hectic as positive
Professor Redwine
positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
--
Redwine
Hamburg
(previously: Berlin, Northants, Derbs, Staffs, NSW, Tasmania,
Melbourne, rural Victoria, in that and many other orders)
Arcadian Rises
>
>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
>
>--
Many people complain about their hectic schedule but deep down they're very
proud that they're not given to routine
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
> I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in
> a positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met
> with the explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa.
> Does this match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What
> about outside SAfrE?
I occasionally use it in that sense to describe how my life has been
for the past four years: hectic -- busy, enjoyable, and quite
exciting. I think, furthermore, that only nerds, here, use it in that
very sense.
--
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
`Still using Mandrake Linux 9.0, though.'
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
If you like that kind of thing.
Hectic means feverish, overheated, or overclocked or fast-paced.
A hectic party would be a frenzied one, and some enjoy such things. Most
people I know don't call it a "hectic party", however, but a "rave".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Charles Riggs
<paul.c...@berlin.de> wrote:
>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa.
Nothing good has ever come out of South Africa, my easily-shocked
friend.
--
Charles Riggs
- Primarily northeast US upbringing
- Currently living on the west coast of Ireland; passingly
familiar with Hibernian-English expressions
- No discernable Irish accent
My email address: chriggs/at/eircom/dot/net
Moira de Swardt
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
> >positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
> >explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
> >match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside
SAfrE?
> If you like that kind of thing.
> Hectic means feverish, overheated, or overclocked or fast-paced.
> A hectic party would be a frenzied one, and some enjoy such things. Most
> people I know don't call it a "hectic party", however, but a "rave".
"Hectic" seems to be common usage in the sense of exciting and enjoyable
amongst the very young in South Africa. I think it might be specific to
Johannesburg as I didn't hear it in Kimberley or Port Elizabeth or Cape Town
when I lived there. However, what with a flat mate who's dating a
university student I probably get subjected to more of the youth than I did
before.
If I'm going to put in my own stage directions here they'll read as follows:
<:Mild shudder>
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Brandon Dienar
>>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
>>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
As I was reading this thread, I overhead a colleague tell another "jis,
it's hectic hey?" . It's used all the time here in South Africa,
especially amongst the youngsters - and is slang nowadays for anything
from "it is excellent!" to "it's too much for me!". You read into the
meaning depending on the context in which it is used.
Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the African
Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour "blue"
and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
Regards,
b
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:30:44 +0200, Professor Redwine <paul.c...@berlin.de>
>wrote:
>
>>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
>>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
>
>If you like that kind of thing.
>
>Hectic means feverish, overheated, or overclocked or fast-paced.
>
>A hectic party would be a frenzied one, and some enjoy such things. Most
>people I know don't call it a "hectic party", however, but a "rave".
I get the impression that a "rave" here is a party where drugs are
used. I'm too far out of the drug loop to know that for sure, or what
type of drugs are used. The police are constantly cracking-down on
raves, so there must be something illicit about them.
Moira de Swardt
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> I get the impression that a "rave" here is a party where drugs are
> used. I'm too far out of the drug loop to know that for sure, or what
> type of drugs are used. The police are constantly cracking-down on
> raves, so there must be something illicit about them.
No, from what I gather a rave is about the dancing. But I've certainly
never been to one. My flat mate does them, and he doesn't do drugs.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place, however,
it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
inexpensive and quite easily available here.
A high-school friend has recently committed himself to smoking and
taking drugs. He was arrested for manslaughter a month ago. He was
speeding, perhaps because he had been late to pick her girlfriend
up for a date, through a crowded junction in a rented car without a
license or any sort of authority papers when he committed the crime.
His father, who is in the army, has somehow bailed him out, but has
literally locked him up in the house. I have heard that he, now,
smokes as many as sixty cigarettes a day and is on drugs. He lives a
block away from where I live. I haven't the strength to visit him.
Areff
> The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
> preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place, however,
> it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
> inexpensive and quite easily available here.
Now you've gone and wook up Skitt.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:c8iege$beb$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
enjoyed using incense as a teenager - though I didn't smoke ganja.
--
First--That pleasure which produces no pain is to be embraced.
Second--That pain which produces no pleasure is to be avoided.
Third--That pleasure is to be avoided which prevents a greater
pleasure, or produces a greater pain.
Fourth--That pain is to be endured which averts a greater pain, or
secures a greater pleasure - Monsieur de l'Enclos
Steve Hayes
>Hi,
>
>>>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in a
>>>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met with the
>>>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does this
>>>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside SAfrE?
>
>As I was reading this thread, I overhead a colleague tell another "jis,
>it's hectic hey?" . It's used all the time here in South Africa,
>especially amongst the youngsters - and is slang nowadays for anything
>from "it is excellent!" to "it's too much for me!". You read into the
>meaning depending on the context in which it is used.
Are those the same people who say "AS well" rather than "as WELL"?
>Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the African
>Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour "blue"
>and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
"Luhlaza" covers both blue and green.
No doubt a computer is "icomputer" just like "i-offside trap" the football
commentators are always on about.
Carmen L. Abruzzi
No. A rave is a dance party with electronic music. Drugs is secondary.
The most commonly used drug at raves is caffeine. You can have a rave
without drugs, and you can certainly have a drug party that's not a
rave. It's the music that makes a rave. That and the going-all-night.
Your last sentence is truly frightening, though typical.
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
I'm not into it; so, perhaps, that's why.
Skitt
Tony Cooper
I wouldn't think that all people do all things at any event.
Non-drinkers can and do attend keg parties. Raves and "E" are linked
here in the public's mind. I'm not all that sure about the effect of
Ecstasy, but perhaps it gives them the energy to dance all night.
Tony Cooper
I post from Orlando. Read:
http://media.hyperreal.org/library/articles/ap.03apr97.html
and see how frightening my comment is.
I think when there are enough recorded arrests for dealing, enough
overdoses treated, and even the club owners admit that drugs are
problem, that "there must be something illicit about them".
Not mentioned in this article, but reported in the papers, were some
problems with the "date rape" drug being used at raves. I forget the
name of it.
raymond o'hara
rohypnol or roofies .
Michael West
> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> Not mentioned in this article, but reported in the papers, were some
>> problems with the "date rape" drug being used at raves. I forget the
>> name of it.
> rohypnol or roofies .
that's the stuff . completely fucks up your writing style .
--
m .w .
raymond o'hara
"Michael West" <mbw...@remove.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:d3erc.146$P2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
no that's not what does it .
>
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> > > I get the impression that a "rave" here is a party where drugs are
> > > used. I'm too far out of the drug loop to know that for sure, or what
> > > type of drugs are used. The police are constantly cracking-down on
> > > raves, so there must be something illicit about them.
> > No, from what I gather a rave is about the dancing. But I've certainly
> > never been to one. My flat mate does them, and he doesn't do drugs.
> Some people do make these mistakes. My brother was rather shocked that I
> enjoyed using incense as a teenager - though I didn't smoke ganja.
I've always enjoyed incense and given the right conditions still sometimes
burn it. I like the spicy ones rather than the floral ones. I smoked grass
twice. I drank an infusion thereof once. I've vomited after using the
stuff thrice. I'm not about to do further experiments.
But perhaps you're right about my flat mate being mistaken. He's three and
a half months away from being forty. He should be immune to raves by now.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> I wouldn't think that all people do all things at any event.
> Non-drinkers can and do attend keg parties. Raves and "E" are linked
> here in the public's mind. I'm not all that sure about the effect of
> Ecstasy, but perhaps it gives them the energy to dance all night.
One of the young things that worked with me a while back used to do "E". He
would frequently not sleep from Thursday night until Monday night. He
always looked like hell until Thursday. It didn't *really* surprise me that
he just didn't come back to work one day after payday. His cousin assured
us he was alright, but just didn't feel like working anymore.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> I think when there are enough recorded arrests for dealing, enough
> overdoses treated, and even the club owners admit that drugs are
> problem, that "there must be something illicit about them".
> Not mentioned in this article, but reported in the papers, were some
> problems with the "date rape" drug being used at raves. I forget the
> name of it.
Girls are constantly being warned to drink only drinks that are in sealed
containers. Wise ones still date in groups and have a trusted, designated
driver. I've served as the trusted, designated driver for a group of young
people who have been out with my flat mate a few times. Of all strange
things I even got invited to a 20th birthday party a few days ago. I must
be doing something wrong. I used to intimidate children.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> > "Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
> > > "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > I get the impression that a "rave" here is a party where drugs are
> > > > used. I'm too far out of the drug loop to know that for sure, or
what
> > > > type of drugs are used. The police are constantly cracking-down on
> > > > raves, so there must be something illicit about them.
>
> > > No, from what I gather a rave is about the dancing. But I've
certainly
> > > never been to one. My flat mate does them, and he doesn't do drugs.
>
> > Some people do make these mistakes. My brother was rather shocked that I
> > enjoyed using incense as a teenager - though I didn't smoke ganja.
>
> I've always enjoyed incense and given the right conditions still sometimes
> burn it. I like the spicy ones rather than the floral ones. I smoked
grass
> twice. I drank an infusion thereof once. I've vomited after using the
> stuff thrice. I'm not about to do further experiments.
>
gives me hay-fever now. I've enjoyed good space-cake in Amsterdam, though,
and excellent hash at the Glastonbury festival (mixed with amazing
magic-mushroom tea) but that was in another country and many years ago.
>
> But perhaps you're right about my flat mate being mistaken. He's three
and
> a half months away from being forty. He should be immune to raves by now.
>
than the menopause.
--
What are the objections to games for girls? It seems to me the chief
arguments against them are (1) that
they are injurious to health; (2) that they impair the womanliness of
woman; (3) that they mar her appearance. There may be something to be
said for these contentions, but to my mind the _pros_ materially
outweigh the _cons_. - Lawn tennis for Ladies
Ross Howard
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
"Ecstasy" nowadays is little more than a tabloid catch-all term for a
number of different compounds. The original (accept no substitute) is
MDMA, which, rather than giving you energy à la speed/cocaine, just
makes you so happy ("ecstatic", if you like) about what you're doing
-- dancing and touchy-feely stuff usually, although many people also
use it to enhance the sensory perception of other, non-ravey,
activities, such as walking on the beach or stroking the cat (not,
despite pupular belief, much shagging usually, since the initial
skin-stroking foreplay is so mindblowing that the fiddling-with-bits
stage just seems like too much hard work) -- that you simply don't
notice the hours whizzing by. However, many street drugs sold as
ecstasy these days actually contain little or no MDMA, but instead
have a small amount of amphetamine or even just caffeine as their
active ingredient, to con the gullible into thinking, "Hey, it's 6
a.m. and I'm still dancing -- gooooood pill!"
--
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>On Thu, 20 May 2004 12:19:14 -0700, "Carmen L. Abruzzi"
GHB -- often (misleadingly, as with ketamine) called "liquid ecstasy".
--
Ross Howard
Brandon Dienar
>>Not mentioned in this article, but reported in the papers, were some
>>problems with the "date rape" drug being used at raves. I forget the
>>name of it.
>
>
> GHB -- often (misleadingly, as with ketamine) called "liquid ecstasy".
There were also some warnings about the blue juice (GHB) but I think
Tony was referring to rohypnol or "roofies" as correctly mentioned by
Raymond. It makes you forget everything that happened the night before.
As for raves - there are hardly any more happening in South Africa but
the wave (of rave?) that was about 5 years ago was huge parties with
good music and more people out of their minds than you could possibly
imagine - and you would see things that would make you shudder. Anyone
who has ever gone to a rave will know exactly what I'm talking about.
They sometimes had police crackdowns but I think people generally got
tired of the drugs, music and the scene. Now it's smaller venues with
less drugs and alcahol again seems to be the drug of choice.
b.
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> The mid-life crisis can do peculiar things to chaps. It's a bit more
subtle
> than the menopause.
It's not a mid-life crisis. I live with someone who thinks he's Peter Pan.
No real sense of responsibility for most things is part of it. I phoned
from the office this morning at about the time he should be awake but
wasn't - he works fairly late most evenings while I'm usually slaving away
just after dawn - to be told that I could fetch him for work in an hour. I
usually drop him at work - it's a six or seven kilometer round trip and it
gives me an opportunity to enjoy a cuppachino at the restaurant and to
discuss little domestic things with him. When I arrived to fetch him one
hour and fifteen minutes later he got out of bed. That's quite a chunk out
of my work day. :-(
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Franklin Cacciutto
rages," we are happy about that, although he isn't. It suggests a
well-deserved poisoning and corruption and disruption of the king's own
body for having so corrupted and distupted Denmark. He is getting what
he fully deserves, as Shakespeare suggests all such poisoners and liars
and manipulators eventually will. He is what is "rotten" in Denmark. So
here the word "hectic" foreshadows his death by his own poison at the
end of the play, and a deeply magical poetic justice.
Franklin
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>
> > The mid-life crisis can do peculiar things to chaps. It's a bit more
> subtle
> > than the menopause.
>
> It's not a mid-life crisis. I live with someone who thinks he's Peter
Pan.
>
>
> No real sense of responsibility for most things is part of it. I phoned
> from the office this morning at about the time he should be awake but
> wasn't - he works fairly late most evenings while I'm usually slaving away
> just after dawn - to be told that I could fetch him for work in an hour.
I
> usually drop him at work - it's a six or seven kilometer round trip and it
> gives me an opportunity to enjoy a cuppachino at the restaurant and to
> discuss little domestic things with him. When I arrived to fetch him one
> hour and fifteen minutes later he got out of bed. That's quite a chunk
out
> of my work day. :-(
>
sloth - they have similar levels of activity. In fact sloths have algae
growing on them as the algae haven't worked out that the sloth is, in fact,
motile.
--
"That," he said, "is a distinguished civilian, John Stuart Mill. He
was an authority on political economy."
"Why?" asked Bertie.
"Well, he wanted to be; he thought it was a useful thing to be."
Bertie gave an expressive grunt, which conveyed his opinion that
there was no accounting for tastes. - Saki, The Toys of Peace
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> Yes, it is something of a problem. Maybe he should re-classify himself as
a
> sloth - they have similar levels of activity. In fact sloths have algae
> growing on them as the algae haven't worked out that the sloth is, in
fact,
> motile.
Mark is not inactive at all. He's just active much later in the day than I
am. I often feel guilty about the fact that he works all day at the
restaurant and then bustles off into the kitchen two or three times a week
to prepare and serve me a fabulous dinner. On a really bad day I might
even feel guilty enough to get my own pre-dinner drink and offer Mark one,
too. He still has to do the wine. I refuse to admit I know how to operate
a corkscrew unless there is a national emergency of some sort involving
corkscrews and bottles of wine. But mostly I just shout encouraging
comments from the lounge, such as "I think we have some crumbed Camenbert
somewhere in the fridge - would you like me to heat it in the microwave?" I
usually suggest the most inappropriate cooking method designed to horrify
Mark although he does know that I can cook and even do in an emergency such
as a total refusal on his behalf to do anything other than the wine. This
usually prompts him to offer me another drink in the hopes that I'll stay
out of the kitchen. However there are rare moments when he demands that I
prepare something but not too many of them. We have rather different
cooking styles. I'd bake the crumbed Camenbert. Mark may fry it.and I
don't want to know that. He'd probably serve the sauce over the cheese
while I'd do it as a separate sauce in a little sauce dish. I don't like my
food to float in various things whereas Mark seems to be incapable of
preparing anything without a sauce or two.
We're having crumbed Camenbert for starters tonight, followed by some
kingklip prepared by Mark in a sauce of some description with a salad and
some fresh peas and some boiled baby potatoes in parsley butter. And sago
pudding.
I can be persuaded to do dishes by virtue of the fact that I hate a sinkful
of dirty dishes more than Mark does.
Mind you, I'm usually quite happy to prepare a real breakfast and serve it
to him wherever he wants it. If I don't he just eats rice crispies with low
fat milk and powdered sweetener. Ugh! I think that's all he can manage for
the first few hours after waking.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Laura F Spira
(Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have Moira's, please?
I had to look up kingklip: I assume that Mark is cooking fish rather
than roofing materials. And sago pudding: yummy!
--
Laura, posting from a.u.e
(emulate St. George for email)
Moira de Swardt
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have Moira's, please?
Be careful what you pray for as it may be granted.
> I had to look up kingklip: I assume that Mark is cooking fish rather
> than roofing materials. And sago pudding: yummy!
Kingklip is one of South Africa's finest sea foods, along with yellowtail.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
david56
Oh dear, on closer inspection it didn't say what I thought.
> (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have Moira's, please?
>
> I had to look up kingklip: I assume that Mark is cooking fish rather
> than roofing materials. And sago pudding: yummy!
There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
moment.
--
David
=====
conciliator
"Brandon Dienar" <bra...@isdial.net> wrote in message
news:I-udnWiV_5x...@is.co.za...
> Hi,
>
> >>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in
a
> >>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met
with the
> >>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does
this
> >>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about outside
SAfrE?
>
> As I was reading this thread, I overhead a colleague tell another
"jis,
> it's hectic hey?" . It's used all the time here in South Africa,
> especially amongst the youngsters - and is slang nowadays for anything
> from "it is excellent!" to "it's too much for me!". You read into the
> meaning depending on the context in which it is used.
>
> Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour
"blue"
> and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
>
So if I have a blue and green computer, there's no point in telling a
Zulu about it?? :>)
Skitt
[...]
> But mostly I just shout encouraging comments from the lounge,
> such as "I think we have some crumbed Camenbert somewhere in the
> fridge - would you like me to heat it in the microwave?"
]...]
> I'd bake the crumbed Camenbert.
[...]
> We're having crumbed Camenbert for starters tonight, followed by some
> kingklip prepared by Mark in a sauce of some description with a salad
> and some fresh peas and some boiled baby potatoes in parsley butter.
OK, that's thrice. I would not have said anything about once or twice, but
thrice is too much. Camembert. Bon appétit!
Skitt
> Girls are constantly being warned to drink only drinks that are in
> sealed containers. Wise ones still date in groups and have a
> trusted, designated driver. I've served as the trusted, designated
> driver for a group of young people who have been out with my flat
> mate a few times. Of all strange things I even got invited to a 20th
> birthday party a few days ago. I must be doing something wrong. I
> used to intimidate children.
I was just wondering -- why is your mate so flat that you keep mentioning
it?
(Don't mind me, as I'm just funnin'. I don't really care what your flatmate
is like.)
Sara Lorimer
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>
> > The mid-life crisis can do peculiar things to chaps. It's a bit more
> subtle
> > than the menopause.
>
> It's not a mid-life crisis. I live with someone who thinks he's Peter Pan.
This guy? I thought he lived in Florida, not South Africa.
http://www.pixyland.org/peterpan/photo_closeups_pp4.htm
--
SML
http://pirate-women.com
Tony Cooper
Please point that these pictures are *not* of me. Since I live in
Florida, people may assume that they are.
Sara Lorimer
OK. Those are not pictures of Tony. Got that, everyone? Do _not_ think
of Tony when you look at them. Nothing at all to do with him. Mmm-hmmm.
--
SML
http://pirate-women.com
Dr Robin Bignall
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
[..]
>And sago pudding: yummy!
Is that the stuff that looks (and maybe tastes) like frog spawn?
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
There are two schools on this, and, I think, properly. One school thinks
that the diner decides what combination of food and sauce (or salad and
dressing) suits him. The other knows that most diners will get it wrong and
prepares the overall dish to be correct as envisaged by the chef. This is
not a problem for a restaurant but, if there is daily food production it can
be. A chef in the latter category can be encouraged to modify the sauces -
but not to leave them out.
Sauce boats are, in my opinion, a bad idea as even the best sauce is
compromised if so cooled and kept from the hot plate and hot food it loses
its essential being. They are best for mint 'sauce' that can't be
compromised.
--
'It is quite a dark day' - Emma, on opening the curtains to prove that night
is in fact day
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:50:40 +0100, Laura F Spira
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>
>>And sago pudding: yummy!
>
>
> Is that the stuff that looks (and maybe tastes) like frog spawn?
>
Yeah! Memories of school dinners circa 1946. Yuk. Same goes for tapioca,
which I am led to believe is really the same thing, but looked like
semolina (another nasty) with lumps in.
--
Rob Bannister
Gary G. Taylor
> Yeah! Memories of school dinners circa 1946. Yuk. Same goes for tapioca,
> which I am led to believe is really the same thing, but looked like
> semolina (another nasty) with lumps in.
"IT has lumps in it," said the philosopher.
--
Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA
gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org
"The two most abundant things in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:50:40 +0100, Laura F Spira
><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[..]
>
>>And sago pudding: yummy!
>
>Is that the stuff that looks (and maybe tastes) like frog spawn?
Yup. That's what we called it at school -- frogs' eggs.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
That reminds me of something I used to confront when I was very
young. I would write down an essay and have my mother check it. If
I didn't know how to spell a particular word, and there were a number
of instances of that word in the essay, I would spell it incorrectly
throughout. My mother reading the essay, would catch the first one and
tell me the correct spelling. She would then catch the other, grumble
about it, catch another, retort why I have made the same mistake again,
catch yet another, get frustrated, so on and so forth. I used to tell
her that if I knew how to spell it correctly, I wouldn't have made the
mistake. And I had to tell her that everytime it happened.
--
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
`Still using Mandrake Linux 9.0, though.'
conciliator
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40acf956....@news.saix.net...
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 13:23:23 +0200, Brandon Dienar
<bra...@isdial.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >>>I recently (fifteen minutes ago) encountered the use of "hectic" in
a
> >>>positive sense, to mean exciting and enjoyable. My shock was met
with the
> >>>explanation that it is a very common usage in South Africa. Does
this
> >>>match with the experience of aue-ers and aeu-ers? What about
outside SAfrE?
> >
> >As I was reading this thread, I overhead a colleague tell another
"jis,
> >it's hectic hey?" . It's used all the time here in South Africa,
> >especially amongst the youngsters - and is slang nowadays for
anything
> >from "it is excellent!" to "it's too much for me!". You read into the
> >meaning depending on the context in which it is used.
>
>
> >Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the African
> >Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour
"blue"
> >and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
>
>
> No doubt a computer is "icomputer" just like "i-offside trap" the
football
> commentators are always on about.
>
>
And a bakkie is known as an i-Suzu
conciliator
And a nice thick slice of kabeljouw (cob) done slowly on a braai
(barbeque) with a doctored lemon/butter sauce for constant basting takes
a lot of beating.
Moira de Swardt
"conciliator" <avoi...@home.com> wrote in message
> "Brandon Dienar" <bra...@isdial.net> wrote in message
> > Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the African
> > Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour
> "blue"
> > and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
> So if I have a blue and green computer, there's no point in telling a
> Zulu about it?? :>)
You have a blue and green computer? Wow! That's could go in either my
lounge or my former dining room, the one I sacrificed so that Mark would
have somewhere to put his bed. The irony is that Mark and I have more
dinner parties than I ever had on my own. That might be due to the fact
that Mark sees everything as an excuse for a party.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"conciliator" <avoi...@home.com> wrote in message
> And a nice thick slice of kabeljouw (cob) done slowly on a braai
> (barbeque) with a doctored lemon/butter sauce for constant basting takes
> a lot of beating.
I believe you, but I've only once ever had a good fish braai. The irony was
that it was tuna kebabs purchased from Woolworths (they seem to have
disappeared from the shelves) and cooked in the Kruger Park of all places.
I went up to the Park with a friend who doesn't eat red meat at all so we
did fish and chicken only for four days. The tuna was really fabulous.
Oh, and the time we had crayfish (lobsters for the foreigners) on the beach
at Lamberts Bay takes a lot of beating too. But I think that was more about
the ambiance of the weekend than specifically the food.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
What did you think it said?
> > (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have Moira's,
please?
> There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
> moment.
Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
Surveying the packet from the bin. The Camembert was delicious. Thanks for
pointing out the error - it's they way I've been saying it. That will also
be corrected.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother.
CyberCypher
> "david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> Laura F Spira typed thus:
>> > Moira's,
> please?
>
>> There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
>> moment.
>
> Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
"fewer bills". After that oyable, I would suggest that Laura think
thrice about swapping lives.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Moira de Swardt
> There are two schools on this, and, I think, properly. One school thinks
> that the diner decides what combination of food and sauce (or salad and
> dressing) suits him. The other knows that most diners will get it wrong
and
> prepares the overall dish to be correct as envisaged by the chef. This is
> not a problem for a restaurant but, if there is daily food production it
can
> be. A chef in the latter category can be encouraged to modify the sauces -
> but not to leave them out.
We had a cranberry sauce with the Camembert. Served in Japanese bowls which
pleased me. I had everyone's remnants poured over my chocolate cake at
midnight. Now if Mark had his way the sauce would have been splashed over
the hot cheese, and most of it would have been wasted because we didn't eat
all of it with the cheese. The tragedy is that I would have been unable to
have the remnants over my cake.
I really resent any place which assumes that diners are not entitled to eat
their food whichever way they want, including <shudder> with copious
quantities of store bought tomato sauce if they so desire. I dislike large
dollops of mayonnaise, but am forced to endure same whenever I order a dish
which has a mayonnaise base unless the person preparing the food can be
persuaded to genuinely half the quantity and to dilute the rest
appropriately - with milk or vinegar or wine or yoghurt ...
Mark has a tendency to cook with fruit and I tend to prefer my food without
cooked fruit in every dish. Especially banana and pineapple.
> Sauce boats are, in my opinion, a bad idea as even the best sauce is
> compromised if so cooled and kept from the hot plate and hot food it loses
> its essential being. They are best for mint 'sauce' that can't be
> compromised.
I follow your reasoning. But food floating in sauce is a little daunting to
those of us who don't do miscellaneous sauces with unidentifiable
ingredients.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Sara Lorimer" <sl560_del...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
> > It's not a mid-life crisis. I live with someone who thinks he's Peter
Pan.
> This guy? I thought he lived in Florida, not South Africa.
> http://www.pixyland.org/peterpan/photo_closeups_pp4.htm
Mark is not quite that camp, dear. Not even at Pride festivals. :-)
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Laura F Spira
> Moira de Swardt wrote on 22 May 2004:
>
>>"david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>Laura F Spira typed thus:
>>
> [...]
>
>>>>(Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have
>>>>Moira's,
>>>
>>please?
>>
>>
>>>There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
>>>moment.
>>
>>Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
>
>
> "fewer bills". After that oyable, I would suggest that Laura think
> thrice about swapping lives.
>
Don't be so cruel, Franke. Moira's a guest in aue who seems to have
wandered in via crossposting. I don't want her to be frightened away
before I have found out a lot more about what sounds like a blissful
existence and whether I stand any chance of tempting Mark to come to
Oxford and cooked crumbed (BrE breaded) Camembert for me.
--
Laura
Moira de Swardt
"CyberCypher" <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote on 22 May 2004:
> > "david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >> Laura F Spira typed thus:
> [...]
> >> > (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have
> >> > Moira's,
> > please?
> >> There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
> >> moment.
> > Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
> "fewer bills". After that oyable, I would suggest that Laura think
> thrice about swapping lives.
I write from soc.culture.south-africa. My stylistic writing should be
treated gently. Laura may well be relieved to spend time in company where
enjoyment is more to be sought after than grammatical accuracy.
However, your point is noted. With the connotations going on in another
thread on soc.culture.south-africa.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
> Don't be so cruel, Franke. Moira's a guest in aue who seems to have
> wandered in via crossposting. I don't want her to be frightened away
> before I have found out a lot more about what sounds like a blissful
> existence and whether I stand any chance of tempting Mark to come to
> Oxford and cooked crumbed (BrE breaded) Camembert for me.
His culinary skills are not restricted to crumbed Camembert.
Mark also does foot massages and pedicures. :-) But he wants back rubs in
return.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
CyberCypher
>
> "CyberCypher" <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
>> Moira de Swardt wrote on 22 May 2004:
>> > "david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> >> Laura F Spira typed thus:
>> [...]
>> >> > (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have
>> >> > Moira's,
>> > please?
>
>> >> There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
>> >> moment.
>
>> > Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
>
>> "fewer bills". After that oyable, I would suggest that Laura
>> think thrice about swapping lives.
>
> I write from soc.culture.south-africa. My stylistic writing
> should be treated gently. Laura may well be relieved to spend
> time in company where enjoyment is more to be sought after than
> grammatical accuracy.
For some of us, grammatical accuracy both is and provides a form of
enjoyment, but I will heed Laura's advice and leave all further
grammatical and usage comments to Steve Hayes, a fellow South African.
> However, your point is noted. With the connotations going on in
> another thread on soc.culture.south-africa.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> "conciliator" <avoi...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> > And a nice thick slice of kabeljouw (cob) done slowly on a braai
> > (barbeque) with a doctored lemon/butter sauce for constant basting takes
> > a lot of beating.
>
> I believe you, but I've only once ever had a good fish braai. The irony
was
> that it was tuna kebabs purchased from Woolworths (they seem to have
> disappeared from the shelves) and cooked in the Kruger Park of all places.
> I went up to the Park with a friend who doesn't eat red meat at all so we
> did fish and chicken only for four days. The tuna was really fabulous.
>
impressed me, was in the hole in the roof at the top of the Telkom building
in Roggebaai and featured snoek. The bizarre location helped, I think, to
make in memorable.
--
"I can generally manage to attend to more than one thing at a time," said
Serena, rashly; "I think I must have a sort of double brain."
"Much better to economise and have one really good one," observed Lady
Caroline. - Saki The Unbearable Bassington
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> ">
> I really resent any place which assumes that diners are not entitled to
eat
> their food whichever way they want, including <shudder> with copious
> quantities of store bought tomato sauce if they so desire. I dislike
large
> dollops of mayonnaise, but am forced to endure same whenever I order a
dish
> which has a mayonnaise base unless the person preparing the food can be
> persuaded to genuinely half the quantity and to dilute the rest
> appropriately - with milk or vinegar or wine or yoghurt ...
>
good for the prostate.
>
> Mark has a tendency to cook with fruit and I tend to prefer my food
without
> cooked fruit in every dish. Especially banana and pineapple.
>
magnificent meal in a roadside restaurant in Alsace-Lorraine once that
included steak, banana and avocado, I didn't expect to enjoy it, but it
really was very good indeed. Something about the mixture of German and
French cuisine there makes it better than either on their own.
>
> > Sauce boats are, in my opinion, a bad idea as even the best sauce is
> > compromised if so cooled and kept from the hot plate and hot food it
loses
> > its essential being. They are best for mint 'sauce' that can't be
> > compromised.
>
> I follow your reasoning. But food floating in sauce is a little daunting
to
> those of us who don't do miscellaneous sauces with unidentifiable
> ingredients.
>
the point of a sauce - otherwise you might as well just eat the components.
The French have it that 'ls sauce es tout' which I think I agree with.
--
First--That pleasure which produces no pain is to be embraced.
Second--That pain which produces no pleasure is to be avoided.
Third--That pleasure is to be avoided which prevents a greater
pleasure, or produces a greater pain.
Fourth--That pain is to be endured which averts a greater pain, or
secures a greater pleasure - Monsieur de l'Enclos
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>On Sat, 22 May 2004 00:01:42 +0100, Dr Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:50:40 +0100, Laura F Spira
>><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>[..]
>>
>>>And sago pudding: yummy!
>>
>>Is that the stuff that looks (and maybe tastes) like frog spawn?
>
>Yup. That's what we called it at school -- frogs' eggs.
Yeah, I thought so. I had to eat it at home from time to time, for school
was near enough to walk home from for dinner (which is called 'lunch' these
days - we're all middle class now). In contrast, my mum's rice pudding made
in the oven was scrumptious.
The only stuff that looked worse on the plate than sago or tapioca was my
mother's tripe and onions, which resembled something the cat had vomited.
The traditional way to cook tripe in England is to simmer it for hours in
milk. Yuk! It's quite palatable if it's cooked in the French way, in a
brownish sauce.
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>
>"Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
>news:c8nc3k$t7f$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>>
>> ">
>> I really resent any place which assumes that diners are not entitled to
>eat
>> their food whichever way they want, including <shudder> with copious
>> quantities of store bought tomato sauce if they so desire. I dislike
>large
>> dollops of mayonnaise, but am forced to endure same whenever I order a
>dish
>> which has a mayonnaise base unless the person preparing the food can be
>> persuaded to genuinely half the quantity and to dilute the rest
>> appropriately - with milk or vinegar or wine or yoghurt ...
>>
>The very best hotels will always provide tomato ketchup if asked - it is
>good for the prostate.
>>
>> Mark has a tendency to cook with fruit and I tend to prefer my food
>without
>> cooked fruit in every dish. Especially banana and pineapple.
>>
>I couldn't agree more! How horrible. Though, having said that, I had a
>magnificent meal in a roadside restaurant in Alsace-Lorraine once that
>included steak, banana and avocado, I didn't expect to enjoy it, but it
>really was very good indeed. Something about the mixture of German and
>French cuisine there makes it better than either on their own.
>>
If you've seen the film "Chocolat" you'll have noticed that the roast
chicken was served with chocolate sauce at the party. I've had this sauce
in the south of France and the Perigord. It's made out of very bitter, dark
chocolate and is superb.
Michael West
> If you've seen the film "Chocolat" you'll have noticed that the roast
> chicken was served with chocolate sauce at the party. I've had this sauce
> in the south of France and the Perigord. It's made out of very bitter,
dark
> chocolate and is superb.
Sounds similar to mole (two syllables) sauce, of which there
are many varieties, well-known to lovers of Mexican cuisine.
--
Michael West
meirman
haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes) posted:
>
>>Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the African
>>Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour "blue"
>>and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
>
>"Luhlaza" covers both blue and green.
I had a Pontiac that Pontiac said was Mariner Turquoise. I thought it
was a shade of green but my friend thought it was a ahade of blue.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
meirman
Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> posted:
>
>"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>> "Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
>> > "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
>> > > I get the impression that a "rave" here is a party where drugs are
>> > > used. I'm too far out of the drug loop to know that for sure, or what
>> > > type of drugs are used. The police are constantly cracking-down on
>> > > raves, so there must be something illicit about them.
>
>> > No, from what I gather a rave is about the dancing. But I've certainly
>> > never been to one. My flat mate does them, and he doesn't do drugs.
>
>> Some people do make these mistakes. My brother was rather shocked that I
>> enjoyed using incense as a teenager - though I didn't smoke ganja.
>
>I've always enjoyed incense and given the right conditions still sometimes
>burn it. I like the spicy ones rather than the floral ones. I smoked grass
>twice. I drank an infusion thereof once. I've vomited after using the
>stuff thrice. I'm not about to do further experiments.
>
>But perhaps you're right about my flat mate being mistaken. He's three and
>a half months away from being forty. He should be immune to raves by now.
Unless he's going to find girls.
>
>Moira, the Faerie Godmother
meirman
Khan <resi...@myrealbox.com> posted:
>
>The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
>preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place, however,
>it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
>inexpensive and quite easily available here.
>
>A high-school friend has recently committed himself to smoking and
>taking drugs. He was arrested for manslaughter a month ago. He was
>speeding, perhaps because he had been late to pick her girlfriend
>up for a date, through a crowded junction in a rented car without a
>license or any sort of authority papers when he committed the crime.
>His father, who is in the army, has somehow bailed him out, but has
You haven't complained, like some do, but...
FTR, the operative principle in the US is innocent until proven
guilty. So that in theory, no one should spend time in jail until
after he is convicted. That includes accused and actual murderers,
for example, who are also considered innocent until proven guilty.
The purpose of requiring bail is not to make it difficult to get out
of jail pending trial, but to insure the defendant's presence in court
whenever he is supposed to be there.
Since the guy in question is in high school, he's not likely to have
the means to flee, or flee successfully. If he does leave, the cost
of finding him and bringing him back is paid for out of the bail, and
I think all or part** of the rest of the bail is normally forfeited to
the court. If a bailbondsman has put up the bail, he forfeits the
money and then has to collet it from someone who has not paid cash but
has posted collateral, like his house.
In most or all states, I think if someone posts cash, they only expect
10% of the bail to actually be posted. The person must sign some sort
of note for the other 90%, and probably has to agree to a lien on his
house or savings or business, which he probably has to prove that he
owns.
**I'm not sure how much is forfeited. If all of it were always
forfeited, there would be no incentive for a bailbondsman to hire a
detective to find the defendant. If all of it were always forfeited,
there would be no one and no money with which to pay a bounty hunter.
But personally, I don't think it would if the bailbondsman could
deduct only his actual expenses. There must be a penalty or other
charges on whoever puts up the bond.
Do they have bounty hunters in the UK, and if not, what do you do when
someone skips bail.
I get the impression that most fugitives are pretty easy to find, that
they hide at friend's or ex-friend's places or other standard places.
The measure of how well the bail system is working from the
bailbondsman's pov is what he is charging and if he is making a
profit. If too many people were fleeing, he would have to raise his
prices. If he raised his prices too high, someone else like Wal-mart
would enter the business.
The only real measure of how well the bail system is working, from a
public pov, would be how many people successfully flee before their
trial or imprisonment, or before paying any fines due. You didn't
complain, but I do hear complaints by other citizens about bail (which
I think are usually based on their idea that the defendants are
certainly guilty and should be in jail already). But since I don't
hear anything like that from police or prosecutors, I'm thinking that
the few who do flee successfully (20 to 50 a year? just a guess), that
is, are not caught and returned, are a very very small percentage
>literally locked him up in the house. I have heard that he, now,
>smokes as many as sixty cigarettes a day and is on drugs. He lives a
>block away from where I live. I haven't the strength to visit him.
meirman
Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> posted:
>
>"conciliator" <avoi...@home.com> wrote in message
>
>
>Oh, and the time we had crayfish (lobsters for the foreigners) on the beach
Just ftr, in the US they are different. Lobster live in saltwater,
and crayfish are much smaller and live in fresh water. The latter are
popular for food in Louisiana and I think a lot of other places. Ones
about an inch long or less used to live in the stream behind my house.
>at Lamberts Bay takes a lot of beating too. But I think that was more about
>the ambiance of the weekend than specifically the food.
>
>Moira, the Faerie Godmother
>
meirman
Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> posted:
>
>The only stuff that looked worse on the plate than sago or tapioca was my
>mother's tripe and onions, which resembled something the cat had vomited.
>The traditional way to cook tripe in England is to simmer it for hours in
>milk. Yuk! It's quite palatable if it's cooked in the French way, in a
>brownish sauce.
You know in the US, tripe is another word for something bad, unwanted.
Robert Bannister
I've had something similar in a Mexican restaurant.
--
Rob Bannister
Dylan Nicholson
news:t700b0pvv1r9s116g...@4ax.com...
>
> You know in the US, tripe is another word for something bad, unwanted.
>
Michael West
Not in answer to your question, but
interestingly, the French use "tripe"
in the sense of "guts" -- i.e., intestinal
fortitude.
--
Michael West
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>In alt.english.usage on Thu, 20 May 2004 20:14:47 +0600 Ayaz Ahmed
>Khan <resi...@myrealbox.com> posted:
>
>>
>>The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
>>preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place, however,
>>it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
>>inexpensive and quite easily available here.
>>
>>A high-school friend has recently committed himself to smoking and
>>taking drugs. He was arrested for manslaughter a month ago. He was
>>speeding, perhaps because he had been late to pick her girlfriend
>>up for a date, through a crowded junction in a rented car without a
>>license or any sort of authority papers when he committed the crime.
>>His father, who is in the army, has somehow bailed him out, but has
>
>You haven't complained, like some do, but...
>
>FTR, the operative principle in the US is innocent until proven
>guilty. So that in theory, no one should spend time in jail until
>after he is convicted. That includes accused and actual murderers,
>for example, who are also considered innocent until proven guilty.
Bail is set at the discretion of the judge in murder cases. The judge
can refuse to set bail.
>The purpose of requiring bail is not to make it difficult to get out
>of jail pending trial, but to insure the defendant's presence in court
>whenever he is supposed to be there.
>
>Since the guy in question is in high school, he's not likely to have
>the means to flee, or flee successfully.
If the defendant is the son or daughter of a wealthy person, it is
entirely possible that a parent would spirit him or her out the
country.
> If he does leave, the cost
>of finding him and bringing him back is paid for out of the bail, and
>I think all or part** of the rest of the bail is normally forfeited to
>the court.
The entire amount of the bail is returned. If a bailbondsman is used,
the bailbondsman takes a fee no matter what. If the individual puts
up bail, it is all returned if the charges are dropped or the person
shows up in court.
>In most or all states, I think if someone posts cash, they only expect
>10% of the bail to actually be posted. The person must sign some sort
>of note for the other 90%, and probably has to agree to a lien on his
>house or savings or business, which he probably has to prove that he
>owns.
Any part, or all, of the bail may be put up in cash.
>
I once posted bail for a friend of one of my children. The bail was
$1,500, and I put it all up in cash. The parents were out of the
country. The charges were eventually dropped, and I got a check back
from the court system for the full $1,500.
If I remember correctly, the kid would have had to pay a bondsman $150
in cash which would have been non-returnable and considered the
bondsman's fee. I don't think the bondsman has to actually put up the
difference. I think he has a surety bond that pays the court if the
person doesn't show up.
Areff
> I once posted bail for a friend of one of my children. The bail was
> $1,500, and I put it all up in cash. The parents were out of the
> country. The charges were eventually dropped, and I got a check back
> from the court system for the full $1,500.
No interest? Oy!
--
meirman
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> posted:
>On Sat, 22 May 2004 21:20:31 -0400, meirman <mei...@invalid.com>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.english.usage on Thu, 20 May 2004 20:14:47 +0600 Ayaz Ahmed
>>Khan <resi...@myrealbox.com> posted:
>>
>>>
>>>The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
>>>preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place, however,
>>>it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
>>>inexpensive and quite easily available here.
>>>
>>>A high-school friend has recently committed himself to smoking and
>>>taking drugs. He was arrested for manslaughter a month ago. He was
>>>speeding, perhaps because he had been late to pick her girlfriend
>>>up for a date, through a crowded junction in a rented car without a
>>>license or any sort of authority papers when he committed the crime.
>>>His father, who is in the army, has somehow bailed him out, but has
>>
>>You haven't complained, like some do, but...
>>
>>FTR, the operative principle in the US is innocent until proven
>>guilty. So that in theory, no one should spend time in jail until
>>after he is convicted. That includes accused and actual murderers,
>>for example, who are also considered innocent until proven guilty.
>
>Bail is set at the discretion of the judge in murder cases. The judge
>can refuse to set bail.
Right. My statement that "this includes murderers" was subject to the
previous sentence about "in theory", no one should spend time in jail.
I hope that wasn't totally obscrure. How much people have to lose if
convicted is also considered in deciding how likely they are to flee.
>>The purpose of requiring bail is not to make it difficult to get out
>>of jail pending trial, but to insure the defendant's presence in court
>>whenever he is supposed to be there.
>>
>>Since the guy in question is in high school, he's not likely to have
>>the means to flee, or flee successfully.
>
>If the defendant is the son or daughter of a wealthy person, it is
>entirely possible that a parent would spirit him or her out the
>country.
Yes, if the crime charged is great enough. I don't think many, even
who could afford it, would do that for manslaughter if it were a first
offense, for a juvenile,** even if there were drug charges too. I
figured the odds were that Ayaz's friend wasn't in that situation.But
probably not for manslaughter
I don't know the rules for charging a juvenile as an adult. I hope
there are strict rules, because I don't like the discretionary aspect
of it. It seems to violate the principle that society is to be on
notice of what the law is, even if the individual doesn't have to be
under American law. I think if charged as a juvenile, someone can't
be confined past the age of 18, but if charged as an adult, the limit
is much longer/further/older/which is the right word?.
>> If he does leave, the cost
>>of finding him and bringing him back is paid for out of the bail, and
>>I think all or part** of the rest of the bail is normally forfeited to
>>the court.
>
>The entire amount of the bail is returned. If a bailbondsman is used,
>the bailbondsman takes a fee no matter what. If the individual puts
>up bail, it is all returned if the charges are dropped or the person
>shows up in court.
I was talking just above if he doesn't show up in court. Are you
saying if he misses a hearing, but is captured and attends the next
one, he gets all his bail back?
>>In most or all states, I think if someone posts cash, they only expect
>>10% of the bail to actually be posted. The person must sign some sort
>>of note for the other 90%, and probably has to agree to a lien on his
>>house or savings or business, which he probably has to prove that he
>>owns.
>
>Any part, or all, of the bail may be put up in cash.
>>
>I once posted bail for a friend of one of my children. The bail was
>$1,500, and I put it all up in cash. The parents were out of the
>country. The charges were eventually dropped, and I got a check back
>from the court system for the full $1,500.
>
>If I remember correctly, the kid would have had to pay a bondsman $150
>in cash which would have been non-returnable and considered the
>bondsman's fee. I don't think the bondsman has to actually put up the
>difference. I think he has a surety bond that pays the court if the
>person doesn't show up.
As the judge says, "Cash or bond", but it amounts to almost the same
thing for the bondsman, because either he or the insurance? company
will have to pay the full 1500, and the more often the insurance has
to pay, the higher his rates will be.
And for some charges, people are released without bond, especially if
they have a job, are listed in the phone book, and own their own home.
It reminds me that I heard on click and clack about two teenagers
whose parents were out of the country, who took polaroids of
everything in the house, then moved everything to the basement, put
blankets over the windows to muffle the sound, and had a big party.
By the time their parents got home, everything was back exactly where
it was, using the photos, and the parents didn't suspect a thing....
except a mirror got broken. Eventually the truth came out. But no
one even called the police in this case.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Moira de Swardt wrote on 22 May 2004:
>
>>
>> "CyberCypher" <cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
>>> Moira de Swardt wrote on 22 May 2004:
>>> > "david56" <bass.c...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>> >> Laura F Spira typed thus:
>>> [...]
>>> >> > (Cross thread alert) If we're swapping lives, may I have
>>> >> > Moira's,
>>> > please?
>>
>>> >> There's way too much life swapping going on around here at the
>>> >> moment.
>>
>>> > Shhh, I'm hoping Laura has more money and less bills than I.
>>
>>> "fewer bills". After that oyable, I would suggest that Laura
>>> think thrice about swapping lives.
>>
>> I write from soc.culture.south-africa. My stylistic writing
>> should be treated gently. Laura may well be relieved to spend
>> time in company where enjoyment is more to be sought after than
>> grammatical accuracy.
>
>For some of us, grammatical accuracy both is and provides a form of
>enjoyment, but I will heed Laura's advice and leave all further
>grammatical and usage comments to Steve Hayes, a fellow South African.
For what it's worth, I agree with you about "fewer".
When I went to England to study, I made a list of things where British usage
seemed to differ from South African:
SA English British English
fewer less
supper tea
circle roundabout
robot traffic light
bioscope cinema
stove cooker
washing machine washer
paint decorate
and so on.
But some elements of British usage, like "less" instead of "fewer" have been
creeping in here.
Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of "the
government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has decided".
I suspect that a lot of these were brought back from Britain by returning ANC
exiles inn the early 1990s, and were reinforced by the end of sanctions and
the appearance of British TV programmes on our screens.
Soe of the newer Brit fashions haven't reached us yet though - using "remit"
as a noun, for example, thought "punters" for people other than boozy old men
who bet on the horses is also beginning to appear.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
R H Draney
>
>I had a Pontiac that Pontiac said was Mariner Turquoise. I thought it
>was a shade of green but my friend thought it was a ahade of blue.
Actual quote from someone entering a restaurant in Piños Altos, New Mexico, when
I was visiting:
"Whoever has the blue green silver Honda with the out-of-state plates, your
lights are on"....
I went out and took care of them....r
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40afc118...@news.saix.net...
> On 22 May 2004 13:32:30 GMT, CyberCypher
<cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com>
> wrote:
>
> > But some elements of British usage, like "less" instead of "fewer" have
been
> creeping in here.
>
fewer applies to a discrete quantity 'there are fewer mosquitos than last
year'.
>
> Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of
"the
> government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has decided".
>
that has been taken up as sounding fashionable. It is originally a yankism
and still mainly a yank error.
>
>
> Soe of the newer Brit fashions haven't reached us yet though - using
"remit"
> as a noun, for example, thought "punters" for people other than boozy old
men
> who bet on the horses is also beginning to appear.
>
'Punters' has been underworld slang for 'fellow criminals' since 1891. The
chic of reverse snobbery that started in the '60s had it rehabilitated as a
colloquialism for 'customer' (for 'person' even) it appeared in the Sunday
Times in this sense in 1965.
--
What are the objections to games for girls? It seems to me the chief
arguments against them are (1) that
they are injurious to health; (2) that they impair the womanliness of
woman; (3) that they mar her appearance. There may be something to be
said for these contentions, but to my mind the _pros_ materially
outweigh the _cons_. - Lawn tennis for Ladies
meirman
Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> posted:
>
>"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:40afc118...@news.saix.net...
>> On 22 May 2004 13:32:30 GMT, CyberCypher
><cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of
>"the
>> government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has decided".
>>
>This is just journalistic laziness - saving words from headlines at best -
>that has been taken up as sounding fashionable. It is originally a yankism
>and still mainly a yank error.
Huh? We say 'the government' and 'the cabinet'. On the other hand, I
learned here that the Britsh say "hospital" and "university", with no
'the'.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> In alt.english.usage on Sun, 23 May 2004 07:52:37 +0200 "Peter H.M.
> Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> posted:
>
> >
> >"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:40afc118...@news.saix.net...
> >> On 22 May 2004 13:32:30 GMT, CyberCypher
> ><cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of
> >"the
> >> government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has
decided".
> >>
> >This is just journalistic laziness - saving words from headlines at
best -
> >that has been taken up as sounding fashionable. It is originally a
yankism
> >and still mainly a yank error.
>
> Huh? We say 'the government' and 'the cabinet'. On the other hand, I
> learned here that the Britsh say "hospital" and "university", with no
> 'the'.
>
are trying to be clever.
You deliver goods to the hospital - as it is a place. You go to hospital
with a broken let as a condition, just as you are 'at university' when
studying as a condition rather than a place. If you went to UCT to deliver
some goods you'd report that you'd been to 'the university' rather than that
you'd been 'at university'.
conciliator
>
> > > Which has just brought me to another point - I believe in the
African
> > > Zulu language, there is only one word to describe both the colour
> > "blue"
> > > and the colour "green" and no word for "computer".
>
a
> > Zulu about it?? :>)
>
> You have a blue and green computer? Wow! That's could go in either
my
> lounge or my former dining room, the one I sacrificed so that Mark
would
> have somewhere to put his bed. The irony is that Mark and I have more
> dinner parties than I ever had on my own. That might be due to the
fact
> that Mark sees everything as an excuse for a party.
>
> Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Hey, that can't be all THAT bad a philosophy. And, if you invite a Zulu,
he won't be able to see the computer either!
Moira de Swardt
> Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> posted:
> >But perhaps you're right about my flat mate being mistaken. He's three
and
> >a half months away from being forty. He should be immune to raves by
now.
> Unless he's going to find girls.
He's gay and has a boyfriend. Charming young fellow. Perhaps the clue lies
in the "young".
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
> Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> posted:
> >Oh, and the time we had crayfish (lobsters for the foreigners) on the
beach
> Just ftr, in the US they are different. Lobster live in saltwater,
> and crayfish are much smaller and live in fresh water. The latter are
> popular for food in Louisiana and I think a lot of other places. Ones
> about an inch long or less used to live in the stream behind my house.
As I said, what we call crayfish in South Africa, Americans call lobsters.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> You deliver goods to the hospital - as it is a place. You go to hospital
> with a broken let as a condition, just as you are 'at university' when
> studying as a condition rather than a place. If you went to UCT to deliver
> some goods you'd report that you'd been to 'the university' rather than
that
> you'd been 'at university'.
Precisely. Stating that one had been at university would imply that one had
studied there over a period of some time, as in "When I was at university
...". It wouldn't necessarily imply that I'd been at any particular
university. If one was in Cape Town one would probably say "the university"
for UCT and "Stellenbosch" for the other one. Although theoretically there
might be a reason to go to Stellenbosch the town that doesn't involve that
university.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
John Dean
> In alt.english.usage on Thu, 20 May 2004 20:14:47 +0600 Ayaz Ahmed
> Khan <resi...@myrealbox.com> posted:
>
>>
>> The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
>> preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place,
>> however, it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
>> inexpensive and quite easily available here.
>>
>
> guilty. So that in theory, no one should spend time in jail until
> after he is convicted. That includes accused and actual murderers,
> for example, who are also considered innocent until proven guilty.
>
proven guilty' concept (both concept and misunderstanding are as common
in the UK as the US).
It applies *during the trial* in criminal cases and only to the state of
mind of those deciding the case. That is to say, a jury or judge must
assume the innocence of the accused in a criminal trial until and unless
the prosecution proves otherwise. It is not for the accused to prove
innocence.
However, there is no requirement *outside the trial* for anyone to
assume innocence. That's why the Police are allowed to use force in
arresting suspects, that is why suspects can be held in jail / gaol
pending trial, that is why suspects can appear in court handcuffed to
guards. It is why, for example, I can perform a citizen's arrest with
impunity provided I can show good reason afterwards even if the person I
arrest is never convicted.
Outside criminal trials, the concept isn't given house room. In a civil
case, neither side has the presumption of innocence. In Employment
Tribunals over here, neither employer nor employee is assumed to be in
the right (or in the wrong). People can be dismissed from employment on
suspicion of wrongdoing without ever being convicted and in
circumstances in which they have no redress.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Steve Hayes
>In alt.english.usage on Sat, 22 May 2004 12:43:44 +0200 "Moira de
>Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> posted:
>
>>
>>"conciliator" <avoi...@home.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>>Oh, and the time we had crayfish (lobsters for the foreigners) on the beach
>
>Just ftr, in the US they are different. Lobster live in saltwater,
>and crayfish are much smaller and live in fresh water. The latter are
>popular for food in Louisiana and I think a lot of other places. Ones
>about an inch long or less used to live in the stream behind my house.
In South Africa what are popularly called "crayfish" are salt-water creatures,
whose proper name is "rock lobsters".
Areff
>
> "Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:40afc118...@news.saix.net...
>> On 22 May 2004 13:32:30 GMT, CyberCypher
><cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of
> "the
>> government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has decided".
>>
> This is just journalistic laziness - saving words from headlines at best -
> that has been taken up as sounding fashionable. It is originally a yankism
> and still mainly a yank error.
Say wha'? The only case I can think of where this is done in YankE is wrt
"Congress", which is more often than not spoken of without "the".
Certainly no Yank would refer to "Administration" as opposed to "the
administration", etc. I think "Congress" is a special case, much like
"Parliament".
--
Areff
> I think there is a common misunderstanding about the 'innocent until
> proven guilty' concept (both concept and misunderstanding are as common
> in the UK as the US).
> It applies *during the trial* in criminal cases and only to the state of
> mind of those deciding the case. That is to say, a jury or judge must
> assume the innocence of the accused in a criminal trial until and unless
> the prosecution proves otherwise. It is not for the accused to prove
> innocence.
> However, there is no requirement *outside the trial* for anyone to
> assume innocence. That's why the Police are allowed to use force in
> arresting suspects, that is why suspects can be held in jail / gaol
> pending trial, that is why suspects can appear in court handcuffed to
> guards.
This assumes that some minimal burden has been met by the po-lice and such
(the probable cause burden, the is-this-arrestee-a-ham-sandwich burden,
etc.). That's why the po-lice can't just arrest anyone they want for any
reason.
> Outside criminal trials, the concept isn't given house room. In a civil
> case, neither side has the presumption of innocence.
But typically the defendant (wrt a claim brought by the plaintiff) is
sort of presumed at the outset to be non-liable wrt whatever the legal
basis of the claim is; the plaintiff still has the burden of proof, as
does the state in criminal cases, but the burden in civil cases is much
less onerous, usually, a "more likely than not", >50% sort of thing. Same
for a quasi-judicial administrative proceeding, wot?
Sher, this can be troubling. Like how if you're a deep-pockets fellow
like Coop or *.J. Simps*n, and you're acquitted of murder, the victim's
estate or what have you can then sue you for wrongful death and prevail
thanks, in some cases, to the lower burden of proof. Maybe this doesn't
bother Liebs, but it might be argued that this is a way of circumventing
the privilege against double jeopardy. Then again, neither *.J. nor Coop
is confined to a cell.
"Innocence" and "guilt" are nowadays sort of specific to the criminal law,
but I suppose that's partly an unfortunate historical accident. It might
be better to do away with those words and use "(not) criminally liable",
wot? If we did so, it might be easier for people to separate the two
concepts of innocence-guilt (the extra-legal and the legal).
--
Areff
> As I said, what we call crayfish in South Africa, Americans call lobsters.
So what do Sith Efricans call that which Americans call crayfish (or, in
some dialects, crawfish)?
--
Moira de Swardt
"Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
I don't think we have such "hanimals", but I might be mistaken. Any ideas
from other, more knowledgeable Sow Thefrikins?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
("kreIfIS, "krO;fIS) Forms: a. 5 creuesse, -ez, -eys, krevys, 5–6 crev-,
creues, -ys(e, 5–7 -is(e, -ice, 6 -yce, -iz, 6–7 -isse, creavis(e, 7
krevise; b. 6 creuysshe, 6–7 crev-, creuish(e, 7 creyvish, 7–8 creevish; c.
6 crefysshe, 6–7 crefish, 7 creyfish, craifish, crea-fish, 7– cray-fish,
crayfish; d. 5 craveys, 6 crav-, craues, -ish, crafyshe, 6–8 crafish, (8
cra-fish), 7– craw-fish, crawfish. [ME. crevice, -visse, a. OF. crevice
(13–15th c. in Littré); cf. crevis m., crevicel dim. in Godef.; in OF. also
escrevisse, mod.F. écrevisse, Walloon grèvèse, Rouchi graviche (Littré); a.
OHG. crebi1 MHG. krebe1, a derivative of stem *kraZ- in krab-bo crab q.v.
In Southern ME. the second syllable was naturally confounded with vish
(written viss in Ayenbite), ‘fish’; whence the corrupted forms under b and
c, and the later crey-, cray-fish. The variants in cra- go back to Anglo-Fr.
when the stress was still on second syllable, and the first liable to vary
between cre- and cra-; they are the origin of the modern craw-fish, now used
chiefly in U.S.]
A. Illustration of forms.
a a1400–50 Alexander 3864 Creuesses. c1430 Lydg. Min. Poems (Percy Soc.)
154 A krevys with his klawes longe. 1481–90 Howard Househ. Bks. (Roxb.) 84
For v. crevys ij. d. c1490 Promp. Parv. 102 (MS. K) Creveys, fysshe [Pynson
creues]. 1513 Bk. Keruynge in Babees Bk. (1868) 281 A creues, dyght hym
thus. 1544 T. Phaer Regim. Lyfe (1553) Iiva, Excepte it be a creuisse.
1570 B. Googe Pop. Kingd. ii. (1880) 21 Some pleasant River+full of creuis.
1612 tr. Benvenuto's Passenger i. ii. §87. 163 Creauises are good for
Hectickes. 1657 Coles Adam in Eden lviii, To seek after Crevises. 1679
Plot Staffordsh. (1686) 19 Lobsters+analogous to a Crevice. 1783 Ainsworth
Lat. Dict. 11, *Carabus+a crab, cray-fish, or crevice. 1555 Eden Decades
302 The flesshe of creuysshes. 1577 B. Googe Heresbach's Husb. iv. (1586)
173b, Crevishes, Barbils, and Chevins. 1658 Rowland Moufet's Theat. Ins.
1041 Crabs or river Crevish. 1783 [see B1b]. 1555 Eden Decades 115 Full of
crabbes or crefysshes. 1571 B. Googe Heresbach's Husb. ii. (1586) 70 Take a
good sort of Crefishes. 1597 Gerarde ii. ccli, Crayfish Woolfes~bane.
1613–6 W. Browne Brit. Past. ii. iii, From his lurking hole Had pull'd the
Cray-fish. 1683 Phil. Trans. XIII. 269 The Crefish are some of them red.
1756 Nugent Gr. Tour, Germ. II. 443 The largest crayfish in Europe. 1880
Huxley (title), The Cray-fish. 1478 Botoner Itin. (1778) 291 Homines
possunt piscare+de craveys. 1526 Househ. Exp. Sir T. Le Strange (Add. MS.
27448, f. 27b), A craves and ij crabbes. 1577 Harrison England iii. x.
(1878) ii. 21 The lobstar, crafish [1587 or crevis], and the crab. 1565–73
Cooper Thesaurus s.v. Crusta, Pilles of certain fishes, as of Crauishes.
1624 Capt. Smith Virginia v. 175 They caught+great craw-fishes. 1626 Bacon
Sylva (1677) §45 The Flesh of the Crab or Crafish. 1747 Wesley Prim.
Physic. (1762) 82 Ashes of Crawfish. 1796 H. Glasse Cookery v. 86 A ragoo
of crawfish. 1867 F. Francis Angling i. (1880) 48 The tail of a craw-fish.
1883 Century Mag. 378 A dozen large crawfish.
1597
1577
1577
1571
1683
1570
1679
1565–73
1658
c1490
1555
1657
1796
1481–90
1555
1626
1783
1478
1544
1624
1783
1883
c1430
1526
1613–6
1756
1880
a1400–50
1513
1612
1747
1867
B. Signification.
†1. Formerly, like Ger. krebs, a general name for all the larger edible
crustacea. Obs.
a1400–50 Alexander 3864 Þan comes þare-out creuesses of manykins hewis.
1575 Laneham Let. (1871) 9 Fresh Herring, Oisters, Samon, Creuis, and such
like. 1656 W. D. tr. Comenius' Gate Lat. Unl. 3159 Crevices are shelled
swimmers, with ten feet, and two claws: among which are huge Lobsters of
three cubits; round Crabs; Craw-fish, little Lobsters.
a1400–50
1575
1656
†b. spec. applied to the crab. Obs.
1509 Barclay Shyp of Folys (1874) I. 271 On the Crauys he styll shall
bacwarde ryde. 1546 T. Phaer Bk. Childr. (1553) Svja, The canker+spreadeth
it selfe abrode, like the fete of a creues, called in latin cancer. 1579
Tomson Calvin's Serm. Tim. 909 To say, walk on, behaue your selues manfully:
and go cleane kam ourselues like crevises. 1783 Ainsworth Lat. Dict.
(Morrell) i, Crevis, or crevish, cancer.
1579
1546
1509
1783
†2. A general name for large crustacea other than crabs. The name sea
crayfish included the lobster and its allies: cf. 3b. Obs. or arch.
c1440 Anc. Cookery in Househ. Ord. (1790) 449 Crabbes and crevyse and
lamprons in lentyne. c1460 J. Russell Bk. Nurture 614 in Babees Bk. (1868)
159 The bak of þe Crevise, þus he must be sted: array hym as ye dothe þe
crabbe. 1526 Ord. Hen. VIII in Househ. Ord. (1790) 182 Perches, Creviz,
Crabs. 1 mess 8d. c1532 G. Du Wes Introd. Fr. in Palsgr. 913 Crevyce of the
see, houmars. 1575 Appius & Virginia in Hazl. Dodsley IV. 118 Yea, but what
am I?+A crab or a crevis, a crane or a cockerel? 1624 Capt. Smith Virginia
ii. 28 Crabs, Shrimps, Crevises, Oysters.
1575
c1460
c1532
c1440
1526
1624
3. In current use: a. gen. A fresh-water crustacean, Astacus fluviatilis
(River or Fresh-water Crayfish, crevice d'eau douce), resembling a small
lobster, found in rivers and brooks. Also applied to other species of
Astacus and of the allied American genus Cambarus, e.g. the blind crawfish
of the Mammoth Cave of Kentucky (C. pellucidus).
c1460 J. Russell Bk. Nurture 618 in Babees Bk. 159 Of Crevis dewe douz.
1533 Elyot Cast. Helthe (1541) 15a, Shell fyshe, excepte crevyse deau
doulce. 1577 Harrison England iii. x. (1878) ii. 21 The little
crafishes+taken+plentifullie in our fresh riuers. 1578 Lyte Dodoens ii.
xli. 60 The tayle of a Lobster, or river Creuis. Ibid. iii. lxxviii. 426 A
freshwater Creauis. 1601 Holland Pliny II. 443 Craifishes of the riuer+be
diureticall. a1661 Fuller Worthies iii. (1662) 223 This Sir Christopher is
also memorable for stocking the river Yower+with Crevishes. 1837 M. Donovan
Dom. Econ. II. 213 The Cray-fish or Craw~fish is an inhabitant of fresh
water, and indeed only of the purest water. 1880 Huxley Crayfish i. 16
There are a number of kinds of Cray-fish+but they bear the common surname of
Astacus. Ibid. 31 Crayfishes of a year old are+two inches long.
1578
1577
a1661
1880
c1460
1533
1601
1837
b. With London fishmongers and generally on the sea-coast of Great
Britain: The Spiny Lobster, Palinurus vulgaris, the Langouste of the French.
1748 Anson's Voy. ii. i. 125 This was sea cra-fish; they generally
weighed eight or nine pounds apiece. 1770 Wesley Wisd. God in Creation
(1809) I. 275 The crab, the cray-fish, and many other animals are seen to
devour them [muscles]. 1840 Penny Cycl. XVII. 167 Palinurus vulgaris. It is
the common Sea-crawfish of the shops, Langouste of the French. 1862 Ansted
Channel Isl. iv. xxii. (1865) 508 Crayfish are very fine, but not thought
equal to lobsters in the London market. Note. This crustacean is+the spiny
lobster (Palinurus vulgaris) of naturalists, and attains a length of 18
inches. 1865 Gosse Land & Sea (1874) 81 The cray-fish, or thorny lobster.
1865
1770
1862
1748
1840
c. S. Afr. An edible marine crustacean belonging to any of several genera
of the families Scyllaridæ or Palinuridæ, especially the Cape crawfish,
Jasus lalandii.
1853 L. Pappe Edible Fishes Cape G.H. 11 This crawfish [sc. the Cape
lobster, Palinurus lalandii], peculiar only to the West Coast, and common to
Table Bay, is easily caught. 1954 K. H. Barnard S. Afr. Shore-life 27
Farther east, instead of the Cape Crawfish, other species are found which
are called stridentes or noisy Crawfishes.+ Gilchrist's Crawfish from the
Agulhas Bank has the two short whips on each of the shorter feelers.+ The
Port Elizabeth Crawfish+is a squat form. 1961 Cape Times 21 July 11/5 Our
kreef which still appears as crayfish or crawfish on Cape restaurant menus,
is the langouste. We changed our kreef from crawfish to rock lobster to
please American taste. It seems they despise the small, river crawfish with
which they are familiar.
1961
1853
1954
4. attrib., as crayfish broth, soup; †crevishe eyes = crab's eyes;
†crevis fish = crayfish.
1599 A. M. tr. Gabelhouer's Bk. Physicke 125/1 Take 6 or 7 Pickerells
Eyes+and as manye Crevishe eyes+contunde all these thinges very small. 1688
R. Holme Armoury 338/1 A Crevice, or a Crefish, or as some write it, a
Crevis Fish+a Species of the Lobster, but of a lesser size. 1702 J. Purcell
Cholick Index, Crafish Broths and Garlick recommended. 1719 D'Urfey Pills
I. 268 All must stoop to Crawfish Soop.
1719
1599
1688
1702
Harvey Van Sickle
> crayfish, crawfish, n.
-snip of well over 620 lines of a 629-line post which sort of
reproduced the etymology of these two words-
What was that all about?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
Peter H.M. Brooks
("kreIfIS, "krO;fIS) Forms: a. 5 creuesse, -ez, -eys, krevys, 5–6 crev-,
creues, -ys(e, 5–7 -is(e, -ice, 6 -yce, -iz, 6–7 -isse, creavis(e, 7
krevise; b. 6 creuysshe, 6–7 crev-, creuish(e, 7 creyvish, 7–8 creevish; c.
6 crefysshe, 6–7 crefish, 7 creyfish, craifish, crea-fish, 7– cray-fish,
crayfish; d. 5 craveys, 6 crav-, craues, -ish, crafyshe, 6–8 crafish, (8
cra-fish), 7– craw-fish, crawfish. [ME. crevice, -visse, a. OF. crevice
(13–15th c. in Littré); cf. crevis m., crevicel dim. in Godef.; in OF. also
escrevisse, mod.F. écrevisse, Walloon grèvèse, Rouchi graviche (Littré); a.
OHG. crebi1 MHG. krebe1, a derivative of stem *kraZ- in krab-bo crab q.v.
In Southern ME. the second syllable was naturally confounded with vish
(written viss in Ayenbite), ‘fish’; whence the corrupted forms under b and
c, and the later crey-, cray-fish. The variants in cra- go back to Anglo-Fr.
when the stress was still on second syllable, and the first liable to vary
between cre- and cra-; they are the origin of the modern craw-fish, now used
chiefly in U.S.]
A. Illustration of forms.
a a1400-50 Alexander 3864 Creuesses. c1430 Lydg. Min. Poems (Percy Soc.)
154 A krevys with his klawes longe. 1481-90 Howard Househ. Bks. (Roxb.) 84
For v. crevys ij. d. c1490 Promp. Parv. 102 (MS. K) Creveys, fysshe [Pynson
creues]. 1513 Bk. Keruynge in Babees Bk. (1868) 281 A creues, dyght hym
thus. 1544 T. Phaer Regim. Lyfe (1553) Iiva, Excepte it be a creuisse.
1570 B. Googe Pop. Kingd. ii. (1880) 21 Some pleasant River+full of creuis.
1612 tr. Benvenuto's Passenger i. ii. §87. 163 Creauises are good for
Hectickes. 1657 Coles Adam in Eden lviii, To seek after Crevises. 1679
Plot Staffordsh. (1686) 19 Lobsters+analogous to a Crevice. 1783 Ainsworth
Lat. Dict. 11, *Carabus+a crab, cray-fish, or crevice. 1555 Eden Decades
302 The flesshe of creuysshes. 1577 B. Googe Heresbach's Husb. iv. (1586)
173b, Crevishes, Barbils, and Chevins. 1658 Rowland Moufet's Theat. Ins.
1041 Crabs or river Crevish. 1783 [see B1b]. 1555 Eden Decades 115 Full of
crabbes or crefysshes. 1571 B. Googe Heresbach's Husb. ii. (1586) 70 Take a
good sort of Crefishes. 1597 Gerarde ii. ccli, Crayfish Woolfes~bane.
1613-6 W. Browne Brit. Past. ii. iii, From his lurking hole Had pull'd the
Cray-fish. 1683 Phil. Trans. XIII. 269 The Crefish are some of them red.
1756 Nugent Gr. Tour, Germ. II. 443 The largest crayfish in Europe. 1880
Huxley (title), The Cray-fish. 1478 Botoner Itin. (1778) 291 Homines
possunt piscare+de craveys. 1526 Househ. Exp. Sir T. Le Strange (Add. MS.
27448, f. 27b), A craves and ij crabbes. 1577 Harrison England iii. x.
(1878) ii. 21 The lobstar, crafish [1587 or crevis], and the crab. 1565-73
Cooper Thesaurus s.v. Crusta, Pilles of certain fishes, as of Crauishes.
1624 Capt. Smith Virginia v. 175 They caught+great craw-fishes. 1626 Bacon
Sylva (1677) §45 The Flesh of the Crab or Crafish. 1747 Wesley Prim.
Physic. (1762) 82 Ashes of Crawfish. 1796 H. Glasse Cookery v. 86 A ragoo
of crawfish. 1867 F. Francis Angling i. (1880) 48 The tail of a craw-fish.
1883 Century Mag. 378 A dozen large crawfish.
B. Signification.
†1. Formerly, like Ger. krebs, a general name for all the larger edible
crustacea. Obs.
a1400–50 Alexander 3864 Þan comes þare-out creuesses of manykins hewis.
1575 Laneham Let. (1871) 9 Fresh Herring, Oisters, Samon, Creuis, and such
like. 1656 W. D. tr. Comenius' Gate Lat. Unl. 3159 Crevices are shelled
swimmers, with ten feet, and two claws: among which are huge Lobsters of
three cubits; round Crabs; Craw-fish, little Lobsters.
†b. spec. applied to the crab. Obs.
1509 Barclay Shyp of Folys (1874) I. 271 On the Crauys he styll shall
bacwarde ryde. 1546 T. Phaer Bk. Childr. (1553) Svja, The canker+spreadeth
it selfe abrode, like the fete of a creues, called in latin cancer. 1579
Tomson Calvin's Serm. Tim. 909 To say, walk on, behaue your selues manfully:
and go cleane kam ourselues like crevises. 1783 Ainsworth Lat. Dict.
(Morrell) i, Crevis, or crevish, cancer.
†2. A general name for large crustacea other than crabs. The name sea
crayfish included the lobster and its allies: cf. 3b. Obs. or arch.
c1440 Anc. Cookery in Househ. Ord. (1790) 449 Crabbes and crevyse and
lamprons in lentyne. c1460 J. Russell Bk. Nurture 614 in Babees Bk. (1868)
159 The bak of þe Crevise, þus he must be sted: array hym as ye dothe þe
crabbe. 1526 Ord. Hen. VIII in Househ. Ord. (1790) 182 Perches, Creviz,
Crabs. 1 mess 8d. c1532 G. Du Wes Introd. Fr. in Palsgr. 913 Crevyce of the
see, houmars. 1575 Appius & Virginia in Hazl. Dodsley IV. 118 Yea, but what
am I?+A crab or a crevis, a crane or a cockerel? 1624 Capt. Smith Virginia
ii. 28 Crabs, Shrimps, Crevises, Oysters.
3. In current use: a. gen. A fresh-water crustacean, Astacus fluviatilis
(River or Fresh-water Crayfish, crevice d'eau douce), resembling a small
lobster, found in rivers and brooks. Also applied to other species of
Astacus and of the allied American genus Cambarus, e.g. the blind crawfish
of the Mammoth Cave of Kentucky (C. pellucidus).
c1460 J. Russell Bk. Nurture 618 in Babees Bk. 159 Of Crevis dewe douz.
1533 Elyot Cast. Helthe (1541) 15a, Shell fyshe, excepte crevyse deau
doulce. 1577 Harrison England iii. x. (1878) ii. 21 The little
crafishes+taken+plentifullie in our fresh riuers. 1578 Lyte Dodoens ii.
xli. 60 The tayle of a Lobster, or river Creuis. Ibid. iii. lxxviii. 426 A
freshwater Creauis. 1601 Holland Pliny II. 443 Craifishes of the riuer+be
diureticall. a1661 Fuller Worthies iii. (1662) 223 This Sir Christopher is
also memorable for stocking the river Yower+with Crevishes. 1837 M. Donovan
Dom. Econ. II. 213 The Cray-fish or Craw~fish is an inhabitant of fresh
water, and indeed only of the purest water. 1880 Huxley Crayfish i. 16
There are a number of kinds of Cray-fish+but they bear the common surname of
Astacus. Ibid. 31 Crayfishes of a year old are+two inches long.
b. With London fishmongers and generally on the sea-coast of Great Britain:
The Spiny Lobster, Palinurus vulgaris, the Langouste of the French.
1748 Anson's Voy. ii. i. 125 This was sea cra-fish; they generally weighed
eight or nine pounds apiece. 1770 Wesley Wisd. God in Creation (1809) I.
275 The crab, the cray-fish, and many other animals are seen to devour them
[muscles]. 1840 Penny Cycl. XVII. 167 Palinurus vulgaris. It is the common
Sea-crawfish of the shops, Langouste of the French. 1862 Ansted Channel
Isl. iv. xxii. (1865) 508 Crayfish are very fine, but not thought equal to
lobsters in the London market. Note. This crustacean is+the spiny lobster
(Palinurus vulgaris) of naturalists, and attains a length of 18 inches.
1865 Gosse Land & Sea (1874) 81 The cray-fish, or thorny lobster.
c. S. Afr. An edible marine crustacean belonging to any of several genera of
the families Scyllaridæ or Palinuridæ, especially the Cape crawfish, Jasus
lalandii.
1853 L. Pappe Edible Fishes Cape G.H. 11 This crawfish [sc. the Cape
lobster, Palinurus lalandii], peculiar only to the West Coast, and common to
Table Bay, is easily caught. 1954 K. H. Barnard S. Afr. Shore-life 27
Farther east, instead of the Cape Crawfish, other species are found which
are called stridentes or noisy Crawfishes.+ Gilchrist's Crawfish from the
Agulhas Bank has the two short whips on each of the shorter feelers.+ The
Port Elizabeth Crawfish+is a squat form. 1961 Cape Times 21 July 11/5 Our
kreef which still appears as crayfish or crawfish on Cape restaurant menus,
is the langouste. We changed our kreef from crawfish to rock lobster to
please American taste. It seems they despise the small, river crawfish with
which they are familiar.
4. attrib., as crayfish broth, soup; †crevishe eyes = crab's eyes;
Skitt
Bail is not a banking transaction, nor a loan.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Slow Eddy
> Soe of the newer Brit fashions haven't reached us yet though - using
> "remit" as a noun, for example, thought "punters" for people other than
> boozy old men who bet on the horses is also beginning to appear.
One of these new fashions is to use the word "refute" to mean "vigorously
deny" instead of the old-fashioned "logically disprove". I presume that the
journalists in question think of refutation as merely a stronger form or
"disagree". What kind of education system produces this kind of drift in
terminology?
--
Slow Eddy
meirman
Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> posted:
>
>"meirman" <mei...@invalid.com> wrote in message
>news:m7i0b05j6btcm99h7...@4ax.com...
>> In alt.english.usage on Sun, 23 May 2004 07:52:37 +0200 "Peter H.M.
>> Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> posted:
>>
>> >
>> >"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:40afc118...@news.saix.net...
>> >> On 22 May 2004 13:32:30 GMT, CyberCypher
>> ><cyber...@19-16-25-13-01-03.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Like dropping the definite article, and saying "government" instead of
>> >> "the government". "Cabinet has decided" instead of "The cabinet has
>> >> decided".
>> >This is just journalistic laziness - saving words from headlines at best
>> >- that has been taken up as sounding fashionable. It is originally a
>> >yankism and still mainly a yank error.
Below I see that you must be talking only about headlines. And you
did bring up headlines in the first post above. It's possible to use
full sentences at the top of the front page, but are you saying that
the headline over a one-column story in a British newspaper would be a
complete sentence?
At any rate, I don't think it can be called an error, any more than it
is an error when authors don't use complete sentences to title their
books and essays.
Nor are headlines written that way because journalists are lazy. It
is to save space and allow room to make the essential words of the
headline more visible and visible from farther away.
(I believe the NYTimes and maybe the Washington Post often use full
sentences for the headline at the top of the front page. But that
doesn't mean the other papers are lazy or in error. There are other
papers I've never seen or don't remember.)
>> Huh? We say 'the government' and 'the cabinet'. On the other hand, I
>> learned here that the Britsh say "hospital" and "university", with no
>> 'the'.
>>
>Quite. Normal people use the definite article, lazy journalists don't - they
>are trying to be clever.
>
>You deliver goods to the hospital - as it is a place. You go to hospital
>with a broken let as a condition, just as you are 'at university' when
>studying as a condition rather than a place. If you went to UCT to deliver
>some goods you'd report that you'd been to 'the university' rather than that
>you'd been 'at university'.
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
news:f10r8c...@verdun.local...
incorrect, mistaken, illiterate, or having English as a second language.
--
The telephone current is a phenomenon of the ether, say the theorists. But
what is ether? No one knows. Sir Oliver Lodge has guessed that it is
"perhaps the only substantial thing in the material universe"; but no one
knows. - The History of the Telephone, Herbet Casson 1910
meirman
<john...@frag.lineone.net> posted:
>meirman wrote:
>> In alt.english.usage on Thu, 20 May 2004 20:14:47 +0600 Ayaz Ahmed
>> Khan <resi...@myrealbox.com> posted:
>>
>>>
>>> The last time I saw a related documentary on the TV, ecstasy was the
>>> preferred drug among teenagers at raves in the US. At my place,
>>> however, it is cannibas --- they call it dope. Actually, cannibas is
>>> inexpensive and quite easily available here.
>>>
>>
>> FTR, the operative principle in the US is innocent until proven
>> guilty. So that in theory, no one should spend time in jail until
>> after he is convicted. That includes accused and actual murderers,
>> for example, who are also considered innocent until proven guilty.
>>
>I think there is a common misunderstanding about the 'innocent until
>proven guilty' concept (both concept and misunderstanding are as common
>in the UK as the US).
>It applies *during the trial* in criminal cases and only to the state of
>mind of those deciding the case. That is to say, a jury or judge must
>assume the innocence of the accused in a criminal trial until and unless
>the prosecution proves otherwise. It is not for the accused to prove
>innocence.
>However, there is no requirement *outside the trial* for anyone to
>assume innocence.
You say this, but you really give no evidence for it. The items you
give below do not require any lack of presumption of innocence to be
true. For example, a parent can totally believe that his child hasn't
done something (let's say something like breaking windows somewhere,
something worse than a normal child does.) but still insist he come
downstairs and say that he didn't do it to whoever thinks he did. The
government has the right to use force to do the same thing without
violating the presumption.
OK, let me look on the web:
An Illinois case vacating a denial of a request for pretrial bail, for
a man accused of killing his wife, and ordering a new hearing on bail:
http://www.state.il.us/COURT/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2001/2ndDistrict/October/Html/2011053.htm
".... The presumption of innocence attaches to the accused from the
onset of the proceedings and is one of the underpinnings of an
accused's right to bail. See Stack, 342 U.S. at 4, 96 L. Ed. at 6, 72
S. Ct. at 3. "
03/12/98 Committee on the Judiciary -- Hirsch Statement
http://www.house.gov/judiciary/3414.htm ...Like many such practices,
the custom [bail] evolved long before its rationale was formally
stated... Modern jurisprudence offers several rationales for the bail
system, which can be grouped for analytical purposes into two
paradigms. In the "presumption of innocence" model, bail is a right of
the accused, a natural corollary of the accused's right to be presumed
innocent. "[T]o refuse or dely to bail any person bailable, is an
offense [sic] against the liberty of the subject."(4) According to
this model, an arrested citizen's juridical status differs from that
of any other citizen only in that he has been arrested, and is
therefore bound as an obligation of citizenship to submit himself to
the process of the court. But the government is entitled to ask
nothing more of him than that he honor this obligation. In all other
aspects, it must treat him precisely as it treats all other,
unarrested, citizens. Arrest triggers no general, unparticularized
power in the government to evaluate the conditions upon which the
citizen shall continue to be entitled to participate in society; that
is a determination that may be made at trial.
...
This is from the UK, but I don't see the text itself, and I don't know
what it says:
Title: Reconciling bail law with the presumption of innocence
http://www3.oup.co.uk/oxjlsj/hdb/Volume_17/Issue_01/170001.sgm.abs.html
This is from Ontario. I don't know if it part of the decision or only
the appellant's brief, but still:
che of http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0210/hall5.htm.
"Because the impugned phrase confers an open-ended judicial discretion
to refuse bail, it is inconsistent with both s. 11(e) of the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which guarantees a right "not to be
denied reasonable bail without just cause", and the presumption of
innocence."
A Quebec page:
http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/1992/vol3/texte/1992scr3_0665.txt
or if not found:
http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=bail++%27presumption+of+innocence%27&u=www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/1992/vol3/texte/1992scr3_0665.txt&w=bail+presumption+of+innocence&d=24674B5DA6&c=482&yc=10055&icp=1
" But s. 11(d) does not exhaust the operation of the presumption of
innocence as a principle of fundamental justice under s. 7 of the
Charter. The presumption of innocence under s. 7 applies at all
stages of the criminal process and its particular requirements will
vary according to the context in which it comes to be applied. "
An Australian page:
Bail: An Examination of Contemporary Issues
http://www.jc.nsw.gov.au/st/st24
"Furthermore, bail laws, and decisions based on them, clearly
highlight the tension between the competing ideas of the presumption
of innocence and protection of the community."
All this is not to say, from my pov, that people outside the police
and judicial proceddings have to believe that someone is innocent.
Even an acquittal just means that the state has not adequately proven
the case. And surely if a policeman sees him do it and doesn't see any
excuse for it, he's allowed to believe he's guilty. But bail is the
province of the judge, and if perchance he has seen the guy do it, he
should recuse himself from related proceedings.
>That's why the Police are allowed to use force in
>arresting suspects, that is why suspects can be held in jail / gaol
>pending trial, that is why suspects can appear in court handcuffed to
>guards.
In the US that is true for the arraignment, but probably not for any
time the jury is present. In fact, the defendant has a right to wear
regular clothes instead of a jail uniform, which violates the
presumption of innocence.
I say "probably" above because of one possible exception that I know
of, Bobby Seale in 1969, of the "Conspiracy 8". He wouldn't stay
seated or shut up, and constantly interrupted, and was eventually
bound to the chair and gagged. I think he was later moved to another
room with closed circuit tv so he could be "present" at his trial,
probably but maybe not because his lawyer said that being bound and
gagged in front of the trier of fact was a violation of the
presumption of innocence.
>It is why, for example, I can perform a citizen's arrest with
>impunity provided I can show good reason afterwards even if the person I
>arrest is never convicted.
Maybe this is question of what "good reason" is, but this is not true
aiui in the United States. If someone makes a citizen's arrest here,
it better be true that the guy did it. That doesn't mean that he has
to be convicted for the arrester not to be liable for false
imprisonment, but it does, I think, mean that if the arrester didn't
see the guy do it and maybe relied on what a third party told him, if
the guy didn't do it, the arrester is subject to suit. If my son or
my best friend told me he saw him do it, or knew he did it, you or I
might think that was a good reason, but aiui, if he didn't do it, an
American would be in trouble for arresting him.
>Outside criminal trials, the concept isn't given house room. In a civil
>case, neither side has the presumption of innocence. In Employment
>Tribunals over here, neither employer nor employee is assumed to be in
>the right (or in the wrong). People can be dismissed from employment on
>suspicion of wrongdoing without ever being convicted and in
>circumstances in which they have no redress.
That's true here too but, and this may be different from what you
said, it doesn't depend on presumption of innocence, or its absence.
In the absence of civil service rules, a union contract, academic
tenure (which we've discussed here and means something different in
the US from the UK), or a showing that it was because of the
employee's race, religion, or some other factors (a couple of which
vary by state), an employer can fire someone for the slightest reason
or for no reason. So "innocence" itself is not a factor, even more
than the presumption of innocence is not.
Michael West
> In South Africa what are popularly called "crayfish" are salt-water
creatures,
> whose proper name is "rock lobsters".
In Australia the fresh-water crays are called "yabbies"
and "marrons", and the term "crayfish" is popularly,
though not exclusively, applied to rock lobsters. However,
"fresh-water crayfish" would be understood.
--
Michael West