Past perfect and "before"
datere
I saw a web site (http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/
pastperfect.html) which says:
▲She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska. Not
Correct
▲She had never seen a bear before she moved to Alaska. Correct
May I ask why the first example is wrong? The web page gives such
reason:
"If the Past Perfect is not referring to an action at a specific time,
Past Perfect is not optional. Here Past Perfect is referring to a lack
of experience rather than an action at a specific time. For this
reason, Simple Past cannot be used."
I'm still very confused after I read this. I still don't understand
what does it mean by "an action at a specific time". Could you please
explain it to me in another words? Thank you very much!
Purl Gurl
(snipped)
> She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska. Not Correct
> She had never seen a bear before she moved to Alaska. Correct
> May I ask why the first example is wrong? The web page gives such
> reason:
> I'm still very confused after I read this. I still don't understand
> what does it mean by "an action at a specific time". Could you please
> explain it to me in another words?
Ok, Datere, different words for you.
You need to understand our English word "negate" to make
sense of our crazy grammar rules.
Negate: to make untrue, to make the opposite true.
"Datere has never seen a bear."
"Datere had not seen a bear until today."
"had not" until something changed - you saw a bear.
When did something change? Today.
Our "had" is used to negate, to make untrue what was
previously true.
had - true before, now not true.
"Datere had never seen a bear before today."
Your "had" means you now have seen a bear.
This "had" does _negate_ what was true.
"It is true Datere never saw a bear. Today,
Datere saw a bear. It is no longer true
Datere never saw a bear."
"had never" - had negates this to "has now".
"had never" means "has now".
"Datere has now seen a bear."
"Datere had never seen a bear, before now."
"When did Datere see a bear?"
"Datere saw a bear today."
"Has Datere ever seen a bear before?"
"No, Datere has never seen a bear before."
"Datere had not seen a bear until today?"
"Yes, Datere had not seen a bear before today."
"Datere has seen a bear for the first time today!"
Use of "had" in your examples requires a time frame. This
"had" means "something was true until a certain time. You
need to add a "time" with your "had" usage.
Had: this WAS true UNTIL this time. Now this is NOT TRUE.
--
Purl Gurl
--
So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind
like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
Jim Karatassos
Datere, you have a real point here. Don't ever listen to Purl
Gurl...she's crazy and enjoys playing with people, but she tells
entertaining stories.
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html is just not as
good a resource as it should be, and I would not trust the grammar
explanations there. As with most things that are free in this world,
www.englishpage.com doesn't get the job done.
In this case the explanation given on that webpage is misleading.
Here's another view on this from a book called _Grammar for English
Language Teachers_, written by Martin Parrott and published by
Cambridge University Press. I recommend it on my website as the second-
best ESL grammar/usage reference you can have on your shelf, primarily
because it deals well with a few problems like this one.
---------------------------------------
Page 196
Sequence of events
We use the past perfect simple when we want to draw attention to the
fact that something took place and finished before something else in
the past.
We often use the past perfect simple in clauses connected by a
conjunction (e.g. when, and, that, because, so) to a clause contaiing
a verb in the simple past.
I knew (that) I had seen her somewhere nefore
It had stopped raining so they didn't bother to put the car away.
We use the past perfect simple to avoid confusion or ambiguity. We
don't use it simply because one event came before another, but in
order to clarify the order of events. So, for example, we use the
tense more frequently with the conjunction "when" than "before" or
"after":
They had finished eating when I got there. (Only the two tenses make
the sequence of events clear.)
They finished eating before I got there. (The conjunction "before"
makes the sequence of events clear, and so we can use the simple past
(rather than the past perfect) for the earlier of the events.)
Very often, context provides SOME information about the sequence of
events. In this case, choosing between simple past and past perfect
involves making subtle judgments about how much information is needed,
and we generally prefer to provide too much rather than to risk
misunderstanding.
-----------------------------------------------
What Parrott doesn't tell you is that hypercorrect usage of the Past
Perfect (using it everywhere it can possibly be used) is considered
poor English, and if you do it in writing and speech, you will be
looked down on. This is of course, completely different from most
other languages, which REQUIRE that you use whatever tense does this
particular job, and using the equivalent of the past simple in these
cases is a usage error.
Well-educated non-natives therefore seem to have more problems with
the English past perfect than others, because of that fact and that
what I've written below is rarely, if ever, explained properly and
respectfully to them.
---------------------------------------------------
English focuses a lot more on using time expressions and less on using
verb forms to convey meaning in narratives than most other languages.
If you think about it, that's why...
They had finished eating when I got there.
They finished eating before I got there.
--------
Please tell me if you find this incomprehensible. I know it's not
easy, and not at all easy to convey to your own learners, but it's an
honest answer to an honest question.
Purl Gurl
> datere wrote:
(snipped)
>> I saw a web site (http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/
>> pastperfect.html) which says:
>> I'm still very confused after I read this. I still don't understand
>> what does it mean by "an action at a specific time". Could you please
>> explain it to me in another words? Thank you very much!
> Datere, you have a real point here. Don't ever listen to Purl
> Gurl...she's crazy and enjoys playing with people, but she tells
> entertaining stories.
You are full of crap, Jim, and very childish.
Your key expression is, "another words."
Datere cannot make sense of pedant anal retentive
technical gibberish. Datere is asking for a simple
plain English explanation he might understand.
Datere is learning English, he is a beginner. He should
not be treated as a post-grad college student. He is
having difficult with technical explanations, he should
not be subjected to additional technical explanations.
Datere needs to begin with the most simple of explanations.
Once he understand a very basic nuance, then he can begin
building his higher learning.
You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
and learning is a pyramid process.
> http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html
Anal retentive technical gibberish.
> Here's another view on this from a book called _Grammar for English
> Language Teachers_, written by Martin Parrott and published by
> Page 196
> Sequence of events
Anal retentive technical gibberish.
> What Parrott doesn't tell you is that hypercorrect usage of the Past
> Perfect (using it everywhere it can possibly be used) is considered
Anal retentive technical gibberish.
> English focuses a lot more on using time expressions and less on using
> verb forms to convey meaning in narratives than most other languages.
Anal retentive technical gibberish.
> Please tell me if you find this incomprehensible.
Yes, incomprehensible anal retentive technical gibberish,
unless you are an English professor such as I.
What is wrong with you, boy? Datere explains he cannot
understand technical explanations. Datere asks for a
simple plain English explanation. Your response is to
throw more anal retentive technical gibberish at Datere.
You are very rude.
Jim Karatassos
<snipped>
> Yes, incomprehensible anal retentive technical gibberish,
> unless you are an English professor such as I.
>
> What is wrong with you, boy? Datere explains he cannot
> understand technical explanations. Datere asks for a
> simple plain English explanation. Your response is to
> throw more anal retentive technical gibberish at Datere.
>
> You are very rude.
Dear Purl Gurl English Professor:
I am seated in the smallest room of my house.
Your post is before me.
Soon, it will be behind me.
Regards,
Jim Karatassos
Django Cat
<snip lots of good stuff>
>
>English focuses a lot more on using time expressions and less on using
>verb forms to convey meaning in narratives than most other languages.
>If you think about it, that's why...
>
>
>They had finished eating when I got there.
>They finished eating before I got there.
>
>--------
>Please tell me if you find this incomprehensible. I know it's not
>easy, and not at all easy to convey to your own learners, but it's an
>honest answer to an honest question.
>
>
To further confuse Datare this is one of the BrE vs AmE differences you talked
about recently, Jim. 'She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska' sounds
Am to Br ears, in much the same way as our old friend 'I never ate lasagna in
my life'.
DC
--
Jim Karatassos
> > Jim Karatassos wrote
> >On Aug 4, 6:59 pm, datere <ee123456...@yahoo.com.tw> wrote:
> >> Hello, everyone:
>
> >> I saw a web site (http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/
> >> pastperfect.html) which says:
>
> >> ▲She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska. Not
> >> Correct
> >> ▲She had never seen a bear before she moved to Alaska. Correct
>
> >> May I ask why the first example is wrong? The web page gives such
> >> reason:
>
> >> "If the Past Perfect is not referring to an action at a specific time,
> >> Past Perfect is not optional. Here Past Perfect is referring to a lack
> >> of experience rather than an action at a specific time. For this
> >> reason, Simple Past cannot be used."
>
> >> I'm still very confused after I read this. I still don't understand
> >> what does it mean by "an action at a specific time". Could you please
> >> explain it to me in another words? Thank you very much!
>
> >Datere, you have a real point here. Don't ever listen to Purl
> >Gurl...she's crazy and enjoys playing with people, but she tells
> >entertaining stories.
>
> >good a resource as it should be, and I would not trust the grammar
> >explanations there. As with most things that are free in this world,
>
> >In this case the explanation given on that webpage is misleading.
>
> >Here's another view on this from a book called _Grammar for English
> >Language Teachers_, written by Martin Parrott and published by
> >Cambridge University Press. I recommend it on my website as the second-
> >best ESL grammar/usage reference you can have on your shelf, primarily
> >because it deals well with a few problems like this one.
>
> <snip lots of good stuff>
>
>
>
> >English focuses a lot more on using time expressions and less on using
> >verb forms to convey meaning in narratives than most other languages.
> >If you think about it, that's why...
>
> >They had finished eating when I got there.
> >They finished eating before I got there.
>
> >--------
> >Please tell me if you find this incomprehensible. I know it's not
> >easy, and not at all easy to convey to your own learners, but it's an
> >honest answer to an honest question.
>
> To further confuse Datare this is one of the BrE vs AmE differences you talked
> about recently, Jim. 'She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska' sounds
> Am to Br ears, in much the same way as our old friend 'I never ate lasagna in
> my life'.
>
> DC
It's fair to say that BrE is more careful about the past perfect than
AmE.
And that illiterate present-perfect example is a shining example of
how Noah Webster took his dislike of the French and attempted excision
the influence of the Passe Compose from the Present Perfect in English
in his attempted language reformations one step too far.
I've tried to break that down into something reasonable at my website,
but it's a work in progress.
And finally, at least we're givng Datere the opportunity to get away
from his "Ho's Complete English Grammar" before he catches the clap.
Django Cat
Oh really? I always thought it was one of those differences that just
happened... maybe by application by immigrants of patterns from, say, German,
on to English as spoken in the US...
>
>I've tried to break that down into something reasonable at my website,
>but it's a work in progress.
'Gis the link, Jim.
>
>And finally, at least we're givng Datere the opportunity to get away
>from his "Ho's Complete English Grammar" before he catches the clap.
>
Ho? Ho, ho. 'Grievous Bodily Grammar' is the work I always have in mind for
these kinds of questions...
DC
--
jinhyun
Yes, this part of grammar is very confusing and most people trying to
teach it haven't thought the essential principles through themselves.
Let's just say that the past perfect form is used to indicate a time
context even further past than another time context for which the
simple past is used.
In your example 'She had never seen a bear before she moved to
Alaska' moving to Alaska is in the simple past to indicate its time
context. Not seeing any bears has a time context even further past and
so we use the past perfect in referring to it. The past perfect has a
strange anatomy in English. Most people teaching grammar today don't
seem to have any perspective on it. It is used in reported speech in a
very interesting way for example. But since the people teaching you
don't really know what they're talking about, it is useless to
comprehend the matter in precise rules yourself. Just follow usage for
now. Later, when your English is better, maybe you can write a
treatise about it.
jinhyun
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are counterexamples, mind you! You've listed some on a different
thread.
Jim Karatassos
> 'Gis the link, Jim.
Thank DC. Your comments would definitely be appreciated, especially
since I'm already under the impression that I need to significantly
retool it before the next academic year starts.
http://jim.karatassos.googlepages.com/presentperfect
> Ho? Ho, ho. 'Grievous Bodily Grammar' is the work I always have in mind for
> these kinds of questions...
OK, now I know you're not going to believe this one, but...
...scroll down to the grammar books and you'll still find GBH, alive
and well.
You'll love the "Job Opportunities" sections calling for English-
proficient applicants...written in Greek.
R H Draney
>
>Dear Purl Gurl English Professor:
>
>I am seated in the smallest room of my house.
>Your post is before me.
>Soon, it will be behind me.
Author!...r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
<snip>
>You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>and learning is a pyramid process.
You'll call me anal, as is your wont when someone points out one of
your English errors, but since I am not afraid of your wrath, the
adjective form of pyramid is pyramidal, PG.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Roland Hutchinson
> Jim Karatassos filted:
>>
>>Dear Purl Gurl English Professor:
>>
>>I am seated in the smallest room of my house.
>>Your post is before me.
>>Soon, it will be behind me.
>
> Author!...r
Composer!
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Django Cat
>On Aug 5, 5:13 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> 'Gis the link, Jim.
>
>Thank DC. Your comments would definitely be appreciated, especially
>since I'm already under the impression that I need to significantly
>retool it before the next academic year starts.
>
>http://jim.karatassos.googlepages.com/presentperfect
Wow, lots of interesting stuff there... I'm just starting reading the 'History
of ELT' piece - I'd not heard of Howatt's book - will get back to you on this...
>
>> Ho? Ho, ho. 'Grievous Bodily Grammar' is the work I always have in mind
>>for these kinds of questions...
>
>OK, now I know you're not going to believe this one, but...
>
>http://www.grivas.gr/
>
>...scroll down to the grammar books and you'll still find GBH, alive
>and well.
I just hope it's not still as hopelessly misleading as it was in the early
'80s. I'm still trying to work out what 'this should be done by anybody' means
( I think we've done this one before).
>
>You'll love the "Job Opportunities" sections calling for English-
>proficient applicants...written in Greek.
>
Sigh. Jim, if you've got two minutes, could you post a quick summary of what
that Greek text says? (The only words I understand are '???????? ???ssa?',
'd?da?t???' and 'µe e-mail'). I'm actually looking for editing work and might
drop them a line - or do they only want people who are based in Athens?
DC
--
Purl Gurl
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>> and learning is a pyramid process.
> You'll call me anal, as is your wont when someone points out one of
> your English errors, but since I am not afraid of your wrath, the
> adjective form of pyramid is pyramidal, PG.
Which you erroneously perceive as a grammar error because
your English language skills are so lacking you are unaware
of this enjoyable flexibility of English language.
You are rigidly flaccid.
You are an anal retentive dictionary dick who has not
a clue about effective writing.
Behold the Almighty Dictionary! Fall to your knees and
tremble lest the omnipotent Lexicon, slayer of Ozymandias,
rip your tongue from its very roots for uttering savage
language transgressions! Read thy palaver pyramid stone
and pray to never speak a style otherwise,
"See Jane Run. See Dick chase Jane. See Jane knocked up."
Purl Gurl
> R H Draney wrote:
>> Jim Karatassos filted:
>>> Dear Purl Gurl English Professor:
>>> I am seated in the smallest room of my house.
>>> Your post is before me.
>>> Soon, it will be behind me.
>> Author!
> Composer!
Quillador!
Purl Gurl
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> Purl Gurl wrote:
>>> You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>>> and learning is a pyramid process.
>> You'll call me anal...adjective form of pyramid is pyramidal
Most certainly! You are anal, and not the brightest
color in the Crayon box.
For all my adoring students, zealous fans and disgruntled
subjects of my Queendom, Nair de'Well, enlightenment from
your most illustrious blowhard queen!
Crack a joke and I will have you beaten with a wiffle bat.
You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
and learning is a pyramid process.
You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
and learning is a (build a) pyramid process.
Wallah! Behold your majesty's awe inspiring literacy
magic of smoke and mirrors! Be humbled by my powerful
way with words, lest I loose the dictionary dogs.
Jim Karatassos
Voltaire, of course:
datere
understand why the first sentence "She never saw a bear before she
moved to Alaska." is considered incorrect. I found quite many similar
usage here in http://books.google.com/books?lr=&hl=zh-TW&q=%22She+never+saw+a+*+before%22
, so I don't think this sentence could be considered "incorrect".
What's your opinions about it? I'd appreciate it if you could tell me
why it is incorrect.
Jim Karatassos
<snip>
> Sigh. Jim, if you've got two minutes, could you post a quick summary of what
> that Greek text says? (The only words I understand are '???????? ???ssa?',
> 'd?da?t???' and 'µe e-mail'). I'm actually looking for editing work and might
> drop them a line - or do they only want people who are based in Athens?
Rough but accurate.
-----------------------------
Educational representatives wanted to supply teaching materials to
companies.
REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS:
-- Exceptional knowledge of the English language (knowledge of a
second foreign language preferred) (The term used in this context, DC,
means "Cambridge/Michigan Proficiency holder")
-- Exceptional communicative ability
-- Ability to travel frequently to areas outside Athens
-- Valid driving license
Previous experience in sales and English language teaching will be
preferred.
-----------
Those interested are to send their CV by fax to +30 210-531-1004 or by
e-mail to in...@grivas.gr, marked ATTENTION Mrs. Giannouri.
------------------------
The Greek section is just an ad for reps to pimp sample copies out to
frontistiria out in the country. Why not send in a CV? It can't hurt
at all, and the worst they can say is "no."
I wish I still had a comprehensive list of Greek ELT publishers to
give you, but you might also try:
http://www.expresspublishing.co.uk/
http://www.literabooks.com/
http://www.burlingtonbooks.com/
Good luck, DC!
Jim Karatassos
> Thank you for the replies. Jim and everyone. But I still don't
> understand why the first sentence "She never saw a bear before she
> moved to Alaska." is considered incorrect. I found quite many similar
> , so I don't think this sentence could be considered "incorrect".
> What's your opinions about it? I'd appreciate it if you could tell me
> why it is incorrect.
I would say that the example sentence isn't incorrect, just not very
well-written. I would further say that the www.englishpage.com
explanation takes a guideline and tries to turn it into a rule, or
rather, confuses a guideline that has become less and less important
over time in English with a hard-and-fast rule. This is one of the
most common failings of poorly-written grammar explanations, and is
particularly common when explaining the use of the past perfect
tenses.
-------------------------------------------------------
Parrott (above) again, speaking in 2000.
Very often, context provides SOME information about the sequence of
events. In this case, choosing between simple past and past perfect
involves making subtle judgments about how much information is
needed,
and we generally prefer to provide too much rather than to risk
misunderstanding.
--------------------------------------------------------
Your sentence:
"She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska."
There just really isn't enough clarity in this sentence to fully and
immediately justify the use of the simple past in the first clause.
DC pointed out that this kind of fuzziness is more specific to AmE
than BrE, and I would have to agree with him (I'm an AmE speaker).
Most of the examples that came up in your search from
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&hl=zh-TW&q=%22She+never+saw+a+*+bef...
are of colloquial, occasionally countrified, American English
usage...and of course, you have no way of knowing.
--------------------------------
DC (Django Cat -- who is also, FYI, a language teacher with quite a
bit of experience) is a BrE speaker. If we take our discussion on
grammar back in time -- to the tradition Swan credits as having first
excited his interest in English grammar -- this was how this guideline
was expressed in:
_A Comprehensive English Grammar for Foreign Students_, by C.E amd
J.M. Eckersley, Longman Group Ltd: London, 1960.
page 178
Some of the conjunctions with which the Past Perfect tense is often
associated are: before, when, after, once, as soon as, until, e.g.
He came round to our house BEFORE I had finished my breakfast.
WHEN/AFTER the cheering had died down, the Prime Minister began his
speech.
ONCE/AS SOON AS approval of the plans had been given, the word went
ahead rapidly.
It was not UNTIL I had read your letter that I understood the true
state of affairs.
-----------------------------------
In a respectable, specifically American ESL grammar book,
_Understanding and Using English Grammar_, 3rd edition, by Betty
Schrampfer Azar, Prentice-Hall Regents: New Jersey 1999, Azar puts it
this way.
P. 45
If either BEFORE or AFTER is used in the sentence, the past perfect is
often not necessary because the time relatuionship is already clear.
The simple past may be used, as in (e) and (g). Note: (d) and (e) have
the same meaning; (f) and (g) have the same meaning.
(d) Sam had left before Ann got there.
(e) Sam left before Ann got there.
(f) After the guests had left, I went to bed.
(g) After the guests left, I went to bed.
------------------------------------
The last BrE grammar book explaantion I can offer you is _Advanced
Grammar in Use_, 2nd edition, Martin Hewling, Cambridge University
Press, 2005. In general, I do not consider this book to be as well-
written as the others I have cited, but it's still a lot better than
almost anything you'll find free on the Internet.
Unit 5C, page 10
If the order of past events is clear from the context (for example, if
time expressions make the order clear) we can often use either the
past perfect or the past simple:
After Ivan had finished reading, he put out the light. (OR ...Ivan
finished...)
They were given help and advice before they had made the decision.
(OR ...they made...)
The two leaders agreed to meet, even though earlier talks had failed
to reach an agreeement. (OR ...talks failed...)
-------------------------------------------
Once again, a difficult answer to a difficult question, but you can
see how this has changed over time.
I'm afraid that's as clear as this problem point in English grammar is
at this time in the history of our language.
Django Cat
>On Aug 5, 1:10 pm, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.co.uk> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Sigh. Jim, if you've got two minutes, could you post a quick summary of
>>what that Greek text says? (The only words I understand are '????????
>>???ssa?', 'd?da?t???' and 'ľe e-mail'). I'm actually looking for editing
>
Thanks,Jim, I'll give it a go!
--
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>> Purl Gurl wrote:
>
>>> You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>>> and learning is a pyramid process.
>
>> You'll call me anal, as is your wont when someone points out one of
>> your English errors, but since I am not afraid of your wrath, the
>> adjective form of pyramid is pyramidal, PG.
>
>
>Which you erroneously perceive as a grammar error because
>your English language skills are so lacking you are unaware
>of this enjoyable flexibility of English language.
>
>You are rigidly flaccid.
>
>You are an anal retentive dictionary dick who has not
>a clue about effective writing.
>
>Behold the Almighty Dictionary! Fall to your knees and
>tremble lest the omnipotent Lexicon, slayer of Ozymandias,
>rip your tongue from its very roots for uttering savage
>language transgressions! Read thy palaver pyramid stone
>and pray to never speak a style otherwise,
>
>"See Jane Run. See Dick chase Jane. See Jane knocked up."
We all make errors, but people lacking in education often find it
difficult to admit them, I have noticed. Do you have a high school
diploma, PG? There is no shame to being self-taught, if you are.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Purl Gurl wrote:
>
>> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>> Purl Gurl wrote:
>
>>>> You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>>>> and learning is a pyramid process.
>
>>> You'll call me anal...adjective form of pyramid is pyramidal
>
>Most certainly! You are anal, and not the brightest
>color in the Crayon box.
>
>For all my adoring students, zealous fans and disgruntled
>subjects of my Queendom, Nair de'Well, enlightenment from
>your most illustrious blowhard queen!
>
>Crack a joke and I will have you beaten with a wiffle bat.
>
>
>You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>and learning is a pyramid process.
>
>You will not build a pyramid without a solid foundation
>and learning is a (build a) pyramid process.
>
>
>Wallah! Behold your majesty's awe inspiring literacy
>magic of smoke and mirrors! Be humbled by my powerful
>way with words, lest I loose the dictionary dogs.
God only knows where you've ventured before, PG, but smoke and mirrors
won't fool many people in this forum.