Niggers
Lee Lester
Surely the origin of negro comes from the Spanish word for black, i.e.
negro, and nigger is a corruption of that.
Keith C. Ivey
lee.l...@guildnet.org (Lee Lester) wrote:
>Surely the origin of negro comes from the Spanish word
>for black, i.e. negro, and nigger is a corruption of that.
It could also have been the Portuguese word "negro", but the
basic idea is the same. Who said otherwise? (This seems to be
the first message in this thread, so I don't know what you were
responding to.)
(By the way, you should have left out "the origin of", unless
you were trying to start a thread on redundancies.)
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eei-alex.com/eye/>
Joseph Chacko
In article <96082403...@guildnet.org>
lee.l...@guildnet.org "Lee Lester" writes:
> Surely the origin of negro comes from the Spanish word for black, i.e.
> negro, and nigger is a corruption of that.
How so sure, when the latin for 'black man' was 'niger'?
--
Joe Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk>
David Johns
Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> wrote:
# How so sure, when the latin for 'black man' was 'niger'?
Well, if "nigger" came in from Latin, wouldn't it have to be from schoolboy
Latin? And wouldn't schoolboys have pronounced it with a [dZ]? In any
case, the American Heritage (3rd edition) says it comes from the French
nègre, which seems reasonable.
David Johns
James R Yingst
In article <322352ed...@news.gnatnet.net>,
David Johns <djo...@afn.org> wrote:
>Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
># How so sure, when the latin for 'black man' was 'niger'?
>
>Well, if "nigger" came in from Latin, wouldn't it have to be from schoolboy
>Latin? And wouldn't schoolboys have pronounced it with a [dZ]?
Perhaps - but obviously, pronunciations change when words are adapted from
other languages. More importantly, if 'niger' existed in Latin, then
there are probably cognates in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian,
Rumanian... Which one is "obviously" the source of the English word?
>In any
>case, the American Heritage (3rd edition) says it comes from the French
>nègre, which seems reasonable.
My copy of the AH 2nd college edition notes that the French came from
Spanish "negro," but neglects to mention that it obviously came from Latin
before that. Go figure.
Jim Yingst
yin...@u.arizona.edu
David Johns
yin...@bonaire.ccit.arizona.edu (James R Yingst) wrote:
# My copy of the AH 2nd college edition notes that the French came from
# Spanish "negro," but neglects to mention that it obviously came from
Latin
# before that. Go figure.
I think the point is that the normal development of Latin niger/nigrum in
French is noir, so that nègre must have taken a detour.
David Johns
David Casseres
In article <50294b$2...@news2.texas.net>, dtwr...@texas.net (David Wright)
wrote:
[Kevin Rys <k...@world.std.com> wrote]
> >I recall an an anecdote that when Lyndon Johnson became president, he had
> >to be coached in his pronunciation of the word "Negroes", as in
> >his dialect the pronunciation of it sounded much closer to that of the
> >subject epithet.
> >
> >Is it possible that the origin of the eptithet is simply a question
> >of dialect and common usage in the southern states?
>
> If the LBJ story isn't true, it probably ought to be. I grew up in the
> area and remember my grandfather speaking of the "Nigras" he knew and
> worked with. No racial slur intended, just the usual central Texas way
> of speaking. I'm talking about late '40s to early '50s.
There was a famous Jules Pfieffer cartoon in which some flunky is
patiently coaching ol' Elbee Jay to "say it again now, carefully:
knee-grow, knee-grow."
It was indeed "a question of dialect and common usage in the southern
states," but the feeling was that anyone who really didn't want to be a
racist would learn to say "knee-grow" just to prove it. Not such a bad
idea, actually.
--
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Bob Cunningham
djo...@afn.org (David Johns) wrote:
>yin...@bonaire.ccit.arizona.edu (James R Yingst) wrote:
>
># My copy of the AH 2nd college edition notes that the French came from
># Spanish "negro," but neglects to mention that it obviously came from
>#Latin before that. Go figure.
It may be that you didn't read the etymology carefully enough. The
Third Edition of the American Heritage has the following etymologies:
For "nigger":
[Alteration of dialectal 'neger', black person, from
French 'nègre', from Spanish 'negro'. See NEGRO.]
For "negro":
[Spanish and Portuguese 'negro', black, Black person,
from Latin 'niger', nigr-, black.]
"See NEGRO" with "negro" in all caps means there is an entry under
the word "negro" that will give you more information about the etymology
of "nigger". But maybe your AH doesn't say "See NEGRO".
Kevin Rys
David Johns wrote:
>
> yin...@bonaire.ccit.arizona.edu (James R Yingst) wrote:
>
> # My copy of the AH 2nd college edition notes that the French came from
> # Spanish "negro," but neglects to mention that it obviously came from
> # before that. Go figure.
>
> I think the point is that the normal development of Latin niger/nigrum in
> French is noir, so that nègre must have taken a detour.
>
> David Johns
David Wright
Kevin Rys <k...@world.std.com> wrote:
If the LBJ story isn't true, it probably ought to be. I grew up in the
area and remember my grandfather speaking of the "Nigras" he knew and
worked with. No racial slur intended, just the usual central Texas way
of speaking. I'm talking about late '40s to early '50s.
David
Jon Robert Crofoot
dtwr...@texas.net (David Wright) wrote:
>Kevin Rys <k...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>>David Johns wrote:
>>>
>>> yin...@bonaire.ccit.arizona.edu (James R Yingst) wrote:
>>>
>>> # My copy of the AH 2nd college edition notes that the French came from
>>> # Spanish "negro," but neglects to mention that it obviously came from
>>> Latin
>>> # before that. Go figure.
>>>
>>> I think the point is that the normal development of Latin niger/nigrum in
>>> French is noir, so that nègre must have taken a detour.
>>>
>>> David Johns
>>I recall an an anecdote that when Lyndon Johnson became president, he had
>>to be coached in his pronunciation of the word "Negroes", as in
>>his dialect the pronunciation of it sounded much closer to that of the
>>subject epithet.
>>
>>Is it possible that the origin of the eptithet is simply a question
>>of dialect and common usage in the southern states?
>
>
negro. See "The Nigger Of The Narcissus", by Joseph
Conrad, a Pole who worked in Britain. Not likely to have
been influenced by southern American dialects!
Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
color black, but to something like "a person of low status
who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
for me to go to bed.
Richard L. Brown
In article <5036t6$g...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Jon Robert Crofoot) writes:
> Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
>of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
>this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
>is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
>color black, but to something like "a person of low status
>who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
>Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
Ahnolt himself has said that the name means "black plowman."
"Schwartz" definitely means black. Ergo, "-enegger" must mean
"plowman" unless Ahnolt is lying. I think you are right, it's
from Teutonic roots, not from Latin, and is really unrelated to
the n-word.
Rich
--
Richard L. Brown Office of Information Services
rbr...@ccmail.uwsa.edu University of Wisconsin System Administration
rlbr...@facstaff.wisc.edu 780 Regent St., Rm. 246 / Madison, WI 53715
David Casseres
In article <5036t6$g...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Jon Robert
Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I don't think that "nigger" is southern dialect for
> negro. See "The Nigger Of The Narcissus", by Joseph
> Conrad, a Pole who worked in Britain. Not likely to have
> been influenced by southern American dialects!
I agree, but I think the original question was about "nigra," not
"nigger." The former is indeed a feature of southern U.S. dialect;
southerners distinguish between the two words, and "nigra" lies somewhere
between "nigger" and "negro" in offensiveness. Possibly "nigra" was
originally just a southern pronunciation of "negro"; perhaps someone more
knowledgeable can elucidate this.
> Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
> of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
> this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
> is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
> color black, but to something like "a person of low status
> who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
> Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
> Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
> for me to go to bed.
Actually I think the name breaks down as "schwartzen Egger" rather than
"schwartze Negger." Once upon a time I probably knew what "Egge" or "Egg"
means in German, but now I don't...
Martin A. Mazur
In article <50471v$2u...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
rbr...@ccmail.uwsa.edu (Richard L. Brown) wrote:
>
>Ahnolt himself has said that the name means "black plowman."
>"Schwartz" definitely means black. Ergo, "-enegger" must mean
>"plowman" unless Ahnolt is lying. I think you are right, it's
>from Teutonic roots, not from Latin, and is really unrelated to
>the n-word.
>
do the Kennedys feel about having a black plowman in the family?" It was
hysterically un-PC, and Ahnolt didn't kill Dave, but otherwise I couldn't tell
if he thought it was funny.
--
Martin A. Mazur | 3rd Century thoughts on MTV:
| "There is no public entertainment which
Representing only himself. | does not inflict spiritual damage"
| - Tertullian
Daan Sandee
In article <3224C1...@world.std.com>, Kevin Rys <k...@world.std.com> writes:
|> David Johns wrote:
|> >
|> I recall an an anecdote that when Lyndon Johnson became president, he had
|> to be coached in his pronunciation of the word "Negroes", as in
|> his dialect the pronunciation of it sounded much closer to that of the
|> subject epithet.
|>
|> Is it possible that the origin of the eptithet is simply a question
|> of dialect and common usage in the southern states?
Andy Young (former mayor of Atlanta, etc.) relates a story how he was
with President Johnson (as a young Civil Rights activist, or whatever),
and Johnson, speaking to others in the room, said something like "we
must give every possible help to the nigg ...", swallowed, looked briefly
at Young, the only African-American in the room, and continued "the Negroes."
I think it was a matter of vocabulary rather than pronunciation ; LBJ had
been brought up to use the N-word without any derogatory intention.
Daan Sandee
Burlington, MA san...@think.com
David Johns
Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
# Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
# of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
# this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
# is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
# color black, but to something like "a person of low status
# who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
# Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
# Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
# for me to go to bed.
The constituency of Schwartzenegger seems to be Schwartzen-egger, and egger
means something like plowsman. From a previous discussion of this, as I
remember, there's also a village in Austria named Egg. In any case, I've
seen other names with the egger component -- a man named Sonderegger comes
to mind.
David Johns
Daan Sandee
In article <5036t6$g...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
|> >
|> I don't think that "nigger" is southern dialect for
|> negro. See "The Nigger Of The Narcissus", by Joseph
|> Conrad, a Pole who worked in Britain. Not likely to have
|> been influenced by southern American dialects!
The word used to exist in British English as well, and was always
derogatory. British troops sent out to India used it for the natives
(who were white, technically.)
|> Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
|> of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
|> this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
|> is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
|> color black, but to something like "a person of low status
|> who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
|> Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
I've posted on this before, but maybe not here. Schwarzenegger,
who is (or was) Austrian, has one of these German surnames like
Heidegger or Feldegger that are toponymics derived from place names
on -egg, where "egg" means "farm" (related to "acre" and "agriculture".)
That is to say, his ancestors came from a farm, or farming village,
called the Black Farm.
Natalie Maynor
cass...@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
>I agree, but I think the original question was about "nigra," not
>"nigger." The former is indeed a feature of southern U.S. dialect;
I'd say "was" rather than "is." The usual pronunciation of "Negro"
was "nigra" in the past. It was not considered an insult of any kind.
>southerners distinguish between the two words, and "nigra" lies somewhere
>between "nigger" and "negro" in offensiveness.
I haven't heard anybody say "nigra" in years.
> Possibly "nigra" was
>originally just a southern pronunciation of "negro"; perhaps someone more
>knowledgeable can elucidate this.
Yes. "Nigra" was the ordinary pronunciation. When people began to
object to it, presumably because it sounds too close to "nigger," we
tried to change the pronunciation from [nIgr{schwa}] to [nigro]. Not
long after we had made this change, the use of the word "Negro" declined
rapidly, being replaced with "Black." For that reason, many Southerners
never got totally used to the new pronunciation and still find that it
feels a bit unnatural to say [nigro]. Although I don't hear anybody
saying "nigra" anymore, I would guess that if a Southerner does say it,
it is much more likely to be a result of having had that pronunciation
as part of a childhood dialect than it is to indicate any level of insult.
In my 53 years as a Southerner, btw, I've never known anybody personally
who used the word "nigger." If the Southern pronunciation of Negro as
nigra came out of any kind of racist motivations, it was before my
generation. The pronunciation "nigra" was neutral.
--
-- Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
SJMitchell
"Egge' is German for 'harrow' (the noun, 'farm implement') -- so I think
the 'Schwarzen' (note the final 'n') is an adjectival form and it's not
the misleading "Schwarze - negger" we've been speculating about, it's
'Schwarzen - Egger'.
yet another bubble burst . . .
stephanie
Uche Ogbuji
In <322560a2...@news.campus.mci.net>, djo...@afn.org (David Johns) writes:
>there's also a village in Austria named Egg. In any case, I've seen other
>names with the egger component -- a man named Sonderegger comes to mind.
How 'bout Heidegger?
--Uche
Solomon Taibi
djo...@afn.org (David Johns) wrote:
>The constituency of Schwartzenegger seems to be Schwartzen-egger, and egger
>means something like plowsman. From a previous discussion of this, as I
>remember, there's also a village in Austria named Egg. In any case, I've
>seen other names with the egger component -- a man named Sonderegger comes
>to mind.
No, no, no!
Schwartzenegger was originally Schwartzenecker. Black *corner*.
--
S. Taibi
*****************************************************
***** Write in JULIAN BOND for president in '96 *****
*****************************************************
Jon Robert Crofoot
djo...@afn.org (David Johns) wrote:
>Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
># Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
># of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
># this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
># is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
># color black, but to something like "a person of low status
># who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
># Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
># Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
># for me to go to bed.
>
>means something like plowsman.
It sounds like you're agreeing with the "manual
laborer" idea.
From a previous discussion of this, as I
>remember, there's also a village in Austria named Egg. In any case, I've
>seen other names with the egger component -- a man named Sonderegger comes
>to mind.
>
It sounds like you're DIS-agreeing... Life is so
confusing!
Cissy . Thorpe
When Arnold was on Jay Leno's Tonight Show sometime back, he said that
his last name meant "black farmer" - I don't recall if he want on to
explain the black part, or even the farmer part, just that that was the
meaning.
Cissy
William C Waterhouse
> >Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> ># Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
> ># of Arnold Schwartzenegger's name. Can anybody help me on
> ># this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
> ># is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
> ># color black, but to something like "a person of low status
> ># who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
> ># Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
> ># Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
> ># for me to go to bed.
The "Schwarzen-" (that's right - no "t") is just a variant of
"Schwarz-" (black). Checking the catalogue of our library, I found
three similar family names where the break between parts is clear:
Schwarzenau (black meadow),
Schwarzenbach (black stream), and
Schwarzenberg (black mountain).
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
Richard M. Alderson III
In article <maynor.8...@Ra.MsState.Edu> may...@Ra.MsState.Edu
(Natalie Maynor) writes:
>In my 53 years as a Southerner, btw, I've never known anybody personally who
>used the word "nigger."
You had a somewhat more genteel, not to say antiseptic, childhood than I, as it
was not uncommon among classmates of mine in the age range 13-18, in Jackson,
Mississippi, and among people of my acquaintance in northeastern Texas (my
original home). However, I found it to be much more common among working class
Yankees than among even working class Southerners in the late 1960s when I
moved to Illinois for an extended period.
I shall, as it happens, be 45 on the 16th instanter, so our timelines are not
all that dissimilar, I should think.
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
Fritz Whittington
Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote in
article <5036t6$g...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
| I don't think that "nigger" is southern dialect for
| negro. See "The Nigger Of The Narcissus", by Joseph
| Conrad, a Pole who worked in Britain. Not likely to have
| been influenced by southern American dialects!
There is at least one Sherlock Holmes story in which the term is used
by native English characters, and in a purely descriptive way, no
derogation
intended. I trust that Doyle was a careful writer who would not have
mis-used the word.
In America, we have progressed from 'nigger' to 'Negro' to 'Black' to
the
current 'African-American'. As each new term comes into vogue, the
earlier term is somehow deprecated.
--
Fritz Whittington f.whit...@worldnet.att.net
David Combs
In article <50294b$2...@news2.texas.net>,
David Wright <dtwr...@texas.net> wrote:
>If the LBJ story isn't true, it probably ought to be. I grew up in the
>area and remember my grandfather speaking of the "Nigras" he knew and
>worked with. No racial slur intended, just the usual central Texas way
>of speaking. I'm talking about late '40s to early '50s.
>
>David
>
>
Same here. Grew up in San Antonio. (bad line noise)..
In early 50's. Great aunt used "nigras" same way, seemingly
with no ill intent.
nancy g.
David Combs wrote:
> dtwr...@texas.net wrote:
>> remember my grandfather speaking of the "Nigras" he knew and
>> worked with. No racial slur intended,
> In early 50's. Great aunt used "nigras" same way, seemingly
> with no ill intent.
There's a discussion taking place right now in one of the
alt.something.movies newsgroups (reviews? older films?) about
the movie based on an Agatha Christie novel which we here
in the U.S. have always known as "Ten Little Indians."
Apparently in the U.K. the same movie was released with the
title "Ten Little Niggers."
Either that, or a great many people have been caught by
a very good troll. Can anyone in this group confirm or
deny this British version of the title?
Nancy G.
muddled by thoughts of what's just "history" and
what's just "racist" and is there a blend of the two ...
Paul Bogrow
nancy g. <nan...@tiac.net> wrote:
>Apparently in the U.K. the same movie was released with the
>title "Ten Little Niggers."
True.
John Rickard
nancy g. (nan...@tiac.net) wrote:
: There's a discussion taking place right now in one of the
: alt.something.movies newsgroups (reviews? older films?) about
: the movie based on an Agatha Christie novel which we here
: in the U.S. have always known as "Ten Little Indians."
: Apparently in the U.K. the same movie was released with the
: title "Ten Little Niggers."
I've just consulted the Internet Movie Database at
<http://uk.imdb.com/>, and learnt from it that there were three films
(dated 1966, 1974, and 1989) with the name "Ten Little Indians" and
based on the novel.
It doesn't mention "Ten Little Niggers" as an alternative title for
any of them, and I don't remember ever seeing that as a film title; on
the contrary, I remember noticing, probably when the 1974 film came
out, that the title had been changed from the novel (which _was_
called "Ten Little Niggers").
--
John Rickard
Nickey Davies
> No, no, no!
>
> Schwartzenegger was originally Schwartzenecker. Black *corner*.
Aha! Is this where 'this neck of the woods' comes from? The shorter OED
doesn't mention it.
Nickey
London, England
Richard Kaulfuss
William C Waterhouse (w...@math.psu.edu) wrote:
:
: > >Jon Robert Crofoot <Bob.C...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: > >
: > ># Which brings up the question of the etymological origin
: > ># this matter? Could it possibly be that the "negger" part
: > ># is Germanic rather than Latinate and does not refer to the
: > ># color black, but to something like "a person of low status
: > ># who gets stuck doing the dirty jobs?" In which case,
: > ># Schwartzenegger might mean "dark-haired manual laborer."
: > ># Or, then again, it might mean that it's late and it's time
: > ># for me to go to bed.
:
: The "Schwarzen-" (that's right - no "t") is just a variant of
: "Schwarz-" (black). Checking the catalogue of our library, I found
: three similar family names where the break between parts is clear:
:
: Schwarzenau (black meadow),
: Schwarzenbach (black stream), and
: Schwarzenberg (black mountain).
ISTR that "Egger" was a dialect variation of "Acker" (field). Or
maybe it comes straight from "Egge" (harrow).
--
Dick
Nickey Davies
> There's a discussion taking place right now in one of the
> alt.something.movies newsgroups (reviews? older films?) about
> the movie based on an Agatha Christie novel which we here
> in the U.S. have always known as "Ten Little Indians."
> Apparently in the U.K. the same movie was released with the
> title "Ten Little Niggers."
>
> a very good troll. Can anyone in this group confirm or
> deny this British version of the title?
It's true; I've got the paperback somewhere. I believe it is now
published under the American title (which, I assume, does not refer to
Native Americans...).
> Nancy G.
> muddled by thoughts of what's just "history" and
> what's just "racist" and is there a blend of the two ...
Nickey
London, England
Monte Haun
I think "Ten Little Indians" was also the title of a Hemingway
short story. There was a Pop(ular) song in Germany some time back
that was partially titled (Ten) Nigerlein and was considered pretty
racist. Monte Haun
Richard M. Alderson III
In article <DxH15...@cix.compulink.co.uk> ndav...@cix.compulink.co.uk
("Nickey Davies") writes:
>It's true; I've got the paperback somewhere. I believe it is now published
>under the American title (which, I assume, does not refer to Native
>Americans...).
Your assumption, unless I missed your tongue in your cheek, would be wrong.
There was a popular song, with accompanying counting game, that was played on
children's program(me)s such as Captain Kangaroo, with animated drawings. Not
a South Asian in the bunch...
Paul J Kriha
In article <960906205...@boehme.demon.co.uk>, Richard Kaulfuss
There is a mountain range called Egger.
Not far away from it is another mountain range called Schwarzwald.
Anybody knows any mountain called Schwarzenegger?
:-)
Paul JK.
Cissy . Thorpe
Only to belabor the point ... Arnold says his last name means "black
farmer" ... at least that's what he told Jay Leno the last time he was on
the Tonight Show.
FWIW
Cissy
eril...@win.bright.net
> > > ISTR that "Egger" was a dialect variation of "Acker" (field). Or
> > > maybe it comes straight from "Egge" (harrow).
> >
> > There is a mountain range called Egger.
> > Not far away from it is another mountain range called Schwarzwald.
> >
> > Anybody knows any mountain called Schwarzenegger?
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Paul JK.
> >
> >
> Only to belabor the point ... Arnold says his last name means "black
> farmer" ... at least that's what he told Jay Leno the last time he was on
> the Tonight Show.
>
> FWIW
> Cissy
We have Stauffeneckers in the part of Minnesota I teach in. Their name
comes from Switzerland. I would not be at all surprised to learn that
-ecker and -egger both lost an -er and came from "ackerer", or one who
farmed that acre.
Mary LO
--
|\ /|\ | |\ |\ |\
| \/ |/ | | |\ |/
| |\ | | | |\
deyr fe', deyra fraendr,
deyr sjalfr et sama;
ek veit einn at aldri deyr:
domr of daud-an hvern.
---Havamal
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Translation of the verse in Old Norse as well as other words of wisdom are among the treasures hidden in Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.win.bright.net/~erilarlo
Mark Brader
"Nancy G." (nan...@tiac.net) writes in alt.usage.english:
> There's a discussion taking place right now in one of the
> alt.something.movies newsgroups (reviews? older films?)
That's rec.arts.movies.past-films. I have added a cross-posting.
> about the movie based on an Agatha Christie novel which we here
> in the U.S. have always known as "Ten Little Indians."
It's not "the movie", actually, but *one* of the movies.
John Rickard (j...@atml.co.uk) writes in a followup:
| I've just consulted the Internet Movie Database at <http://uk.imdb.com/>,
(For people in North America, <http://us.imdb.com> is faster.)
| and learnt from it that there were three films (dated 1966, 1974,
| and 1989) with the name "Ten Little Indians" and based on the novel.
The IMDB is incomplete here, in that it doesn't have remake-of links
between the *four* film versions. The one in question is the first
and best of the four, directed by Rene Clair and made in 1945.
I have here "The Agatha Christie Companion: The Complete Guide to Agatha
Christie's Life & Work" by Dennis Sanders and Len Lovallo (1984, Avalon
Books edition 1985, ISBN 0-517-47925-7), and the rest of this posting
is from information in that source, plus a few items from Leonard Maltin's
movie guidebook.
Apologies in advance to anyone who is offended, as I am myself, by some
of the usages that follow.
First, the rhyme. The original version of it was called "Ten Little
Indians"; it was written in 1868 by Septimus Winner of Philadelphia,
who also wrote under the pseudonym Alice Hawthorne and was also the
author of the 1864 song "Where Oh Where Has My Little Dog Gone?".
The first four lines are:
Ten little Injuns [sic] standin' in a line,
One toddled home and then there were nine;
Nine little Injuns swingin' on a gate,
One tumbled off and then there were eight.
Less than a year after this song had been published in London, an
adaptation of it was written for British music hall audiences by Frank
Green. This 1869 version was called "Ten Little Niggers" and the first
four lines are:
Ten little Nigger boys went out to dine;
One choked his little self and then there were nine.
Nine little Nigger boys sat up very late;
One overslept himself and then there were eight.
Green's version not only changes the ethnic group and the details of
what happened to each of the ten, but adds various British place names.
The original publication of the book was in Britain in 1939, by Collins.
It includes the full Frank Green version of the rhyme and had the same
title: "Ten Little Niggers".
The first US edition, in 1940, was published by Dodd, Mead. They:
- Changed the setting from Nigger Island (shaped like "a man's
head ... with negroid lips") to Indian Island (shaped like
"a man's head -- an American Indian profile").
- Changed the title to "And Then There Were None".
- Substituted Indian for Nigger in the rhyme and throughout
the story.
Note that the story was built around the details of the Green version of
the rhyme, so substituting the original Winner version would introduce
further consistency problems. Sanders and Lovallo aren't clear on this
point, but I believe US editions merely replaced Nigger by Indian within
Green's version.
Subsequent US editions of the book have used two *more* titles: "Ten
Little Indians" and "The Nursery Rhyme Murders". The first of these is
familiar to me, but I've never seen a copy bearing the other title.
Sanders and Lovallo said that the title "And Then There Were None" had
returned to favor in the US at the time they were writing.
Christie, who wrote plays as well as books, adapted this one herself for
the stage. It opened in London in 1943 and in New York in 1944. Again
the title was "Ten Little Niggers" and "And Then There Were None" in the
two countries. The ending of the original book conformed to Green's
version of the rhyme; for the stage, she changed it in a manner perhaps
suggested by Winner's version. This change was then carried over into
at least three of the movie versions (I don't know about the last one,
which postdates Sanders and Lovallo).
The next version to appear was the 1945 film, directed by Rene Clair.
According to Sanders and Lovallo, the same two titles "And Then There
Were None" and "Ten Little Niggers" were used in the US and Britain
respectively. I have no confirmation from another source that "Ten
Little Niggers" was used for the film in Britain, though.
The three later, inferior films all came from the same producer, in 1966,
1974, and 1989 (Sanders and Lovallo give the first two dates are 1965 and
1975). The were all called "Ten Little Indians", and moved the location
successively from an island off the coast of Britain to the Alps, Iran,
and Africa. The IMDB says that the title "And Then There Were None" was
also used for the 1974 film.
The original title, "Ten Little Niggers", continued to be used for the
book in Britain at least up to the time of Sanders and Lovallo's book.
On at least one occasion, in 1966, there were protests against the title
when a new production of the play appeared; it was changed to "And Then
There Were None" for at least that production.
Searching a couple of library catalogs, I found several instances of
"Ten Little Indians" (including one for the play and one in Thai) and
more of "And Then There Were None". "Ten Little Niggers" also turned
up under that title, not only the original book but also in Spanish,
French, and Hungarian translations.
--
Mark Brader, m...@sq.com "Information! ... We want information!"
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto -- The Prisoner
My text in this article is in the public domain.
William Dyckes
> > Only to belabor the point ... Arnold says his last name means "black
> > farmer" ... at least that's what he told Jay Leno the last time he was on
> > the Tonight Show.
black plowman
Anno Siegel
William Dyckes <bdy...@ix.netcom.com> wrote on alt.usage.english:
That would be "harrower" instead of "plowman", from "egge" (harrow).
But to convince me completely, the name would have to be "Schwarzegger".
The "en" remains unexplained.
Anno
Kai Henningsen
m...@sq.com (Mark Brader) wrote on 15.09.96 in <1996Sep15....@sq.com>:
> First, the rhyme. The original version of it was called "Ten Little
> Indians"; it was written in 1868 by Septimus Winner of Philadelphia,
> who also wrote under the pseudonym Alice Hawthorne and was also the
> author of the 1864 song "Where Oh Where Has My Little Dog Gone?".
> The first four lines are:
>
> Ten little Injuns [sic] standin' in a line,
> One toddled home and then there were nine;
> Nine little Injuns swingin' on a gate,
> One tumbled off and then there were eight.
>
> Less than a year after this song had been published in London, an
> adaptation of it was written for British music hall audiences by Frank
> Green. This 1869 version was called "Ten Little Niggers" and the first
> four lines are:
>
> Ten little Nigger boys went out to dine;
> One choked his little self and then there were nine.
>
> Nine little Nigger boys sat up very late;
> One overslept himself and then there were eight.
>
> Green's version not only changes the ethnic group and the details of
> what happened to each of the ten, but adds various British place names.
Interesting.
There's a German version (a children's song), of which I have forgotten
nearly all the lyrics, but I remember the melody and can't match it to the
English text. (There are probably as many different versions as people
singing it.)
It's called "Zehn kleine Negerlein", which could probably be translated as
"ten little negroes". The word "Neger" has no negative connotations in
German that I am aware of. As to the book, I couldn't find out the German
title. It might, of course, have been something completely different - for
some weird reason, German publishers love to do that.
Kai
--
Internet: k...@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
Malte Borcherding
k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
>The word "Neger" has no negative connotations in German that I am
>aware of.
Well, it is not so much used nowadays, and has a certain non-pc
flavour. People formerly known as negroes are currently referred to as
Farbige (coloured). The term "people of color" has not yet been translated
into German; "Menschen von Farbe" would sound quite silly. Maybe we just
skip this one and take the next version to come.
>As to the book, I couldn't find out the German >title. It might, of
course, have been something completely different - for >some weird reason,
German publishers love to do that.
Not in this case. It is simply called "Zehn kleine Negerlein" (Scherz
Verlag, 1985).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malte Borcherding * bor...@ira.uka.de
http://goethe.ira.uka.de/people/borcher/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Mell
>It's called "Zehn kleine Negerlein", which could probably be translated as
>"ten little negroes". The word "Neger" has no negative connotations in
>German that I am aware of.
I believe it's close to the word for 'black' and that may be where the
original slur came from, use of the German word.
For example. Swartzenegger (sic? - anyway, a name you may have heard
before) is, like many German words, a combination of words. It means
black ploughman and the 'negger' part is the word for black.
I heard this from Arnie in an interview with Arsenio. (Well, gotta
get your education from somewhere!)
warrenh
I think you misunderstood. Schwartz is the German word for black.
Kai Henningsen
bor...@ira.uka.de (Malte Borcherding) wrote on 19.09.96 in <51r2u9$q...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>:
> k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
> >The word "Neger" has no negative connotations in German that I am
> >aware of.
>
> Well, it is not so much used nowadays, and has a certain non-pc
> flavour. People formerly known as negroes are currently referred to as
> Farbige (coloured). The term "people of color" has not yet been translated
> into German; "Menschen von Farbe" would sound quite silly. Maybe we just
> skip this one and take the next version to come.
"Farbige" is *not* used commonly. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing it
outside formal contexts.
I certainly wouldn't ever dream of using it to refer to my (adopted)
brother, for example.
However, I did just remember one negative connotation - it seems that
people usually don't think of the one when they hear the other. There is a
usage of "Neger" for "someone who does all the unwanted work". I don't
hear it very often.
Kai Henningsen
war...@istar.ca (warrenh) wrote on 21.09.96 in <51vieo$l...@news.inforamp.net>:
> Michael Mell wrote:
> >
> > >It's called "Zehn kleine Negerlein", which could probably be translated
> > >as "ten little negroes". The word "Neger" has no negative connotations in
> > >German that I am aware of.
> >
> > I believe it's close to the word for 'black' and that may be where the
> > original slur came from, use of the German word.
> >
> > For example. Swartzenegger (sic? - anyway, a name you may have heard
> > before) is, like many German words, a combination of words. It means
> > black ploughman and the 'negger' part is the word for black.
> >
> > I heard this from Arnie in an interview with Arsenio. (Well, gotta
> > get your education from somewhere!)
>
> I think you misunderstood. Schwartz is the German word for black.
Not quite. It's "schwarz", supposedly one of our oldest colour names.
"Neger" is, of course, from Latin "niger" black (via Spanish "negro" and
French "nègre").
By the way, "Schwarzer" ("black (man)") is also sometimes used, probably
as much as "Farbiger" ("coloured (man)").
An old word is "Mohr" (from Latin "Maurus" (Northwest African)). Friedrich
Kluge (Kluge Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, 17. Auflage,
Walter de Gruyter & Co., Berlin 1957) claims that we also got "Nigger"
from America, but I haven't seen or heard it.
Malte Borcherding
Just to add another unfounded speculation: I would interpret his name as
"man who comes from Schwarzenegg". Unfortunately, I do not know a place
whith this name. But according to a book about field-names of my region,
the suffix "egg" is related to "eck", meaning "corner, edge". This would
make hin a "man who comes from the black corner".
This does not really expliain the "en", of course. It may have slipped in
to make the word simpler to pronounce, or it may be the result of phrases
like "Wir treffen uns am schwarzen Eck" (We'll meet at the black corner).
Malte
Bill Fisher
In article <6HGxd...@khms.westfalen.de>, k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
> bor...@ira.uka.de (Malte Borcherding) wrote on 19.09.96 in <51r2u9$q...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>:
>
> > k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
> > >aware of.
> >
> > flavour. People formerly known as negroes are currently referred to as
> > Farbige (coloured). The term "people of color" has not yet been translated
> > into German; "Menschen von Farbe" would sound quite silly. Maybe we just
> > skip this one and take the next version to come.
>
> "Farbige" is *not* used commonly. In fact, I can't recall ever hearing it
> outside formal contexts.
>
> I certainly wouldn't ever dream of using it to refer to my (adopted)
> brother, for example.
>
> However, I did just remember one negative connotation - it seems that
> people usually don't think of the one when they hear the other. There is a
> usage of "Neger" for "someone who does all the unwanted work". I don't
> hear it very often.
>
Could this be a calque of the Yinglish "shvartze", or vice-versa?
- billf
Joseph C Fineman
k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
>By the way, "Schwarzer" ("black (man)") is also sometimes used, probably
>as much as "Farbiger" ("coloured (man)").
That seems to be the usual word in Yiddish.
>An old word is "Mohr" (from Latin "Maurus" (Northwest African)).
That is the word used in _Der Struwwelpeter_, the little book of
cautionary children's rhymes by Heinrich Hoffman (1844, still in
print). In it, the naughty children make fun of a
"kohlpechrabenschwarzer Mohr" (a coal-pitch-raven-black Negro: English
has all those figures of speech too, but not in one word!) on the
street. When they will not stop, a bearded grownup dips them all into
an enormous inkpot, so that they end up much blacker than the
"Mohrenkind". I have always wondered what the Nazis did about this
story.
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
495 Pleasant St., #1 (617) 324-6899
Malden, MA 02148
Avi Jacobson
Joseph C Fineman wrote:
>
> k...@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes:
>
> >By the way, "Schwarzer" ("black (man)") is also sometimes used, probably
> >as much as "Farbiger" ("coloured (man)").
>
> That seems to be the usual word in Yiddish.
Correct, and -- despite what non-Yiddish speakers might claim -- the
word is (both by etymology and by usage) non-derogatory. Other
expressions, however, of which some do contain the word "shvartse", are
used derogatorily.
There are a number of alternative expressions in Yiddish to denote a
black person. Some are "code words", deliberately chosen because they
are likely to be understood by fluent Yiddish speakers but not by
non-Jews (even those familiar with words like "shavrtse"). One such
word (my grandmother used it all the time) is "tinkel", cognate to
German Dunkel, "darkness". Another is "choyshech", Yiddishized
pronunciation of the Hebrew for "darkness", which appears in Genesis
1:2. A third class is that of more literary terms. In the famous
Yiddish art song "Di Goldene Pave" ("The Golden Peacock"), written, I
believe, by Itzik Manger, the word Neger is used.
>
> >An old word is "Mohr" (from Latin "Maurus" (Northwest African)).
>
> That is the word used in _Der Struwwelpeter_, the little book of
> cautionary children's rhymes by Heinrich Hoffman (1844, still in
> print). In it, the naughty children make fun of a
> "kohlpechrabenschwarzer Mohr" (a coal-pitch-raven-black Negro: English
> has all those figures of speech too, but not in one word!) on the
> street. When they will not stop, a bearded grownup dips them all into
> an enormous inkpot, so that they end up much blacker than the
> "Mohrenkind". I have always wondered what the Nazis did about this
> story.
Interesting: about 25 years ago, I heard the word "moros" (Moors, same
Latin root) used in Spain as a derogatory term for Arabs (particularly
foreign laborers and students).
--
Avi Jacobson, email: avi_...@netvision.net.il | When an idea is
Home Page (Israel): | wanting, a word
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/avi_jaco | can always be found
Mirror Home Page (U.S.): | to take its place.
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/4034 | -- Goethe
Ned Kelly
Anno Siegel (anno...@lublin.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE) wrote:
: That would be "harrower" instead of "plowman", from "egge" (harrow).
: But to convince me completely, the name would have to be "Schwarzegger".
: The "en" remains unexplained.
When pronouncing Arnold's last name, I make it a point to clearly
pronounce that "e" after the "n" to avoid the danger of mispronouncing it
as "schwartze-nigger. In a workplace with a lot of Americans of Native
African Descent, that mispronounciation can make you a lot of enemies
quickly.
--
Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html
The Navy: It's Not Just A Job..... It's $cientology Lite!
Winblows95: Micro$hit's Answer to the Arch Deluxe(tm), which also sucks.
Kai Henningsen
avi_...@netvision.net.il (Avi Jacobson) wrote on 24.09.96 in <3247AA...@netvision.net.il>:
> Interesting: about 25 years ago, I heard the word "moros" (Moors, same
> Latin root) used in Spain as a derogatory term for Arabs (particularly
> foreign laborers and students).
Well, I *did* write that Spanish was in the route that got the word to
German. No reason it should not have survived.
The word "Mohr", however, is probably best known in German as trademark
(or whatever), the "Sarotti Mohr", a little drawing of a black kid (in
typical western african garb) on a specific brand of chocolate. It's no
longer in active use otherwise.
MR LUTHANDO MVENYA
In article <525eld$2...@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> bor...@ira.uka.de (Malte Borcherding) writes:
>From: bor...@ira.uka.de (Malte Borcherding)
>Subject: Re: Schwarzenegger
>Date: 23 Sep 1996 07:36:13 GMT
>anno...@lublin.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Anno Siegel) writes:
>>William Dyckes <bdy...@ix.netcom.com> wrote on alt.usage.english:
>>>> > Only to belabor the point ... Arnold says his last name means "black
>>>> > farmer" ... at least that's what he told Jay Leno the last time he was on
>>>> > the Tonight Show.
>>>
>>>black plowman
>>
>>But to convince me completely, the name would have to be "Schwarzegger".
>>The "en" remains unexplained.
>