Subjunctive or Indicative?

[Marius Hancu]

Hello:

Would you say that the part:

"if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child
training, children would develop into better happier and kinder
adults"

(at the end of the enclosed quotation) is in the subjunctive mood or in
the indicative?

-------------
Eight-year-old Jimmy comes to school and on his face is the clear mark
of a hand.

"Where did you get that mark, Jimmy?" asks his teacher.
"My mom hit me," answers Jimmy.

Sixty years ago, the teacher might well have replied, "I'll bet you
deserved it." Today, by law, in every state of America, the teacher
must report such an incident to local child-abuse authorities. At the
heart of the revolution in child raising is the fact that the more
severe forms of punishment, such as hard slaps across the face, are
now considered unacceptable. Parents and psychologists got the idea
that if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child
training, children would develop into better happier and kinder
adults.
-------------

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

[cybercypher]

Marius Hancu <NOS...@videotron.ca> wrote

Subjunctive. It's wishful thinking, as indicated by "Parents and
psychologists got the idea that".

For it to be indicative, it would have to be something like "if we
remove real fear and harsh punishment from child training, children
will develop into better happier and kinder adults".

[Don Phillipson]

"Marius Hancu" <NOS...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:RMDZi.5$kL1...@weber.videotron.net...

> Would you say that the part:
>
> "if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child
> training, children would develop into better happier and kinder
> adults"
>
> (at the end of the enclosed quotation) is in the subjunctive mood or in
> the indicative?

1. The orthodox (grammarian's) answer to this question
is that the subordinate clause's verb is in the subjunctive mood
and the main verb is in the indicative mood (conditional tense.)

2. The modern approach is that "moods" are bogus and
both verbs in this sentence are of conditional style (and
past tense.)

> . . . Today, by law, in every state of America, the teacher

> must report such an incident to local child-abuse authorities. At the
> heart of the revolution in child raising is the fact that the more
> severe forms of punishment, such as hard slaps across the face, are
> now considered unacceptable. Parents and psychologists got the idea
> that if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child
> training, children would develop into better happier and kinder
> adults.

If true, this para. would imply that parents' and psychologists'
revised conclusions were translated into US criminal law
(50 times over, in each of the 50 separate state legislatures)
without careful consideration by the legislators. This is not
impossible but seems unlikely.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[jinhyun]

Good one! From the context, I'd say 'the subjunctive', but
grammatically, it could be either.

[jinhyun]

> grammatically, it could be either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually, if it were the indicative, it would probably be better as
'Parents and psychologists got the idea
that if real fear and harsh punishment *are* removed from child
training, children would develop into better, happier and kinder
adults.' But the version you post is still sound enough as a sentence
in the indicative.

[Marius Hancu]

On Nov 11, 9:24 am, cybercypher <cybercyphe...@aol.com> wrote:

> > Parents
> > and psychologists got the idea that if real fear and harsh
> > punishment were removed from child training, children would
> > develop into better happier and kinder adults.
>
> Subjunctive. It's wishful thinking, as indicated by "Parents and
> psychologists got the idea that".
>
> For it to be indicative, it would have to be something like "if we
> remove real fear and harsh punishment from child training, children
> will develop into better happier and kinder adults".

That was my take too.

Thanks, everybody.

Marius Hancu