Ravel / unravel: Ozzies wrong, Yankees right...

[fabzorba]

Ravel / Unravel…The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins that
select company of verbs where the opposite has the same meaning.

I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as Shakespeare
had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper term, and that "ravel"
is a typical Yankee example of slovenly laziness. See this Column 8
(2nd item) from a recent Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html

Ozzies don’t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan
English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they insist
are better English. My earlier comments of the much-despised - by
ozzies – term "tomato ketchup" is an example I have considered
earlier.

Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?

I imagine if unravel is used to mean the natural entropy of a knitted
fabric, then its opposite, "ravel" should be a rare word which refers
to the spontaneous breaching of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that
is, where a worn sleeve reknits itself.

myles [could "unwash" refer to getting clothes dirty again?] paulsen

[navi]

"Ravel" was also the name of a French composer.

Would the Second Law of Thermodynamics really be breached if a worn sleeve reknitted itself? Is that considered impossible by the Second Law of Thermodynamics or simply highly improbable?

I'd say "unwash" could definitely not refer to getting clothes dirty for the first time. And there is always a first time.

Na (trying to figure out why some people enjoy making irrelevant posts) vi.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-05-15 12:21:53 +0200, navi <lorc...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> Would the Second Law of Thermodynamics really be breached if a worn sleeve
> reknitted itself? Is that considered impossible by the Second Law of Thermo
> dynamics or simply highly improbable?

You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist. Things that are
forbidden by the second law are the same as things that are so highly
improbable that they can be regarded as impossible. (By contrast,
things that are forbidden by the first law are indeed impossible.)



--
athel

[navi]

Thank you Athel.

You do have a point. Still, when I read your answer I see that you acknowledge that there is a distinction You write:
By contrast, things that are forbidden by the first law are indeed impossible.

I should have said "extremely improbable", or better yet, "almost impossible" instead of "highly improbably". My apologies to you.

But consider the CONTEXT... THE CONTEXT... THE CONTEXT... Je voulais taquiner l'autre et toi, tu t'es ennerve! As the French say.


Na (just because you have a point doesn't mean you don't have a boiling point) vi.

[annily]

On 15.05.12 19:31, fabzorba wrote:
> Ravel / Unravel…The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins that
> select company of verbs where the opposite has the same meaning.
>
> I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as Shakespeare
> had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
> Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper term, and that "ravel"
> is a typical Yankee example of slovenly laziness. See this Column 8
> (2nd item) from a recent Sydney Morning Herald:
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html
>
> Ozzies don’t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan
> English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they insist
> are better English. My earlier comments of the much-despised - by
> ozzies – term "tomato ketchup" is an example I have considered
> earlier.
>
> Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?
>

I didn't know that Americans still use "ravel" in the Shakespearean
sense. I've always used "unravel".

[Cheryl]

I would speak of a ravelled sleeve, or say a particular fabric ravels
easily. The 'a' is pronounced kind of oddly, almost like 'revel'.

However, a local friend I just asked always uses 'unravelled'.
--
Cheryl

[R H Draney]

Cheryl filted:

I use "ravel" in the Shakespearean sense, but that's because I used to program
in APL....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Jerry Friedman]

You need to get into COCA.

unravel: 1200
ravel: 271

I glanced through about 100 hits on "ravel", and all the ones I
noticed were about some French composer, except a typo for "travel"
and the following gem (in which I assume "dunking" should be
"thinking"):

"He had indulged these thoughts dunking they did not matter, thinking
the nature of marriage was *to unravel only to ravel again* with the
right reconstituting gesture or word. He had not imagined his wife -
she with the shining, sentimental gaze - capable of raising the
subject of divorce."

Emphasis added.

Rachel Kadish, "Love Story", /The New England Review/, 2007.

To get rid of Maurice, I tried

raveled: 33 (including 6 Shakespeare quotations)
ravelled: 2 (one from Shakespeare)

unraveled: 304
unravelled: 41

I think it's safe to say that when not quoting Shakespeare, the great
majority of Americans say "unravel".

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Silverton]

On 5/15/2012 1:23 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On May 15, 11:08 am, R H Draney<dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Cheryl filted:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2012-05-15 10:32 AM, annily wrote:
>>>> On 15.05.12 19:31, fabzorba wrote:
>>
>>>>> Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?
>>
>>>> I didn't know that Americans still use "ravel" in the Shakespearean
>>>> sense. I've always used "unravel".
>>
>>> I would speak of a ravelled sleeve, or say a particular fabric ravels
>>> easily. The 'a' is pronounced kind of oddly, almost like 'revel'.
>>
>>> However, a local friend I just asked always uses 'unravelled'.
>>
>> I use "ravel" in the Shakespearean sense, but that's because I used to program
>> in APL....r
>
> You need to get into COCA.
>
> unravel: 1200
> ravel: 271
>
> I glanced through about 100 hits on "ravel", and all the ones I
> noticed were about some French composer, except a typo for "travel"
> and the following gem (in which I assume "dunking" should be
> "thinking"):
>

Surely "Ravel" deserves better than "some composer"?


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 15, 11:33 am, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net>
wrote:

> On 5/15/2012 1:23 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[COCA]

> > I glanced through about 100 hits on "ravel", and all the ones I
> > noticed were about some French composer, except

...

> Surely "Ravel" deserves better than "some composer"?

I was just feeling irreverent.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Charles Bishop]

In article
<b7ebcd0a-2a69-4234...@vi6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ravel / Unravel=85The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins that

>select company of verbs where the opposite has the same meaning.
>
>I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as Shakespeare
>had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
>Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper term, and that "ravel"
>is a typical Yankee example of slovenly laziness. See this Column 8
>(2nd item) from a recent Sydney Morning Herald:
>http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html
>

>Ozzies don=92t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan

>English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they insist
>are better English. My earlier comments of the much-despised - by

>ozzies =96 term "tomato ketchup" is an example I have considered

>earlier.
>
>Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?
>
>I imagine if unravel is used to mean the natural entropy of a knitted
>fabric, then its opposite, "ravel" should be a rare word which refers
>to the spontaneous breaching of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that
>is, where a worn sleeve reknits itself.

Would it be a breaching of the 2nd Law, though? As I recall, the 2nd Law
doesn't prohibit individual areas of the universe from such behavior, it
only says that over time, the universe tends towards disorder.

Certainly we've never seen such behavior, but that's not due to the 2nd law.

>
>myles [could "unwash" refer to getting clothes dirty again?] paulsen

charles, when I was unwashed, it was because I got dirty again, bishop

[Donna Richoux]

I'm with you -- "ravel" is what woven cloth does, by itself, when a cut
edge is exposed. It frays, it ravels. I would use "unravel" to apply to
a deliberate human activity, disentangling a mess of string or undoing
some knitting. But I wouldn't be astonished to hear it used differently.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Peter Moylan]

Or irravelent.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Richard Bollard]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 03:21:53 -0700 (PDT), navi <lorc...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:01:34 AM UTC-7, fabzorba wrote:
>> Ravel / Unravel…The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins that
>> select company of verbs where the opposite has the same meaning.
>>
>> I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as Shakespeare
>> had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
>> Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper term, and that "ravel"
>> is a typical Yankee example of slovenly laziness. See this Column 8
>> (2nd item) from a recent Sydney Morning Herald:
>> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html
>>
>> Ozzies don’t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan
>> English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they insist
>> are better English. My earlier comments of the much-despised - by
>> ozzies – term "tomato ketchup" is an example I have considered
>> earlier.
>>
>> Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?
>>
>> I imagine if unravel is used to mean the natural entropy of a knitted
>> fabric, then its opposite, "ravel" should be a rare word which refers
>> to the spontaneous breaching of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that
>> is, where a worn sleeve reknits itself.
>>
>> myles [could "unwash" refer to getting clothes dirty again?] paulsen
>
>"Ravel" was also the name of a French composer.

Who fixed up the sleeve of a bolero jacket.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

[fabzorba]

On May 15, 10:09 pm, navi <lorca1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:31:30 AM UTC-7, athel...@yahoo wrote:

> > On 2012-05-15 12:21:53 +0200, navi <lorca1...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > > Would the Second Law of Thermodynamics really be breached if a worn sleeve
> > > reknitted itself? Is that considered impossible by the Second Law of Thermo
> > > dynamics or simply highly improbable?
>
> > You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist. Things that are
> > forbidden by the second law are the same as things that are so highly
> > improbable that they can be regarded as impossible. (By contrast,
> > things that are forbidden by the first law are indeed impossible.)
>
>

> You do have a point. Still, when I read your answer I see that you acknowledge that there is a distinction You write:
> By contrast,  things that are forbidden by the first law are indeed impossible.
>
> I should have said "extremely improbable", or better yet, "almost impossible" instead of "highly improbably". My apologies to you.
>
> But consider the CONTEXT... THE CONTEXT... THE CONTEXT... Je voulais taquiner l'autre et toi, tu t'es ennerve! As the French say.
>

> Na (just because you have a point doesn't mean you don't have a boiling point) vi.-

Hey, I like your new sig.file navi...where did you get the idea for
that? Hope to see more of it. It's just that little nugget at the end,
which makes a post just that much more scrumptious. I would compare it
to the last page of your fave mag. One where there is some special
cartoon or quiz you can look forward to, and not just a page of ads.

Some brief points:

Of course there are POSSIBLE events which are so improbable, we would
never see then occur in the lifetime of this universe, like a monkey
typing up Shakespeare. But philosophy, and modern physics, gives some
credence to the idea of multiverses, in which EVERYTHING that is
possible will occur in some branch of existence. If such a state of
affairs does in fact hold, then yes, people jumping backwards from the
water onto diving boards will occur. In a thought experiment of mine,
discussed in Wikipedia, I myself cannot die, coz the version of myself
that lives on will be favoured while the one where I do not will be
discarded. I call it Schrodinger's Friend, after the cat. In this
scenario, I always survive the famous experiment, no matter how often
it is done.

Back to ravel / unravel. After thinking it over, I now think that
general usage is taking the line same as with "peel / unpeel". You
might well say, "I am unpeeling this orange, and when it is peeled,
you may have a slice." So here, the "un-" prefix denotes a verb, and
disappears when the action is finished, leaving only the gerund (if
that is a gerund...)

The name Ravel comes from Raphael and means "healing God". "Ravioli"
is not the female version of Ravel, and probably comes from turnip.

myles (looks like a turnip, but hopes to be healed by God) paulsen

[Harrison Hill]

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:01:34 AM UTC+1, fabzorba wrote:
> Ravel / Unravel…The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins that
> select company of verbs where the opposite has the same meaning.
>
> I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as Shakespeare
> had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care.
> Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper term, and that "ravel"
> is a typical Yankee example of slovenly laziness. See this Column 8
> (2nd item) from a recent Sydney Morning Herald:
> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html
>
> Ozzies don’t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan
> English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they insist
> are better English. My earlier comments of the much-despised - by
> ozzies – term "tomato ketchup" is an example I have considered
> earlier.
>
> Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?

I'm sure we use "ravel" in London with the same meaning that Donna has ascribed to it downthread. Similarly "pip" "unpip" for apples, "stone" "unstone" for plums, "seed" "unseed" for grapes, and then "pick" "unpick" in the ravelling sense.

My favourite phrase is "draw the curtains" which is its own antonym - it means the opposite of whatever it meant last time.

[R H Draney]

Harrison Hill filted:
>
>=20
>I'm sure we use "ravel" in London with the same meaning that Donna has ascr=
>ibed to it downthread. Similarly "pip" "unpip" for apples, "stone" "unstone=
>" for plums, "seed" "unseed" for grapes, and then "pick" "unpick" in the ra=
>velling sense.
>=20
>My favourite phrase is "draw the curtains" which is its own antonym - it me=

>ans the opposite of whatever it meant last time.

On your way out the door, be sure to flip the switch....r

[Robert Bannister]

On 19/05/12 5:04 PM, Harrison Hill wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:01:34 AM UTC+1, fabzorba wrote:

>> Ravel / Unravel�The antonyms are also synonyms, so "ravel" joins

>> that select company of verbs where the opposite has the same
>> meaning.
>>
>> I read that Americans STILL use the original "ravel as
>> Shakespeare had it in Macbeth: Sleep that knits up the ravelled
>> sleeve of care. Some Aussies assume that unravel is the proper
>> term, and that "ravel" is a typical Yankee example of slovenly
>> laziness. See this Column 8 (2nd item) from a recent Sydney
>> Morning Herald:
>> http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/column-8/column-8-20120506-1y6x0.html
>>
>>
>>

Ozzies don�t realize that Yankee terms are often ones from Elizabethan

>> English, and have a better pedigree than the terms which they
>> insist are better English. My earlier comments of the

>> much-despised - by ozzies � term "tomato ketchup" is an example I

>> have considered earlier.
>>
>> Which form of ravel / unravel do YOU use in your NOTW?
>
> I'm sure we use "ravel" in London with the same meaning that Donna
> has ascribed to it downthread. Similarly "pip" "unpip" for apples,
> "stone" "unstone" for plums, "seed" "unseed" for grapes, and then
> "pick" "unpick" in the ravelling sense.

I have never come across "unpip, unstone" or "unseed" - they would all
have the prefix "de-" in my English.

>
> My favourite phrase is "draw the curtains" which is its own antonym -
> it means the opposite of whatever it meant last time.

Because "draw" really means no more than "pull", but it always amuses me
too, especially when the curtains are already in a half-drawn position
so you don't know whether you are to open or close them.

--
Robert Bannister

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

A cartoon in an old Playboy shows a woman falling out of her formal dress, with
a leering older man standing behind her...the caption says something along the
lines of "I meant I wanted you to help zip me UP!"...r