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What is this phrase from the COD?

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Harrison Hill

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Feb 9, 2012, 7:27:21 AM2/9/12
to
"Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"

What is this phrase from the COD?

Pablo

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Feb 9, 2012, 7:31:25 AM2/9/12
to
Harrison Hill escribió:

> "Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"
>
> What is this phrase from the COD?

I don't think any English words start with a question mark.

--
Pablo

Peter Moylan

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Feb 9, 2012, 7:38:08 AM2/9/12
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Harrison Hill wrote:
> "Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"
>
> What is this phrase from the COD?

What is this thing called, love?

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Harrison Hill

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Feb 9, 2012, 8:05:19 AM2/9/12
to
You have obviously never spoken back-slang.

James Hogg

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Feb 9, 2012, 8:29:34 AM2/9/12
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gr-f

--
James

Steve Hayes

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Feb 9, 2012, 9:18:24 AM2/9/12
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whoosh.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Harrison Hill

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Feb 9, 2012, 9:39:22 AM2/9/12
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On Feb 9, 2:18 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 04:27:21 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill
>
> <harrisonhill2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >"Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"
>
> >What is this phrase from the COD?
>
> whoosh.

Whoosh me no whooshes Steven! This is a perfectly sensible question.
If you can't understand it, that is different matter.

Duggy

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Feb 9, 2012, 9:22:51 PM2/9/12
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I don't think any English phrases include an equals sign.

===
= DUG.
===
gr, r.
===

Harrison Hill

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Feb 10, 2012, 2:08:18 AM2/10/12
to
Then you are as wrongheaded as Pablo who at least has the advantage
over you of sounding Spanish. A phrase is a:

"Mode of expression, diction, as in simple~, felicity of ~; an
idiomatic expression; small group of words..."

...and so on, according to my COD. But maybe you don't think any
Englsh phrase includes the caret? The clever people have already
worked out the answer to this and are sitting on their hands...so:

### Well grounded = Well founded ###

To English builders "groundworks" and "foundations" are the same
thing.

James Hogg

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Feb 10, 2012, 7:20:45 AM2/10/12
to
I gave this answer yesterday.

--
James

Pablo

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Feb 10, 2012, 8:06:25 AM2/10/12
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Harrison Hill escribió:

> On Feb 10, 2:22 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 10:31 pm, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Harrison Hill escribió:
>>
>> > > "Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"
>>
>> > > What is this phrase from the COD?
>>
>> > I don't think any English words start with a question mark.
>>
>> I don't think any English phrases include an equals sign.
>
> Then you are as wrongheaded as Pablo who at least has the advantage
> over you of sounding Spanish.

I'm British.

I was simply referring to the question marks. Thinking that maybe you'd
posted using a strange codepage, I tried them all, but still only got
question marks.

And anyway, it seems the missing letters are ascii so I have no idea what's
going on.

--
Pablo

Harrison Hill

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Feb 10, 2012, 10:28:54 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 1:06 pm, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Harrison Hill escribió:
>
> > On Feb 10, 2:22 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> >> On Feb 9, 10:31 pm, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >> > Harrison Hill escribió:
>
> >> > > "Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"
>
> >> > > What is this phrase from the COD?
>
> >> > I don't think any English words start with a question mark.
>
> >> I don't think any English phrases include an equals sign.
>
> > Then you are as wrongheaded as Pablo who at least has the advantage
> > over you of sounding Spanish.
>
> I'm British.
>
> I was simply referring to the question marks. Thinking that maybe you'd
> posted using a strange codepage, I tried them all, but still only got
> question marks.
>
> And anyway, it seems the missing letters are ascii so I have no idea what's
> going on.

The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
single character. Others are:
"#" (hash) = any single digit.
"*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.

Sorry for causing confusion and muddling you up with Manuel!

David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 10, 2012, 11:06:47 AM2/10/12
to
Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> writes:

> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> single character. Others are:
> "#" (hash) = any single digit.

Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit? (Not
perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).

> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.

SQL seems to use "%", just to confuse the issue.

> Sorry for causing confusion and muddling you up with Manuel!

They're useful conventions. I also find myself using Regexp square
bracket notation for alternative letters.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

Harrison Hill

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Feb 10, 2012, 11:36:52 AM2/10/12
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On Feb 10, 4:06 pm, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> Harrison Hill <harrisonhill2...@gmail.com> writes:
> > The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> > single character. Others are:
> > "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>
> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit?  (Not
> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).

Visual Basic - I use Excel's VBA. Spreadsheets are perfect for
complicated thought processes; programming is the only way to "read"
stuff using the "Like" operator; and there is only one place those two
facilities co-exist (AFAIAA) and that is in Excel.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/swf8kaxw(v=vs.71).aspx

Pablo

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Feb 10, 2012, 12:09:42 PM2/10/12
to
Harrison Hill escribió:

>> >> > > "Well ??ounded = Well ?ounded"

> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> single character.

I still don't understand the question (which, depending on language could be
eithet comparison or assignment).

Was it referring to any word ending with "...rounded". Starting with either
1 or 2 letters?

Or if it refers to 2 specific options, why weren't they listed?

Confused.

--
Pablo

Skitt

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Feb 10, 2012, 1:37:30 PM2/10/12
to
Harrison Hill wrote:

> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> single character. Others are:
> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.

Asterix?

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

R H Draney

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Feb 10, 2012, 2:24:04 PM2/10/12
to
Skitt filted:
>
>Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>> single character. Others are:
>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>
>Asterix?

The gall!...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Horace LaBadie

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Feb 10, 2012, 2:34:50 PM2/10/12
to
In article <jh3o57$v8t$1...@news.albasani.net>,
Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Harrison Hill wrote:
>
> > The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> > single character. Others are:
> > "#" (hash) = any single digit.
> > "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>
> Asterix?

That took Gaul.

David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 10, 2012, 3:38:31 PM2/10/12
to
Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> writes:

> Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>> single character. Others are:
>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>
> Asterix?

I have but one * for my country!

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Feb 10, 2012, 5:27:24 PM2/10/12
to
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

> Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>> single character. Others are:
>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>
> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit? (Not
> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).

You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:

format STDOUT =
@### @##.### @#.#
$n, $price, $avg
.

or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
SF Bay Area (1982-) |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Chicago (1964-1982) |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
evan.kir...@gmail.com |analysis before you could be sure
|that it was not made of green
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |cheese.
| Bergen Evans


David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 10, 2012, 6:01:54 PM2/10/12
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Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
>> Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>>> single character. Others are:
>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>>
>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit? (Not
>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>
> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>
> format STDOUT =
> @### @##.### @#.#
> $n, $price, $avg
> .
>
> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".

Sure. But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are for
matching against things.

Duggy

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Feb 10, 2012, 6:30:43 PM2/10/12
to
I thought the question had already been answered.

===
= DUG.
===

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Feb 10, 2012, 8:53:53 PM2/10/12
to
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>
>>> Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>>>> single character. Others are:
>>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>>>
>>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit? (Not
>>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>>
>> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>>
>> format STDOUT =
>> @### @##.### @#.#
>> $n, $price, $avg
>> .
>>
>> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".
>
> Sure. But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are
> for matching against things.

Wildcards are for any time one symbol stands for any of a set of
symbols.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The look on our faces isn't confusion.
SF Bay Area (1982-) |It's disbelief.
Chicago (1964-1982) |
| Jon Stewart
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/


annily

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Feb 10, 2012, 8:58:46 PM2/10/12
to
Ah, that makes more sense than my guess, which only got the first one right.

Steve Hayes

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Feb 11, 2012, 2:20:03 AM2/11/12
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:37:30 -0800, Skitt <ski...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>> single character. Others are:
>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>
>Asterix?

The gall!

Peter Brooks

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Feb 11, 2012, 2:46:36 AM2/11/12
to
On Feb 11, 4:53 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
> > Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
> >>> Harrison Hill <harrisonhill2...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> >>>> single character. Others are:
> >>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>
> >>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit?  (Not
> >>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>
> >> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>
> >>   format STDOUT =
> >>   @###  @##.###  @#.#
> >>   $n,   $price,  $avg
> >>   .
>
> >> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".
>
> > Sure.  But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are
> > for matching against things.
>
> Wildcards are for any time one symbol stands for any of a set of
> symbols.
>
So, in a regular expression such as '^A*', the '*' is a wildcard, but
the "^" is tame, being an anchor, not a wild card. The full expression
would be called a 'wildcard expression' because it contains one.

This seems to be supported by the OED, which, interestingly, gives the
origin - I thought it was from the joker in cards, but it seems that I
was wrong, there was an intermediate step between the playing card and
the meta-character.

"
wild card, (a) (see sense 15 b above); also fig.; (b) Sport (orig.
U.S.), a player or team chosen for a tournament at the discretion of
the organizers after the regular places have been taken up; freq.
attrib.; (c) Computers, a character that will match any character or
combination of characters in a file name, etc.;
"

"
b.A.II.15.b Of a playing card: having any rank chosen by the player
holding it. Also fig. See also wild card, sense 16 below.
"

Steve Hayes

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Feb 11, 2012, 5:01:41 AM2/11/12
to
On 10 Feb 2012 11:24:04 -0800, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Skitt filted:
>>
>>Harrison Hill wrote:
>>
>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>>> single character. Others are:
>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>>> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>>
>>Asterix?
>
>The gall!...r

Snap!

Harrison Hill

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Feb 11, 2012, 5:06:52 AM2/11/12
to
On Feb 11, 10:01 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2012 11:24:04 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Skitt filted:
>
> >>Harrison Hill wrote:
>
> >>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> >>> single character. Others are:
> >>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
> >>> "*" (asterix) = any amount of anything or nothing.
>
> >>Asterix?
>
> >The gall!...r
>
> Snap!

Nearly an asterism.

Evan Kirshenbaum

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Feb 11, 2012, 1:05:35 PM2/11/12
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Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:

> On Feb 11, 4:53 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
>> > Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>
>> >>> Harrison Hill <harrisonhill2...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>> >>>> single character. Others are:
>> >>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>>
>> >>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit?  (Not
>> >>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>>
>> >> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>>
>> >>   format STDOUT =
>> >>   @###  @##.###  @#.#
>> >>   $n,   $price,  $avg
>> >>   .
>>
>> >> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".
>>
>> > Sure.  But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are
>> > for matching against things.
>>
>> Wildcards are for any time one symbol stands for any of a set of
>> symbols.
>>
> So, in a regular expression such as '^A*', the '*' is a wildcard, but
> the "^" is tame, being an anchor, not a wild card.

Nope. The '*' is an operator. (It doesn't stand for anything in and
of itself; it merely says how many times another part ofthe expression
can be used.) The wildcard operator in regular expressions is
typically '.', although things like '\d' or '\w' are often more
restricted wildcards.

> The full expression would be called a 'wildcard expression' because
> it contains one.

If it contained one, it could.

> This seems to be supported by the OED, which, interestingly, gives
> the origin - I thought it was from the joker in cards, but it seems
> that I was wrong, there was an intermediate step between the playing
> card and the meta-character.
>
> "
> wild card, (a) (see sense 15 b above); also fig.; (b) Sport (orig.
> U.S.), a player or team chosen for a tournament at the discretion of
> the organizers after the regular places have been taken up; freq.
> attrib.; (c) Computers, a character that will match any character or
> combination of characters in a file name, etc.;
> "
>
> "
> b.A.II.15.b Of a playing card: having any rank chosen by the player
> holding it. Also fig. See also wild card, sense 16 below.
> "

I don't think that (b) is actually an intermediate step between (a)
and (c). They're just listing various meanings in the order they
found them. (c) comes from the "stands for anything" sense of (a),
while (b) comes from the "used any way you want" sense of (a).

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |can we at least make it round this
Chicago (1964-1982) |time?

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/


David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 11, 2012, 6:46:40 PM2/11/12
to
Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Harrison Hill <harrison...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
>>>>> single character. Others are:
>>>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>>>>
>>>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit? (Not
>>>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>>>
>>> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>>>
>>> format STDOUT =
>>> @### @##.### @#.#
>>> $n, $price, $avg
>>> .
>>>
>>> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".
>>
>> Sure. But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are
>> for matching against things.
>
> Wildcards are for any time one symbol stands for any of a set of
> symbols.

I think of formatting codes as completely different from wildcards.
They're doing the opposite thing, and the systems work very
differently.

Peter Brooks

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Feb 11, 2012, 7:08:58 PM2/11/12
to
On Feb 11, 9:05 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Yes, of course, silly me!
>
> > This seems to be supported by the OED, which, interestingly, gives
> > the origin - I thought it was from the joker in cards, but it seems
> > that I was wrong, there was an intermediate step between the playing
> > card and the meta-character.
>
> > "
> > wild card, (a) (see sense 15 b above); also fig.; (b) Sport (orig.
> > U.S.), a player or team chosen for a tournament at the discretion of
> > the organizers after the regular places have been taken up; freq.
> > attrib.; (c) Computers, a character that will match any character or
> > combination of characters in a file name, etc.;
> > "
>
> > "
> > b.A.II.15.b Of a playing card: having any rank chosen by the player
> > holding it. Also fig. See also wild card, sense 16 below.
> > "
>
> I don't think that (b) is actually an intermediate step between (a)
> and (c).  They're just listing various meanings in the order they
> found them.  (c) comes from the "stands for anything" sense of (a),
> while (b) comes from the "used any way you want" sense of (a).
>
We can't know what went through the mind of whoever it was who first
used the term to apply to a regular expression, I know. My impression
was, from the quotations, that such a person might be more familiar
with the use of the word in sport (which was news to me) than in
actual card games. You're closer to the origin of the usage, though,
so I'll take your suggestion as likely.

It's not, though, entirely clear what the difference between those two
is. The joker stands for any card because it can be used for any card
- you can, of course, use a joker to light a cigar, which would be
'any way you want', but I don't think that's part of the meaning -
it's only usable as any card you want because it stands for any card.

The disputes I recall from games using a joker was whether it took on
a fixed identity once played or whether it could still be interpreted
any way you wanted - so, if you said you played it as a seven of
clubs, but, as the game progressed, it became more convenient if you'd
played it as a jack of diamonds, then you could treat it as such. I
could see, and I'm sure I deployed, arguments both ways.

Peter Brooks

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Feb 11, 2012, 7:15:38 PM2/11/12
to
On Feb 12, 2:46 am, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes:
> > David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
> >> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
> >>>> Harrison Hill <harrisonhill2...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>>>> The questionmark is a wildcard in computer programming and means any
> >>>>> single character. Others are:
> >>>>> "#" (hash) = any single digit.
>
> >>>> Never seen anything use that; what uses that for single digit?  (Not
> >>>> perl regexp, emacs regexp, POSIX regexp, shell glob).
>
> >>> You see them in formatting descriptions like Perl formats:
>
> >>>   format STDOUT =
> >>>   @###  @##.###  @#.#
> >>>   $n,   $price,  $avg
> >>>   .
>
> >>> or Excel formats: "#,##0.00".
>
> >> Sure.  But output formatting is the opposite of wildcards, which are
> >> for matching against things.
>
> > Wildcards are for any time one symbol stands for any of a set of
> > symbols.
>
> I think of formatting codes as completely different from wildcards.
> They're doing the opposite thing, and the systems work very
> differently.
>
How is what they are doing the 'opposite'? The hash in the format
statement means exactly what '[0-9]' would mean in a regular
expression - and '[0-9]' is what I'd call a wild card, though it might
be better termed a feral phrase since it isn't as wild as '.' and
isn't a single glyph, though it could be treated as a symbol or sorts,
and, at a fairly large stretch as a character, at least it seems to
have a character to me, a character more similar to '[a-z]', say than
to '[a-zA-Z]'.

David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 13, 2012, 11:21:44 AM2/13/12
to
Maybe it's just too much exposure to the internals, but I can't get my
head around formatting and parsing being the same thing; they're totally
opposite.

Love the term "feral phrase", by the way. I don't recall hearing it
before; is it yours?

Peter Brooks

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Feb 13, 2012, 11:49:35 AM2/13/12
to
On Feb 13, 7:21 pm, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
They're opposite, yes, but the same function, a formatter parses the
output of the program, a regular expression parses the input.
>
> Love the term "feral phrase", by the way.  I don't recall hearing it
> before; is it yours?
>
Thank you, yes, it's all my own work..

David Dyer-Bennet

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Feb 13, 2012, 12:12:36 PM2/13/12
to
But it *doesn't*; a formatter *formats* the output. It does *not* parse
it. (Something, perhaps the compiler, has to parse the "formatting
string", of course.)

>> Love the term "feral phrase", by the way.  I don't recall hearing it
>> before; is it yours?
>>
> Thank you, yes, it's all my own work..

Very nice. I shall try to remember it, and to remember you as the
author.
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