"It" vs "It's"
Perchprism
>From: lor...@geocities.com (Judy Lorton)
>Date: 9/22/00 8:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ZFIy5.4638$%f1.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net>
>
>Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either is correct
>
>in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that . . . . "
Argument with hubby, eh?
It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't already have
"it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase is the kind of thing that a
screenwriter might put in the mouth of a foreign spy posing as an American so
the hero can shoot him.
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Michael Cargal
Both "I think it's fair to say" and "I think it fair to say" are
correct. The latter can be thought of as a shortening of "I think it
to be fair to say."
--
Michael Cargal mhca...@home.com
Donna Richoux
> >From: lor...@geocities.com (Judy Lorton)
> >
> >Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either is correct
> >
> >in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that . . . . "
>
> Argument with hubby, eh?
>
> It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't already
> have "it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase is the kind of
> thing that a screenwriter might put in the mouth of a foreign spy posing
> as an American so the hero can shoot him.
It grieves me, Perch, to hear you don't recognize ""I think it only
fair..." I certainly recognize it and I think I use it. Altameter turns
up only 300 uses, compared to 700 of "I think it's only fair," but still
that's not a bad ratio.
I think it has something to do with [looks around, whispers]
subjunctive.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article <d5gnsss825glfpc3n...@4ax.com>, Michael
Cargal <mhca...@home.com> wrote:
>On 22 Sep 2000 18:57:32 GMT, perch...@aol.com (Perchprism) wrote:
>
>>Judy wrote:
>>>From: lor...@geocities.com (Judy Lorton)
>>>Date: 9/22/00 8:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <ZFIy5.4638$%f1.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either is
>correct
>>>
>>>in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that . . . . "
>>
>>Argument with hubby, eh?
>>
>>It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't already
>have
>>"it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase is the kind of thing
>that a
>>screenwriter might put in the mouth of a foreign spy posing as an
>American so
>>the hero can shoot him.
Nonsense. The "it" version may be a little more formal, but both
are perfectly idiomatic in American English.
>
>Both "I think it's fair to say" and "I think it fair to say" are
>correct. The latter can be thought of as a shortening of "I think it
>to be fair to say."
And the former can be thought of as a shortening of "I think that
it is fair to say".
Perchprism
>From: tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
>Date: 9/22/00 6:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1ehduio.fb175c2jpzvmN%tr...@euronet.nl>
>correct
>> >
>> >in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that . . . . "
>>
>> Argument with hubby, eh?
>>
>> It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't already
>> have "it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase is the kind of
>> thing that a screenwriter might put in the mouth of a foreign spy posing
>> as an American so the hero can shoot him.
>
>fair..." I certainly recognize it and I think I use it. Altameter turns
>up only 300 uses, compared to 700 of "I think it's only fair," but still
>that's not a bad ratio.
I was shooting off a straight answer for an casual inquirer. I expected to be
stabbed with other viewpoints, so no hard feelings.
>I think it has something to do with [looks around, whispers]
>subjunctive.
I heard that, but we're off the hook. I think it has to do with an alternate
definition of "think."
Alex Chernavsky
>It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't
>already have "it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase
>is the kind of thing that a screenwriter might put in the mouth
>of a foreign spy posing as an American so the hero can shoot
>him.
Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
>Nonsense. The "it" version may be a little more formal,
>but both are perfectly idiomatic in American English.
Hmmm, I have to go with Perchprism on this one. I would definitely do a
double-take if I heard someone say, "I think it fair...".
--
Alex Chernavsky
(Western New York State)
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Robert Lieblich
>
> I (Alex Chernavsky) wrote:
>
> >I would definitely do a double-take if I
> >heard someone say, "I think it fair...".
>
>
> >I sense you have another thingk coming. You've heard it.
> >
> >Really, isn't that what's happening here? People are not
> >realizing what other people are saying?
>
> I'm not realizing what you're saying. What makes you say that I've heard
> the expression? If this has come up before on aue, then I don't remember
> it.
I don't recall the topic, but I'd wager that examples of the locution
("I think it fair"[1]) can be found in the archives of AUE. And because
most participants (me included) find nothing at all unusual about it, it
passes without comment. Donna is suggesting that perhaps you, Alex,
like many another regular, have seen "I think it clear" go by and, like
many another regular, said nothing. Or perhaps you hear it and think
you're hearing "I think it's clear," with the same result. Certainly,
to build in Donna's example, it never occurred to me that anyone could
say something like "If you think that, you've got another thinG coming."
But when we actually addressed the question, many of us learned
otherwise.
Lots of illusions get shed in this forum. "I think it fair" is standard
English, US and US both, and probably everywhere else.
[1] Although this is the example we're using, there are many variants
-- "I find it strange," "I believe it correct," I consider it likely".
I suspect that some of these sound more natural than others. Would "I
think it only fair . . . " alter your position.
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article <8qh3ja$g64$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, squid...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>
>Let's consider these sentences:
> He called the kettle black.
> I think it only fair.
>
>What is the part of speech for <black> and <fair>? On first thought,
>they seem like adjectives, but, the more I look at it, I want to call
>them direct objects (and <kettle> and <it> are indirect objects).
>
That would only be right if he called the kettle a cab.
Steve Emerson
>
> It grieves me, Perch, to hear you don't recognize ""I think it only
> fair..." I certainly recognize it and I think I use it. Altameter turns
> up only 300 uses, compared to 700 of "I think it's only fair," but still
> that's not a bad ratio.
>
> subjunctive.
Why doesn't it ("I think it fair...") have to do with factitive verbs?
Same as "I consider him intelligent." FWIW, I too have heard the usage
numerous times from literate people and would use it myself if it didn't
feel slightly stilted.
SE.
Donna Richoux
> Perchprism wrote:
>
> >It's "it's." "It" would be perfectly good English if we didn't
> >already have "it's" burned into our idiom. "It" in that phrase
> >is the kind of thing that a screenwriter might put in the mouth
> >of a foreign spy posing as an American so the hero can shoot
> >him.
>
> Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
>
> >Nonsense. The "it" version may be a little more formal,
> >but both are perfectly idiomatic in American English.
>
> Hmmm, I have to go with Perchprism on this one. I would definitely do a
> double-take if I heard someone say, "I think it fair...".
I sense you have another thingk coming. You've heard it.
Really, isn't that what's happening here? People are not realizing what
other people are saying?
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
Alex Chernavsky
>I would definitely do a double-take if I
>heard someone say, "I think it fair...".
Donna Richoux replied:
>I sense you have another thingk coming. You've heard it.
>
>Really, isn't that what's happening here? People are not
>realizing what other people are saying?
I'm not realizing what you're saying. What makes you say that I've heard
the expression? If this has come up before on aue, then I don't remember
it.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
squid...@my-deja.com
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> It grieves me, Perch, to hear you don't recognize ""I think it only
> fair..." I certainly recognize it and I think I use it. Altameter
> turns up only 300 uses, compared to 700 of "I think it's only fair,"
> but still that's not a bad ratio.
You forgot to mention 86 for "I think its only fair"
> I think it has something to do with [looks around, whispers]
> subjunctive.
That would make it "I think it be only fair." -- nobody says that.
Let's consider these sentences:
He called the kettle black.
I think it only fair.
What is the part of speech for <black> and <fair>? On first thought,
they seem like adjectives, but, the more I look at it, I want to call
them direct objects (and <kettle> and <it> are indirect objects).
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Aaron J. Dinkin
Certainly they're adjectives. The role they're playing in the sentence is
that of object complement - which is to say, they stand in the same
relation to the direct object ("kettle" and "it") as a subject complement
stands in to the subject (as in "The kettle is black" or "It is only
fair").
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Michael West
"Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1ehdz2h.1mjfb83nxf6wwN%tr...@euronet.nl...
I think so, too. I often hear, read and say "I think it odd [strange, funny,
weird, obvious,
unlikely] -- whatever.
--
/\/\/\/\/
K. Edgcombe
I agree that both are correct. I would use them to mean slightly different
things:
"I think it fair to say" - I think I ought to say this.
"I think it's fair to say" - I think I shall not be being particularly unfair
to anyone if I say this.
They are nearly interchangeable but in a given context I would be likely to
feel that one was definitely more appropriate than the other.
Katy
David McMurray
[...]
> Lots of illusions get shed in this forum. "I think it fair" is standard
> English, US and US both, and probably everywhere else.
I can never remember -- is it in the US or the US where the preferred
pronunciation is "Bernard"?
--
David
Anatoly Vorobey
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>("I think it fair"[1]) can be found in the archives of AUE.
I read one just a few hours ago:
----
From: grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Phrases That Make Your Skin Crawl
Date: 22 Sep 2000 22:39:00 GMT
[...]
When "I could care less" annoys, I think it helpful to always consider that the
person is probably swallowing the n't in speech.
----
(I recalled reading it, but didn't remember the exact subject, so I had
to search for it; for the benefit of whoever's interested in meaningless
statistics, I'm glad to report that the word which occurs most frequently
after "I think it " in aue posts is "is", followed by "was", then "would"
and "has").
On the other hand, I (a non-native speaker) have the impression that
"I think it fair" and other similar phrases with "think" are more formal
in US English than they are in UK English. I'm not trying to suggest that
they're unidiomatic in US English (a fine example of chutzpah would _that_
be), merely that when trying to express, the meaning "I find that it's X
to/that..." using the verb "to think", only a small minority of US speakers
will use "I think it X to/that...", and many more UK speakers, in relative
terms, will use this construction.
This feeling is probably based on observation; I'm extremely unlikely to
let something like "I think it fair..." go by without attracting my
attention. Don't really know why.
Refutations are, as always, welcome.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mel...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
Anatoly Vorobey
Anatoly Vorobey <mel...@pobox.com> wrote:
>I'm not trying to suggest that
>they're unidiomatic in US English (a fine example of chutzpah would _that_
>be), merely that when trying to express, the meaning "I find that it's X
>to/that..." using the verb "to think", only a small minority of US speakers
>will use "I think it X to/that...", and many more UK speakers, in relative
>terms, will use this construction.
I've done some search engine tests and the results, though inconclusive,
do point in that direction. "I think it fair" is 10% of "I think it's fair"
worlwide (both AltaVista and AllTheWeb), but in UK "I think it fair" is
more common: its number of occurrances is 17% that of "I think it's fair"
according to AllTheWeb and 25% according to AltaVista.
Michael Cargal
>I agree that both are correct. I would use them to mean slightly different
>things:
>
>"I think it fair to say" - I think I ought to say this.
>"I think it's fair to say" - I think I shall not be being particularly unfair
>to anyone if I say this.
>
>They are nearly interchangeable but in a given context I would be likely to
>feel that one was definitely more appropriate than the other.
In mulling over these two examples, I can imagine using either example
when either definition is called for.
--
Michael Cargal mhca...@home.com
John Lawler
>Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either
>is correct in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that .... "
That depends on what you mean by "a sentence like" that one.
It's not the sentence, it's the main verb that governs things like this.
It happens that many verbs of mental process like 'consider' and 'know'
-- but not 'want' -- can take *either* a finite ('that') complement:
I consider/believe/know/*want (that) it is fair.
[Note that the 'that' is optional; seeing if it can be inserted
tells you whether this is a finite complement]
or an infinitive complement with Raising:
I consider/believe/know/want it to be fair.
If the infinitive is 'to be', it may be optionally deleted after
'consider', 'believe', or 'want', but not 'know':
I consider/believe/*know/want it fair.
This illustrates three basic principles about governing verbs:
a) verbs have more fun; i.e, what determines practically everything
in a sentence is which verb is the main, governing verb.
b) verbs of a feather flock together; i.e, verbs that mean similar
things often behave similarly in syntactic constructions.
c) no verb is exactly like any other; e.g, 'know' doesn't allow
'to be'-deletion, 'want' doesn't allow a 'that'-complement, etc.
Well, as it happens, 'think' flocks with these verbs, and allows both
types of complement, but instead of *allowing* 'to be'-deletion, it
*requires* it:
I think (that) it's fair.
*I think it to be fair.
I think it fair.
And that's how the seeming similarity of
I think it fair.
I think it's fair.
is produced. It's not a matter of 'it' at all; this would work for
any noun phrase that could be a Raised subject:
I think Aurora's beautiful.
I think Aurora beautiful.
Verbs are where it's at. The rest of the words in a sentence are just
around to decorate the verb, and keep it supplied with references.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U of Michigan Linguistics Dept
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." Language (1921)
R J Valentine
...
] Well, as it happens, 'think' flocks with these verbs, and allows both
] types of complement, but instead of *allowing* 'to be'-deletion, it
] *requires* it:
]
] I think (that) it's fair.
] *I think it to be fair.
] I think it fair.
I consider "requires" to be a little stronger than necessary. I think the
"I think it to be fair" form to be only slightly more awkward-sounding
than the "I think it fair" form, so I'd demote your asterisk to a question
mark or something.
Is there an official rule about it? Does it work that way in Latin?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@clark.net?subject=%3Cnews:alt.usage.english%3E%20>
Perchprism
>From: mel...@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey)
>Date: 9/24/00 4:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <slrn8srf54....@happy.checkpoint.com>
>
>On 24 Sep 2000 08:01:20 GMT,
>Anatoly Vorobey <mel...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not trying to suggest that
>>they're unidiomatic in US English (a fine example of chutzpah would _that_
>>be), merely that when trying to express, the meaning "I find that it's X
>>to/that..." using the verb "to think", only a small minority of US speakers
>>will use "I think it X to/that...", and many more UK speakers, in relative
>>terms, will use this construction.
>
>I've done some search engine tests and the results, though inconclusive,
>do point in that direction. "I think it fair" is 10% of "I think it's fair"
>worlwide (both AltaVista and AllTheWeb), but in UK "I think it fair" is
>more common: its number of occurrances is 17% that of "I think it's fair"
>according to AllTheWeb and 25% according to AltaVista.
I'm afraid I think that for any such samplings to be valuable, you would have
to submit an excerpt from the text of each article referenced to a panel of
readers (like the SAT folks or AHD's usage panel) and have them grade the
overall quality of the English used by its writer. If the guy writes like a
six-year-old, the sample should be discounted or used as evidence of the
undesirability of the spelling, locution, turn of phrase or whatever in
question.
Perchprism
>From: jla...@login.itd.umich.edu (John Lawler)
>Date: 9/24/00 11:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Wupz5.4315$O5.9...@news.itd.umich.edu>
>
>Judy Lorton <lor...@geocities.com> writes:
>
>>Would someone be kind enough to tell me if "it," "it's," or either
>>is correct in a sentence like, "I think "it/it's" fair to say that .... "
>
>That depends on what you mean by "a sentence like" that one.
>It's not the sentence, it's the main verb that governs things like this.
>
>It happens that many verbs of mental process like 'consider' and 'know'
>-- but not 'want' -- can take *either* a finite ('that') complement:
>
> I consider/believe/know/*want (that) it is fair.
>
> [Note that the 'that' is optional; seeing if it can be inserted
> tells you whether this is a finite complement]
>
>or an infinitive complement with Raising:
>
> I consider/believe/know/want it to be fair.
>
>If the infinitive is 'to be', it may be optionally deleted after
>'consider', 'believe', or 'want', but not 'know':
>
> I consider/believe/*know/want it fair.
>
>This illustrates three basic principles about governing verbs:
>
> a) verbs have more fun; i.e, what determines practically everything
> in a sentence is which verb is the main, governing verb.
>
> b) verbs of a feather flock together; i.e, verbs that mean similar
> things often behave similarly in syntactic constructions.
>
> c) no verb is exactly like any other; e.g, 'know' doesn't allow
> 'to be'-deletion, 'want' doesn't allow a 'that'-complement, etc.
>
>types of complement, but instead of *allowing* 'to be'-deletion, it
>*requires* it:
>
> I think (that) it's fair.
> *I think it to be fair.
> I think it fair.
>
>
> I think it fair.
> I think it's fair.
>
>is produced. It's not a matter of 'it' at all; this would work for
>any noun phrase that could be a Raised subject:
>
> I think Aurora's beautiful.
> I think Aurora beautiful.
>
>Verbs are where it's at. The rest of the words in a sentence are just
>around to decorate the verb, and keep it supplied with references.
Excellent work. Judy must be well-satisfied at such an answer, though it does
leave out considerations of idiom in specific phrases.
Just one thing. In thinking this over, I came to the conclusion that "think" in
"I think it fair" functions the way "dub" does, or did. Your post has me
wondering--do you think "I dub thee X" is "I dub thee to be X " with out the
"to be?" I rather thought "dub" acts almost like a copulative there and needs
no "to be." "Call" seems to behave similarly.
Donna Richoux
The topic has not come up before, not I know of, but I was certain that
you had seen the usage before, here as well as elsewhere, and simply not
realized it. By now I'm sure you've seen John Lawler's explanation and
other posts. I just got around to using Deja to look for instances of it
in a.u.e. It didn't turn up many (common words are hard to search for)
but I found these:
Author: James Follett <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk>
Date: 2000/01/11
"You may have objected, which is fair enough, but I don't think it fair
to give the impression that many have."
Author: Charles Riggs <ri...@RemoveThiseircom.net>
Date: 1999/11/13
"I don't think it fair to equate my position on animal rights with
those of a racist."
Author: Michael W Cook <mwc...@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: 2000/03/23
"I think it only right I try as best I can to sink to his level, seeing
as this is the only time I will be talking directly to him."
These are not typos or mistakes by non-native speakers.
Alex Chernavsky
>I was certain that you had seen the usage ["I think it fair..."]
>before, here as well as elsewhere, and simply not realized it.
Yes, you're right. Thanks for digging up those examples.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
John Lawler
>Excellent work. Judy must be well-satisfied at such an answer, though it
>does leave out considerations of idiom in specific phrases.
Sorry about that; I'm more interested in the general answers.
>Just one thing. In thinking this over, I came to the conclusion that
>"think" in "I think it fair" functions the way "dub" does, or did. Your
>post has me wondering--do you think "I dub thee X" is "I dub thee to be
>X " with out the "to be?" I rather thought "dub" acts almost like a
>copulative there and needs no "to be." "Call" seems to behave similarly.
That has to do with the pragmatic usage of performative verbs -- whether
the use of "baptize" actually performs an act of baptism, and whether use
of "dub" or "name" actually changes the denomination of the referent of
the direct object. This is rarely a matter of grammar, but -- once again
-- more a matter of the details of particular verbs.
For more on the subject of verbs, consult Austin's "How To Do Things With
Words".
K. Edgcombe
I thought of a more specific example to show what I mean (though I am not
suggesting that anyone else ought to mean the same).
Someone asks me whether a fellow-singer would be good at a particular solo
part.
1. I enthuse about her voice and musicianship, but add "I think it fair to say
that she sometimes sings flat". I am trying to be fair to the person who asked
me, and give them a clear picture of what they need to know.
2. I enthuse about her voice and musicianship, but add "I think it's fair to
say that she sometimes sings flat". I am asserting that when I say this I am
not being unfair to the singer.
A sample of one friend consulted at random agreed with me.
Katy
Mark Barratt
"Carmen L. Abruzzi" <n...@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> ----------
> > He called the kettle black.
> > I think it only fair.
> >
> >What is the part of speech for <black> and <fair>? On first thought,
> >they seem like adjectives, but, the more I look at it, I want to call
> >them direct objects (and <kettle> and <it> are indirect objects).
> >
Yes, and that's not a very nice thing to call a kettle.
Regards, Mark Barratt