Mishy-phens 2004
Donna Richoux
It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
"mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
hyphenated this way in print.
SECTION I. FROM THE 2000 LIST, in alphabetical order.
arse-
nal
babys-
itter
bee-
fhearts
chil-
drearing
code-
pendents
disc-
losing
flys-
watter
fun-
draiser
home-
opathic
imp-
aired
lifes-
pan
lighty-
ears
male-
volently
men-
swear
misty-
ped
Scarboro-
ugh
ong-
oing
rear-
ranged
troubles-
hooting
war-
rant
whites-
pace
SECTION II. ADDITIONS 2000-2004
acade-
mics
breads-
ticks
cave-
ats
eve-
ryone
delay-
ering ("has taken out middle management...")
mean-
dering
minds-
laughter (when "mind-slaughter" was clearly meant)
PlayS-
tation
pronoun-
cement
SECTION III. MISCELLANEOUS
Not hyphenated, but otherwise close (a mishy phen?):
its
elf
Other sorts of misleading word divisions are treated under "Misles."
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Professor Redwine
> SECTION III. MISCELLANEOUS
>
> Not hyphenated, but otherwise close (a mishy phen?):
>
> its
> elf
I just finished reading David Lodge's "Changing Places" on the train home
this afternoon. I can't find the page now, but I was momentarily baffled
by the erroneous spacing that lead to something like "we are worried about
our job sand houses".
--
Redwine
Hamburg
(previously: Berlin, Northants, Derbs, Staffs, NSW, Tasmania,
Melbourne, rural Victoria, in that and many other orders)
Mark Brader
> I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
> hyphenated this way in print.
On March 21, Arthur J. O'Dwyer posted this one in rec.puzzles (saying
that he had seen it in print) and I forwarded it to Donna:
line-
age
Perhaps this looks uninteresting because it could be the two-syllable
term used in relation to periodicals and also spelled "linage", but I
hardly think Arthur would have posted it in that case. It must be the
three-syllable word related to ancestry. The hyphen is on an actual
syllable break, but a mishy-phen nonetheless.
> SECTION III. MISCELLANEOUS
>
> Not hyphenated, but otherwise close (a mishy phen?):
>
> its
> elf
In 2000 I saw a nice one of these and reported it to Donna, suggesting
the term "misw rap" for it. The one I saw was:
riders
hip
This came up in an online library catalog entry, whose lines were
wrapping on the catalog terminal without regard to word boundaries.
Special operating assistance for the Spadina Subway : riders
hip counting procedures and estimation methodology / submitt
ed by the Toronto Transit Commission to the Minister
"Riders' hip counting", anyone?
--
Mark Brader "Could you please continue the petty bickering?
Toronto I find it most intriguing."
m...@vex.net -- Data ("Haven", ST:TNG, Tracy Torme)
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Donna Richoux
> Donna Richoux writes:
> > I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
> > hyphenated this way in print.
>
> On March 21, Arthur J. O'Dwyer posted this one in rec.puzzles (saying
> that he had seen it in print) and I forwarded it to Donna:
Thanks for jogging my elbow, Mark. I see now I did receive two emails
from you with misles and mishyphens, I don't know why I didn't make a
note in the file I keep on these. I'll go through them for additions.
If I've missed anyone else's, please be kind enough to remind me. I do
try to watch for new ones, but I don't always get them.
> > SECTION III. MISCELLANEOUS
> >
> > Not hyphenated, but otherwise close (a mishy phen?):
> >
> > its
> > elf
>
> In 2000 I saw a nice one of these and reported it to Donna, suggesting
> the term "misw rap" for it. The one I saw was:
>
> riders
> hip
>
> This came up in an online library catalog entry, whose lines were
> wrapping on the catalog terminal without regard to word boundaries.
>
> Special operating assistance for the Spadina Subway : riders
> hip counting procedures and estimation methodology / submitt
> ed by the Toronto Transit Commission to the Minister
>
> "Riders' hip counting", anyone?
Well, now we have two, its elf and riders hip. I don't know if these are
going to occur often enough to form their own category. Is there any
editing process that is likely to break a word without a hyphen? Do
people see words broken over lines like this in boring places, like
Richar dson or inve stigation (no hyphen)?
Richard Ulrich
wrote:
> A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
> It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
> "mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
>
[ ... ]
> SECTION II. ADDITIONS 2000-2004
>
> minds-
> laughter (when "mind-slaughter" was clearly meant)
>
Wasn't this one "man-slaughter"?
- which has a google history in a.u.e. but is missing
from the list.
--
Rich Ulrich, wpi...@pitt.edu
http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
Donna Richoux
> On Fri, 21 May 2004 22:24:28 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> > A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
> > It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
> > "mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
> >
> [ ... ]
> > SECTION II. ADDITIONS 2000-2004
>
> >
> > minds-
> > laughter (when "mind-slaughter" was clearly meant)
> >
>
> Wasn't this one "man-slaughter"?
> - which has a google history in a.u.e. but is missing
> from the list.
I already sent Rich some details, not knowing that he had both posted
and emailed. "Mindslaughter" was the title of a book that was reviewed
in the New York Times, Dec. 8, 1999. I have "manslaughter" as a misle,
but not as a mishy-phen.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Andrew Bull
>A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
>It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
>"mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
>
>I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
>hyphenated this way in print.
I have a book which hyphenates
pre-
ssmen
thus.
Gary G. Taylor
> Well, now we have two, its elf and riders hip. I don't know if these are
> going to occur often enough to form their own category. Is there any
> editing process that is likely to break a word without a hyphen? Do
> people see words broken over lines like this in boring places, like
> Richar dson or inve stigation (no hyphen)?
If you use the old DOS/CP/M command TYPE or the Unix/Linux cat command to
display a text file on a terminal, the displayed text will wrap where the
line ends--often in the middle of a word. One could therefore display a
file that way and go through the display looking for interesting bits, but
I'm not quite bored enough to try that right now.
--
Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA
gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org
"The two most abundant things in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison
dcw
Mark Brader <m...@shell.vex.net> wrote:
>On March 21, Arthur J. O'Dwyer posted this one in rec.puzzles (saying
>that he had seen it in print) and I forwarded it to Donna:
>
> line-
> age
>
>Perhaps this looks uninteresting because it could be the two-syllable
>term used in relation to periodicals and also spelled "linage", but I
>hardly think Arthur would have posted it in that case. It must be the
>three-syllable word related to ancestry. The hyphen is on an actual
>syllable break, but a mishy-phen nonetheless.
I've reported this one as well. It was clearly meant as the three-
syllable word when I saw it.
>In 2000 I saw a nice one of these and reported it to Donna, suggesting
>the term "misw rap" for it. The one I saw was:
>
> riders
> hip
I recently saw
downs-
hip
for what was clearly meant as "down-ship"
David
Stewart Gordon
> A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
> It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
> "mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
>
> I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
> hyphenated this way in print.
>
> SECTION I. FROM THE 2000 LIST, in alphabetical order.
>
> arse-
> nal
OK, so how should this by hyphe-nated then?
<snip>
> men-
> swear
<snip>
Understandable, as an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised that
that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words.
Similarly, we have children-swear and women-swear but OTOH ladies-wear.
But the NQAC kid-s-wear, boy-s-wear and girl-s-wear can be broken
either way if you ignore the grammatical aspect....
FTM why is "adultswear" practically unheard-of? And why are half of
these words not in any online dictionary to be seen?
Stewart.
--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.
rewboss
news:c8sn71$4u3$1...@sun-cc204.lut.ac.uk...
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>
> > A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
> > It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
> > "mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
> >
> > I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
> > hyphenated this way in print.
> >
> > SECTION I. FROM THE 2000 LIST, in alphabetical order.
> >
> > arse-
> > nal
>
> OK, so how should this by hyphe-nated then?
ar-senal. Webster's (for one) says that although the syllables are
ar-se-nal, the word should not be broken after the "e". The same goes for
arsenic, arsenide, arsenous and other words beginning with "arse".
> <snip>
> > men-
> > swear
> <snip>
>
> Understandable, as an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised that
> that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words.
No: firstly, because the word is composed of the elements "mens" and "wear";
and secondly, because the object is not to break the word down into smaller
words, but into syllables in order to be able to justify the text with more
ease. On its own, "mens" is not a word, this is true; but that's not the
point. The point is not to confuse readers and force them to backtrack; line
breaks are always tricky things, and there's no point in making them even
trickier.
Note that "menswear" is not the same as, say, "menstrual", which should be
broken, if necessary, after the "n". This is because "menstrual" comes from
an entirely different root: "mensis", Latin for "month" (and hyphenated
"men-sis").
> Similarly, we have children-swear and women-swear but OTOH ladies-wear.
> But the NQAC kid-s-wear, boy-s-wear and girl-s-wear can be broken
> either way if you ignore the grammatical aspect....
I'm interested to know what this grammatical aspect is.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Stewart Gordon" <smjg...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> Understandable, as an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised that
>> that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words.
>
> No: firstly, because the word is composed of the elements "mens" and
> "wear"; and secondly, because the object is not to break the word
> down into smaller words, but into syllables in order to be able to
> justify the text with more ease. On its own, "mens" is not a word,
> this is true; but that's not the point. The point is not to confuse
> readers and force them to backtrack; line breaks are always tricky
> things, and there's no point in making them even trickier.
He didn't say it was right. He said it was "understandable".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level,
|there will soon be none of that thing
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the
(650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something
|for nothing.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
rewboss
news:ekp9rf...@hpl.hp.com...
> "rewboss" <rew...@rewboss.com> writes:
>
> > "Stewart Gordon" <smjg...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >> Understandable, as an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised that
> >> that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words.
> >
> > No: firstly, because the word is composed of the elements "mens" and
> > "wear"; and secondly, because the object is not to break the word
> > down into smaller words, but into syllables in order to be able to
> > justify the text with more ease. On its own, "mens" is not a word,
> > this is true; but that's not the point. The point is not to confuse
> > readers and force them to backtrack; line breaks are always tricky
> > things, and there's no point in making them even trickier.
>
> He didn't say it was right. He said it was "understandable".
He also said, and I quote: 'an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised
that
that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words', and other
statements that at least implied he thought the autohy-phenator was correct
here.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> schrieb
I didn't read it that way. I read it as saying "It looks like they
used an auto-hyphenator, and that's what you'd expect one to do if it
didn't have a special rule for the word". In other words, "that looks
like a plausible failure mode".
For what it's worth, the TeX hyphenation algorithm doesn't suggest any
hyphenation points in "menswear", but it's not too hard to see
somebody try to make it "smarter" by looking for ways to divide a word
in two if possible.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you
|don't get good theories. You get
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |theology instead.
(650)857-7572 | --John Lawler
Gene Wirchenko
>"Stewart Gordon" <smjg...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:c8sn71$4u3$1...@sun-cc204.lut.ac.uk...
[snip]
>> <snip>
>> > men-
>> > swear
>> <snip>
>>
>> Understandable, as an auto-hyphenator would've probably realised that
>> that's the only possible division of "menswear" into two words.
>
>No: firstly, because the word is composed of the elements "mens" and "wear";
>and secondly, because the object is not to break the word down into smaller
>words, but into syllables in order to be able to justify the text with more
>ease. On its own, "mens" is not a word, this is true; but that's not the
>point. The point is not to confuse readers and force them to backtrack; line
Give or take an apostrophe, it is. And, there is "mens rea".
>breaks are always tricky things, and there's no point in making them even
>trickier.
You are no fun!
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
rewboss
Well, that was the way I originally read it, then I changed my mind as I was
composing an answer... now I don't know what to think.
But even so... No, it's not understandable. Autohyp-henators, like
spell-chequers, are unreliable, and anyone who relies on them shouldn't be
editing professional publications. A combination of over-reliance on
computer software (which has no concept of context or meaning) and sloppy
editing results in this kind of mess. My local paper obviously uses some XML
application for its publishing software because I sometimes see malformed
XML entities in the text. Saying it's a result of using this kind of
software is a cop-out.
Stewart Gordon
<snip>
> ar-senal. Webster's (for one) says that although the syllables are
> ar-se-nal, the word should not be broken after the "e". The same goes
> for arsenic, arsenide, arsenous and other words beginning with
> "arse".
These words are bisyllabic (the e is silent) in BrE. Well, at least
"arsenal" and "arsenic" are, not entirely sure how I'd pronounce the
other two....
<snip>
>> Similarly, we have children-swear and women-swear but OTOH
>> ladies-wear. But the NQAC kid-s-wear, boy-s-wear and girl-s-wear
>> can be broken either way if you ignore the grammatical aspect....
>
>
> I'm interested to know what this grammatical aspect is.
Subject-verb agreement.
rewboss
> rewboss wrote:
> <snip>
> > ar-senal. Webster's (for one) says that although the syllables are
> > ar-se-nal, the word should not be broken after the "e". The same goes
> > for arsenic, arsenide, arsenous and other words beginning with
> > "arse".
>
> These words are bisyllabic (the e is silent) in BrE. Well, at least
> "arsenal" and "arsenic" are, not entirely sure how I'd pronounce the
> other two....
If you're not sure, you shouldn't make such sweeping statements. It doesn't
matter whether the words are bisyllabic or not -- I don't understand the
relevance of your point here. Plus, there are many dialects of BrE: are you
sure you can speak for all of them?
FWIW, Webster's is an American dictionary, but it still insists that you
should never break "arsenal" after the "e", despite the fact that the word
"arse" is uncommon in AmE ("ass" being preferred).
> >> Similarly, we have children-swear and women-swear but OTOH
> >> ladies-wear. But the NQAC kid-s-wear, boy-s-wear and girl-s-wear
> >> can be broken either way if you ignore the grammatical aspect....
> >
> >
> > I'm interested to know what this grammatical aspect is.
>
> Subject-verb agreement.
Huh? Could you explain that, please? Are you suggesting that "kids" is the
subject of "wear"? How do you parse a sentence like "kidswear costs a lot of
money these days"? Does "menswear" then really mean "men swear"? Is this why
my girlfriend insists on shopping for me? Have you actually consulted a
dictionary on this matter, or are you making up the rules as you go along?
rew-boss: bossing the rew like nobody's business.
Stewart Gordon
<snip>
> If you're not sure, you shouldn't make such sweeping statements. It doesn't
> matter whether the words are bisyllabic or not -- I don't understand the
> relevance of your point here. Plus, there are many dialects of BrE: are you
> sure you can speak for all of them?
No.
<snip>
> Huh? Could you explain that, please? Are you suggesting that "kids" is the
> subject of "wear"?
Well, I was thinking of "kid" as the subject of "swear" actually.
> How do you parse a sentence like "kidswear costs a lot of
> money these days"?
Sentence
Clause
Subject
Noun
kidswear
Verb
costs
Object
Object
Determiner
a
Noun
lot
Prepositional Phrase
Preposition
of
Object
Noun
money
Adjunct
Determiner
these
Noun
days
> Does "menswear" then really mean "men swear"? Is this why
> my girlfriend insists on shopping for me? Have you actually consulted a
> dictionary on this matter, or are you making up the rules as you go along?
I didn't think I needed a dictionary to enumerate the positions at which
a space could be inserted in "menswear" to produce two words, a concept
that in itself has nothing to do with semantics, morphology or whatever
you're trying to suggest.
Or was I supposed to look in the dictionary to find out that "nswear" is
also an obscure word?
R H Draney
Ladies and gentlemen, we have here the definitive answer to the oft-asked
question: "why can't I use a proportional font?"...
When I saw this message, words and their descriptive tags were all flush with
the left margin...(here's hoping that when I hit the "Send message" button,
*this* message will preserve the indentation I didn't see until I went into
reply mode)....r
rewboss
> I didn't think I needed a dictionary to enumerate the positions at which
> a space could be inserted in "menswear" to produce two words, a concept
> that in itself has nothing to do with semantics, morphology or whatever
> you're trying to suggest.
>
> Or was I supposed to look in the dictionary to find out that "nswear" is
> also an obscure word?
Hold on. Are we talking cross-purposes here?
I'm saying that the only legitimate place to break the word "menswear" is
after the "s", but you're not talking about hyphenating words, are you?
You're talking of splitting a word into two different words, right?
rewboss
news:c8vuo...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Ladies and gentlemen, we have here the definitive answer to the oft-asked
> question: "why can't I use a proportional font?"...
>
> When I saw this message, words and their descriptive tags were all flush
with
> the left margin...(here's hoping that when I hit the "Send message"
button,
> *this* message will preserve the indentation I didn't see until I went
into
> reply mode)....r
Can't be anything to do with the font. My newsreader shows the whole lot
flush left whatever font I use. I do get tabs showing up in a proportional
font, they're just the wrong size.
Stewart Gordon
> "R H Draney" <dado...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:c8vuo...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> When I saw this message, words and their descriptive tags were all
>> flush with the left margin...(here's hoping that when I hit the
>> "Send message" button, *this* message will preserve the
>> indentation I didn't see until I went into reply mode)....r
>
> Can't be anything to do with the font. My newsreader shows the
> whole lot flush left whatever font I use. I do get tabs showing up
> in a proportional font, they're just the wrong size.
Do you mean you get tabs showing up in other applications? Or you get
tab characters actually rendered visibly in other messages? Or what?
And what do you mean by 'wrong size'?
Stewart Gordon
<snip>
> Hold on. Are we talking cross-purposes here?
I think so. Hang on ... or are we talking _at_ cross-purposes?
> I'm saying that the only legitimate place to break the word "menswear" is
> after the "s", but you're not talking about hyphenating words, are you?
Depends on what you mean by "talking about hyphenating words". If you
mean talking of the positions at which it is correct to insert a hyphen
in a word, then no. If you mean talking of selected positions at which
it is physically possible to insert a hyphen in a word, then in a way, yes.
> You're talking of splitting a word into two different words, right?
Yes.
rewboss
> rewboss wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Hold on. Are we talking cross-purposes here?
>
> I think so. Hang on ... or are we talking _at_ cross-purposes?
>
> > I'm saying that the only legitimate place to break the word "menswear"
is
> > after the "s", but you're not talking about hyphenating words, are you?
>
> Depends on what you mean by "talking about hyphenating words". If you
> mean talking of the positions at which it is correct to insert a hyphen
> in a word, then no. If you mean talking of selected positions at which
> it is physically possible to insert a hyphen in a word, then in a way,
yes.
>
> > You're talking of splitting a word into two different words, right?
>
> Yes.
Whew. I'm glad we got that sorted out.
The rewBrain(TM) needs upgrading...
rewboss
> rewboss wrote:
> > "R H Draney" <dado...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:c8vuo...@drn.newsguy.com...
> <snip>
> >> When I saw this message, words and their descriptive tags were all
> >> flush with the left margin...(here's hoping that when I hit the
> >> "Send message" button, *this* message will preserve the
> >> indentation I didn't see until I went into reply mode)....r
> >
> > Can't be anything to do with the font. My newsreader shows the
> > whole lot flush left whatever font I use. I do get tabs showing up
> > in a proportional font, they're just the wrong size.
>
> Do you mean you get tabs showing up in other applications? Or you get
> tab characters actually rendered visibly in other messages? Or what?
>
> And what do you mean by 'wrong size'?
Okay, I was imprecise there.
In your post, where you parsed the sentence, everything showed up on my
newsreader flush left. R H Draney had the same, but when he hit the reply
button, he got all the indentations and everything, so your post made sense.
He speculated that this was to do with the use of a proportional font.
I beg to differ, because I don't get the indentations when I hit the reply
button. Also, I don't get the indentations when I switch to a monospace
font. It's always flush left. Copying and pasting to another application
doesn't help. Therefore, it must be my newsreader that's at fault.
But this mystifies me. Normally, when someone uses the tab key to make nice,
pretty tables, I still see the whitespace generated by the use of the tab
key, but, because I usually use a proportional font (it's easier to read,
usually), things tend not to line up properly. The tab key usually generates
a series of spaces, and in a proportional font, the spaces are fairly
narrow. If I switch to monospace, everything (should) line up properly. But
not in this case, which is a mystery.
Well, I think I have solved the mystery, but I had to look at the source
text, where all your indentations show up properly. It turns out that the
indentations are genuine tab characters, instead of spaces.
When I press the tab key in my newsreader, it generates a series of four
spaces instead of a real tab character. Why? Because there's no standard
width for a tab character. One reader might make a tab the same width as
five characters, another four, a third six. So some people may end up seeing
a jumbled mess instead of a nice, clear table. My newsreader simply ignores
tab characters.
Mark Brader
not see this in print, but I did see it in a paper published some
years ago on the WWW in PostScript, with a note saying that it is
"to appear" in print, so the it probably has appeared in print in the
same form. The Postscript version of the document is available at:
http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/project/pub/documents/1996/96-ker-intro-ontologies.ps
And if you look in section 2.3.3, you will find this:
... this facilitates (semi-
)automatic development ...
Eek!!
I suppose some people would say that if they're going to use words like
"(semi-)automatic", they deserve what they get. Personally, I disagree.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't be evil."
m...@vex.net -- corporate policy, Google Inc.
Robert Bannister
> When I saw this message, words and their descriptive tags were all flush with
> the left margin...(here's hoping that when I hit the "Send message" button,
> *this* message will preserve the indentation I didn't see until I went into
> reply mode)....r
>
I think it just shows you shouldn't try to do fancy tricks that rely on
spacing or tabbing in an outdated medium like 7-bit email. One day,
we'll advance to at least the 1990s and see italics, bold, tables and a
few other civilised things.
--
Rob Bannister
Stewart Gordon
<snip>
> I think it just shows you shouldn't try to do fancy tricks that rely
> on spacing or tabbing in an outdated medium like 7-bit email.
It's not a fault of email or even Usenet. It's a fault of certain
programs that try to make sense of it.
> One day, we'll advance to at least the 1990s and see italics, bold,
> tables and a few other civilised things.
Many newsreaders and emailers already let you post in HTML. The only
problem is that it still isn't universal or standard, hence generally a
breach of usenetiquette.
Moreover, attempting to universalise it would make it harder to write a
basic news/email client, by creating a hurdle for people trying to
create a new one from scratch.
rewboss
> Robert Bannister wrote:
> <snip>
> > I think it just shows you shouldn't try to do fancy tricks that rely
> > on spacing or tabbing in an outdated medium like 7-bit email.
>
> It's not a fault of email or even Usenet. It's a fault of certain
> programs that try to make sense of it.
>
> > One day, we'll advance to at least the 1990s and see italics, bold,
> > tables and a few other civilised things.
>
> Many newsreaders and emailers already let you post in HTML. The only
> problem is that it still isn't universal or standard, hence generally a
> breach of usenetiquette.
>
> Moreover, attempting to universalise it would make it harder to write a
> basic news/email client, by creating a hurdle for people trying to
> create a new one from scratch.
Besides which, usenet in HTML would be, like, virus city man.
Robert Bannister
You mean it's not? It's certainly a major help to spammers.
--
Rob Bannister
rewboss
news:c98o2l$qg0$2...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
Put it this way: a plain text message cannot automatically open an
attachment.
Mike Lyle
J. J. Lodder
> A discussion elsewhere on mishy-phens prompted me to check my notes.
> It's been three and a half years since I posted a list of the
> "mishy-phens" that I've saved, so it seems high time to do it again.
>
> I limit the list to genuine line-ending mishy-phens that have been seen
> hyphenated this way in print.
>
> SECTION I. FROM THE 2000 LIST, in alphabetical order.
>
> arse-
> nal
And even dear Britney can be mishy-
phened.
Todays newspaper has her as Britney Spe-
ars,
Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Put it this way: a plain text message cannot automatically open an
> attachment.
Neither can an HTML message. By definition, it has no attachment.
Now if you mean the "multipart" messages that HTML messages are
typically sent as, those can just as easily have text "main" parts.
Oh, and there have been readers that have helpfully decoded messages
that appear to contain uuencoded files in plain text messages. And
"presented" the resulting files.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic
|Transrelational Modes."
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Stewart Gordon
<snip>
> Neither can an HTML message. By definition, it has no attachment.
> Now if you mean the "multipart" messages that HTML messages are
> typically sent as, those can just as easily have text "main" parts.
Neither can JS embedded in an HTML message, in the general case. OK, so
it can 'open' files of certain 'harmless' types. The rest is just bugs
programmed into HTML viewers of various guises.
Admission of viruses is the work of browsers and newsreaders, not of
HTML or the people who (ab)use it.
> Oh, and there have been readers that have helpfully decoded messages
> that appear to contain uuencoded files in plain text messages. And
> "presented" the resulting files.
Do you mean displayed them as text in the message window, or actually
opened them? Regardless of what type they are?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> Oh, and there have been readers that have helpfully decoded
>> messages that appear to contain uuencoded files in plain text
>> messages. And "presented" the resulting files.
>
> Do you mean displayed them as text in the message window, or actually
> opened them? Regardless of what type they are?
I've seen readers that patched together (if necessary), uudecoded, and
displayed images. There's at least one exploit that made use of an
unchecked buffer in the comments field of jpeg files in a widely
distributed library.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I believe there are more instances
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |of the abridgment of the freedom of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the people by gradual and silent
|encroachments of those in power
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |than by violent and sudden
(650)857-7572 |usurpations.
| James Madison
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Eric Schwartz
> Oh, and there have been readers that have helpfully decoded messages
> that appear to contain uuencoded files in plain text messages. And
> "presented" the resulting files.
Not to mention the old trick of embedding escape sequences in
supposedly text-only media that reprogrammed your terminal and could
thereby execute nasty commands like 'rm -rf ~'.
-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> writes:
>> Oh, and there have been readers that have helpfully decoded messages
>> that appear to contain uuencoded files in plain text messages. And
>> "presented" the resulting files.
>
> Not to mention the old trick of embedding escape sequences in
> supposedly text-only media that reprogrammed your terminal and could
> thereby execute nasty commands like 'rm -rf ~'.
Ah, yes. How could I forget? Program a softkey, then simulate a
press of the softkey. Then there was the exploit by which you could
get many emacs-based mailreaders and newsreaders to execute arbitrary
code (with the user's privileges).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most
|punctilious compliance with the
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do
(650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking
|well.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger
Oliver Cromm
> In article <MPG.1e80c82e8...@news.ntlworld.com>,
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Nate Branscom <the_n...@hotmail.com> had it:
>
>>> Are there enough wild rhinos in the UK to warrant the use of caution
>>> signs?
>>
>>It's not a rhino, it's a sheep which somebody has doctored with a
>>black marker pen.
>
> There was a similar elephant somewhere in the Yorkshire dales
> some years ago.
Well I did stop quite suddenly when, fortunately on my bicycle, one fine
cold day in Germany, I crossed a bridge and habitually checked the water
level of the river to the left, noticing a grazing elephant, and to the
right, and, whaat????
A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
--
Oliver C.
45n31, 73w34
Temperature: -4.3°C (Wind chill: -11) (17 March 2006 5:00 PM EST)
Wood Avens
<lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote:
>* dcw wrote:
>
>> In article <MPG.1e80c82e8...@news.ntlworld.com>,
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Nate Branscom <the_n...@hotmail.com> had it:
>>
>>>> Are there enough wild rhinos in the UK to warrant the use of caution
>>>> signs?
>>>
>>>It's not a rhino, it's a sheep which somebody has doctored with a
>>>black marker pen.
>>
>> There was a similar elephant somewhere in the Yorkshire dales
>> some years ago.
>
>Well I did stop quite suddenly when, fortunately on my bicycle, one fine
>cold day in Germany, I crossed a bridge and habitually checked the water
>level of the river to the left, noticing a grazing elephant, and to the
>right, and, whaat????
>
>A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
Of course the Omrud was having you on. I have to admit I didn't know
they were common in Scotland, but there's by now a sizeable herd of
what are popularly called "urban rhinos" in and around Surrey.
Apparently some rhinos escaped from the Windsor safari park some time
in the 1960s; the story goes that the original pair were a coronation
present to the present Queen, but I think it's been established that
that's an urban myth. Anyway, they spread, first in Windsor Great
Park and then into other semi-wild areas such as Richmond Common, and
in due course into some of the very large gardens belonging to the
up-market houses round that way. The baby rhinos are very cute, and
it seems that people unwisely started feeding them, so in some
districts they've supplanted the urban foxes which are resident in
most UK suburbs. In some places they're a real nuisance, and they're
partly responsible for the rise in "gated communities", small housing
enclaves with high railings and gates which rhinos can't get through.
Around my daughter's area (Weybridge, in Surrey) the rhinos have also
led to a massive increase in four-wheel-drive vehicles: run into a
rhino and there's not much left of yer average saloon car. Hence the
signs, of course.
Interesting, by the way, that it's Surrey again, like the Surrey puma
and the flocks of parakeets.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
the Omrud
> Interesting, by the way, that it's Surrey again, like the Surrey puma
> and the flocks of parakeets.
Damn. I thought you said "flocks of paracletes". I'd go to Surrey
to see that.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
R H Draney
>
>> There was a similar elephant somewhere in the Yorkshire dales
>> some years ago.
ObSomethingOrOther: to the population at large, are not all elephants
similar?...r
--
http://NewsGuy.com/overview.htm 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Graeme Thomas
<usenet...@gmail.com> writes
>Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> had it:
>
>> Interesting, by the way, that it's Surrey again, like the Surrey puma
>> and the flocks of parakeets.
>
>Damn. I thought you said "flocks of paracletes". I'd go to Surrey
>to see that.
Don't be silly. Paracletes are solitary critters.
--
Graeme Thomas
Father Ignatius
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> typed:
>> * dcw wrote:
>>
>>> There was a similar elephant somewhere in the Yorkshire dales
>>> some years ago.
>
> ObSomethingOrOther: to the population at large, are not all elephants
> similar?...r
No. They are remarkably individual, and sighting a similar one is indeed
worthy of remarque.
--
Nat
"...too selfish to be codependent." --Cynthia Heimel
Father Ignatius
Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> typed:
> they were common in Scotland, but there's by now a sizeable herd of
> what are popularly called "urban rhinos" in and around Surrey.
> most UK suburbs. In some places they're a real nuisance, and they're
> partly responsible for the rise in "gated communities", small housing
> enclaves with high railings and gates which rhinos can't get through.
I am surprised to hear this, having seen that these creatures (and, of
course, elephants) can get through quite remarkably substantial fencing that
was ostensibly designed to be proof against them. Perhaps it is a question
of motivation, for they usually only bother to put in the fence-stomping
effort when it gets them to the ripe fruit of the marula tree on the other
side. What happens then is quite droll, for the fruit ferments in their
vat-sized stomachs, and monster drunks and hangovers result. So my advice
to the gated communities of Surrey is to be damned careful about cultivating
fruit trees within. I understand that tea shoppes are a key industry in
Surrey, and I don't even want to think of a drunken rhino in a tea shoppe:
it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that their insurance dint cover it.
Note the shattered fence in the background at
http://www.bycarmen.com.br/amarula.jpg
the Omrud
Well, quite. Which is why I'd be prepared to go as far as Surrey to
see a whole flock.
Richard Bollard
<lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote:
>* dcw wrote:
>
>> In article <MPG.1e80c82e8...@news.ntlworld.com>,
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Nate Branscom <the_n...@hotmail.com> had it:
>>
>>>> Are there enough wild rhinos in the UK to warrant the use of caution
>>>> signs?
>>>
>>>It's not a rhino, it's a sheep which somebody has doctored with a
>>>black marker pen.
>>
>> There was a similar elephant somewhere in the Yorkshire dales
>> some years ago.
>
>Well I did stop quite suddenly when, fortunately on my bicycle, one fine
>cold day in Germany, I crossed a bridge and habitually checked the water
>level of the river to the left, noticing a grazing elephant, and to the
>right, and, whaat????
>
>A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
Whereas the other circus guys made do with eating toast and vegemite.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Wood Avens
<FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>I understand that tea shoppes are a key industry in
>Surrey, and I don't even want to think of a drunken rhino in a tea shoppe:
>it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that their insurance dint cover it.
I'm fairly sure that most of the rhinos haven't taken out any
insurance at all.
R H Draney
>
>On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:12:36 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
><FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>
>>I understand that tea shoppes are a key industry in
>>Surrey, and I don't even want to think of a drunken rhino in a tea shoppe:
>>it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that their insurance dint cover it.
>
>I'm fairly sure that most of the rhinos haven't taken out any
>insurance at all.
Damned irresponsible creatures, rhinos....r
--
This is *my* .sig file.
MINE!
You can't use it to advertise unless I say it's okay.
Mike Lyle
> Wood Avens filted:
>>
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:12:36 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
>> <FatherI...@ANTISPAMananzi.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand that tea shoppes are a key industry in
>>> Surrey, and I don't even want to think of a drunken rhino in a tea
>>> shoppe: it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that their
>>> insurance dint cover it.
>>
>> I'm fairly sure that most of the rhinos haven't taken out any
>> insurance at all.
>
> Damned irresponsible creatures, rhinos....r
It's not their fault. Lloyds of London have for some time now been
refusing to underwrite policies taken out by any animal on the Red List,
so the brokers won't touch them.
--
Mike.
Oliver Cromm
So what? Is it a sin to be hungry?? Even very hungry???
Damned vegemitarians, always quick at condemning people.
--
Oliver C.
45n31, 73w34
Temperature: 2.7°C (22 March 2006 1:00 PM EST)
Oliver Cromm
> R H Draney wrote:
>> Wood Avens filted:
>>>
>>> I'm fairly sure that most of the rhinos haven't taken out any
>>> insurance at all.
>>
>> Damned irresponsible creatures, rhinos....r
>
> It's not their fault. Lloyds of London have for some time now been
> refusing to underwrite policies taken out by any animal on the Red List,
> so the brokers won't touch them.
i wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.
Especially not round the eyes.
--
Oliver C.
45n31, 73w34
Peter Moylan
> * Richard Bollard wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:48:14 -0500, Oliver Cromm
>> <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote:
>>> A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
>> Whereas the other circus guys made do with eating toast and vegemite.
>
> So what? Is it a sin to be hungry?? Even very hungry???
"She is only a poor little mill-girl ..."
> Damned vegemitarians, always quick at condemning people.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists.
My e-mail addresses at newcastle.edu.au will probably remain "live"
for a while, but then they will disappear without warning.
The optusnet address still has about 5 months of life left.
Richard Bollard
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> wrote:
>Oliver Cromm wrote:
>> * Richard Bollard wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:48:14 -0500, Oliver Cromm
>>> <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
>>> Whereas the other circus guys made do with eating toast and vegemite.
>>
>> So what? Is it a sin to be hungry?? Even very hungry???
>
> "She is only a poor little mill-girl ..."
>
She was only an elephant walker, but ...
(anyone?)
Father Ignatius
Richard Bollard <rich...@spamt.edu.au> typed:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:53:47 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> wrote:
>
>> Oliver Cromm wrote:
>>> * Richard Bollard wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:48:14 -0500, Oliver Cromm
>>>> <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>>> A circus guy had lead his elephant to the river for breakfast.
>>>> Whereas the other circus guys made do with eating toast and
>>>> vegemite.
>>>
>>> So what? Is it a sin to be hungry?? Even very hungry???
>>
>> "She is only a poor little mill-girl ..."
>>
> She was only an elephant walker, but ...
>
> (anyone?)
... she knew to hold on by the ears.
--
Nat
"But even though they probably certainly know that you probably
wouldn't, they don't certainly know that although you probably
wouldn't there's no probability that you certainly would." -- Sir
Humphrey Appleby ("Yes, Prime Minister") on nuclear deterrence
Patricia Pasterham
What department are you in? I've got a friend who lectures in Pol Sci.
P.
--
"If we are not meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?"
take your wig off to reply direct
Linz
> Hi Richard,
> What department are you in? I've got a friend who lectures in Pol
> Sci. P.
Who are you talking to?
Have you considered using email?
Vinny Burgoo
>* Mike Lyle wrote:
>> R H Draney wrote:
>>> Wood Avens filted:
>>>> I'm fairly sure that most of the rhinos haven't taken out any
>>>> insurance at all.
>>>
>>> Damned irresponsible creatures, rhinos....r
>>
>> It's not their fault. Lloyds of London have for some time now been
>> refusing to underwrite policies taken out by any animal on the Red List,
>> so the brokers won't touch them.
>
>i wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.
>Especially not round the eyes.
Derek Finch Hatton once crept (=AmE: 'tippy-toed') up to a sleeping
rhino and affixed two postage stamps to its buttocks.
There's not a lot of people knows that. (I bet Robert Redford didn't.)
--
V
Mike Lyle
_Two_ postage stamps? That begins to sound like showing off. In the
good old days, of course, the rhino would actually have been delivered
-- these days, they just wouldn't have the right size of red rubber
band. Is it the Ndebele whose male rite of passage requires the
candidate to sneak up to a rhino and balance a small stone on its
haunch? When I saw that, I thought rather more kindly of those dim
distant confirmation classes. When I was teaching, a student turned up
at an end of term party wearing a rather fetching lion-skin bow tie: it
came from the lion he'd had to kill in order to become a grown-up. This
was in Reading. The party, I mean: a mad bloke had a pet lion over the
river in Caversham, but I don't recall that it was ever speared in an
initiation ceremony.
--
Mike.
Vinny Burgoo
>Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>> Derek Finch Hatton once crept (=AmE: 'tippy-toed') up to a sleeping
>> rhino and affixed two postage stamps to its buttocks.
>_Two_ postage stamps? That begins to sound like showing off. In the
>good old days, of course, the rhino would actually have been delivered
>-- these days, they just wouldn't have the right size of red rubber
>band.
I think it was delivered a few minutes later by a German princeling.
(Finch Hatton had taken him out hunting and was trying to impress him.)
>Is it the Ndebele whose male rite of passage requires the
>candidate to sneak up to a rhino and balance a small stone on its
>haunch? When I saw that, I thought rather more kindly of those dim
>distant confirmation classes. When I was teaching, a student turned up
>at an end of term party wearing a rather fetching lion-skin bow tie: it
>came from the lion he'd had to kill in order to become a grown-up. This
>was in Reading. The party, I mean: a mad bloke had a pet lion over the
>river in Caversham, but I don't recall that it was ever speared in an
>initiation ceremony.
Be glad he wasn't an Omo. An Omo boy must kill a human enemy to become a
man, which status is marked by the wearing of the enemy's scrotum. (I
think it is hung from a special belt at a bar mitzvah ceremony but, I
now realise, I can't check this because my Newbies [Newbys? Newby-ies?]
were among the scores, and perhaps hundreds, of books that mysteriously
disappeared a few years ago. Bugger!)
--
V
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Be glad he wasn't an Omo. An Omo boy must kill a human enemy to
> become a man, which status is marked by the wearing of the enemy's
> scrotum. (I think it is hung from a special belt at a bar mitzvah
> ceremony but, I now realise, I can't check this because my Newbies
> [Newbys? Newby-ies?] were among the scores, and perhaps hundreds, of
> books that mysteriously disappeared a few years ago. Bugger!)
Positively Thesigerian. The Danakil used to do the same sort of thing, I
believe.
--
Mike.
Father Ignatius
Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> typed:
This seems to argue a constant population with a constantly increasing
female proportion.
--
Nat
"...a light scattering of snarky pedants, and a great many helpful
people who occasionally descend into jackassery, a couple of saints,
and a few wingnuts." --Stephen Calder
Mike Lyle
> In news:49qciiF...@individual.net,
> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> typed:
>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Be glad he wasn't an Omo. An Omo boy must kill a human enemy to
>>> become a man, which status is marked by the wearing of the enemy's
>>> scrotum. (I think it is hung from a special belt at a bar mitzvah
>>> ceremony but, I now realise, I can't check this because my Newbies
>>> [Newbys? Newby-ies?] were among the scores, and perhaps hundreds, of
>>> books that mysteriously disappeared a few years ago. Bugger!)
>>
>> Positively Thesigerian. The Danakil used to do the same sort of
>> thing, I believe.
>
> This seems to argue a constant population with a constantly increasing
> female proportion.
Among the target tribes or clans, perhaps: victims were not selected
from the perpetrating group.
--
Mike.
Peter Moylan
> In news:49qciiF...@individual.net,
> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> typed:
>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Be glad he wasn't an Omo. An Omo boy must kill a human enemy to
>>> become a man, which status is marked by the wearing of the enemy's
>>> scrotum. (I think it is hung from a special belt at a bar mitzvah
>>> ceremony but, I now realise, I can't check this because my Newbies
>>> [Newbys? Newby-ies?] were among the scores, and perhaps hundreds, of
>>> books that mysteriously disappeared a few years ago. Bugger!)
>> Positively Thesigerian. The Danakil used to do the same sort of
>> thing, I believe.
>
> This seems to argue a constant population with a constantly increasing
> female proportion.
That's why each man needs two scrota.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 4 months of life left.
Vinny Burgoo
>Vinny Burgoo wrote:
I'm gonn awash the man right out of that boy?
Er, no.
How about: 'Tis afar far better thing that I cut off today than I cut
off yesterday.
(Another book that went missing was a collection of mesmerisingly
beautiful aerial photographs of that region.)
--
V
Mike Lyle
> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>
>>> Be glad he wasn't an Omo. An Omo boy must kill a human enemy to
>>> become a man, which status is marked by the wearing of the enemy's
>>> scrotum. (I think it is hung from a special belt at a bar mitzvah
>>> ceremony but, I now realise, I can't check this because my Newbies
>>> [Newbys? Newby-ies?] were among the scores, and perhaps hundreds, of
>>> books that mysteriously disappeared a few years ago. Bugger!)
>>
>> Positively Thesigerian. The Danakil used to do the same sort of
>> thing, I believe.
>
> I'm gonn awash the man right out of that boy?
>
> Er, no.
>
> How about: 'Tis afar far better thing that I cut off today than I cut
> off yesterday.
In the search for a nuer range of puns, ObCh****aw, that's why the
instrument is called a scalpel.
>
> (Another book that went missing was a collection of mesmerisingly
> beautiful aerial photographs of that region.)
I think I've seen it (didn't have your name in, though). Yes,
mesmerising.
--
Mike.
Vinny Burgoo
>In the search for a nuer range of puns, ObCh****aw, that's why the
>instrument is called a scalpel.
I'd scarify that if I were you, mate. You're on the wrong semita.
--
V