC55/110/300 series, that's a good thing.
I may still go with the Blackmagic unit, to take the best output of the
Faroudja NRS I picked up recently.
unclejr
> Since it seems to not be obvious, Canopus has a range of products and
> the ADVC-100 was replaced by the ADVC-110 in 2004.
IIRC, the ADVC-100 ignored macrovision protection, whereas the
ADVC-110 did not. That's why the ADVC-100 is in higher demand IMO.
Also, my Dazzle Hollywood DV-Bride ignores macrovision.
-Junior
unclejr
> I may still go with the Blackmagic unit, to take the best output of the
> Faroudja NRS I picked up recently.
The Faroudja NRS has a *very* nice 3D comb filter. I own one (set to
720p), too!
-Junior
Thad Floryan
I have the PDF manuals for both the 100 and 110 (per a Google search)
and they both say only this about Macrovision:
100, page 10:
When Macrovision signals are detected by
the ADVC-100:
-- The brightness and contrast for both
analog and DV output are lowered.
-- The Status light blinks
110, page 17:
When Macrovision signals are detected by the ADVC110:
-- The brightness and contrast for both analog and DV output are
lowered.
-- The Status light blinks
Since this thread began about LD -> DVD (see "Subject:"), the evils
of VHS and Macrovision seem moot.
:-)
Kev Haw
newer TV with an upconverting DVD player?"
Last night I watched the widescreen version of The World, The Flesh and
The Devil.
My monitor is the Pioneer Elite Pro-101FD. I watched it in various
modes. Widescreen 2, Full 2 and Dot by Dot.
It looked perfectly fine to me, especially when watched in Full 2,
which slightly minimized the black bars all around the picture.
I didn't notice much in the way of artifacts and the picture certainly
didn't look as bad as watching a laserdisc DIRECTLY on the set via my
DVL 909 or Elite 95. With those laserdisc players, obviously, the only
hookup is composite as the monitor has no s-video input.
I used my Toshiba HD A3 HD DVD player to view the dvd-r of The World.
That player is hooked to the monitor via HDMI.
To sum up, I'd say watching an upconverted dvd-r copy of a laserdisc
may very well be better than watching the laserdisc DIRECTLY on a
high-end monitor, such as the Elite Signature Series plasma tv.
Kevin