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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: "Alex Chernavsky" <a...@astrocyte-design.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 01:26:29 GMT
Local: Fri, Sep 22 2000 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
I (Alex Chernavsky) wrote: Donna Richoux replied: >I would definitely do a double-take if I >heard someone say, "I think it fair...". >I sense you have another thingk coming. You've heard it. I'm not realizing what you're saying. What makes you say that I've heard >Really, isn't that what's happening here? People are not the expression? If this has come up before on aue, then I don't remember it. -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
The topic has not come up before, not I know of, but I was certain that
you had seen the usage before, here as well as elsewhere, and simply not realized it. By now I'm sure you've seen John Lawler's explanation and other posts. I just got around to using Deja to look for instances of it in a.u.e. It didn't turn up many (common words are hard to search for) but I found these: Author: James Follett <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> Author: Charles Riggs <ri...@RemoveThiseircom.net> Author: Michael W Cook <mwc...@globalnet.co.uk> These are not typos or mistakes by non-native speakers. -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: "Alex Chernavsky" <a...@astrocyte-design.com>
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
Donna Richoux wrote, in part:
>I was certain that you had seen the usage ["I think it fair..."] Yes, you're right. Thanks for digging up those examples. >before, here as well as elsewhere, and simply not realized it. -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: "Michael West" <mbwest@(remove)bigpond.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 05:47:46 GMT
Local: Sat, Sep 23 2000 1:47 am
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
news:1ehdz2h.1mjfb83nxf6wwN%trio@euronet.nl...
I think so, too. I often hear, read and say "I think it odd [strange, funny, weird, obvious, unlikely] -- whatever. -- /\/\/\/\/ You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: k...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe)
Date: 2000/09/23
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
In article <d5gnsss825glfpc3nuc60c06n7vm0sa...@4ax.com>,
Michael Cargal <mhcar...@home.com> wrote: >Both "I think it's fair to say" and "I think it fair to say" are things: "I think it fair to say" - I think I ought to say this. They are nearly interchangeable but in a given context I would be likely to Katy You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: Michael Cargal <mhcar...@home.com>
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
k...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote: In mulling over these two examples, I can imagine using either example >I agree that both are correct. I would use them to mean slightly different >things: >"I think it fair to say" - I think I ought to say this. >They are nearly interchangeable but in a given context I would be likely to when either definition is called for. -- Michael Cargal mhcar...@home.com You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: jlaw...@login.itd.umich.edu (John Lawler)
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
Judy Lorton <lort...@geocities.com> writes: That depends on what you mean by "a sentence like" that one. >Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either >is correct in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that .... " It's not the sentence, it's the main verb that governs things like this. It happens that many verbs of mental process like 'consider' and 'know' I consider/believe/know/*want (that) it is fair. [Note that the 'that' is optional; seeing if it can be inserted or an infinitive complement with Raising: I consider/believe/know/want it to be fair. If the infinitive is 'to be', it may be optionally deleted after I consider/believe/*know/want it fair. This illustrates three basic principles about governing verbs: a) verbs have more fun; i.e, what determines practically everything b) verbs of a feather flock together; i.e, verbs that mean similar c) no verb is exactly like any other; e.g, 'know' doesn't allow Well, as it happens, 'think' flocks with these verbs, and allows both I think (that) it's fair. And that's how the seeming similarity of I think it fair. is produced. It's not a matter of 'it' at all; this would work for I think Aurora's beautiful. Verbs are where it's at. The rest of the words in a sentence are just -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U of Michigan Linguistics Dept You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: R J Valentine <r...@clark.net>
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
...
] Well, as it happens, 'think' flocks with these verbs, and allows both ] types of complement, but instead of *allowing* 'to be'-deletion, it ] *requires* it: ] ] I think (that) it's fair. ] *I think it to be fair. ] I think it fair. ... I consider "requires" to be a little stronger than necessary. I think the Is there an official rule about it? Does it work that way in Latin? -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: perchpr...@aol.com (Perchprism)
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
Excellent work. Judy must be well-satisfied at such an answer, though it does
leave out considerations of idiom in specific phrases. Just one thing. In thinking this over, I came to the conclusion that "think" in -- You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: jlaw...@login.itd.umich.edu (John Lawler)
Date: 2000/09/24
Subject: Re: "It" vs "It's"
Perchprism <perchpr...@aol.com> writes: Sorry about that; I'm more interested in the general answers. >Excellent work. Judy must be well-satisfied at such an answer, though it >does leave out considerations of idiom in specific phrases. >Just one thing. In thinking this over, I came to the conclusion that That has to do with the pragmatic usage of performative verbs -- whether >"think" in "I think it fair" functions the way "dub" does, or did. Your >post has me wondering--do you think "I dub thee X" is "I dub thee to be >X " with out the "to be?" I rather thought "dub" acts almost like a >copulative there and needs no "to be." "Call" seems to behave similarly. the use of "baptize" actually performs an act of baptism, and whether use of "dub" or "name" actually changes the denomination of the referent of the direct object. This is rarely a matter of grammar, but -- once again -- more a matter of the details of particular verbs. For more on the subject of verbs, consult Austin's "How To Do Things With -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U of Michigan Linguistics Dept You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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