"Gotten" in NZEng?
HVS
things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
can't tell where the writers come from.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Fred
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9CCDB45B...@news.albasani.net...
> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>
> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
> can't tell where the writers come from.)
>
It's reasonably common here (NZ), but not standard.
Peter Moylan
> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>
> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
> can't tell where the writers come from.)
I can't answer for NZ, but I can testify that "gotten" is now common in
Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame it on
the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American.
"Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
annily
> HVS wrote:
>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
>> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
>> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
>> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>>
>> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
>> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
>> can't tell where the writers come from.)
>
> I can't answer for NZ, but I can testify that "gotten" is now common in
> Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame it on
> the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American.
>
> "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself.
>
I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten".
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
Eric Walker
[...]
> I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten".
In AmEng there is something of a distinction between "got" and "gotten",
with the latter usually signifying the result of a process:
I've gotten two tickets for tonight's show. [I have reached this state.]
I've got two tickets for tonight's show. [I am in this state.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Peter Moylan
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:50:51 +1030, annily wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten".
>
> In AmEng there is something of a distinction between "got" and
> "gotten", with the latter usually signifying the result of a process:
>
>
> I've gotten two tickets for tonight's show. [I have reached this
> state.]
>
> I've got two tickets for tonight's show. [I am in this state.
This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my
school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through
hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time
I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get".
Tasha Miller
> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>
> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
> can't tell where the writers come from.)
I grew up in NZ and "gotten" has never been in my vocabulary. I was taught
that "got" was the most unnecessary word in the English language and
"gotten" was an abomination. It has been only in recent years that I learned
from educated USians who routinely use "gotten" that it's more of a dialect
difference than anything else. My Australian born and raised children don't
seem to have picked it up and I am sure I would have noticed. I am not at
all fond of the "haitch" I hear too often, for example.
I can easily believe that exposure to American film and TV has made "gotten"
more common in other English speaking countries, especially among children
and young people.
HVS
Thanks; it rather confused me. (I've heard tell that it's appearing
in BrE, but I've not personally seen it outside of language
discussions or obvious imports; I guess it's a bit further lodged in
NZ than here.)
HVS
I guess that's what rather surprised me, as the NZ
sportswoman/broadcaster who used it is (according to the profile)
in her 40s rather than a youngster.
She does, however, work for NZ's TV3, which a quick google suggests
is owned by a Canadian media conglomerate; so it may well be
corporate influence in this case.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
Better burn all the KJV Bibles then.
While that is in print outside the US, "gotten" will be gone but not forgot.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
>This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my
>school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through
>hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time
>I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get".
Your teachers and mine must have gone to the same school. And for a long time
I thought the same.
Robin Bignall
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:32:11 +1100, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep> wrote:
>
>>This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my
>>school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through
>>hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time
>>I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get".
>
>Your teachers and mine must have gone to the same school. And for a long time
>I thought the same.
Schoolteachers back in the day thought that using "get" all the time
was a bit vulgar. (Yes, even on the mean streets we ordinary people
had come across the notion of vulgarity.) Thus, "I got up in the
morning and got my breakfast and then got my bike but got a puncture
and then got the cane for being late and got a late lunch...." would
get some red ink through it. But it was how most kids spoke.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I speculated in this ng some time ago that the effect of, and possibly a
motivation for, the ban on "get" was to expand the vocabulary of the
kids.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister
> HVS wrote:
>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
>> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
>> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
>> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>>
>> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
>> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
>> can't tell where the writers come from.)
>
> I can't answer for NZ, but I can testify that "gotten" is now common in
> Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame it on
> the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American.
I don't think that's the reason, since I doubt that many of our youths
read newspapers. However, I suspect the answer lies with the most
popular TV programmes, which are mainly American or run by young people
who imitate Americanisms.
>
> "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself.
>
I hear "gotten" more and more, but have not yet been tempted.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Eric Walker wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:50:51 +1030, annily wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten".
>>
>> In AmEng there is something of a distinction between "got" and
>> "gotten", with the latter usually signifying the result of a process:
>>
>>
>> I've gotten two tickets for tonight's show. [I have reached this
>> state.]
>>
>> I've got two tickets for tonight's show. [I am in this state.
>
> This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my
> school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through
> hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time
> I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get".
>
There was (in my school in England). We weren't allowed to write "It was
getting dark".
--
Rob Bannister
John Holmes
> HVS wrote:
>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy
>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend
>> profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports
>> announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the
>> text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ.
>>
>> My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it
>> been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but
>> can't tell where the writers come from.)
>
> I can't answer for NZ, but I can testify that "gotten" is now common
> in Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame
> it on the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American.
>
> "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it
> myself.
I think "gotten" has been around at some level for a long time in AusE
despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from quite
old people who must have been born ca 1900. It seems to be a distinct
minority who say it and nobody else uses it at all. Perhaps a family
thing, and I thought it maight be families from Irish stock, but maybe
not. Maybe it came over during the gold rush.
In the SETIS database I see it used back to the 1840s, and later from
writers such as Rolf Bodrewood and Henry Handel Richardson. See if this
link works:
http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85
points to:
http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2Fot%2Fwww%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&title=&begin_year=&end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match
Perhaps it is similar in NZ.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
James Hogg
The link works. Good site.
The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn
it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments do
opponents use? I have never used it and never will, and it wasn't a
problem in my school days when American films hadn't begun to exert any
great influence on our language. The teacher was busy enough correcting
other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he
has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze".
--
James
Lars Eighner
and talented James Hogg broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> The link works. Good site.
> The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn
> it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments do
> opponents use?
The argument seems to be that it is an Americanism. This is generally
considered damning enough by those who object to it. In truth it is
preserved from a time before British and American dialects parted company.
Perhaps it is still found in British English, preserved in cliches as a fly
in amber ('ill-gotten gains' ?). The English-speaking folks who settled in
the Antipodes spoke British dialects identical with those spoken by many of
the first English-speaking Americans, so it would not be too surprising that
the oldest living Australians remember that the oldest living Australians
they knew used the word that is preserved in American usage.
I rather fancy "got" and use it often, but "gotten" is not a corrupt Yankee
innovation. My real battles about "get" involve its uses as a copula and
as an auxilary verb.
> I have never used it and never will, and it wasn't a problem in my school
> days when American films hadn't begun to exert any great influence on our
> language. The teacher was busy enough correcting other analogous en-less
> past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he has hid", "she has
> forgot", "it has froze".
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5931, 1993
309 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
HVS
I don't think there's ever been a reasoned argument against it on
those grounds, has there? AFAIK, the only objections are based on
deductive reasoning from a position of personal ignorance: "It
sounds funny to me/I've never encountered it/We don't use it where
I come from; therefore it must be substandard and illiterate".
Bohgosity BumaskiL
as the main one that is a problem -- said it was not a word. There is Jean
Chretien's famously awkward "It is getting [to be] a joke". If it were
typical English to use "becoming" in place of three words, then a word that
can also serve as a synonym for "received" would not be a problem in print,
too. Bottom line is that if you can avoid it in print (outside of
quotations, of course), then do so.
_______
Barium: What you do if CPR fails.
Bohgosity BumaskiL
news:7n629nF...@mid.individual.net...
"Darkness was gathering" is another way.
"My space was gaining darkness" is more literal.
Bohgosity BumaskiL
news:heleob$gc6$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I think it has to do with centrality of substitutes. A ban on "got" is
similar to banning "set", which has about thirty meanings, or particular
meanings of "set". The problem is that "got" is replacing core language;
filling in for about three choices of verb that are better, because they are
not idiom.
Steve Hayes
<use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>In our last episode, <heleob$gc6$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, the lovely
>and talented James Hogg broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
>> The link works. Good site.
>
>> The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn
>> it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments do
>> opponents use?
>
>The argument seems to be that it is an Americanism. This is generally
>considered damning enough by those who object to it. In truth it is
>preserved from a time before British and American dialects parted company.
>Perhaps it is still found in British English, preserved in cliches as a fly
>in amber ('ill-gotten gains' ?). The English-speaking folks who settled in
>the Antipodes spoke British dialects identical with those spoken by many of
>the first English-speaking Americans, so it would not be too surprising that
>the oldest living Australians remember that the oldest living Australians
>they knew used the word that is preserved in American usage.
>
>I rather fancy "got" and use it often, but "gotten" is not a corrupt Yankee
>innovation. My real battles about "get" involve its uses as a copula and
>as an auxilary verb.
As I noted in another message, "gotten" was part of 17th-century insular
English, and found its way into the King James Bible. It may sound a little
old fashioned to non-American ears (as does "pitcher"), but it's certainly not
non-standard.
Donna Richoux
> I think "gotten" has been around at some level for a long time in AusE
> despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from quite
> old people who must have been born ca 1900. It seems to be a distinct
> minority who say it and nobody else uses it at all. Perhaps a family
> thing, and I thought it maight be families from Irish stock, but maybe
> not. Maybe it came over during the gold rush.
>
> In the SETIS database I see it used back to the 1840s, and later from
> writers such as Rolf Bodrewood and Henry Handel Richardson. See if this
> link works:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85
> points to:
>
http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2
Fot%2Fwww%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&ti
tle=&begin_year=&end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match
>
> Perhaps it is similar in NZ.
Hang on, though, I don't think that proves that Australians used to say
"gotten." It's an impressive list, but first we have to throw out all
the ones with "ill-gotten" and "new-gotten" as irrelevant, and then
"gotten" when it has the sense of "begotten."
Of what remains, some are obviously strong Scottish dialect (laddie,
hae, etc.) That is interesting, as I don't remember that being a feature
of previous discussions, but it's not standard Australian.
I chose one of the few that remain
Richardson: Maurice Guest (1908) we have at last gotten us a few
friends.
and followed it through the (somewhat awkward) SETIS interface until I
could download a pdf file and identify the characters -- and yes, the
speaker was American.
There are more that could be checked, but it means so far I haven't
found a single truly Australian example. Perhaps you'd care to try.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Robin Bignall
Well of course, but when their parents, relatives, friends and most
people they meet speak like that many (most?) of them don't have the
impetus to try.
Robert Bannister
Certainly. We quickly learned all the synonyms, but we still didn't get it.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
The funny part about that is that many well-known nineteenth century
writers use exactly that style. I've often wondered whether that was the
time when "gotten" dropped out of non-American English.
--
Rob Bannister
John Holmes
>
> There are more that could be checked, but it means so far I haven't
> found a single truly Australian example. Perhaps you'd care to try.
First tell me what you would consider "truly Australian" in the 19th
century.
I'm not sure when we reached a point that the immigrants were
outnumbered by the native-born. And many of the writers of the time were
either immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants whose usage
may well have reflected that of their parents. Or the people they were
writing about were immigrants, and so they are bound to include speech
habits that originated elsewhere. That's just the way it was with AusE
at the time.
John Holmes
> John Holmes wrote:
>>
>> AusE despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from
>> quite old people who must have been born ca 1900. It seems to be a
>> distinct minority who say it and nobody else uses it at all. Perhaps
>> a family thing, and I thought it maight be families from Irish
>> stock, but maybe not. Maybe it came over during the gold rush.
>>
>> In the SETIS database I see it used back to the 1840s, and later from
>> writers such as Rolf Bodrewood and Henry Handel Richardson. See if
>> this link works:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85 points to:
>> http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2Fot%2Fwww%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&title=&begin_year=&end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match
>>
>
> The link works. Good site.
>
> The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn
> it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments
> do opponents use? I have never used it and never will, and it wasn't a
> problem in my school days when American films hadn't begun to exert
> any great influence on our language. The teacher was busy enough
> correcting other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we
> couldn't say "he has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze".
It is something that teachers would red-line in essays and correct in
speech. I don't think I ever heard a reasoned argument against it, and
I'm not sure how actively it is still discouraged these days. If it
isn't, that might account for part of the increase in usage, reinforced
by film and television from the US.
My guess is that it became deprecated about the time of free universal
education, when there was a trend to try to standardise the language. It
was probably seen as a remnant of non-standard dialects, whereas the
model was south-eastern England and RP. So it was something of a
shibboleth like pronouncing the letter 'h' as haitch.
Although logically I rather like 'gotten', I don't use it myself simply
because it doesn't naturally occur to me to say it. It seems to be a
word that you have to acquire at a fairly early age, and that's why I
suspect the usage tends to run in families.
Since the OP in this thread was about NZE, I wonder if the strong
Scottish influence especially in the South Island included some 'gotten'
users, and it was similarly discouraged there.
Donna Richoux
Well, I was just going on the assumption that if the writer was
considered Australian and there was dialog with characters obviously
Scottish or American, that it was the voice of the *narrator* that would
represent standard Australian of the day.
Seeing the quotes in broad Scottish with "gotten" surprised me, because
I had no memory of that connection being made in previous discussions of
the word. I see now I must have simply forgotten it, because it's in the
Intro D entry I helped to write:
However, "gotten" as a verb showed up in dialects in
the North of England into the early 20th century, and
in Scottish English to the present day. These groups,
both represented among early American immigrants,
might be the source of the US use.
I see there are hundreds of examples in the Dictionary of the Scottish
Language, such as:
1699 If the Land be hard being wate plowed and having
gotten no Frost to soften it, in that case you must ...
1877 The Laird, puir body, had gotten awa.
1887 Mab had gotten a new hat
Then it sort of dies away in the 20th century until the end, where it is
briskly revived.
I checked the Herald Scotland archives to see how it is used these days.
We still have to get past "ill-gotten" and quotations in the mouths of
other nationalities, but there are some, such as:
22 Nov 2009
Derren Brown could learn a thing or two at Ibrox.
There's those disappearing acts that Madjid Bougherra has gotten down to
a fine art ...
This one quotes an Irish speaker:
13 Sep 2009
David McWilliams, a dynamic young Dublin-based economist and broadcaster
... [said] "The shocks we've gotten lately have gotten us to think
differently ..."