This beckons the question
John Seeliger
meant. But how about "beckons the question"?
http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/453910/:
"I guess this beckons the question: will anyone ever be able to compete with
eBay?"
--
http://www.johnstexas.com http://stores.ebay.com/Johnstexas?refid=store
http://www.desototexasusa.com/glossary.htm
CyberCypher
> We all know about the misuse of "begs the question" when raises is
> clearly meant. But how about "beckons the question"?
>
> http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/453910/:
>
> "I guess this beckons the question: will anyone ever be able to
> compete with eBay?"
This is what most people have meant all along.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Bob Cunningham
<cyber...@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> said:
> John Seeliger wrote:
> > We all know about the misuse of "begs the question" when raises is
> > clearly meant. But how about "beckons the question"?
> > http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/453910/:
> > "I guess this beckons the question: will anyone ever be able to
> > compete with eBay?"
> This is what most people have meant all along.
"Begs the question" does NOT clearly mean "raises the
question". That's a corruption of the original meaning,
which was to "assume the truth of a thing to be proved or a
thing equivalent to it" (_New Shorter Oxford_)
Apparently, people heard "beg the question", thought they
knew what it meant, and used it that way; and it became
common enough usage to be considered acceptable.
Another misuse that has made its way into dictionaries is
"to evade a difficulty". Interesting to see, _The New
Shorter Oxford_ has that definition, but it doesn't even
mention the "raises the question" definition.
When you say "begs the question", you can't depend upon its
being understood correctly. There will be some who will
know the proper meaning and others who will know only one of
the corrupted meanings.
I'd never heard "beckons the question", but I think it's a
highly commendable phrase, since it says unexceptionably
what some people have mistakenly come to think "begs the
question" means. It sounds like it could have been
someone's invention to avoid the ambiguity of "begs the
question".
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USofA
Down with Miss Thistlebottom:
Let's hear it for "like" as a conjunction!
Matti Lamprhey
Does OED have a usage of "beg" as in "to beg the question" but in a
different phrase?
Matti
Ben Zimmer
>
> We all know about the misuse of "begs the question" when raises is
> clearly meant. But how about "beckons the question"?
>
> http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/453910/:
>
> "I guess this beckons the question: will anyone ever be able to
> compete with eBay?"
Well spotted! It's now in the Eggcorn Database...
CyberCypher
> <cyber...@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> said:
>> John Seeliger wrote:
>
>> > We all know about the misuse of "begs the question" when raises
>> > is clearly meant. But how about "beckons the question"?
>
>> > http://www.fatwallet.com/t/67/453910/:
>
>> > "I guess this beckons the question: will anyone ever be able to
>> > compete with eBay?"
>
>> This is what most people have meant all along.
>
> "Begs the question" does NOT clearly mean "raises the
> question".
Yes, Mr C, you're right. But not everybody knows that. Most people
misuse this phrase to mean "raises the question". That is what I
meant.
> That's a corruption of the original meaning,
> which was to "assume the truth of a thing to be proved or a
> thing equivalent to it" (_New Shorter Oxford_)
>
> Apparently, people heard "beg the question", thought they
> knew what it meant, and used it that way; and it became
> common enough usage to be considered acceptable.
>
> Another misuse that has made its way into dictionaries is
> "to evade a difficulty". Interesting to see, _The New
> Shorter Oxford_ has that definition, but it doesn't even
> mention the "raises the question" definition.
>
> When you say "begs the question", you can't depend upon its
> being understood correctly. There will be some who will
> know the proper meaning and others who will know only one of
> the corrupted meanings.
And these will also be the people who say "try and untie the Gordian
knot", "between you and I", and a host of other barbarisms as well,
idiomatic though they might be by currently corrupted standards at
the level of the lowest common denominator in masscomi society.
> I'd never heard "beckons the question", but I think it's a
> highly commendable phrase, since it says unexceptionably
> what some people have mistakenly come to think "begs the
> question" means. It sounds like it could have been
> someone's invention to avoid the ambiguity of "begs the
> question".
I am in 1000% (a baseball percentage, understand) agreement here.
CyberCypher
[
> a different phrase?
[quote]
1. To ask alms or by way of alms. a. trans. To ask (bread, money,
etc.) in alms or as a charitable gift; to procure (one's living) by
begging.
a1225 Ancr. R. 356 Scheome ich telle uorte+beggen ase on
harlot...his liuene? 1377 Langl. P. Pl. B. vi. 195 Blynde and bedreden
...tha t seten to begge silver. c1440 Promp. Parv. 28/2 Beggyn bodely fode. c1500 Bk.
Mayd Emlyn xxvii. in Poet. Tracts (Percy Soc.) 28 Longe or she were dede, She wente to begge
her brede. 1611 Bible Ps. xxxvii. 25 Yet haue I not seene the righteous forsaken, nor his seede
begging bread. 1805 Scott Last Minstr. 24 He begged his bread from door to door.
b. intr. To ask alms; esp. to ask alms habitually, to live by asking alms. Const. absol.; of,
from, formerly at, a person; for alms.
[c897 K. Aelfred Gregory's Past. 284 Hit is swithe wel be thaem ?ecweden thaet he eft
bedeci?e on sumera, & him mon thonne noht ne selle.] a1300 Cursor M. 4708 thai war sa fele
that begand [v.r. beggand] yode. 1382 Wyclif John ix. 8 He that sat and beggide. 1386
Chaucer Sompn. T. 4 Ther wente a lymytour aboute To preche and eek to begge. a1450 York
Myst., Barbers 8 What riche man gose from dore to dore To begge at hym thaet has right noght.
1530 Palsgr. 446/1 I begge for the guylde of saynt Anthonye. 1562 J. Heywood Prov. & Epigr.
(1867) 138 Thou begst at wrong doore, and so hast begd longe. 1601 Shakes. Per. i. iv. 41
Those palates...Would now be glad of bread, and beg for it. 1602 Warner Alb. Eng. ix. xlvii.
(1612) 218 Fring'd and ymbroidred Petticoats now begge [i.e. are worn by beggars]. a1617
Hieron Wks. II. 392 We haue an ordinary saying...'They which begge must not choose'. 1718
Lady M. W. Montague Lett. II. liv. 80 While the post-horses are changed, the whole town
comes out to beg. 1856 Froude Hist. Eng. I. i. 74 Licences to beg were at that time granted.
[/quote]
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
'"History," Hegel said, "is a slaughterhouse."
And war is how the slaughter is carried out.'
Sydney H. Schanberg, _The Village Voice_,
May 17th, 2005
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> [
> > Does OED have a usage of "beg" as in "to beg the question" but in
> > a different phrase?
>
> [quote]
> 1. To ask alms or by way of alms. a. trans. To ask (bread, money,
> etc.) in alms or as a charitable gift; to procure (one's living) by
> begging.
Er -- that's the familiar usage of the word, of course. I was asking
for the "beg the question" usage, because I can't find any examples of
it other than in that particular phrase.
Matti
Ben Zimmer
MWCD has "to require as necessary or appropriate", which seems close.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=beg
Online examples all appear to be modeled on "begs the question", e.g.:
But that begs the issue...
However, that begs the thought...
But that begs the point that...
That begs the presumption that...
It's the kind of line that begs the response...
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> >
> > "CyberCypher" <cyber...@19--16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote...
> > > Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> > > [
> > > > Does OED have a usage of "beg" as in "to beg the question" but
> > > > in a different phrase?
> > >
> > > [quote]
> > > 1. To ask alms or by way of alms. a. trans. To ask (bread,
> > > money, etc.) in alms or as a charitable gift; to procure (one's
> > > living) by begging.
> > > [more detail for that particular usage snipped]
> >
> > Er -- that's the familiar usage of the word, of course. I was
> > asking for the "beg the question" usage, because I can't find any
> > examples of it other than in that particular phrase.
>
> MWCD has "to require as necessary or appropriate", which seems close.
>
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=beg
Interesting -- does any dictionary have examples of this usage?
> Online examples all appear to be modeled on "begs the question", e.g.:
>
> But that begs the issue...
> However, that begs the thought...
> But that begs the point that...
> That begs the presumption that...
> It's the kind of line that begs the response...
Those all seem to use "begs" as "prompts", though, which reinforces my
view that "begs the question" is an idiosyncratic usage which doesn't
deserve to be defended in any way.
Matti
Bob Cunningham
<ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> said:
[...]
> Does OED have a usage of "beg" as in "to beg the question" but in a
> different phrase?
They give examples with that meaning of "beg" used with
other objects: "begging the meaning", "beg the thing in
question", and "begging the point"
The relevant definition is number 6:
beg, v. Second Edition 1989
6. To take for granted without warrant; esp. in
to beg the question: to take for granted the
matter in dispute, to assume without proof.
1581 W. CLARKE in Confer. IV. (1584) Ffiij, I say
this is still to begge the question.
1687 SETTLE Refl. Dryden 13 Here hee's at his old
way of Begging the meaning.
1680 BURNET Rochester (1692) 82 This was to
assert or beg the thing in Question.
1788 REID Aristotle's Log. v. §3. 118 Begging the
question is when the thing to be proved is
assumed in the premises.
1852 ROGERS Ecl. Faith 251 Many say it is begging
the point in dispute.
1870 BOWEN Logic ix. 294 The vulgar equivalent
for petitio principii is begging the question.