Sellotaph

[LFS]

I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
(a series about two very eccentric London policemen).

Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.

Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[James Hogg]

LFS wrote:
> I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
> (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
> across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
> I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
> Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?

A spontaneous guess would be that it's a grave for someone who came to a
sticky end.

--
James

[abc]

LFS wrote:
> I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
> (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
> across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
> I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
> Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?

Er, sellotape, with a spelling mistake?
abc

[LFS]

Sticking and death are certainly involved.

[mrucb...@att.net]

Those are common along highways in the USA as well, but not many would get the sello reference. Maybe ductaph?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

A guess:

A handwritten or printed piece of paper or cardboard with an RIP-style
message taped to a wall or tree where the person died?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[John Dean]

"James Hogg" <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote in message
news:k47258$4mr$1...@dont-email.me...

Bravo!

--
John Dean

[John Dean]

"LFS" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:acoibc...@mid.individual.net...

I find it an excellent traffic calming measure.

--
John Dean

[tony cooper]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:43:08 +0100, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

>I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
>(a series about two very eccentric London policemen).

Synchronicity! Earlier today I returned a Bryant and May book at the
library. Unread, though, except for the first two chapters. I just
couldn't get into it.

>Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
>across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
>I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
>Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?

Well, isn't Sellotape y'all's version of Scotch Tape? That must not
be it since it's far too obvious.

How about a cenotaph made from crumbling material held together with
sticky tape?



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Whiskers]

On 2012-09-29, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
> (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
> across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
> I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
> Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?

I'm with Wikipedia on this one; the spelling is "cellotaph", from the
"Cellophane" wrapping around the flowers (and sometimes around the cuddly
toys, which actually benefit from it much more especially in wet weather).

Both Cellophane and Sellotape are 'generic' terms in Britain, for crinkly
usually transparent wrapping material and sticky-backed plastic tape
respectively. They are also trade names for particular products.

Whether the other half of the word comes from 'cenotaph' or 'epitaph' I
couldn't guess, and it probably doesn't matter. If "Private Eye" coined
the word, they probably went straight back to the same ancient Greek root
anyway.

The word doesn't seem to have caught on, in my experience; most people
refer to such phenomena as 'shrines' or 'memorials' or 'tributes' or even
'monuments'. Some around here have been maintained for several years.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[LFS]

On 29/09/2012 18:20, tony cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:43:08 +0100, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
>> (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> Synchronicity! Earlier today I returned a Bryant and May book at the
> library. Unread, though, except for the first two chapters. I just
> couldn't get into it.

I think you need to read them in order to understand the back stories of
all the characters.

>
>
>
>> Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
>> across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
>> I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>>
>> Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?
>
> Well, isn't Sellotape y'all's version of Scotch Tape? That must not
> be it since it's far too obvious.
>
> How about a cenotaph made from crumbling material held together with
> sticky tape?
>
>
>

Very good: the crumbling material is of a specific type.

[Mike L]

On 29 Sep 2012 22:08:28 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com>
wrote:

And why don't people see that the wrapping ruins the aesthetic effect?
Nice word, though.

--
Mike.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Because under the circumstances people will simply copy what other
people have done.

>Nice word, though.

[Robert Bannister]

On 29/09/12 10:43 PM, LFS wrote:
> I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
> (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
> across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
> I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
> Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?
>

A monument made of sticky tape?
As in "Remember the Scotch".

--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Brooks]

That's what I thought, when I saw the word, but posters here are, I
think, correct in thinking that it's about those horrible, plebile,
mounds of mouldering flowers, wrapped in cellophane, that have become
a popular means of celebrating the death of non-entities.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

In my local experience many such memorials are created by family and
friends of the deceased. There is one less than a mile from me. It
commemorates a child who was accidentally killed while crossing a road
several years ago. I noticed a few days ago that in place of the
succession of bunches of flowers there is now a wreath (probably
artificial).

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 1, 12:08 pm, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

Have they taken the wrapping off the wreath?

What's odd about the behaviour is not the leaving of flowers, which is
understandable, but the leaving of them in their wrappers, so that
they, inevitably, go off.

[James Hogg]

The word is fairly new, but it's interesting to see that it's already a
victim of folk etymology. It must have been coined (in Private Eye?) as
"cellotaph" (neatly combining cenotaph and cellophane) but has already
been reinterpreted by Christopher Fowler and others as Sellotaph. Or
could it be argued that they are now separate words?

--
James

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, isn't the point of these memorials that the person being
remembered is *not* a non-entity to his/her family and friends?

Evidently, you group people into entities who deserve a bronze plate
set in a stone and non-entities who deserve no more than a sad bouquet
wrapped in cellophane. In which group would you be if tragically
killed in an auto accident?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

It is a matter of custom rather than practicality.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Oh, yes.

[JNugent]

"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>>> LFS wrote:

>>> A monument made of sticky tape?
>>> As in "Remember the Scotch".
>
>> That's what I thought, when I saw the word, but posters here are, I
>> think, correct in thinking that it's about those horrible, plebile,
>> mounds of mouldering flowers, wrapped in cellophane, that have become
>> a popular means of celebrating the death of non-entities.
>
> In my local experience many such memorials are created by family and
> friends of the deceased. There is one less than a mile from me. It
> commemorates a child who was accidentally killed while crossing a road
> several years ago. I noticed a few days ago that in place of the
> succession of bunches of flowers there is now a wreath (probably
> artificial).

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-303277/Police-fatal-crash-victims.html>

I pass by the spot a few times a month. The memorial is constantly, but not
over-officiously, maintained, even after the passage of eight years.

<http://tinyurl.com/8z3oaoe>

...shows a view across the carriageways, looking SW.

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 1, 4:10 pm, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

A custom of very recent origin. I don't recall it being spoken of
before that bint died in Paris a few years back and everybody made
such a fuss.

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 1, 3:42 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Oct 1, 3:53 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >> On 29/09/12 10:43 PM, LFS wrote:
>
> >> > I have been reading the latest Bryant and May book by Christopher Fowler
> >> > (a series about two very eccentric London policemen).
>
> >> > Fowler likes to include the occasional arcane word. I had never come
> >> > across sellotaph before but he included a helpful explanatory footnote.
> >> > I suppose that, strictly speaking, it should have a capital S.
>
> >> > Can you guess the meaning and is this a purely British phenomenon?
>
> >> A monument made of sticky tape?
> >> As in "Remember the Scotch".
>
> >That's what I thought, when I saw the word, but posters here are, I
> >think, correct in thinking that it's about those horrible, plebile,
> >mounds of mouldering flowers, wrapped in cellophane, that have become
> >a popular means of celebrating the death of non-entities.
>
> Well, isn't the point of these memorials that the person being
> remembered is *not* a non-entity to his/her family and friends?
>

In the example Peter Duncanson mentioned the person being remembered
is, indeed, not a non-entity, but a real person.

The spectacularly noisome displays are the ones to which I refer -
they are usually mounted in bogus, cod-grief for, as I say, non-
entities, mainly unknown by those who leave the mess.

>
> Evidently, you group people into entities who deserve a bronze plate
> set in a stone and non-entities who deserve no more than a sad bouquet
> wrapped in cellophane.
>

Not at all. The ones with bronze plates set in stone are the very same
non-entities of whom I spoke.

>
> In which group would you be if tragically
> killed in an auto accident?
>

If I were killed in a car accident, I'd be as much of a non-entity as
I am now. I don't think being killed, no matter the means, changes
that. Unless I managed to die spectacularly - as a winner, perhaps, of
a Darwin award.

I'd hope that nobody'd waste their money on flowers for me,
particularly not bought ones, particularly not bought ones with the
wrapping left on. I only hope it mildly as, being dead, it wouldn't
matter a toss to me.

[Mike L]

I'm sure that's right. Depressing. I suppose, though, that the gesture
is more important to people than the appearance.
>
>>Nice word, though.

There's a more lasting and somehow still more touching memorial on the
249 in Kent. It's a high footbridge named "Jade's Crossing" in large
letters and decorated with a figure of a little girl in ballet clothes
executing a pirouette. Jade and her grandmother were both killed
crossing the road on foot. Ironically, though I've quite often driven
under the bridge, I've never seen anybody using it.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 09:42:10 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:28:25 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
><peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

>>That's what I thought, when I saw the word, but posters here are, I
>>think, correct in thinking that it's about those horrible, plebile,
>>mounds of mouldering flowers, wrapped in cellophane, that have become
>>a popular means of celebrating the death of non-entities.
>
>Well, isn't the point of these memorials that the person being
>remembered is *not* a non-entity to his/her family and friends?
>

Sometimes, Tony, it's worth trying. Sometimes, not so much.

>Evidently, you group people into entities who deserve a bronze plate
>set in a stone and non-entities who deserve no more than a sad bouquet
>wrapped in cellophane. In which group would you be if tragically
>killed in an auto accident?


--

Mike.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <slrnk6esc8.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,

Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>The word doesn't seem to have caught on, in my experience; most people
>refer to such phenomena as 'shrines' or 'memorials' or 'tributes' or even
>'monuments'. Some around here have been maintained for several years.

Aren't they supposed to be called "*makeshift* shrines/memorials/etc."?
That seems to be the journalistic convention here. (Goes along with
those "saffron-robed" Burmese monks of a few years ago, who turned out
upon closer inspection to be wearing *crimson* robes, as noted by Fred
Vultee at "Heads Up!".)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <09009bf2-d522-4b8d...@s8g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:

>That's what I thought, when I saw the word, but posters here are, I
>think, correct in thinking that it's about those horrible, plebile,
>mounds of mouldering flowers, wrapped in cellophane, that have become
>a popular means of celebrating the death of non-entities.

Wow, what a noxious twit Brooks is!

[Robert Bannister]

Everywhere, but the flowers do get, if not renewed, added to
occasionally, and those little white crosses seem to stay there forever
and a day.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

But surely a relatively new custom. Perhaps it started when Diana died.
--
Robert Bannister

[tony cooper]

The Florida Department of Transportation started placing these signs
at the request of the family of the deceased in 1990. That was seven
years before the death of Diana.

http://www.floridaplates.com/memorial/index.htm

The FDOT will place the sign, but maintenance of any flowers, wreaths,
etc is the responsibility of the family

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 00:55:12 -0400, tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>The Florida Department of Transportation started placing these signs
>at the request of the family of the deceased in 1990. That was seven
>years before the death of Diana.
>
>http://www.floridaplates.com/memorial/index.htm
>
>The FDOT will place the sign, but maintenance of any flowers, wreaths,
>etc is the responsibility of the family

I first noticed such wayside shrines in Greece in 1998, and in Albania in
2000.

A couple of years later they were appearing in South Africa too.

Here's a picture of one in our neighbourhood:

http://ondermynende.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/death-in-the-neigbourhood/

but I would say that that is more than a "sellotaph" or "cellotaph".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Cheryl]

I thought that the roadside crosses, if not the flowers, originated in
the American southwest, possibly having moved up from Mexico. They
certainly appeared there earlier than in, say, north-eastern Canada,
where they are still not common, but I'm open to suggestions as to other
origins for the custom.

--
Cheryl

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 11:30:47 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

I was thinking not just of a general custom but people copying what
others have done at a particular time and place.

This photo of flowers left near the grave of the late Sen. Ted Kennedy
shows some flowers still wrapped and others not.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-08-31/news/29436049_1_edward-moore-kennedy-mums-ted-kennedy

I've sometimes wondered whether the reason for leaving flowers wrapped
is that that is how you would present them to a person.

[Peter Brooks]

That's an interesting idea. So it might have links to the Mexican 'day
of the dead'?

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 2, 2:18 pm, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 11:30:47 +0800, Robert Bannister
>
>

> I've sometimes wondered whether the reason for leaving flowers wrapped
> is that that is how you would present them to a person.
>

I hadn't thought of that. I'd thought that it was to show that they
had been bought from a shop, rather than picked from a garden.

[tony cooper]

Easily researched with Google:

The origin of roadside crosses in the United States has its roots with
the early Hispanic settlers of the Southwestern United States, and are
common in areas with large Hispanic populations. Formerly, in funerary
processions where a group would proceed from a church to a graveyard
carrying a coffin, the bearers would take a rest, or descanso in
Spanish, and wherever they set the coffin down, a cross would be
placed there in memory of the event. The modern practice of roadside
shrines commemorate the last place a person was alive before receiving
fatal injuries in a car crash, even if he should actually die in a
hospital after the crash.

In the southwestern United States, they are also common at historic
parajes on old long distance trails, going back to the roots of the
tradition, and also marked the graves of people who died while
traveling. A descanso memorial may be decorated especially for the
holidays, and for significant anniversaries in the person's life. A
descanso memorial for a child may be decorated with special toys, even
toy vignettes of family life, and votive candles may be placed there
on special nights.

[Skitt]

Rules regarding roadside memorials vary from state to state, They are
illegal in fifteen states.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/roomfordebate/State_Roadside_Mem_Laws.pdf

or http://tinyurl.com/8fuoqge
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[tony cooper]

I don't want to come across as unsympathetic to bereaved families, but
if I was a city worker I'd consider them a pain in the ass. The main
artery near my house is dotted with these memorials. Every time the
city crews mow the grass on the verge they have to maneuver around
them. Since we mow grass twelve months a year down here, the extra
time represents quite a bit of taxpayer dollars spent in accommodating
these memorials.

I'd go for a law that allows the memorials to remain in place for,
say, a year and then be removed.

[Mike L]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:09:23 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <slrnk6esc8.1...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
>Whiskers <catwh...@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
>>The word doesn't seem to have caught on, in my experience; most people
>>refer to such phenomena as 'shrines' or 'memorials' or 'tributes' or even
>>'monuments'. Some around here have been maintained for several years.
>
>Aren't they supposed to be called "*makeshift* shrines/memorials/etc."?
>That seems to be the journalistic convention here. (Goes along with
>those "saffron-robed" Burmese monks of a few years ago, who turned out
>upon closer inspection to be wearing *crimson* robes, as noted by Fred
>Vultee at "Heads Up!".)
>

Hey, everybody knows that Catholics are devout, libraries are dusty,
lawns are manicured, roadside bombs are improvised, etc: are you
trying to make people think or something?

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:38:50 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
><peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 2, 1:37�pm, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:

[...]

The flowers were being placed years before Princess Diana; but I don't
think it was felt to be all but obligatory as it seems to be now.

I remember roadside crosses and crucifixes in Ireland in the
'fifties*: many of them were clearly permanent. I don't know if
England too had a native tradition of marking the resting places of
biers, but the custom certainly wasn't unknown: Charing Cross is the
London end of Queen Eleanor's journey from Lincon. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_cross

*Quotation from an RUC man who gave me a lift near the border in about
'62: "They're lovely people. We go on our holidays there, but you're
taking your life in your hands on the roads: they're like children
behind the wheel."


--
Mike.

[Whiskers]

The sea of tributes outside Kensington Palace was certainly spectacular,
and got a lot of press attention. But I'm sure I can remember flowers
being laid at the site of fatal car crashes when I was a child, in the
1950s (in Devon and Cornwall). Flowers would also be placed outside, or
inside, the home of someone who'd died - even if they'd died somewhere
else.

The association of flowers with death seems to be ancient. The cellophane
wrapping is just something modern florists do to make the flowers easier to
transport - and when you get to the place, if you take off the wrapping,
what's going to stop the flowers from blowing away, and what are you going
to do with yards of damp crumpled crinkly stuff?

'Votive lamps' are a new addition, which I don't remember from before about
1970; possibly something influenced by 'hippy' practices, although of
course use of lamps and candles in religious ceremonies is another ancient
thing.

The soft toys, plastic 'windmills', balloons, and other tokens, are recent
additions - but there may be a link with pagan customs (which still persist
all over Britain) associated with particular trees, springs, wells, rocks,
bridges, and so on.

Once a place has become 'special', people do there what they do at special
places. Future historians and ethnologists and so on may be interested to
see how long some of these new special places remain special, and what
explanations are offered by those who can't remember the original event.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Whiskers]

I'd suggest a pragmatic approach would be to set aside a particular spot
for floral and other tributes, for the convenience of everyone - and then
concentrate on correcting whatever design fault in the road generates so
many deaths.

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, Mike L wrote:

[...]

>*Quotation from an RUC man who gave me a lift near the border in about
>'62: "They're lovely people. We go on our holidays there, but you're
>taking your life in your hands on the roads: they're like children
>behind the wheel."

(And don't they build godawful bungalows everywhere, nyeae.)

Has anyone yet suggested that, outside of conventionally pious cultures,
roadside cellotaphs are mostly an expression of anger? Roads are
dangerous; they kill our children*; so watch your speed. They are
intended, at least in part, to be yet another distracting road sign.

===
*Or, more usually hereabouts, our born-again-biker fathers or even
grandfathers (who were almost certainly on the wrong side of the road
and going far, far too fast, because highly tuned modern mega-bikes are
just too much for old men to handle; slow down, stay alive and stop
ruining everyone's Sundays; but RIP).

--
VB

[Cheryl]

On 02/10/2012 6:13 PM, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, Mike L wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> *Quotation from an RUC man who gave me a lift near the border in about
>> '62: "They're lovely people. We go on our holidays there, but you're
>> taking your life in your hands on the roads: they're like children
>> behind the wheel."
>
> (And don't they build godawful bungalows everywhere, nyeae.)
>
> Has anyone yet suggested that, outside of conventionally pious cultures,
> roadside cellotaphs are mostly an expression of anger? Roads are
> dangerous; they kill our children*; so watch your speed. They are
> intended, at least in part, to be yet another distracting road sign.

I've never thought that about the practice; I thought it was either due
to a desire to memorialize the dead (in the case of relatives and
friends) in some more visible spot than a graveyard or columbarium, or a
rather pathetic attempt to say 'She was important to me, too! Like a
family member, really, even though I never actually met Princess Di...'


--
Cheryl

[LFS]

On 02/10/2012 21:43, Vinny Burgoo wrote:

>
> Has anyone yet suggested that, outside of conventionally pious cultures,
> roadside cellotaphs are mostly an expression of anger? Roads are
> dangerous; they kill our children*; so watch your speed. They are
> intended, at least in part, to be yet another distracting road sign.
>

I think that's a very good point. Around here there are several places
where people have lost their lives and the (frequently renewed) bunches
of flowers serve as a stark reminder not only of the individuals but
that those particular spots are dangerous.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/10/12 4:16 AM, Whiskers wrote:

> The soft toys, plastic 'windmills', balloons, and other tokens, are recent
> additions - but there may be a link with pagan customs (which still persist
> all over Britain) associated with particular trees, springs, wells, rocks,
> bridges, and so on.
>
> Once a place has become 'special', people do there what they do at special
> places. Future historians and ethnologists and so on may be interested to
> see how long some of these new special places remain special, and what
> explanations are offered by those who can't remember the original event.

Sacred sites in the making.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 3/10/12 3:40 AM, Mike L wrote:

> The flowers were being placed years before Princess Diana; but I don't
> think it was felt to be all but obligatory as it seems to be now.
>
> I remember roadside crosses and crucifixes in Ireland in the
> 'fifties*: many of them were clearly permanent. I don't know if
> England too had a native tradition of marking the resting places of
> biers, but the custom certainly wasn't unknown: Charing Cross is the
> London end of Queen Eleanor's journey from Lincon.

Even King Edward was thought slightly mad because of all his cross
building. I do not remember roadside crosses in England or Australia
until almost the 80s. I also do not remember so many teenage deaths with
entire high schools requiring counselling. I think there is some connection.

--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 2, 10:21 pm, Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com> wrote:
> On 2012-10-02, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 10:13:22 -0700, Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>On 10/1/2012 9:55 PM, tony cooper wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 11:30:47 +0800, Robert Bannister
> >>> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> On 1/10/12 10:10 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
> >>>>> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> What's odd about the behaviour is not the leaving of flowers, which is
> >>>>>> understandable, but the leaving of them in their wrappers, so that
> >>>>>> they, inevitably, go off.
>
> >>>>> It is a matter of custom rather than practicality.
>
> >>>> But surely a relatively new custom. Perhaps it started when Diana died.
>
> >>> The Florida Department of Transportation started placing these signs
> >>> at the request of the family of the deceased in 1990.  That was seven
> >>> years before the death of Diana.
>
> >>>http://www.floridaplates.com/memorial/index.htm
>
> >>> The FDOT will place the sign, but maintenance of any flowers, wreaths,
> >>> etc is the responsibility of the family
>
> >>Rules regarding roadside memorials vary from state to state,  They are
> >>illegal in fifteen states.
>

> >>http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/roomfordebate/State_Roadsid...
>
> >>orhttp://tinyurl.com/8fuoqge

>
> > I don't want to come across as unsympathetic to bereaved families, but
> > if I was a city worker I'd consider them a pain in the ass.  The main
> > artery near my house is dotted with these memorials.  Every time the
> > city crews mow the grass on the verge they have to maneuver around
> > them.  Since we mow grass twelve months a year down here, the extra
> > time represents quite a bit of taxpayer dollars spent in accommodating
> > these memorials.
>
> > I'd go for a law that allows the memorials to remain in place for,
> > say, a year and then be removed.
>
> I'd suggest a pragmatic approach would be to set aside a particular spot
> for floral and other tributes, for the convenience of everyone - and then
> concentrate on correcting whatever design fault in the road generates so
> many deaths.
>

That's much too sensible, it'll never catch on.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

The roadside memorial nearest to me has a particularly poignant and
frustrating history. A few decades ago a new road was built as a bypass
to a built-up area. It goes through a gap between two residential areas.
There was a footpath between the two areas so a pedestrian crossing with
lights was provided so that people could cross the road safely. The
speed limit on the road is 50 mph. The planners expected trouble from
local kids so the lights were enclosed in strong metal mesh protection.
This protection did not deter the local young vandals who managed to
repeatedly put the lights out of action. Eventually the authorities ran
out of funding - a new set of lights a few times a year is not cheap. So
for several years there were no traffic lights. It was during that time
that the fatal accident occurred. New traffic lights were installed and
have not been vandalised since. Sometimes when I drive past I wonder
whether the child killed was a close relative of, even a child of, one
of the original young vandals.

Google Street View and Satellite view of the place:
http://goo.gl/maps/0L4dL

It is just a few hundred yards North-ish of the factory where the
Delorean cars were built.

[Robin Bignall]

We have a road situation similar to that. No deaths, but to cross it
they built a long tunnel instead of a pedestrian bridge. The lights in
the tunnel were constantly being broken. There have been so many
muggings and attempted interference with women and girls in that tunnel
that they've had to replace it with traffic lights, which interrupt the
constant flow of heavy lorries to the many industrial estates around
here.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England

[Mike L]

On 2 Oct 2012 20:16:16 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
[...]

>
>The sea of tributes outside Kensington Palace was certainly spectacular,
>and got a lot of press attention.

The small community at St Clears in West Wales hired a couple of
coaches "to see the flowers", but I think there was a more serious, if
perhaps not conscious, ritual just below the surface.

>But I'm sure I can remember flowers
>being laid at the site of fatal car crashes when I was a child, in the
>1950s (in Devon and Cornwall). Flowers would also be placed outside, or
>inside, the home of someone who'd died - even if they'd died somewhere
>else.
>
>The association of flowers with death seems to be ancient. The cellophane
>wrapping is just something modern florists do to make the flowers easier to
>transport - and when you get to the place, if you take off the wrapping,
>what's going to stop the flowers from blowing away, and what are you going
>to do with yards of damp crumpled crinkly stuff?
>
>'Votive lamps' are a new addition, which I don't remember from before about
>1970; possibly something influenced by 'hippy' practices, although of
>course use of lamps and candles in religious ceremonies is another ancient
>thing.
>
>The soft toys, plastic 'windmills', balloons, and other tokens, are recent
>additions - but there may be a link with pagan customs (which still persist
>all over Britain) associated with particular trees, springs, wells, rocks,
>bridges, and so on.

It's rare to see a fountain, however new and plain, without coins in
it: I find it hard to resist the idea that there's some subconscious
thing going on. I once had the privilege of showing an Australian
Aboriginal a delightful and very secluded little Welsh sacred spring:
he loved it, and was delighted to see that even barbarians like us
could still have sacred places (we whites often vandalise theirs: he
had some cruel photographs).

>
>Once a place has become 'special', people do there what they do at special
>places. Future historians and ethnologists and so on may be interested to
>see how long some of these new special places remain special, and what
>explanations are offered by those who can't remember the original event.

--

Mike.

[Whiskers]

Yes. One near here, I noticed today, has gained earthenware vases wired to
the fence, for holding bunches of flowers, and the variety of wreaths seems
to be diminishing - perhaps a standard design is evolving? There is a lot
less cellophane there now. Of course, that could be purely economic.

[Whiskers]

On 2012-10-03, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 2 Oct 2012 20:16:16 GMT, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

[...]

> It's rare to see a fountain, however new and plain, without coins in
> it: I find it hard to resist the idea that there's some subconscious
> thing going on. I once had the privilege of showing an Australian
> Aboriginal a delightful and very secluded little Welsh sacred spring:
> he loved it, and was delighted to see that even barbarians like us
> could still have sacred places (we whites often vandalise theirs: he
> had some cruel photographs).

It's being exploited for charitable purposes; I know of a supermarket and a
'garden centre' both of which have indoor pools which are used to collect
coins - one has a bell over it, which some people like to throw their coins
at to get a public announcement of their marksmanship (or something).
Sadly, both have been fitted with stout wire mesh lids to prevent
opportunistic removal of the money.

[Richard Bollard]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 04:08:09 +0100, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

Except that many of the ones I see are in ordinary spots where the
accident can only have been the result of something extraordinary
happening. That is, the road itself is not a factor.

There is some element of "not letting go" about the monuments that
saddens me as much or more than the original misadventure. I feel
sometimes that my nose is being shoved into what should be someone's
private grief.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

[Robert Bannister]

While that is certainly true of some, most of the crosses and flowers I
see are not at dangerous places at all and are mainly monuments to
foolish teenage driving.

One I pass almost every day is placed at the foot of a lamppost on the
footpath of a major road opposite a small side-street:

| |
| |
| -----------
X|
| -----------
| |

It seems fairly likely that someone shot out of the side-street in an
attempt to turn right (we drive on the left here) and didn't make it. I
don't recall reading about the incident; it must have been at least
twenty years ago, but someone is keeping fresh flowers there all the time.
--
Robert Bannister

[LFS]

The one I pass most often is fixed to a lamppost at the side of the very
busy ring road which at that point, as it approaches a very busy
interchange, has three lanes in each direction with a central reservation.

The interchange has been reconfigured: at the time of the fatality
commemorated it was a roundabout but now traffic lights slow the traffic
down on the approaches. There is a rather nasty pedestrian subway and a
crossing with pedestrian controlled lights but both of these are some
distance away and many people, particularly children late for school,
prefer to take their chances and cross through the traffic, breaking
their transit on the central reservation. This is now less dangerous
than it was when a teenager known to us attempted this many years ago
with fatal results. The flowers have appeared every week ever since,
although his family moved away from the area a long time ago.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

The problem seems to be that a decision not to perpetuate such a
memorial by renewing flowers can be interpreted as a deliberate act of
disrespect.

[tony cooper]

On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:43:39 +1000, Richard Bollard
<rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 04:08:09 +0100, LFS
><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 02/10/2012 21:43, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone yet suggested that, outside of conventionally pious cultures,
>>> roadside cellotaphs are mostly an expression of anger? Roads are
>>> dangerous; they kill our children*; so watch your speed. They are
>>> intended, at least in part, to be yet another distracting road sign.
>>>
>>
>>I think that's a very good point. Around here there are several places
>>where people have lost their lives and the (frequently renewed) bunches
>>of flowers serve as a stark reminder not only of the individuals but
>>that those particular spots are dangerous.
>
>Except that many of the ones I see are in ordinary spots where the
>accident can only have been the result of something extraordinary
>happening. That is, the road itself is not a factor.

Agreed. Most of the markers around here are a result of someone
running a red light or driving when intoxicated. There's no road fix
for those kind of accidents.

[GordonD]

"Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnk6mitt.g...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...

> On 2012-10-02, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> On 1/10/12 10:10 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> What's odd about the behaviour is not the leaving of flowers, which is
>>>> understandable, but the leaving of them in their wrappers, so that
>>>> they, inevitably, go off.
>>>>
>>> It is a matter of custom rather than practicality.
>>>
>>
>> But surely a relatively new custom. Perhaps it started when Diana died.
>
> The sea of tributes outside Kensington Palace was certainly spectacular,
> and got a lot of press attention. But I'm sure I can remember flowers
> being laid at the site of fatal car crashes when I was a child, in the
> 1950s (in Devon and Cornwall). Flowers would also be placed outside, or
> inside, the home of someone who'd died - even if they'd died somewhere
> else.

I'm confused now. Is the custom which supposedly started with Diana's death
the placing of flowers (in large numbers) or leaving the wrappers on?

Because eight years before Diana a *huge* number of floral tributes were
placed at Anfield (home of Liverpool FC) in memory of those who died in the
Hillsborough disaster. They covered half of the pitch.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

[Whiskers]

On 2012-10-04, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnk6mitt.g...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
>> On 2012-10-02, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> On 1/10/12 10:10 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>>> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> What's odd about the behaviour is not the leaving of flowers, which is
>>>>> understandable, but the leaving of them in their wrappers, so that
>>>>> they, inevitably, go off.
>>>>>
>>>> It is a matter of custom rather than practicality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But surely a relatively new custom. Perhaps it started when Diana died.
>>
>> The sea of tributes outside Kensington Palace was certainly spectacular,
>> and got a lot of press attention. But I'm sure I can remember flowers
>> being laid at the site of fatal car crashes when I was a child, in the
>> 1950s (in Devon and Cornwall). Flowers would also be placed outside, or
>> inside, the home of someone who'd died - even if they'd died somewhere
>> else.
>
>
> I'm confused now. Is the custom which supposedly started with Diana's death
> the placing of flowers (in large numbers) or leaving the wrappers on?

Neither. I think. The thread has forked in several directions since the
OP asked about the word (rather than the practice).

> Because eight years before Diana a *huge* number of floral tributes were
> placed at Anfield (home of Liverpool FC) in memory of those who died in the
> Hillsborough disaster. They covered half of the pitch.

I think it's an ancient custom.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 22:29:05 +0100, "GordonD" <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

Yes. The flowers seem to have been in wrappers.

There were also Liverpool FC shirts and scarves on the pitch. Shirts ans
scarves were also draped over the barriers on the terraces and hung from
the goal visible in the picture:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02338/Liverpool-fans_2338071b.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02347/WN-LIVERPOOL10_2347996b.jpg

"You'll Never Walk Alone" is the Liverpool FC supporters' anthem.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <ad4g2t...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>While that is certainly true of some, most of the crosses and flowers I
>see are not at dangerous places at all and are mainly monuments to
>foolish teenage driving.

There's a ghost bike at an intersection I pass through twice each work
day. A student was killed there by a truck failing to yield when
making a right turn.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 5, 3:46 am, woll...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> In article <ad4g2tFtqv...@mid.individual.net>,

> Robert Bannister  <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
> >While that is certainly true of some, most of the crosses and flowers I
> >see are not at dangerous places at all and are mainly monuments to
> >foolish teenage driving.
>
> There's a ghost bike at an intersection I pass through twice each work
> day.  A student was killed there by a truck failing to yield when
> making a right turn.
>

Failing to see the 'bike, I'd have thought.

[Robert Bannister]

On 4/10/12 7:47 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

> The problem seems to be that a decision not to perpetuate such a
> memorial by renewing flowers can be interpreted as a deliberate act of
> disrespect.

I wondered whether perhaps, having acquired a degree of sanctity through
custom, these spots continued to have flowers bestowed on them by total
strangers seeking blessings from the gods long after the bereaved have
stopped.

There seem to have been a number of Gods of Roads:
Greece: Hermes or Artemis or Hecate
Egypt: Min
China: Lu Shen
D&D: Fharlanghn
Rome: Adeona or Fortuna Redux
Polynesia: Hina
Tibet: Lam Lha
Ireland: Rhiannon

In fact, once I started investigating I found many more without even
including St. Christopher, so leaving floral or monetary tributes at
wayside shrines is a long established custom. Give it time, and we'll
start seeing food or precious oils and spices being left there.

--
Robert Bannister
Thinking of starting up a frankincense business

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 5, 5:41 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 4/10/12 7:47 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
> > The problem seems to be that a decision not to perpetuate such a
> > memorial by renewing flowers can be interpreted as a deliberate act of
> > disrespect.
>
> I wondered whether perhaps, having acquired a degree of sanctity through
> custom, these spots continued to have flowers bestowed on them by total
> strangers seeking blessings from the gods long after the bereaved have
> stopped.
>
> There seem to have been a number of Gods of Roads:
> Greece: Hermes or Artemis or Hecate
> Egypt: Min
> China: Lu Shen
> D&D: Fharlanghn
> Rome: Adeona or Fortuna Redux
> Polynesia: Hina
> Tibet: Lam Lha
> Ireland: Rhiannon
>

I'm surprised to see Hecate in that company - wikipaedia says that
she's more a crossroad and entrance goddess, rather than one for the
road in general.

>
> In fact, once I started investigating I found many more without even
> including St. Christopher, so leaving floral or monetary tributes at
> wayside shrines is a long established custom. Give it time, and we'll
> start seeing food or precious oils and spices being left there.
>

There are quite attractive roadside shrines in Greece.

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 11:41:29 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:

>On 4/10/12 7:47 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>> The problem seems to be that a decision not to perpetuate such a
>> memorial by renewing flowers can be interpreted as a deliberate act of
>> disrespect.
>
>I wondered whether perhaps, having acquired a degree of sanctity through
>custom, these spots continued to have flowers bestowed on them by total
>strangers seeking blessings from the gods long after the bereaved have
>stopped.

I recently indicated an example with photograph, in one of my blog posts.

Now someone has left a comment suggesting that it may be an example of
(un)sympathetic magic -- not that the corss and flowers indicate that someone
died there, but rather that someone wishes they would, and is placing the
cross and flowers there as a means to bring that about.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 5, 7:22 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 11:41:29 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 4/10/12 7:47 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
> >> The problem seems to be that a decision not to perpetuate such a
> >> memorial by renewing flowers can be interpreted as a deliberate act of
> >> disrespect.
>
> >I wondered whether perhaps, having acquired a degree of sanctity through
> >custom, these spots continued to have flowers bestowed on them by total
> >strangers seeking blessings from the gods long after the bereaved have
> >stopped.
>
> I recently indicated an example with photograph, in one of my blog posts.
>
> Now someone has left a comment suggesting that it may be an example of
> (un)sympathetic magic -- not that the corss and flowers indicate that someone
> died there, but rather that someone wishes they would, and is placing the
> cross and flowers there as a means to bring that about.
>

Isn't that a rather non-specific misanthropy? How would it target an
individual?

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:

>
>On Oct 5, 7:22=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>> Now someone has left a comment suggesting that it may be an example of

>> (un)sympathetic magic -- not that the corss and flowers indicate that som=

>eone
>> died there, but rather that someone wishes they would, and is placing the
>> cross and flowers there as a means to bring that about.
>>
>Isn't that a rather non-specific misanthropy? How would it target an
>individual?

I imagine you need to acquire a bit of the target's hair....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Steve Hayes]

It does have the "target's" name on it.

[Peter Brooks]

On Oct 6, 8:48 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 22:29:36 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>

> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Oct 5, 7:22 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> I recently indicated an example with photograph, in one of my blog posts.
>
> >> Now someone has left a comment suggesting that it may be an example of
> >> (un)sympathetic magic -- not that the corss and flowers indicate that someone
> >> died there, but rather that someone wishes they would, and is placing the
> >> cross and flowers there as a means to bring that about.
>
> >Isn't that a rather non-specific misanthropy? How would it target an
> >individual?
>
> It does have the "target's" name on it.
>

Oh, I see, just as well magic can read then.

[Mike L]

It's the spirits. There was a magic spring in Wales whose owner would
charge a modest fee to any who wanted to drop in a curse on somebody.
He would then discreetly suggest to the victim that a counter-curse
might be advisable, and collect another modest fee. (Not unlike the
armaments industry, it occurs to me.) The reason I was able to read
about this particular one was that he ended up being prosecuted; there
must have been others.

--
Mike.

[Peter Brooks]

Prosecuted for what? Whatever it was, I'd imagine that they'd be able
to do other organised god-bothering under the same terms.

[Mike L]

Witchcraft? Fraud? I don't remember; but it was in the 19th C, I
think.

--
Mike.