Nice basics-- So, to spare me asking some underpaid Best Buy employee, and go straight for the niche geeks with my questions:
I have neither the funding nor inclination to get satellite or digital cable (Netflix people don't *do* on-demand PPV), pretty much just want to invest in a large-screen for future post-'09 compatibility, use it chiefly as a monitor for whatever (coughbluafteroctober) hi-def disk player I end up buying the same year, and maybe tune in on whatever over-air HD programming wanders by...Oh, and small apartment, so it's only going to be 40" LCD, if that, tops.
--SO-- Question: If I see a letterboxed PBS documentary with that fancy "This show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro, or I see Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien on a big cavernous widescreen studio on NBC--both over normal basic-cable--*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd be watching those as nature intended? (And that's assuming the cable connection is direct, and not through my old component-VCR.)
Derek Janssen (sometimes you have to roll up your jeans and wade in the geek pool knee deep) :) eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote: > By way of Yahoo News, Audioholics published a For-Dummies guide column > on where that over-air/cable HD programming is really coming from and > whether you're getting it, for beginners: > http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/are-you-sure-youre-watc...
Good article. I especially liked the not-so-subtle bash against the HD DVD formats...
> Nice basics-- > So, to spare me asking some underpaid Best Buy employee, and go straight > for the niche geeks with my questions: > I have neither the funding nor inclination to get satellite or digital > cable (Netflix people don't *do* on-demand PPV), pretty much just want > to invest in a large-screen for future post-'09 compatibility, use it > chiefly as a monitor for whatever (coughbluafteroctober) hi-def disk > player I end up buying the same year, and maybe tune in on whatever > over-air HD programming wanders by...Oh, and small apartment, so it's > only going to be 40" LCD, if that, tops.
Ok.
> --SO-- > Question: If I see a letterboxed PBS documentary with that fancy "This > show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro, or I see Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien on a > big cavernous widescreen studio on NBC--both over normal > basic-cable--*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd > be watching those as nature intended? > (And that's assuming the cable connection is direct, and not through my > old component-VCR.)
To watch HD, you have to be watching a HD channel. To my pleasant surprise, my TV actually has built-in tuners to get unencrypted HD channels through my plain old cable (CBS, FOX, etc.) On my TV, these channels show up decimals. So, "2" is Fox, "2.1" is Fox in HD.
I'm not sure how it works for standard OTA antennas. We bought Grandma a new TV for Christmas, and it also did HD, though Grandma only cares about Oprah and her soaps. Her TV had separate inputs for HD and non-HD antennas. I figure in '09 or so, we'll simply move the antenna connection from the non-HD port to the HD one, and that should be it.
Also, be sure you know where your HD channels are being broadcast from. For me, most of the HD channels are broadcast from San Francisco, even though I live in Sunnyvale, about 45 miles SSE of there. I'd have to get a pretty powerful, directional antenna - definitely not something that would fit on top of the TV/entertainment unit, and definitely not something I felt like spending that much money for.
If you have cable already, and your TV has a QAM tuner built into it (or you can buy one separately), you may get the over-air HD channels your cable provider carries without having to do anything more than simply telling your TV to auto-program itself. (I believe this is a legal requirement - not sure.)
<eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote: > If I see a letterboxed PBS documentary with that fancy "This >show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro, or I see Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien on a >big cavernous widescreen studio on NBC--both over normal >basic-cable--*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd >be watching those as nature intended? >(And that's assuming the cable connection is direct, and not through my >old component-VCR.)
No. Cable cos fuck with their feeds ALL the time. So you'll never know if they did or did not on any given program unless you call and ask someone that actually knows, not the twit answering the phone.
Broadcast (over the air) PBS is always full resolution, least lossy feed. From my area, all over the air feeds were the least lossy, and all the cable co's "HD" feeds were typically fucked with.
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:31:54 -0400, Derek Janssen wrote: > pretty much just want to invest in a large-screen for future > post-'09 compatibility.... it's only going to be 40" LCD, > if that, tops.
Be sure to check the display's resolution. If you want to "future proof" yourself, you'll want to get a 1080p display, not the cheaper and currently more common 720p displays.
> If I see ...that fancy "This show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro.. > ..*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd > be watching those as nature intended?
You don't want an "HD ready" set, you'll want one with a digital tuner built in. All new models sold in the US are mandated by the FCC now to include an ATSC tuner, which is the new OTA broadcast standard, so this shouldn't be hard to find. Some may include a QAM tuner as well for digital cable broadcast, but that's not something you're interested in.
You'll have to make sure you're watching via the digital tuner, since most TVs still include a tuner for the old NTSC standard as well. You may have to switch tuners manually, or the set may combine both analog and digital channels to select from.
> (And that's assuming the cable connection is direct, and not through my > old component-VCR.)
I don't see how having the antenna cable daisy-chained through your VCR should affect the tuners, provided you don't have the VCR's RF modulator engaged (the "TV/VCR" button).
>>pretty much just want to invest in a large-screen for future >>post-'09 compatibility.... it's only going to be 40" LCD, >>if that, tops.
> Be sure to check the display's resolution. If you want to "future proof" > yourself, you'll want to get a 1080p display, not the cheaper and currently > more common 720p displays.
Is that going to be a compatability problem down the road?--
Particularly as A) I've already mentioned the 40" max (and there aren't as many 1080p's below that, as that's cramming a bit too much into one screen), and B) there's recently been some question as to whether the human eye can actually *distinguish* 1080p apart from 780p. They're still not sure.
>>If I see ...that fancy "This show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro.. >>..*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd >>be watching those as nature intended?
> You don't want an "HD ready" set, you'll want one with a digital tuner > built in. All new models sold in the US are mandated by the FCC now to > include an ATSC tuner, which is the new OTA broadcast standard, so this > shouldn't be hard to find. Some may include a QAM tuner as well for > digital cable broadcast, but that's not something you're interested in.
Our local system has the local network-HD channels up in the digital-cable stratosphere along with the Discovery Channels and HBO, so they may have me over a barrel there...I'll leave that open.
>> Be sure to check the display's resolution. If you want to "future >> proof" yourself, you'll want to get a 1080p display, not the cheaper >> and currently more common 720p displays.
> Is that going to be a compatability problem down the road?--
> Particularly as > A) I've already mentioned the 40" max (and there aren't as many > 1080p's below that, as that's cramming a bit too much into one > screen), and
It's not impossible to find, by any means. I have a 37" LCD set from Mitsubishi that's 1080p. I remember looking at models from Sony, Samsung, Phillips, and Sharp which also did 1080p at under 40".
>>>Be sure to check the display's resolution. If you want to "future >>>proof" yourself, you'll want to get a 1080p display, not the cheaper >>>and currently more common 720p displays.
>>Is that going to be a compatability problem down the road?--
>>Particularly as >>A) I've already mentioned the 40" max (and there aren't as many >>1080p's below that, as that's cramming a bit too much into one >>screen), and
> It's not impossible to find, by any means. I have a 37" LCD set > from Mitsubishi that's 1080p. I remember looking at models from > Sony, Samsung, Phillips, and Sharp which also did 1080p at under > 40".
I've seen them, and they're a jump up in price, which isn't an issue this far off-- Thing is, although 60"+ screens need the high amount of resolution, there's a point at which getting a "small" bigscreen with 1080 becomes like getting an iPod with 1080: How much difference is it going to MAKE?? ;)
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:05:11 -0400, Derek Janssen wrote: > Jay G. wrote:
>> Be sure to check the display's resolution. If you want to "future proof" >> yourself, you'll want to get a 1080p display, not the cheaper and currently >> more common 720p displays.
> Is that going to be a compatability problem down the road?--
Not a compatibility issue *per se*, since 720p HDTVs are capable of receiving at least 1080i signals from the tuner, component, or digital input and downconvert to it to the TV's native resolution. You just won't be getting the fullest possible HD, so you'll likely want to upgrade a 720p set faster than you would a 1080p set.
> Particularly as > A) I've already mentioned the 40" max (and there aren't as many 1080p's > below that, as that's cramming a bit too much into one screen),
TVs exist that are below 40" and are 1080p. Hell, there's HD projectors that cram 1080p resolution onto an even smaller screen.
> B) there's recently been some question as to whether the human eye can > actually *distinguish* 1080p apart from 780p. They're still not sure.
People can distinguish between anamorphic and non-anamorphic DVDs, and that's only a 20% increase in resolution. 1080p is *twice* the resolution than 720p, so it's definitely noticeable.
The important thing to notice the difference is to be close enough to see it. This site can calculate how close you need to be to get the full benefit of 1080 resolution.
>> Some may include a QAM tuner as well for >> digital cable broadcast, but that's not something you're interested in.
> Our local system has the local network-HD channels up in the > digital-cable stratosphere along with the Discovery Channels and HBO, so > they may have me over a barrel there...I'll leave that open.
Locals typically look better OTA than over digital cable, provided you get good reception. As for the others, you can always get a cable tuner later on. Time Warner provides an HD DVR for no more cost than a regular digital tuner.
>> It's not impossible to find, by any means. I have a 37" LCD set >> from Mitsubishi that's 1080p. I remember looking at models from >> Sony, Samsung, Phillips, and Sharp which also did 1080p at under >> 40".
> I've seen them, and they're a jump up in price, which isn't an issue > this far off-- > Thing is, although 60"+ screens need the high amount of resolution, > there's a point at which getting a "small" bigscreen with 1080 becomes > like getting an iPod with 1080: How much difference is it going to > MAKE?? ;)
On Jun 1, 1:31 pm, Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
> --SO-- > Question: If I see a letterboxed PBS documentary with that fancy "This > show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro, or I see Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien on a > big cavernous widescreen studio on NBC--both over normal > basic-cable--*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd > be watching those as nature intended?
Rule #1 - Don't assume anything. :^)
I have an HDTV and an HD DVR box. The DVR is connected to my Comcast cable as well as an antenna. When I tell it to look for channels it scans both the antenna and the cable.
It turns out that Comcast is feeding HD channels even over basic cable. For example:
My local PBS channel is 10. The HD PBS channel is 10.1 and then there's a special PBS "Create" channel on 10.2. They also just added some kind of local government channel on 10.3.
If you're watching a show on channel 10 then it's NOT HD. Even if it says "available in HD", all that means is that if you want to watch it in HD you have to flip over to 10.1 to see it in HD.
The same goes for network programming. Again, locally for me NBC is on channel 8. The HD feed is on 8.1. 8.2 is an all local weather channel from that same station. Conan O'Brian in SD? - Channel 8. Conan O'Brian in HD? - Channel 8.1. Letterman in SD? Channel 6. Letterman in HD? Channel 6.1.
Most HD televisions have an "info" button to tell you what resolution the channel you're watching is being fed in. If it says 480i or 480p then you aren't in HD land.
Jordan wrote: > On Jun 1, 1:31 pm, Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>>--SO-- >>Question: If I see a letterboxed PBS documentary with that fancy "This >>show is filmed in Hi-Def" intro, or I see Jay Leno or Conan O'Brien on a >>big cavernous widescreen studio on NBC--both over normal >>basic-cable--*and* I have a tuner-ready set kicked in, may I assume I'd >>be watching those as nature intended?
> Rule #1 - Don't assume anything. :^)
> I have an HDTV and an HD DVR box. The DVR is connected to my Comcast > cable as well as an antenna. When I tell it to look for channels it > scans both the antenna and the cable.
> It turns out that Comcast is feeding HD channels even over basic > cable. For example:
(Comcast, that's what we've got in our area-- And just *try* fighting off their efforts to sell you the digital on-demand package, so no help asking them about basic-HD.)
> My local PBS channel is 10. The HD PBS channel is 10.1 and then > there's a special PBS "Create" channel on 10.2. They also just added > some kind of local government channel on 10.3. > Most HD televisions have an "info" button to tell you what resolution > the channel you're watching is being fed in. If it says 480i or 480p > then you aren't in HD land.
Which (hopefully built-in) tuner would I be looking for WITHOUT the HD-DVR box? Up till now, I've always fed my standard-cable signals in through the cable-ready VCR (which's why I've never gone for standard-DVR either), as I like to skip the monthly box shakedown.
Derek Janssen (and if it seems like I'm stretching this out, remember, one more on-topic post is one less by You-Know-Which-Jerk) eja...@comcast.net
On Jun 3, 11:08 am, Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
> Which (hopefully built-in) tuner would I be looking for WITHOUT the > HD-DVR box?
If your TV has a built in ATSC tuner then that's where you're going to find your HD channels. My set didn't come with a built in tuner which is why I use the DVR. Prior to the DVR I had an ATSC tuner/ upconverting DVD player combo unit. What make an model TV do you have?
> Up till now, I've always fed my standard-cable signals in through the > cable-ready VCR (which's why I've never gone for standard-DVR either), > as I like to skip the monthly box shakedown.
I can virtually guarantee that the VCR doesn't have an ATSC tuner in it so it is not going to detect or tune HD channels.
>>Which (hopefully built-in) tuner would I be looking for WITHOUT the >>HD-DVR box?
> If your TV has a built in ATSC tuner then that's where you're going to > find your HD channels. My set didn't come with a built in tuner which > is why I use the DVR. Prior to the DVR I had an ATSC tuner/ > upconverting DVD player combo unit. What make an model TV do you have?
As for HD, none yet. As for standard, one of the new digital "flat tube" Toshibas (not flatscreen or WS), with YCbCr capability from approx. two or three years ago. (Unless you want the make and model #.)
On Jun 3, 6:42 pm, Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
> As for HD, none yet.
Gotcha. So when you go for an HDTV make sure it comes with it's own ATSC tuner. When you search for channels you will find digital channels typically are on the x.x format.
My channel lineup looks like this, all are SD unless marked HD.
2 (ABC) 2.1 (ABC HD) 3 (the CW) 4 (TV Guide Channel) 5 (PAX / ION) 6 (CBS) 6.1 (CBS HD) 6.2 (I haven't figured out the purpose for this one, appears to be a dupe of 6.1) 7 (Discovery channel) 8 (NBC) 8.1 (NBC HD) 8.2 (Local NBC weather channel) 9 (WGN) 10 (PBS) 10.1 (PBS HD) 10.2 (PBS Create) 10.3 (PBS local government)
The interesting thing is that 10 and 10.1 have unique programming. It's not a simple matter of having an SD and HD version of the same channel the way ABC, CBS and NBC are. Right now they overlap (showing "Nature" in SD and HD) but at 9 PM Pacific the SD channel changes to Mystery! while the HD channel becomes "Craft in America".
All of these channels were detected over my standard basic cable. I don't have Comcast's digital package or anything like that. There are more than I list here, I just thought the first 10 show what I'm talking about.
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:12:47 -0700, Jordan <lu...@earthlink.net> wrote: >The interesting thing is that 10 and 10.1 have unique programming. >It's not a simple matter of having an SD and HD version of the same >channel the way ABC, CBS and NBC are. Right now they overlap (showing >"Nature" in SD and HD) but at 9 PM Pacific the SD channel changes to >Mystery! while the HD channel becomes "Craft in America".
>All of these channels were detected over my standard basic cable. I >don't have Comcast's digital package or anything like that. There are >more than I list here, I just thought the first 10 show what I'm >talking about.
>- Jordan
You forgot one other channel type designation.
Most city's PBS carrier has multiple channels. A standard broadcast, a "digital" broadcast in standard aspect, and an HD digital broadcast.
All three can carry different programming at any given time. Your city also happens to have a fourth PBS broadcast, likely digital (as all the channels not able to be received by a standard tuner are).
JackShephard wrote: > On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:12:47 -0700, Jordan <lu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>All of these channels were detected over my standard basic cable. I >>don't have Comcast's digital package or anything like that. There are >>more than I list here, I just thought the first 10 show what I'm >>talking about.
> You forgot one other channel type designation.
> Most city's PBS carrier has multiple channels. A standard broadcast, a > "digital" broadcast in standard aspect, and an HD digital broadcast.
(...Look, it's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT poster! And he CARES about topic!) ;)
>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:12:47 -0700, Jordan <lu...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>All of these channels were detected over my standard basic cable. I >>>don't have Comcast's digital package or anything like that. There are >>>more than I list here, I just thought the first 10 show what I'm >>>talking about.
>> You forgot one other channel type designation.
>> Most city's PBS carrier has multiple channels. A standard broadcast, a >> "digital" broadcast in standard aspect, and an HD digital broadcast.
>(...Look, it's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT poster! And he CARES about >topic!) ;)
Fuck you, dickhead. If you can't read the headers to see when some lame fuck from auk is cloning and forging posts in someone else's name, you have no business making any fucktard assessments.
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote: > I've seen them, and they're a jump up in price, which isn't an issue > this far off-- > Thing is, although 60"+ screens need the high amount of resolution, > there's a point at which getting a "small" bigscreen with 1080 becomes > like getting an iPod with 1080: How much difference is it going to > MAKE?? ;)
I wouldn't worry about the 720p vs. 1080p thing. For one thing, there really isn't much difference between 720p and 1080p, and on a smaller screen (45" or smaller), the difference is going to be even less apparent. Furthermore, most TV/cable stations are only in 720p anyways, with only a few using 1080i. It'll be quite a while before everyone switches to 1080p.
I think 720p should be fine - just make sure it's really 720p, and not something odd like 768, which tries to do a fakey 1080i... I'd just go with true 720p or 1080p (if you don't mind the extra price) - skip 1080i entirely.
Jay G. <J...@tmbg.org> wrote: > People can distinguish between anamorphic and non-anamorphic DVDs, and > that's only a 20% increase in resolution. 1080p is *twice* the resolution > than 720p, so it's definitely noticeable.
But that also assumes that the TV itself isn't upscaling. I have a 1080p set, however, it upscales everything to 1080p regardless of the source material and signal. So, on it, there's virtually no difference between 720p and 1080p.
Most source material is going to be at 720p, unless you plan on heavily investing in Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. So, even a 720p set which will downscale 1080i/1080p signals will still look great.
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote: > (Comcast, that's what we've got in our area-- > And just *try* fighting off their efforts to sell you the digital > on-demand package, so no help asking them about basic-HD.)
I get the OTA HD channels through my plain old, non-digital, cable connection. True, I don't get DiscoveryHD, or FoodNetworkHD, but I do get ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and about 5 PBS HD channels. For awhile, I even got History Channel (non-HD, but was channel 69.3?) and I still get a bunch of the stupid "digital music" channels which sound worse than my regular radio. And Comcast wants you to PAY for that service?
> Which (hopefully built-in) tuner would I be looking for WITHOUT the > HD-DVR box? > Up till now, I've always fed my standard-cable signals in through the > cable-ready VCR (which's why I've never gone for standard-DVR either), > as I like to skip the monthly box shakedown.
Look for a set that has a QAM tuner. That should allow you to get the local OTA HD stations through your regular cable without needing "digital cable", or an upgrade to "HD". Just remember, if you have a non-HD-DVR, you'll need to use a good quality splitter (and maybe one with a signal booster built into it) so you can plug the cable into your TV for HDTV, and your DVR for recording non-HD channels.
You can also purchase an external QAM tuner, unfortunately most seem to do stupid things like HD->Composite/Svideo, meaning they're intended for the eventual switchover circa 2009 or so when all OTA TV signals will go HD but folks like Grandma don't want to buy a new TV.
At least, that's all my friend has been able to find. He's in an apartment building, facing the "wrong" way for his HD antenna to pickup anything, but he does have cable.
That's a 720p display (well, technically a 1366 x 768 display, but 720p is the closest HD resolution). The 1080i listed in the specs is a "supported format" that it can accept as an input, but it's not what it outputs. It outputs a 720p image, no matter what the input is.
> > ALL LCD displays are PROGRESSIVE, idiot.
> Do us a favor and learn a little about "native resolution" vs. "supported > resolution", ok? Thanks.
The native resolution is the one that people are talking about when they're talking about 720p vs. 1080p LCD displays. Using "supported resolution" would be worthless, since pretty much all 720p displays support 1080i, and many 1080p displays only support up to 1080i as an input, and not 1080p.
On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:32:18 -0000, Doug Jacobs wrote: > I wouldn't worry about the 720p vs. 1080p thing. For one thing, there > really isn't much difference between 720p and 1080p,
The difference between 720p and 1080p is 200%, much more than the 20% difference that anamorphic enhancement on DVDs provide.
> ...on a smaller screen (45" or smaller), the difference is going to > be even less apparent.
This is really the only thing you got (half-way) right. Screen size, relative to viewing distance, is going to affect whether or not the increase in resolution anyway.
> Furthermore, most TV/cable stations are only in 720p anyways, with only a > few using 1080i. It'll be quite a while before everyone switches to 1080p.
There's plenty of stuff being shown in 1080i now. And again, I was speaking in terms of "future-proofing" his purchase, as Derek was looking for a TV that would be able to serve him well past 2009.
> I think 720p should be fine - just make sure it's really 720p, and not > something odd like 768..
Most "720p" LCD TV sets are really 768, or to be more technical, 1366x768. It's a compromise resolution between the 1280x720 of HD and the 1024x768 of the XGA monitor resolution. Thus the screen has enough pixels to display both resolutions, and in the correct aspect ratio for each.
It's not really a problem, since the TV just upconverts the 1280x720 HD signal slightly.
