Re: square meters Re: Olympic question(s)

[Guy Barry]

[a.u.e only]

"Mike L" wrote in message
news:af41789blo626hock...@4ax.com...

[Sandi Toksvig]
> You're in the clear with "dwarf", as she and everybody she works with
> go on about her nonpareilness all the time.

It might be considered offensive to people who are genuinely diagnosed with
dwarfism, though. Cf. "spastic", which is no longer used for people with
cerebral palsy because it started being used as a blanket insult.

(Incidentally, going back to The News Quiz, I'd never previously heard of
Francesca Martinez, the comedian with cerebral palsy who appeared this week.
I thought she was very funny - what did others think who heard the
programme?)

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

[a.u.e only]

"Jack Campin" wrote in message
news:bogus-C81FCE....@four.schnuerpel.eu...

> In the UK (somewhat less class-ridden than the US)

I never thought the day would come when I'd read that.

--
Guy Barry

[Lanarcam]

Le 07/10/2012 09:48, Guy Barry a écrit :
>
>
> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
> news:85g178hj2p9hd9gf4...@4ax.com...
>
>> I suppose if one is trying to get across that one doesn't speak French
>> it might be better to say so in broken rather than fluent French.
>
> Ah! So we really want the French for "me no speak English". How about
> "moi non parler francais"?
>
Nearly so: "Moi pas parler français" but that was a language used
in Africa, a sort of pidgin, by locals who had only notions of
French and it was scorned upon by colonialists and called
"petit nègre". No wonder it is no popular these days.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:39:30 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 09:38:30 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
><gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Oct 3, 9:14锟絘m, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >> If it is, then no. 锟絀t's normal British usage for that sort of
>>> >> institution. 锟絀'd expect a "School of Hotel Management" to cover
>>> >> a lot more on non-restaurant business than a "Catering College"
>>> >> for a start.
>>> > "Catering" is the lowest form of food service -- it's what would-be
>>> > restaurateurs do who can't break into the restaurant biz.
>>>
>>> Somebody has weird prejudices.
>>>
>>> People in catering often need specialized knowledge that a restaurant
>>> chef doesn't have. 锟組y wife did degree-level dietetics and was a
>>> registered dietitian for decades. 锟紺atering managers are often
>>> responsible for everything their clients eat (in nursing homes,
>>> prisons, hospitals, residential schools), so they have to understand
>>> nutrition. 锟絎hereas a restaurant chef is perfectly free to provide
>>> meals that would have you dying of malnutrition within weeks if that
>>> was all you ate; what they're doing is basically showbiz.
>>
>>Do the institutions you list not have their own food service
>>departments?
>>
>>"Catering" is bringing food in from outside, for parties and such.
>
>That is one use of the word.

I've just remembered that in some universities in the UK the food
service department, that is, the department that feeds the staff and
students, is named the "catering" department.

For example, Swansea University has Campus Catering. It operates
facilities such as restaurants and cafes on campus:
http://www.swansea.ac.uk/catering/cafesandrestaurants/

SU CC also offers Buffet Catering. That is, the department provides a
buffet for an event at a time and place specified by the event
organiser.
http://www.swansea.ac.uk/catering/buffetcatering/

We will need the following information:

The name of the person making the booking with contact details
Department
[charging details]
Date of event
Time of delivery
Building and room number for the delivery

Similarly at the University of Chester:
http://www.chester.ac.uk/support-and-services-department/catering

A Google search finds many more:

university catering department site:.uk


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 21:29:20 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:01 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>[...]
>>
>>Incidentally, can Americans download podcasts of Radio 4's _The News
>>Quiz_? The level of anti-Americanism was truly shaming this week. It has
>>always been there but it has got a lot worse since Sandi Toksvig took
>>over.
>>
>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n1vm0
>
>I'd have expected that more from Jeremy Hardy. Missed it, anyway, as
>was having a siesta.
>>
>>(As Toksvig thinks it's OK to portray all Americans as stupid, is it OK
>>to say that she's a humourless cackling bigoted dwarf? Nah. Thought not.
>>Sorry.)

>
>You're in the clear with "dwarf", as she and everybody she works with

>go on about her nonpareilness all the time. The others I'm sure you're
>allowed to say about anybody.
>
When I switched on the telly in my bedroom this morning the first person
I saw was Sandi Toksvig. She was in a current affairs programme
discussing what was in the newspapers. She was sitting on a sofa. Her
head was the same height as the man's next to her. She was boosted by a
not insignificant cushion.

[Cheryl]

On 06/10/2012 8:35 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Oct 6, 6:14 pm, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>> On 06/10/2012 4:03 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 6, 9:21 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 06/10/2012 9:33 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Oct 6, 7:35 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/10/2012 6:11 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 5, 11:30 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2012-10-05 12:38 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 5, 10:51 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2012-10-05 12:39 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>>> <7551a319-f0e8-49ea-9af8-b0af65bcb...@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 4, 11:09=A0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <75efe56b-9e97-41d3-a9d4-7ae1be3aa...@w3g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, "Pete=
>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 3, 10:28=3DA0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully support public schools being able to choose whom they educate =
>>>>>>>>>>>> as =3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you would welcome a vast cadre of illiterates untrained for any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occupation?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What made you think that I would welcome them, from what I wrote?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That you would allow public schools (which are the schools of last
>>>>>>>>>>>> resort) to reject potential students -- who thus could not receive an
>>>>>>>>>>>> education.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am still wondering why you think I would *welcome* this. I added the
>>>>>>>>>>> emphasis because this is what I'm having trouble with. How did you come to
>>>>>>>>>>> infer that I would welcome the results?
>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think he assumes that there would be a 'vast cadre' of students tossed
>>>>>>>>>> out by public schools, and therefore anyone who thinks that a public
>>>>>>>>>> school should have some control over which students they can accept
>>>>>>>>>> agrees that the rejected students will form a very large group and cause
>>>>>>>>>> severe social problems, and also thinks this is a good idea instead of
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps an unavoidable side-effect or perhaps something that might not
>>>>>>>>>> happen at all.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Since the public schools _already_ take anyone who is rejected from a
>>>>>>>>> private school or a charter school, it's _starting_ with a lower
>>>>>>>>> average.
>>
>>>>>>>> Or a higher academic average but also a higher tendency to disrupt
>>>>>>>> things. Or parents who lost their jobs. I admit it's many years since I
>>>>>>>> looked at the reasons for public/private differences in outcomes, and
>>>>>>>> the researchers may, since then, have identified them all, but unless
>>>>>>>> that is the case, I think you're exaggerating somewhat.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone rejected by the public school under Charles's proposal
>>>>>>>>> will have nowhere to go.
>>
>>>>>>>> I expect they'll go to the same sorts of places they do now - sometimes,
>>>>>>>> depending on how things are organized locally, to special schools or
>>>>>>>> classes organized by the school board itself.
>>
>>>>>>> Those _are_ public schools! But Charles wants them to be able to
>>>>>>> _reject_ applicants just as private and charter schools do.
>>
>>>>>> Public schools are perfectly capable of creating places - sometimes
>>>>>> entire schools - for those of their clients they don't want to keep in
>>>>>> the mainstream for one reason or another.
>>
>>>>>>>> Sometimes to various
>>>>>>>> schools for children with various 'special needs'. Sometimes,
>>>>>>>> particularly if they are well into their teens and no intervention has
>>>>>>>> succeeded yet, maybe out in the streets with the hope that they do learn
>>>>>>>> to accept help before they kill themselves or others.
>>
>>>>>>> Special needs children have been mainstreamed in NYC public schools
>>>>>>> for decades, and if there's anything realistic at all about the
>>>>>>> portrayal of the high school experience on *Glee*, in Lima, Ohio, as
>>>>>>> well (standing in for suburban schools everywhere).
>>
>>>>>> I put it in quotes because I wasn't referring to students who needed and
>>>>>> wanted assistance, but to those who are classified as 'special' in order
>>>>>> to get them out of the regular classroom - the thugs, for example, or
>>>>>> the severely mentally ill.
>>
>>>>>> Whether or not those who pose a less extreme challenge to the classroom
>>>>>> should be in or out is a matter of their condition and the
>>>>>> administration's philosophy. I've seen the practice swing from never
>>>>>> mainstreaming anyone to mainstreaming them all, including some who need
>>>>>> massive ammounts of support, and not providing that support.
>>
>>>>> The suggestion was for the children they don't want to _not_ be
>>>>> accommodated, not to set up ever more expensive holding pens for them.
>>
>>>> The end result is the same.
>>
>>>>>> I think I've seen part of one episode of Glee, but I tend not to get my
>>>>>> opinions about high schools (or much else) from fictional TV shows.
>>
>>>>> If you have a more direct way of getting information about high
>>>>> schools, do they mainstream Down Syndrome children? are they fully
>>>>> wheelchair-accessible?
>>
>>>> If it matters to you, look the information up on your local school
>>>> board's website. Or find an employee or student of it to talk with. I
>>>> can't imagine you have a serious interest in my local schools, but if
>>>> you do, the information is out there, I expect.
>>
>>>> But I typed too quickly. Of course, you're familiar with conditions in
>>>> my local schools! How else would you know if my answers to your little
>>>> test were correct?
>>
>>> I'm not talking about "local schools." I'm talking about universal
>>> policies -- presumably affecting all of Canada in your case. Are or
>>> are not "special needs" students "mainstreamed"? Do or do not public
>>> schools have the option of rejecting students whom it's too difficult
>>> or too expensive to accommodate?
>>
>> There aren't any universal education policies in Canada, and if they
>> were, it would hardly be a 'universal' policy from the point of view of
>> the rest of the world. Education is a provincial responsibility here.
>
> "Universal" refers to the universe of discourse. I extrapolate from
> the US, which has a federal Department of Education, which sets
> certain standards. Don't you have Ministries of this and that?
>
Since the topic has expanded to two different countries, I think it
reasonable to assume that the universe of discourse is bigger than either.

And no, there is no federal ministry or department of education in
Canada, although we have a wide range of mninistries concerning
themselves with other areas.

I think the feds may concern themselves somewhat with the education of
children of native people, children of military personnel, and children
whose native language is a minority language, assuming it's either
French or English, and assuming 'numbers warrant'. They subsidize
post-secondary education. They may provide educational materials you can
get on request on topics like 'How your House of Commons works" or "Your
National Parks" (I haven't actually seen such documents, but I've seen
similar ones and it's likely they exist). But they do not run
educational matters from pre-school to the end of high school. The
provinces do. If you want to find out about Canadian education policies,
you look at the provincial government and school board web sites, not to
the feds.

And it's pretty much guaranteed that although there are many
similarities among the provinces' educational systems, there are also
some differences, some of which may affect whatever we were discussing -
permanently expelling disruptive children, wasn't it? Actually, size of
system has a lot to do with that, too, with bigger systems being more
likely to be able to afford places to warehouse such children, thereby
getting them mostly out of the system, or by using such methods as home
tutors - an option normally for sick children, but it could be used for
others who can't function in a normal classroom.

Meanwhile, you will get - in large enough centres - 'alternative'
education centres which might be run by other groups entirely, such as
charities interested in helping adolescents, especially street kids.

--
Cheryl

[Cheryl]

On 06/10/2012 9:09 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:53:20 -0800, ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles
> Bishop) wrote:
>
>> In article <506fef73$0$2362$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam
>> <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 06/10/2012 05:25, Charles Bishop a �crit :
>>>> In article <4SCbs.221226$PU2....@fx23.am4>, "Guy Barry"
>>>> <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [a.u.e only]
>>>>>
>>>>> "Charles Bishop" wrote in message
>>>>> news:ctbishop-051...@global-66-81-245-87.dialup.o1.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Je ne parle Francais pas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly. It's "je ne parle pas Francais" (with a cedilla under the c, of
>>>>> course).
>>>>>
>>>>> I always try to learn the phrase for "I don't speak <language>" even if I
>>>>> don't learn anything else. Although it can help if you get it wrong. I was
>>>>> once bought drinks in a bar by a Dutchman for saying "ik rede geen
>>>>> Nederlands". (What should it have been?)
>>>>
>>>> I was told by someone else, presumably who spoke the language, that pas
>>>> went at the end of the sentence. I assume that French is like other
>>>> languages and the word order, while it contributes to the structure, is
>>>> flexible.
>>>>
>>> To settle things, it is "je ne parle pas fran�ais" which is false;)
>>>
>>> "Pas" can't get at the end of the sentence.
>>>
>>> In the spoken language, we say just "je parle pas fran�ais"
>>> or "je n'parle pas fran�ais".
>>
>> Thanks. Good thing I'm not a spy.

>
> I suppose if one is trying to get across that one doesn't speak French
> it might be better to say so in broken rather than fluent French.
>

Definitely. Otherwise, the other person gets the wrong idea, says
several paragraphs at a normal speaking speed, and totally confuses you.
--
Cheryl

[Cheryl]

On 06/10/2012 9:52 PM, DKleinecke wrote:
> On Oct 4, 5:36 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> On 5/10/12 6:28 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 3, 8:36 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/12 7:05 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>>
>>>>> I wouldn't recognize it as a commonplace. I would expect "feral".
>>>>> That's what we call house cats (a few dogs) who have reverted back to
>>>>> not depending on humans. Locally they cannot sustain themselves
>>>>> because the competition from the genuine wild animals is too
>>>>> formidable - but they can manage a few generations before they die
>>>>> out.
>>
>>>> You should come to Australia. Cats, dogs, camels and quite a number of
>>>> other creatures as well as garden plants find this country ideal for
>>>> living without human assistance. There are of course no predators apart
>>>> from dingos and snakes - cats and camels can avoid those easily enough
>>>> and the dogs can just mate with the dingoes, although not with the snakes.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Bannister
>>
>>> The local equivalent of a dingo is a coyote and they are death on
>>> house cats. Cats that are surviving ferally seem to know how to avoid
>>> them but your standard house cat - if it meets a coyote - is
>>> immediately killed (eaten I don't know about).
>>
>> Your standard house cat is also killed fairly quickly by feral cats that
>> have grown quite a bit larger than their domestic cousins. Cast have
>> been wild for some time now. Feral dogs don't usually last all that long
>> unless they are in a largish pack or manage to mix in with dingoes. The
>> camels and donkey, though, are doing very well. We export camels to Arabia.
>>
>> --
>> Robert Bannister
>
> I think your feral cats might be of more than casual interest.
> Australia has no native cats. But here we have bobcats who are maybe
> twice as big as a house cat (they seem able to inter-breed) and may be
> contributing to the loss of feral cats. If your feral cat population
> is evolving in size that might be interesting to a biologist. Sort of
> the feline version of a dingo (dinga?)
>

Like the east coast coyotes which have apparently been breeding with
wolves on their way across the continent, getting bigger and more
aggressive.

Although I always heard that wolves, contrary to their reputation in
fairy tales, aren't really that aggressive in the wild. It was national
news when a pack of them attacked and killed a young man in some
northern camp a year or two ago.

--
Cheryl

[Yusuf B Gursey]

from what I undrstand, dingoes are midway between dog and wolf. the
scenario that I gather is that they were partially domesticated
wolves, didn't complete the evolution to dogs, accompanied man to
Australia and then went completely wild.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Turkey has a large population of shall I say semi-feral cats, where
the cat is not kept inside the house but is a regular visitor of the
garden or lives outside a shop (sometimes given shelter). my
grandmother and her sisters had lots of cats that were kept in the
house and in addition to that the daily food scrappings were thrown
into the garden to be gathered by the regular feline visitors from the
street. our house was in a old and rural section of Istanbul (it has
since been developed and renovated) with a large garden complete with
its own well. Turkey has *lots* of cats in general. there was even a
scene caught on TV where a stray tabby calmly licked himself in full
view on the red carpet of the old imperial palace in istanbul during a
reception given by the government to a visiting foreign dignitary.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 1:20 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 11:33 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 4, 6:47 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 4, 4:41 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 4, 2:12 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 3, 7:34 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I've seen pictures of that hand writing square Hebrew script which
> > > > > > would, I think, be an anachronism in Belshazzar's day - but there is a
> > > > > > perfectly good older Hebrew script that would be appropriate.
>
> > > > >  "Paleo-Hebrew Script"-
>
> > > > The time of introduction of Square Hebrew is not clear; nor is it
> > > > clear whether it is based on an Aramaic form learned in the east
> > > > during the Exile, or on a local Aramaic script.
>
> > > Since the entire episode is clearly folklore the script actually used
> > > is a silly question. The best answer would seem to be whatever script
> > > the original narrator imagined was being used. So all we have to do is
> > > determine when the story was invented. Haven't we all got something
> > > better to do?
>
> > That was settled more than a century ago. The Aramaic of Esther is
> > contemporary with the events described (so the letters transcribed
> > there are probably genuine archival documents from the Achaemenid
>
> I read that Esther is unhistorical.

Sorry, that should be "Ezra."

Nonetheless, if an Aramaic document had happened to be incorporated
into the text of Esther, do writers of historical novels not include
genuine contemporary documents for artistic verisimilitude?

> > court), and the Aramaic of Daniel is a few centuries later. Thus the
> > writer probably imagined a script a bit more like the DSS than like
> > the Elephantine.-

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 1:38 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> On Oct 6, 8:52 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 4, 9:27 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 4, 11:41 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 4, 10:38 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 4, 10:23 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT),
> > > > > > "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in
> > > > > > <news:7a4c0081-7675-471e...@m5g2000pbv.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > in alt.usage.english,sci.lang:
>
> > > > > > [...]
>
> > > > > > > I still don't see why "he saw the hand writing on the
> > > > > > > wall" is not a reasonable allusion to the Biblical story
> > > > > > > by way of one of its key elements. Of course its
> > > > > > > proverbial use nowadays usually does not include the word
> > > > > > > "hand". But someone who knew the story might well include
> > > > > > > it. And that would be less odd, it seems to me, than
> > > > > > > "handwriting", which has occasioned all this discussion.
>
> > > > > > I first heard it as 'handwriting', and that's still the
> > > > > > version that comes to mind first, with 'writing' a distant
> > > > > > second (and 'hand writing' a non-starter).
>
> > > > > The complete paralllel Bible (OUP) includes two versions produced by
> > > > > ecumenical councils (Protestant Anglican, Roman Catholic, Orthodox,
> > > > > and Jewish) in the US and UK respectively, and two produced primarily
> > > > > by Catholic scholars in the US and UK respectively:
>
> > > > > “So from his presence the hand was sent and this writing was
> > > > > inscribed. And this is the writing that was inscribed [...].” (NRSV)
>
> > > > >  “That is why he sent the hand and why it wrote this inscription. The
> > > > > words inscribed were [...].” (REV)
>
> > > > > “By him were the wrist and the hand sent, and the writing set down.
> > > > > This is the writing that was inscribed [...].” (NAB)
>
> > > > > “That is why he has sent the hand which has written these words. The
> > > > > writing reads [...].” (NJB)
>
> > > > You don't seem to be looking at the same verse as everyone else ("the
> > > > fingers of a man's hand").-- the word for "finger" (es.b`a) is not in
> > > > question.
>
> > > The above, from 5.24-25, immediately precedes “Mene, mene, tekel
> > > [...].”
>
> > > This is the beginning of 5.5:
>
> > > “Immediately the fingers of a human hand appeared and began writing on
> > > the plaster of the wall of the royal palace, next to the
> > > lampstand” (NRSV)
>
> > > “Suddenly there appeared the fingers of a human hand writing on the
> > > plaster of the palace wall opposite the lamp” (REV)
>
> > > “Suddenly opposite the lampstand, the fingers of a human hand
> > > appeared, writing on the plaster wall in the king’s palace” (NAB)
>
> > > “Suddenly, the fingers of a human hand appeared and began to write on
> > > the plaster of the palace wall, directly behind the lamp-stand” (NJB)
>
> > > Christopher Ingham
>
> > According to Kohlenberger the word-for-word is
>
> > "in-her the-moment they-appeared fingers of hand-of human and-ones-
> > writing at-near the-lampstand on the-plaster of wall-of the-palace of
> > the-royalty"
>
> > Why mess with translations when the original is so easy to find?
>
> That looks like a translation.... The NRSV and NAB, btw, are more
> literal translations (of the book as we have it), while the REB and
> NJB are freer.
>
> You can’t be certain that_the_original text survives. There’s no
> agreement as to whether the present-day form of the book was composed
> as a unity or in a complex redactional process, or whether the Aramaic
> parts of the book were originally in Aramaic or Hebrew.  If the
> “original” was a literary composition incorporating and rephrasing an
> earlier document of some sort, it would be interesting to know the
> wording of that document.

How does that account for the unusual Persian(?) word "pas," which
three of your versions apparently render "lampstand," but which Marti
in his grammar guesses is "fingertipes"?

> Apropos of some earlier exchanges about “handwriting” versus
> “writing,” I see in_The new Oxford annotated Bible_, 3ed ed. (2001),
> that the annotation for 5.1-9 has the heading, “The handwriting on the
> wall,” and 5.13-31 has “Deciphering the handwriting.”

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 3, 8:12 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 3:35 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > > On Oct 2, 6:07 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > >> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>
> > >>> On Oct 3, 9:50 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >>>> I forgot to add "Not even Shakespeare. Where do Shakewpeare movies
> > >>>> -- as opposed to modern reimaginings -- end up on each season's
> > >>>> popularity list?"
>
> > >>> At least in my time, a large number of people were made to read
> > >>> Shakespeare in highschool. Perhaps that's no longer true.
>
> > >> Of course it's true.  As a parent of a highschoolfreshman, I can
> > >> attest that one Shakespeare play a year in highschoolis as much a
> > >> constant today as it was thirty years ago when I was in highschool.
> > >> My son's (private) middleschoolread them in seventh and eigth
> > >> grade, too--and took aschooltrip to Ashland for the Oregon
> > >> Shakespeare Festival in seventh grade--but that's less common.
>
> > > So you admit he's receiving an elite education.
>
> > In this contest, it seems to me to be an important caveat, so it would
> > have been dishonest _not_ to tell.
>
> > And there are other types of private schools than "elite", even in the US.
>
> Yeah, this whole new movement of "charterschools," which are for-
> profit operations that take public money that then doesn't go to the
> public schools -- but that have full discretion as to whom they
> enroll, so that all the "problem children" are left to the public
> schools, the ones that require significantly more resources to educate.-

Here's one thing in favor of charter schools.

At the International Linguistic Association monthly meeting yesterday
morning, a talk on the language situation of the Tijuana-San Diego
border-crossers, I learned that bilingual and multicultural education
was outlawed in California by one of those "Proposition" things. As a
result, there are charter schools that offer bilingual and
muticultural education (for those who can afford them, of course).

[Christian Weisgerber]

Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

> Nearly so: "Moi pas parler franï¿œais" but that was a language used

> in Africa, a sort of pidgin, by locals who had only notions of
> French and it was scorned upon by colonialists and called

> "petit nï¿œgre". No wonder it is no popular these days.

It also shows up in _Papillon_, where Charriï¿œre simply labels it
"patois" as far as I recall, so presumably it was a general colonial
thing.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:31:32 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the
"self-catering holiday cottages". I know it means "you prepare your
own meals", but "catering" has a particular connotation. So, my
impression of a self-catering cottage wants to be one in which you go
somewhere else, prepare a meal, and bring it to yourself in your
rented cottage.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Christian Weisgerber]

Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Then it's undoubtedly that I misremember, for I was told the version I
> used by someone on USENET, and they are sure to be correct, nes pas?
^^^^^^^
n'est-ce pas

(Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)

[Guy Barry]

"Christian Weisgerber" wrote in message
news:k4rvtt$14br$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de...

> n'est-ce pas

> (Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)

Well I was taught at school that "n'est-ce pas" was the normal French tag
question. What do people actually say?

--
Guy Barry

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 7, 7:26 am, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> Charles Bishop <ctbis...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Then it's undoubtedly that I misremember, for I was told the version I
> > used by someone on USENET, and they are sure to be correct, nes pas?
>
>                                                               ^^^^^^^
> n'est-ce pas
>
> (Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)

I would, but maybe I didn't get the e-mail. What do French people in
the 21st century do for tag questions?

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Silverton]

I seem to hear "nes' pa" but perhaps Lanarcam can clear this up. I
agree that "n'est-ce pas" would be printed.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Lanarcam]

Le 07/10/2012 16:36, James Silverton a �crit :

> On 10/7/2012 10:23 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Christian Weisgerber" wrote in message
>> news:k4rvtt$14br$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de...
>>
>>> n'est-ce pas
>>
>>> (Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)
>>
>> Well I was taught at school that "n'est-ce pas" was the normal French
>> tag question. What do people actually say?
>>
> I seem to hear "nes' pa" but perhaps Lanarcam can clear this up. I
> agree that "n'est-ce pas" would be printed.
>

Ys, it is true that we say "n�s'pa". However, "n'est-ce pas" belongs
more to a high register. You could say usually something like
"il va pleuvoir, non ?" instead of "il va pleuvoir, n'est ce pas ?"
(It is going to rain, isn't it?)

[Christopher Ingham]

I’m not conversant generally with particular decision-making
processess of modern-day translators. Perhaps some have thought that
Theodotion has it right?

It’s not remarkable to me that there would be Persian loanwords in a
book written (partly) in Aramaic at a time when Aramaic was the
official language of the Parthian empire. Daniel, moreover, shares
with Zoroastrianism an emphasis on eschatological themes.

Christopher Ingham

[Charles Bishop]

In article
<cd84dfee-80de-4b73...@c2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, "Peter
T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Oct 6, 5:18=A0pm, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> [meaning *outside* caterers here]
>>
>> >>> caterers, no matter how good their product, are, and are
>> >>> supposed to be, invisible.
>> >> What gives you the idea?
>> > They are servants. Servants do their job behind the scenes.
>> > If they must appear in public they must be inconspicuous.
>> > They must not make eye contact with the guests.
>>
>> In the UK (somewhat less class-ridden than the US) it doesn't
>> usually work like that. =A0Many outside catering businesses are
>> one- or two-person firms, and they need all the contacts they
>> can get. =A0They'll make a point of getting the guests to try
>> their signature dishes and making sure they take a business
>> card.
>
>At parties to which the public is invited (as opposed to private
>affairs), the caterer will discreetly leave a tray of their business
>cards where the interested can find it.

I think this is more likely rather than asking people if they would like a
business card. However, it depends on the situation. If a guest, having
tried a signature dish, begins a conversation, I don't think it would be
untoward for a caterer to ask if they would like a card.

charles, take a card, any card

[Charles Bishop]

In article
<bd0e941d-d4f3-4f77...@u19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Oct 6, 5:51=A0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>> In article

>> <ce239487-5190-4e98-b40a-67e0f2d14...@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, "Pete=

>r
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >On Oct 5, 10:23=3DA0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>> >> In article

>> >> <5fbf2f64-7aeb-421e-94b2-0fa21eb76...@h4g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, "P=
>ete=3D

>> >r
>>
>> >> T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >> >On Oct 5, 10:51=3D3DA0am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>> >> >> On 2012-10-05 12:39 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>>
>> >> >> > In article

>> >> >> > <7551a319-f0e8-49ea-9af8-b0af65bcb...@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.co=
>m>,

>> >> >> > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>

>> >> >> >> On Oct 4, 11:09=3D3D3DA0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bish=
>op) w=3D
>> >rote:
>> >> >> >>> In article
>> >> >> >>> <75efe56b-9e97-41d3-a9d4-7ae1be3aa...@w3g2000yqe.googlegroups.c=
>om>=3D
>> >, "=3D3D
>> >> >Pete=3D3D3D

>> >> >> >> r
>> >> >> >>> T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >> >> >>>> On Oct 3, 10:28=3D3D3D3DA0pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles =
>Bisho=3D
>> >p) wr=3D3D
>> >> >ote:
>>
>> >> >> >>>>> I fully support public schools being able to choose whom they=
> ed=3D
>> >uca=3D3D
>> >> >te =3D3D3D
>> >> >> >> as =3D3D3D3D
>> >> >> >>>> well.
>>
>> >> >> >>>> So you would welcome a vast cadre of illiterates untrained for=
> an=3D
>> >y
>> >> >> >>>> occupation?
>>
>> >> >> >>> What made you think that I would welcome them, from what I wrot=
>e?
>>
>> >> >> >> That you would allow public schools (which are the schools of la=
>st
>> >> >> >> resort) to reject potential students -- who thus could not recei=
>ve =3D
>> >an
>> >> >> >> education.
>>
>> >> >> > I am still wondering why you think I would *welcome* this. I adde=
>d t=3D
>> >he
>> >> >> > emphasis because this is what I'm having trouble with. How did yo=
>u c=3D
>> >ome=3D3D

>> >> > to
>> >> >> > infer that I would welcome the results?
>>

>> >> >> I think he assumes that there would be a 'vast cadre' of students t=
>oss=3D
>> >ed
>> >> >> out by public schools, and therefore anyone who thinks that a publi=

>c
>> >> >> school should have some control over which students they can accept

>> >> >> agrees that the rejected students will form a very large group and =
>cau=3D
>> >se
>> >> >> severe social problems, and also thinks this is a good idea instead=
> of
>> >> >> perhaps an unavoidable side-effect or perhaps something that might =

>not
>> >> >> happen at all.
>>
>> >> >Since the public schools _already_ take anyone who is rejected from a
>> >> >private school or a charter school, it's _starting_ with a lower

>> >> >average. Anyone rejected by the public school under Charles's proposa=

>l
>> >> >will have nowhere to go.
>>

>> >> And?
>>
>> >> I'm still unsure why you used "welcome".
>>
>> >You offered the proposal with no hint of its undesirablilty. (BTW I
>> >don't see any emphasis anywhere.)
>>
>> So, because I made a neutral statemlent, you decided to infer my
>> intentions or state of mind? Doesn't seem fair to me and a way to derail =
>a
>> discussion.
>
>You made a suggestion -- more than a suggestion, something you "fully
>support" -- I explored it.

Exploring it would have been asking me questions. Instead you imputed to
me a view that you don't know if I have.

--
charles, my second will call upon yours, sirrah

[Charles Bishop]

In article <mn.34077dca9a0c6cdd.127094@snitoo>, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

>Robert Bannister explained on 10/6/2012 :

>> On 6/10/12 11:25 AM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>> I assume that French is like other
>>> languages and the word order, while it contributes to the structure, is
>>> flexible.
>>

>> I wouldn't say the German or English word order was totally flexible. There
>> are certainly some things in French that are fixed.

Where did that "totally" come from? I will be in the camp that "wouldn't
say the German (mein Gott!) or English word order was totally flexible."

>
>On a logarithmic scale, AIUI, Chinese ranks at the top, English in the
>next n-cade (decade for base 10 logs), and most European languages in
>the n-cade below that. Latin would be the baseline. Conversely,
>inflection goes the other way.
>
>I'm not sure what other languages would rank as high or higher than
>English.

I have no idea what this means. I may be in the wrong group.

ctb

[Charles Bishop]

In article <a9vzca...@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>
>> In article <y5jksr...@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>>>> >There are very few Cuban( refugee)s in the US
>>>
>>>About 1.9 million as of 2011. More than one for every six in Cuba.
>>
>> Not quibbling, just asking. Do they count dependents of the original
>> refugees that were born in the US?.
>
>They count anybody here who identifies themselves as of Cuban
>ethnicity on the census forms. That would include immigrants (whether
>refugees or not) and their descendants.

Thanks. Looking, I now understand the parenthetical. I assume the earliest
descendants would have a similar political view as the refugees. I think
this may get diluted as more "Cubans" are born here.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <2racs.242530$PU2.1...@fx23.am4>, "Guy Barry"

<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>"Charles Bishop" wrote in message

>news:ctbishop-061...@global-66-81-255-60.dialup.o1.com...
>
>> In article <k4q45s$fc6$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>, na...@mips.inka.de
>> (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>
>> > Not in this regard. The order of the clitics surrounding the French
>> > verb is rather strictly fixed.

>
>> Then it's undoubtedly that I misremember, for I was told the version I
>> used by someone on USENET, and they are sure to be correct, nes pas?
>

>That should be "n'est-ce pas". (The observant amongst you will have noticed
>that the "pas" doesn't immediately follow the verb here; but the subject
>follows the verb, which is fairly unusual in French.)

That one I did know, but I thought I'd follow form. I didn't know about
the sneaky "pas" though. I take it this breaks the "rule" I was given
before?


Sharl

[Charles Bishop]

In article <add4u1...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:

>On 06/10/2012 9:09 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

[snip]

>>
>> I suppose if one is trying to get across that one doesn't speak French
>> it might be better to say so in broken rather than fluent French.
>>
>
>
>Definitely. Otherwise, the other person gets the wrong idea, says
>several paragraphs at a normal speaking speed, and totally confuses you.

That's exactly what happened when I used a phrase in French. I then had to
use the (broken) me no speakee French phrase.

I can do this in um 3 or 4 languages.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article
<77d72e6f-d667-4e38...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Oct 3, 8:12=A0am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> On Oct 3, 3:35=A0am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>> > > On Oct 2, 6:07 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > >> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> writes:
>>

>> > >>> On Oct 3, 9:50 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote=

>:
>>
>> > >>>> I forgot to add "Not even Shakespeare. Where do Shakewpeare movies
>> > >>>> -- as opposed to modern reimaginings -- end up on each season's
>> > >>>> popularity list?"
>>
>> > >>> At least in my time, a large number of people were made to read
>> > >>> Shakespeare in highschool. Perhaps that's no longer true.
>>

>> > >> Of course it's true. =A0As a parent of a highschoolfreshman, I can

>> > >> attest that one Shakespeare play a year in highschoolis as much a
>> > >> constant today as it was thirty years ago when I was in highschool.
>> > >> My son's (private) middleschoolread them in seventh and eigth
>> > >> grade, too--and took aschooltrip to Ashland for the Oregon
>> > >> Shakespeare Festival in seventh grade--but that's less common.
>>
>> > > So you admit he's receiving an elite education.
>>
>> > In this contest, it seems to me to be an important caveat, so it would
>> > have been dishonest _not_ to tell.
>>

>> > And there are other types of private schools than "elite", even in the =

>US.
>>
>> Yeah, this whole new movement of "charterschools," which are for-
>> profit operations that take public money that then doesn't go to the
>> public schools -- but that have full discretion as to whom they
>> enroll, so that all the "problem children" are left to the public
>> schools, the ones that require significantly more resources to educate.-
>
>Here's one thing in favor of charter schools.
>
>At the International Linguistic Association monthly meeting yesterday
>morning, a talk on the language situation of the Tijuana-San Diego
>border-crossers, I learned that bilingual and multicultural education
>was outlawed in California by one of those "Proposition" things. As a
>result, there are charter schools that offer bilingual and
>muticultural education (for those who can afford them, of course).

My understanding of California's charter schools is that they don't charge
for entry, but they are able to refuse admission on a case by case basis.
This may well be a case of "not being able to afford it" but not in
strictly monetary terms.

--
charles

[Mike L]

Ah, that was it, was it? I was in a hurry, so I just thought "How odd!
He must be little, too." They once pulled back from a College Green
interview with Polly Toynbee and a.n.o., revealing that Ms T was
standing on a photographer's aluminium case.

--
Mike.

[Guy Barry]

"Charles Bishop" wrote in message

news:ctbishop-071...@global-66-81-255-38.dialup.o1.com...

I didn't really understand it either. However I think Snidely is ranking
languages in terms of how rigid their word order is. He's saying that
Chinese has the most rigid word order and Latin has the freest word order,
and also that Latin is the most highly inflected but Chinese is the least
inflected.

I'm not sure how accurate this is. I know that Latin is often cited as an
example of a free word order language but I think it was mainly
subject-object-verb in practice (outside poetry). Neuter nouns don't
distinguish subject and object so I presume word order must have played a
part.

I don't know what the logarithmic stuff was trying to measure.

--
Guy Barry

[Mike L]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:01:30 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr>
wrote:

Bof! Chais pas.

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 12:18 pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> In article

> <cd84dfee-80de-4b73-9a46-ac88a803f...@c2g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, "Peter

It would be proper to compliment the host (thus also complimenting her
taste in choosing the caterer), who would later make a discreet
introduction.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 9:42 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the
> "self-catering holiday cottages".  I know it means "you prepare your
> own meals", but "catering" has a particular connotation.  So, my
> impression of a self-catering cottage wants to be one in which you go
> somewhere else, prepare a meal, and bring it to yourself in your
> rented cottage.

Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 12:26 pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> In article <a9vzcaux....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
>
>
>
>
>
> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>
> >> In article <y5jksrnn....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum

> >> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>> >There are very few Cuban( refugee)s in the US
>
> >>>About 1.9 million as of 2011.  More than one for every six in Cuba.
>
> >> Not quibbling, just asking. Do they count dependents of the original
> >> refugees that were  born in the US?.
>
> >They count anybody here who identifies themselves as of Cuban
> >ethnicity on the census forms.  That would include immigrants (whether
> >refugees or not) and their descendants.
>
> Thanks. Looking, I now understand the parenthetical. I assume the earliest
> descendants would have a similar political view as the refugees. I think
> this may get diluted as more "Cubans" are born here.

The exodus began in 1959. Not many of the original refugees are still
around. How many non-refugee immigrants from Cuba have there been?

[Guy Barry]

"Charles Bishop" wrote in message

news:ctbishop-071...@global-66-81-255-38.dialup.o1.com...

In questions where the subject is a pronoun, it can follow the verb. (In
the above example "ce" is the subject of "est".) In that case it's attached
to the verb by a hyphen. I don't know how common this sort of inversion is
in French these days; it was taught to me in school but my understanding is
that it's not used much now in idiomatic French.

The rule with normal word order is that "pas" comes straight after the verb,
but in inverted constructions like the above you can't separate the verb
from the subject, so it comes after the subject instead. It's a bit like
saying "is it not?"

--
Guy Barry

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 12:20 pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> In article

> <bd0e941d-d4f3-4f77-9412-92908a072...@u19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,

You _asserted_ it! How is "I fully support" not a statement that you
fully support it?

[Lanarcam]

Le 07/10/2012 18:52, Mike L a �crit :

p'tet', p'tet'pas.

You master the spoken language, how come?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

The primary and most common meaning of "cottage", noun, in BrE is:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cottage?q=cottage

1 a small house, typically one in the country:
"a holiday cottage
* a simple house forming part of a farm, used by a worker:
"farm cottages"

The second sense is used only in a specific context:

2 British informal (in the context of casual homosexual encounters)
a public toilet.

verb
[no object] (usually as noun cottaging) British informal

perform homosexual acts in a public toilet:
"I was busted for cottaging"

I have never met "cottage" used to mean a toilet in general BrE.

As the OED says:

A public lavatory or urinal. slang (now only in homosexual usage).


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[tony cooper]

Clearly, hunh? I invite you to Google "self-catering holiday cottage"
and report back with how many outhouses you find available for let.

I'd furnish a link or a dozen to pages that advertise these cottages,
but you are not one to be swayed by facts.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:0e43b99d-a9d0-4083...@i14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

> Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
> clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).

"Cottage" does NOT have that sense in Britain. "In England the legal
definition of a cottage is a small house or habitation without land"
(Wikipedia). Typically it simply means a small house in the country. The
address at which I was brought up in rural England was "Moonshill Cottages".

There is no evidence whatsoever that "cottage" is currently used in the way
you suggest. I can only assume you're referring to the gay practice of
"cottaging". This apparently came about because during the Victorian era
"cottage" was used to mean "public toilet". It is not so used now.

Please refrain from making such ridiculous statements without corroboration.

--
Guy Barry

[tony cooper]

What are you calling the Cubans who arrive almost daily on the coasts
of Florida? The ones that the "wet feet, dry feet" rules apply to?

[Vinny Burgoo]

[FUs to AUE only]

In alt.usage.english, tony cooper wrote:

>On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:39:40 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>In alt.usage.english, tony cooper wrote:
>>>On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:01 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>

>>>>Who chooses where the debates are held? OK, Denver is an important city,
>>>>but why are the VP candidates debating in Danville, Kentucky, population
>>>>16k?
>>>
>>>The physical location of the debate is of very little importance.
>>
>>Are you sure? Aren't they meant to be representative or symbolic in some
>>way? If not, why not just hold all four in the same studio in some big
>>city somewhere?
>
>Didn't I provide the symbolic connection of Centre College? Why do
>you think I nattered on about Stevenson and Breckinridge?

I wasn't sure. You had already said that it didn't really matter where
the debates were held.

>The Vice Presidential debate was held at the college from whence not
>one, but two, former US Vice Presidents attended.
>
>The physical location is unimportant in that a debate can be held in
>any location that has the physical facilities required, so they *can*
>hold one where there is a symbolic connection.

Ah!

>>A guess: Danville, country folk;
>
>It has nothing do with Danville other than that Danville is the
>location of Centre College.

Sez you. Looks like data-mining to me. If vice-presidential precedence
were important, why not Harvard (Adams, Gerry, Gore) or Yale (Calhoun,
Ford, Bush Sr, Cheney)?

--
VB

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, Garrett Wollman wrote:

>Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>Incidentally, can Americans download podcasts of Radio 4's _The News
>>Quiz_? The level of anti-Americanism was truly shaming this week.
>

>Really? Not to this American's ear. I'll listen to the "News Quiz
>Extra" on Monday night and see whether my opinion changes.
>
>I would normally expect to hear anti-American sentiment from Jeremy
>Hardy.

His bigotry can be quite funny. (Skinning Mexicans almost brought a
chuckle.) And he has toned down the babyish voice, so that he now sounds
almost as nearly grown-up as he did in the '80s.

>(And what's with whoever's picking the panels this series?
>Hardy has been on every episode so far, and Andy Hamilton has been on
>all but one. Surely there are others available, even if you restrict
>the pool to left-wing comics!)

They have recently experimented with Bob Mills, who broke his teeth
(shome mishtake shurely) sneering at TV clips, much as the insufferable
and inexplicably ubiquitous Charlie Brooker is doing today.

>>(As Toksvig thinks it's OK to portray all Americans as stupid, is it OK
>>to say that she's a humourless cackling bigoted dwarf? Nah. Thought not.
>>Sorry.)
>

>No idea where that comes from. (Well, other than the "dwarf" bit --
>but is it really dwarfism or is she simply short?)

Do you find her funny? Her ad libs, that is. Most of what she says is
scripted.

--
VB

[Vinny Burgoo]

[FUs to AUE only]

In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>When I switched on the telly in my bedroom this morning the first person
>I saw was Sandi Toksvig. She was in a current affairs programme
>discussing what was in the newspapers. She was sitting on a sofa. Her
>head was the same height as the man's next to her. She was boosted by a
>not insignificant cushion.

And was she funny?

--
VB

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 11:23 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>

Oops -- the lamp(stand) is the navrashta.

> I’m not conversant generally with particular decision-making
> processess of modern-day translators. Perhaps some have thought that
> Theodotion has it right?
>
> It’s not remarkable to me that there would be Persian loanwords in a
> book written (partly) in Aramaic at a time when Aramaic was the
> official language of the Parthian empire. Daniel, moreover, shares
> with Zoroastrianism an emphasis on eschatological themes.

Duh. The question is the _meaning_ of "pas," not its source. Astragals
(in Greek) are bones, more specifically knucklebones used as dice (the
English sense).

NRSV completes the verse with "The king was watching the hand as it
wrote."

REB "and the king saw the palm of the hand as it wrote."

NAB "When the king saw the wrist and hand that wrote."

NJB "and the king could see the hand as it wrote."

Two of them ignore the word entirely, two of them guess at meanings
related to hands.

The most recent commentary I have on Daniel is Lacoque's, and he
doesn't mention _pas_ at all. His translation is "and the king saw a
detached hand writing."

I just discovered that Marti's "Handkommentar" (1901) on Daniel is on
the shelf alongside Lacoque's, presumably superseding his 1896
grammar:

"_pas_ wird, da die alten Uebersetzungen nicht weit helfen, mit Bevan
nach dem rabbin. Hebr. _pas_, auch femin. _pissa_, und dem Syr.
_passe:tha:_ = 'die Flaeche, das Hohle' von Hand oder Fuss, wie hebr.
_kaf_, zu fassen sein; der Koenig sieht sich gegenueber die hohle
Geisterhand auf die Wand (_ktal_ s. 4:27) schreiben."

(Since the ancient versions aren't too helpful, we follow Bevan in
connecting Rabbinic Hebrew and Syriac ... meaning 'hollow" of the hand
or foot, like Hebrew _kaf; the king sees opposite the hollow ghostly
hand writing on the wall.)

[Mark Brader]

R.H. Draney:
>>> And "turn" on a light without turning anything as we did when there
>>> was a key that fed more oil to the mantle....

Mark Brader:
>> I still maintain that this is not an example.

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Yes, but you're still wrong. :-)

>> If you put black paint on a wall, you have turned the wall black.
>> Turning the light on can be seen as exactly the same sense and does
>> not need to refer to the motion of any sort of control.

> If that were the case, I'd expect to see earlier hits for people
> "turning on" candles and fires and the like, but I don't.

Because igniting a flame is a distinct action from the mere operation
of a control.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Astronauts practice landing on laptops"
m...@vex.net | --Ft. Myers, FL, News-Press, March 13, 1994

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Christian Weisgerber]

James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:

> >> n'est-ce pas
> >
> >> (Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)
> >
> > Well I was taught at school that "n'est-ce pas" was the normal French
> > tag question. What do people actually say?
> >
> I seem to hear "nes' pa" but perhaps Lanarcam can clear this up. I
> agree that "n'est-ce pas" would be printed.

You're phrasing this as if there was a contradiction. "N'est-ce pas"
is pronounced /nEspA/ and I don't see anything irregular there.

I think tag questions are used far less in French than in English,
so the answer to "what do people actually say?" is "mostly, they
don't". When they do, a simple "non?" seems to be the most common.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <E8UWWxjj...@shropshire.plus.com>,

Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>They have recently experimented with Bob Mills, who broke his teeth
>(shome mishtake shurely) sneering at TV clips, much as the insufferable
>and inexplicably ubiquitous Charlie Brooker is doing today.

I briefly followed Charlton Brooker on Twitter. Decided the better of
it.

>
>>>(As Toksvig thinks it's OK to portray all Americans as stupid, is it OK
>>>to say that she's a humourless cackling bigoted dwarf? Nah. Thought not.
>>>Sorry.)
>>
>>No idea where that comes from. (Well, other than the "dwarf" bit --
>>but is it really dwarfism or is she simply short?)
>
>Do you find her funny? Her ad libs, that is. Most of what she says is
>scripted.

I find her amusing, not necessarily "funny" as I would understand the
word. I liked her better as a panelist (and with somewhat tighter
editing) than has a host; I think the show took a bit of a turn
towards more comic effect and less commentary when she replaced Simon
Hoggart.

I've been waiting for them to do the all-gay show. Surely it's just a
matter of time, given the current pool of panelists.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <VIacs.212520$jS5.1...@fx27.am4>,
Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>(Incidentally, going back to The News Quiz, I'd never previously heard of
>Francesca Martinez, the comedian with cerebral palsy who appeared this week.
>I thought she was very funny - what did others think who heard the
>programme?)

I found her extremely difficult to understand. I don't know if it
would have been better with the full fidelity of FM rather than the
heavily compressed download.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

A fair number. Famous ones include Xavier Cugat (I guess technically
he was born in Spain, but he grew up in Cuba) who immigrated in 1915
and Desi Arnaz (1933). Wikipedia says that there were about 125,000
Cuban Americans in 1958.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Just sit right back
SF Bay Area (1982-) | and you'll hear a tale,
Chicago (1964-1982) | a tale of the Stanford red
|That started when a little boy
evan.kir...@gmail.com | named Leland did drop dead

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:

> R.H. Draney:
>>>> And "turn" on a light without turning anything as we did when there
>>>> was a key that fed more oil to the mantle....
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> I still maintain that this is not an example.
>
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> Yes, but you're still wrong. :-)
>
>>> If you put black paint on a wall, you have turned the wall black.
>>> Turning the light on can be seen as exactly the same sense and does
>>> not need to refer to the motion of any sort of control.
>
>> If that were the case, I'd expect to see earlier hits for people
>> "turning on" candles and fires and the like, but I don't.
>
> Because igniting a flame is a distinct action from the mere operation
> of a control.

I've lost the thread of the argument. I thought that you were arguing
that the "turn" in "turn on" was "change the state" as opposed to
"manipulate a control, originally one involving rotation". Lighting a
candle or a fire is as much changing the state as causing a gas or oil
lamp to burn, but people didn't seem to start using the phrase until
they were talking about the latter.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |All tax revenue is the result of
SF Bay Area (1982-) |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Chicago (1964-1982) |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
evan.kir...@gmail.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
|you'll be jailed. If you try to
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |escape from jail, you'll be shot.
| P.J. O'Rourke

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <k4rvtt$14br$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Then it's undoubtedly that I misremember, for I was told the version I
>> used by someone on USENET, and they are sure to be correct, nes pas?
> ^^^^^^^

>n'est-ce pas
>
>(Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)

My grandmother certainly does -- although I rarely hear her speaking
French, so usually it's just a strongly-accented "No?". (And, of
course, it was in our French textbooks.) But it would not be
surprising if Franco-American usage preserved what has gone out of
fashion in francophone countries.

[Mark Brader]

Jack Campin:
> In the UK... it doesn't usually work like that. Many outside

> catering businesses are one- or two-person firms, and they need

> all the contacts they can get. They'll make a point of getting

> the guests to try their signature dishes and making sure they take
> a business card.

I am suddenly reminded of a scene at a wedding reception in England
in the movie "Love Actually". A young man (Kris Marshall) emerges
from the kitchen with a tray and approaches successive guests
offering a "Delicious delicacy?" and then a "Taste explosion?"
They decline. He sees a pretty woman (Julia Davis) standing alone
and tries for a longer conversation:

"Food?"
"No thanks."
"Yeah, a bit dodgy, isn't it? Looks like a dead baby's
finger. Oooh." (He tries one.) "Oh, yeah, tastes like
it, too. I'm Colin, by the way."
"I'm Nancy."
"Wicked. What do you do, Nancy?"
"I'm a cook."
"Ever do weddings?"
"I do."
"They should've asked you to do this one."
"They did."
"God, I wish you hadn't have [sic] turned it down."
"I didn't."

(He then decides that English girls are too stuck up for him and
he will go to America, specifically Milwaukee, where, thanks to his
British accent, he will get a girlfriend instantly. He gets five:
Ivana Milicevic, January Jones, Elisha Cuthbert, Shannon Elizabeth,
and Denise Richards.)
--
Mark Brader | "Strong typing isn't for weak minds; the argument
Toronto | 'strong typing is for weak minds' is for weak minds."
m...@vex.net | -- Guy Harris

[Christian Weisgerber]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I wouldn't say the German or English word order was totally flexible. There
> > are certainly some things in French that are fixed.

>
> On a logarithmic scale, AIUI, Chinese ranks at the top, English in the
> next n-cade (decade for base 10 logs), and most European languages in
> the n-cade below that. Latin would be the baseline. Conversely,
> inflection goes the other way.

What are your metrics that give you actual numbers you could plot
on a logarithmic scale?

[Dr Nick]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

I once lived in a house with "cottage" in the address. I think I'd
have noticed if it was an outhouse or privy (in fact, the toilet was a
modern extension as - when built - it didn't have such a thing).

There is a specialist verb "to cottage" but that seems to be - in
general use - utterly unrelated to the noun. There's even the
(entertaining, because of the usual use of the verb) term
"telecottaging". Whatever that means, it's got nothing to do with an
outhouse or privy.

It makes a cottage pie or cottage loaf sound pretty undesirable as well.

[Mark Brader]

Evan Kirshenbaum:

> I've lost the thread of the argument. I thought that you were arguing
> that the "turn" in "turn on" was "change the state" as opposed to
> "manipulate a control, originally one involving rotation".

I am.

> Lighting a candle or a fire is as much changing the state as causing

> a gas or oil lamp to burn...

But it's more work. I'm arguing that if the expression didn't arise
with candles, it's people didn't think of activating the light as
"simply changing the state" until they could do it as simply as by
operating a control. Whether the control involved rotation or not
was irrelevant.
--
Mark Brader | "What ever happened to the concept of 'less is more'?"
Toronto | "Ah, but if less is more, then just think how much
m...@vex.net | more more would be." -- Frasier (David Lloyd)

[Dr Nick]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

Damn. I behaved improperly at my mother-in-law's 80th birthday. I
complimented the caterer (when I went back for seconds it was). Will
she ever forgive me?

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:34:47 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

Harvard is located in Massachusetts and Romney was Governor of
Massachusetts. That could provide the perception of what we call the
"home field advantage" even though Obama has a degree from Harvard
Law. Yale, in Connecticut, would not give rise to the same
perception.

Why Centre over Yale? Dunno, but probably something about spreading
the largesse around. A little boost to the economy of Kentucky, a
little recognition for a college that doesn't get much recognition, or
more availability of parking for all those mobile TV trucks. Who
knows.

The "country folk" aspect has - as far as I can tell - would have
absolutely no bearing on the choice. The audience didn't participate
in the debate or affect the debate in any way. Even rural
Kentuckians would wear shoes to a debate, so they wouldn't embarrass
the hosts. Connecticut audience members would wear loafers and no
socks, but that probably wasn't a factor.

I doubt that the location of the debate influenced any voters. I
can't see how it would.

[Mike L]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:27:50 -0400, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

>
>I doubt that the location of the debate influenced any voters. I
>can't see how it would.

I can't, either. But it's the kind of thing we're led to believe US
political fixers take account of.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:04:38 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr>
wrote:

>Le 07/10/2012 18:52, Mike L a écrit :
>> On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:01:30 +0200, Lanarcam <lana...@yahoo.fr>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> Le 07/10/2012 16:36, James Silverton a écrit :
>>>> On 10/7/2012 10:23 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Christian Weisgerber" wrote in message
>>>>> news:k4rvtt$14br$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de...
>>>>>
>>>>>> n'est-ce pas
>>>>>
>>>>>> (Does anybody this side of the 19th century actually say that?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I was taught at school that "n'est-ce pas" was the normal French
>>>>> tag question. What do people actually say?
>>>>>
>>>> I seem to hear "nes' pa" but perhaps Lanarcam can clear this up. I
>>>> agree that "n'est-ce pas" would be printed.
>>>>

>>> Ys, it is true that we say "nès'pa". However, "n'est-ce pas" belongs

>>> more to a high register. You could say usually something like
>>> "il va pleuvoir, non ?" instead of "il va pleuvoir, n'est ce pas ?"
>>> (It is going to rain, isn't it?)
>>
>> Bof! Chais pas.
>>
>p'tet', p'tet'pas.
>
>You master the spoken language, how come?

"A" Level GCE meant something in my day, and then I spent time with
French people.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

Americans often seem more formal than we are. You can forget about
that invitation to the White House garden party, Nick.

--
More.

[Cheryl]

On 07/10/2012 2:55 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <a9vzca...@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ctbi...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>>
>>> In article <y5jksr...@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum

>>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> There are very few Cuban( refugee)s in the US
>>>>
>>>> About 1.9 million as of 2011. More than one for every six in Cuba.
>>>
>>> Not quibbling, just asking. Do they count dependents of the original
>>> refugees that were born in the US?.
>>
>> They count anybody here who identifies themselves as of Cuban
>> ethnicity on the census forms. That would include immigrants (whether
>> refugees or not) and their descendants.
>
> Thanks. Looking, I now understand the parenthetical. I assume the earliest
> descendants would have a similar political view as the refugees. I think
> this may get diluted as more "Cubans" are born here.
>

I think it usually takes about three generations. The original refugee
may either completely reject the homeland or remain passionately active
in politics 'back home'; children, especially those born and raised in
the new country, may have some interest in 'back home'; grandchildren
might well not even speak the language intelligibly, and will be MUCH
less involved in politics in the lands of their ancestors than were
Grandmother and Grandfather.

It seems odd, though, to include the descendants of the original
refugees in a count of refugees, when each generation is further
integrated and further removed from the refugee experience.

--
Cheryl

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 3:26 pm, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:

> she ever forgive me?-

It was highly inappropriate for a guest to enter the caterer's
workspace. (Or does "went back" not mean "went in the back to the
kitchen"? Do you mean you went back to the buffet table? How likely is
it that the caterer themself was staffing the buffet table, as opposed
to a server [waiter/waitress]?)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 3:24 pm, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:

So what is the origin of the verb?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 2:37 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
> > On Oct 7, 12:26 pm, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> >> In article <a9vzcaux....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> >> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
> >> >> In article <y5jksrnn....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> >> >> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>> >There are very few Cuban( refugee)s in the US
>
> >> >>>About 1.9 million as of 2011.  More than one for every six in Cuba.
>
> >> >> Not quibbling, just asking. Do they count dependents of the original
> >> >> refugees that were  born in the US?.
>
> >> >They count anybody here who identifies themselves as of Cuban
> >> >ethnicity on the census forms.  That would include immigrants (whether
> >> >refugees or not) and their descendants.
>
> >> Thanks. Looking, I now understand the parenthetical. I assume the earliest
> >> descendants would have a similar political view as the refugees. I think
> >> this may get diluted as more "Cubans" are born here.
>
> > The exodus began in 1959. Not many of the original refugees are still
> > around. How many non-refugee immigrants from Cuba have there been?
>
> A fair number.  Famous ones include Xavier Cugat (I guess technically
> he was born in Spain, but he grew up in Cuba) who immigrated in 1915
> and Desi Arnaz (1933).  Wikipedia says that there were about 125,000
> Cuban Americans in 1958.

So you've heard of two entertainers with Cuban backgrounds. And that
generation is immensely relevant to the question, is it?

Are you now going to attempt to claim that the above is a contribution
to the discourse, as opposed to what it obviously is, namely, a
desperate grasping at any straw that would appear to permit you to
denigrate me?

(The absence of the entire context above my statement is immensely
telling.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 4:44 pm, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
> On 07/10/2012 2:55 PM, Charles Bishop wrote:
>
>
>

> > In article <a9vzcaux....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum
> > <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) writes:
>
> >>> In article <y5jksrnn....@gmail.com>, Evan Kirshenbaum

> >>> <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> There are very few Cuban( refugee)s in the US
>
> >>>> About 1.9 million as of 2011.  More than one for every six in Cuba.
>
> >>> Not quibbling, just asking. Do they count dependents of the original
> >>> refugees that were  born in the US?.
>
> >> They count anybody here who identifies themselves as of Cuban
> >> ethnicity on the census forms.  That would include immigrants (whether
> >> refugees or not) and their descendants.
>
> > Thanks. Looking, I now understand the parenthetical. I assume the earliest
> > descendants would have a similar political view as the refugees. I think
> > this may get diluted as more "Cubans" are born here.
>
> I think it usually takes about three generations. The original refugee
> may either completely reject the homeland or remain passionately active
> in politics 'back home'; children, especially those born and raised in
> the new country, may have some interest in 'back home'; grandchildren
> might well not even speak the language intelligibly, and will be MUCH
> less involved in politics in the lands of their ancestors than were
> Grandmother and Grandfather.
>
> It seems odd, though, to include the descendants of the original
> refugees in a count of refugees, when each generation is further
> integrated and further removed from the refugee experience.

Unfortunately, the republican party of Florida (and of the country
generally), which must still be caught up in McCarthyite hysteria, has
made it its business to inflame anti-Castro sentiment unto the third
generation, and even though Castro (in his dotage) has nothing to do
with running Cuba any more, and even though capitalism is breaking out
all over, and even though the whole rest of the world has normalized
relations.

We have cordial relations with Vietnam, fer cryin' out loud, and you
don't see even wackos like the Orange County representatives trying to
foment hatred of Vietnam among _those_ refugees and their descendants.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 3:24 pm, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>
> > I've lost the thread of the argument.  I thought that you were arguing
> > that the "turn" in "turn on" was "change the state" as opposed to
> > "manipulate a control, originally one involving rotation".
>
> I am.
>
> > Lighting a candle or a fire is as much changing the state as causing
> > a gas or oil lamp to burn...
>
> But it's more work.  I'm arguing that if the expression didn't arise
> with candles, it's people didn't think of activating the light as
> "simply changing the state" until they could do it as simply as by
> operating a control.  Whether the control involved rotation or not
> was irrelevant.

When did the lexical item "turn on" originate in the first place, and
in what context?

(Note that when it's a dubious statement from someone other than me,
Evan does not go rushing to his search engine.)

[the Omrud]

On 07/10/2012 20:20, Mark Brader wrote:
> Jack Campin:
>> In the UK... it doesn't usually work like that. Many outside
>> catering businesses are one- or two-person firms, and they need
>> all the contacts they can get. They'll make a point of getting
>> the guests to try their signature dishes and making sure they take
>> a business card.
>
> I am suddenly reminded of a scene at a wedding reception in England
> in the movie "Love Actually". A young man (Kris Marshall) emerges
> from the kitchen

Daughter and I stood behind him in the queue for the till at Woolworths
in Windsor a few years ago. And on another occasion he crossed the road
in front of me while I was driving through Windsor. I surmise he lives
in Windsor.

--
David

[tony cooper]

It is the Cuban and Cuban-American population of Florida that is
virulently anti-Castro and completely against any normalization of
US/Cuba relations. These people will vote only for candidates that
support this position.

The Republican party has embraced this position only because it brings
in a substantial vote for Republican candidates. It is not the party
that is driving the anti-Castro, anti-normalization agenda, but the
Cuban and Cuban-American sector.

Gov. Scott (R), and the Republican party in Florida, desperately want
to add any avenue of new trade or revenue. Normalization of relations
with Cuba would bring in new trade and additional revenue. Too many
Republican office holders and candidates need the Cuban and
Cuban-American votes, though, so the official position remains against
normalization.

You can blame a lot of things on the Florida Republican party, but
this is not one of them. They are followers, not leaders, on this
issue. This is a case of either a) pandering to the electorate, or,
b) representing the wishes of the electorate, depending on your bias.

>
>We have cordial relations with Vietnam, fer cryin' out loud, and you
>don't see even wackos like the Orange County representatives trying to
>foment hatred of Vietnam among _those_ refugees and their descendants.

[Paul Wolff]

In message <ade7sg...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
writes

It certainly does. I fit in at the 'children' stage, and would be
astonished to be numbered as a refugee of any foreign category in my
native country.
--
Paul (or is that 'Saul'?)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

To me "went back for seconds" means simply "returned for another helping
of food". If the food was being served at a buffet table then he
returned to the buffet table. We haven't been told how many guests there
were at the party, but assuming they could be counted in tens rather
than hundreds there would have been a few or several servers in addition
to the chief caterer. In such circumstances it would often be fairly
easy to notice by their behaviour towards one another who was in charge.

Of course if Nick had been involved in arranging the birthday
celebrations he might have met the caterer in advance. There are other
possibilities.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:58:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Oct 7, 3:24嚙緘m, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>>

>> > On Oct 7, 9:42嚙窮m, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the

>> >> "self-catering holiday cottages". 嚙瘢 know it means "you prepare your
>> >> own meals", but "catering" has a particular connotation. 嚙磅o, my

>> >> impression of a self-catering cottage wants to be one in which you
>> >> go somewhere else, prepare a meal, and bring it to yourself in your
>> >> rented cottage.
>>
>> > Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
>> > clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).
>>

>> I once lived in a house with "cottage" in the address. 嚙瘢 think I'd

>> have noticed if it was an outhouse or privy (in fact, the toilet was a
>> modern extension as - when built - it didn't have such a thing).
>>
>> There is a specialist verb "to cottage" but that seems to be - in

>> general use - utterly unrelated to the noun. 嚙確here's even the

>> (entertaining, because of the usual use of the verb) term

>> "telecottaging". 嚙磕hatever that means, it's got nothing to do with an

>> outhouse or privy.
>>
>> It makes a cottage pie or cottage loaf sound pretty undesirable as well.
>
>So what is the origin of the verb?

The verb comes from an old slang sense of "cottage" to mean "A public
lavatory or urinal".

Your words upthread "the British sense of "cottage" (i.e.,
outhouse/privy)" imply that that is the only, or primary, sense of the
word in BrE - which it definitely isn't.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:49:42 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:38:28 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>
>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 21:29:20 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:01 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>

>>>wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>>Incidentally, can Americans download podcasts of Radio 4's _The News
>>>>Quiz_? The level of anti-Americanism was truly shaming this week. It has
>>>>always been there but it has got a lot worse since Sandi Toksvig took
>>>>over.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n1vm0
>>>
>>>I'd have expected that more from Jeremy Hardy. Missed it, anyway, as
>>>was having a siesta.

>>>>
>>>>(As Toksvig thinks it's OK to portray all Americans as stupid, is it OK
>>>>to say that she's a humourless cackling bigoted dwarf? Nah. Thought not.
>>>>Sorry.)
>>>

>>>You're in the clear with "dwarf", as she and everybody she works with
>>>go on about her nonpareilness all the time. The others I'm sure you're
>>>allowed to say about anybody.
>>>
>>When I switched on the telly in my bedroom this morning the first person
>>I saw was Sandi Toksvig. She was in a current affairs programme
>>discussing what was in the newspapers. She was sitting on a sofa. Her
>>head was the same height as the man's next to her. She was boosted by a
>>not insignificant cushion.
>
>Ah, that was it, was it? I was in a hurry, so I just thought "How odd!
>He must be little, too." They once pulled back from a College Green
>interview with Polly Toynbee and a.n.o., revealing that Ms T was
>standing on a photographer's aluminium case.

I've now caught up with some TV from last night. Here is a sofa shot. As
you can see there are occasions when any idea of using cushions to
equalise head heights is a complete non-starter:
http://www.peterduncanson.net/temp/2012-10-06%20The%20Xtra%20Factor%20sofa.jpg

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:35:52 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>[FUs to AUE only]

>
>In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
>>When I switched on the telly in my bedroom this morning the first person
>>I saw was Sandi Toksvig. She was in a current affairs programme
>>discussing what was in the newspapers. She was sitting on a sofa. Her
>>head was the same height as the man's next to her. She was boosted by a
>>not insignificant cushion.
>

>And was she funny?

Not particularly. The news was dominated by the search for small girl
missing in Wales so there were no openings for jokes.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I agree with you. but there was the Mariel flotilla incident in 1980
in which about 125,000 refugees came, 2% of which according to
Wikipedia were denied citizinship on the grounds they were eviolent
criminals. I think there are some later generation Cuban-Americans who
do seek or desire normalization of relations.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

You asked how many non-refugee immigrants from Cuba there have been.
I answered with a sourced number (an estimated 125,000 here before the
date you gave) and pointed out two that even you may have heard of,
from two different pre-1959 waves of Cuban immigration. (Arnaz's
family fled the country when Batista took over.) Cugat composed the
"Miami Beach Rumba", celebrating the vibrant Cuban community in Miami
in the 1940s.

It looks like a contribution to me. Why do you ask questions if
you're going to assume that any answer is necessarily an attempt to
denigrate you?

If what you meant was "How many non-refugee immigrants from Cuba have
there been since 1959?" you should probably have made that a bit more
explicit. Especially since I was the one who wrote "whether refugees
or not" and I'm fairly certain that the "or nots" I was thinking of
were those who came before 1959.

> (The absence of the entire context above my statement is immensely
> telling.)

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Of course, over the first 10^-10
SF Bay Area (1982-) |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Chicago (1964-1982) |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
evan.kir...@gmail.com |detail....
| Philip Morrison
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Jack Campin]

>> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the
>> "self-catering holiday cottages".

> Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
> clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).

Look at the title of this webpage:

http://www.yorkshireholidaycottages.co.uk/

(We book one through them every year).

Not many British people outside the gay subculture ever encounter
the "toilet" sense for "cottage" - I think it's American in origin?

I have once seen a house in a Scottish village with an entirely
un-ironic sign beside the door, wreathed in ivy and roses, naming
it as "Gay Cottage". I wonder if the owners ever decoded the
occasional giggles from passers by.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

Right. It must have been some other Evan Kirshenbaum who, a few
articles directly upthread, rushed to his search engine and wrote

If that were the case, I'd expect to see earlier hits for people
"turning on" candles and fires and the like, but I don't. Early
hits talk specifically about the thing that burns rather than the
light, e.g.,

Mr. Breme appeared to have something of consequence to display
to Mr. Culver, as he turned on the gas in his back-room to an
unusual brightness when his friend entered.

Harriet Martineau, _Illustrations of
Political Economy_, 1833

Lights and lamps weren't turned on until a fair bit later in the
century. And when they were, I find things like

It seems that a self-lighting burner had been adjusted near the
platform, at which an experience man from the gas works was
stationed with the gas cock in his hand, ready at a moment's
notice to turn on the light.

Thomas Robinson Hazard, _Mediums and
Mediumship_, 1872

Based on his admirable research, I'd say that the answer to your
question is the early part of the nineteenth century.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |First Law of Anthropology:
SF Bay Area (1982-) | If they're doing something you
Chicago (1964-1982) | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
evan.kir...@gmail.com | ritual, or art.

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:

> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> I've lost the thread of the argument. I thought that you were arguing
>> that the "turn" in "turn on" was "change the state" as opposed to
>> "manipulate a control, originally one involving rotation".
>
> I am.
>
>> Lighting a candle or a fire is as much changing the state as causing
>> a gas or oil lamp to burn...
>
> But it's more work. I'm arguing that if the expression didn't arise
> with candles, it's people didn't think of activating the light as
> "simply changing the state" until they could do it as simply as by
> operating a control. Whether the control involved rotation or not
> was irrelevant.

So your contention is that it's simply irrelevant that the first
things anybody thought of "turning on" invloved actual "turning"?
Seems unnecessarily complex to me.

Let's take another approach, though. For the things that originally
involved control by turning, you could, e.g., "turn the water on" or
"turn on the water". For state changes, you can "turn the water
blue", but you can't "turn blue the water". That certainly makes it
seem like something different is going on, even today.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Now every hacker knows
SF Bay Area (1982-) | That the secret to survivin'
Chicago (1964-1982) |Is knowin' when the time is free
| And what's the load and queue
evan.kir...@gmail.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher
| And everyone's a user
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |And the best that you can hope for
| Is a crash when you're through

[Yusuf B Gursey]

from Wikipedia:

<<

In the most recent presidential election, which Democrat Barack Obama
received 47% of the Cuban American vote in Florida. According to
Bendixen's exit polls, 84% of Miami-Dade Cuban American voters 65 or
older backed McCain, while 55% of those 29 or younger backed
Obama.This indicates that the younger generation may be moving more
towards the political center.

...

In the 2007 ACS, there were 1,611,478 Americans with national origins
in Cuba. 983,147 were born abroad in Cuba, 628,331 were U.S born and
of the 1.6 million, 415,212 were not U.S citizens.

>>

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 7, 7:27 am, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 6, 8:22 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 4, 5:36 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 5/10/12 6:28 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 3, 8:36 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> > > >> On 4/10/12 7:05 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > > >>> I wouldn't recognize it as a commonplace. I would expect "feral".
> > > >>> That's what we call house cats (a few dogs) who have reverted back to
> > > >>> not depending on humans. Locally they cannot sustain themselves
> > > >>> because the competition from the genuine wild animals is too
> > > >>> formidable - but they can manage a few generations before they die
> > > >>> out.
>
> > > >> You should come to Australia. Cats, dogs, camels and quite a number of
> > > >> other creatures as well as garden plants find this country ideal for
> > > >> living without human assistance. There are of course no predators apart
> > > >> from dingos and snakes - cats and camels can avoid those easily enough
> > > >> and the dogs can just mate with the dingoes, although not with the snakes.
>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Robert Bannister
>
> > > > The local equivalent of a dingo is a coyote and they are death on
> > > > house cats. Cats that are surviving ferally seem to know how to avoid
> > > > them but your standard house cat - if it meets a  coyote - is
> > > > immediately killed (eaten I don't know about).
>
> > > Your standard house cat is also killed fairly quickly by feral cats that
> > > have grown quite a bit larger than their domestic cousins. Cast have
> > > been wild for some time now. Feral dogs don't usually last all that long
> > > unless they are in a largish pack or manage to mix in with dingoes. The
> > > camels and donkey, though, are doing very well. We export camels to Arabia.
>
> > > --
> > > Robert Bannister
>
> > I think your feral cats might be of more than casual interest.
> > Australia has no native cats. But here we have bobcats who are maybe
> > twice as big as a house cat (they seem able to inter-breed) and may be
> > contributing to the loss of feral cats. If your feral cat population
> > is evolving in size that might be interesting to a biologist.  Sort of
> > the feline version of a dingo (dinga?)
>
> Turkey has a large population of shall I say semi-feral cats, where
> the cat is not kept inside the house but is a regular visitor of the
> garden or lives outside a shop (sometimes given shelter). my
> grandmother and her sisters had lots of cats that were kept in the
> house and in addition to that the daily food scrappings were thrown
> into the garden to be gathered by the regular feline visitors from the
> street. our house was in a old and rural section of Istanbul (it has
> since been developed and renovated) with a large garden complete with
> its own well. Turkey has *lots* of cats in general. there was even a
> scene caught on TV where a stray tabby calmly licked himself in full
> view on the red carpet of the old imperial palace in istanbul during a
> reception given by the government to a visiting foreign dignitary.

I just read a PNAS article on the domestication of the cat. the cat
was not doemsticated through artificial selection. cats wandered into
settlments in the Near East and lived off the scrappings of humans and
the rodents they attracted and were tolerated by humans some 10,000
yrs, BP. hus natural selection favored tame indivduals. several
matrilineal lineages led to the domestic cat.unlike other domestic
animals they are not herd animals and don't have the instinct to
follow or obey others. thus the feral state is somewhat natural for
cats. Egypt introduced cats as household pets, though cat - human
remains and cats in Cyprus are found earlier. selective breeding of
cats became fashionable only some 200 years ago.

[DKleinecke]

On Oct 6, 8:01 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bobcats are Lynx rufus, a species of lynx.

We disappear into the maze of felid classification. Wikipedia says
some people put them all (I think they mean all four species) into the
genera felis.

I don't know whether cross-breeding across genera lines is not
supposed to be possible. We need expert help. California folklore
says it can and does happen.

Google "can house cat bobcat breed" and you will see the idea that
they can breed is at least wide spread. I didn't read all the hits but
all of them seem to me a little less than authoritative. Perhaps this
is, in fact, not really known.

[DKleinecke]

Actually that situation is almost the same as with me in rural central
California in the 1930's. I didn't not know of any standard local
house cats (I knew about them, of course, from books, movies, etc.)
All of our cats were what you call semi-feral and some not so semi. I
think the feral cats liked living near humans because people tend to
scare off larger predators (just as domestic cats appear to have
begun). Cats were not allowed into houses but, in the California
climate, that was not a hardship for them.

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/10/12 8:05 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
> On Oct 6, 8:01 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bobcats are Lynx rufus, a species of lynx.
>
> We disappear into the maze of felid classification. Wikipedia says
> some people put them all (I think they mean all four species) into the
> genera felis.
>
> I don't know whether cross-breeding across genera lines is not
> supposed to be possible. We need expert help. California folklore
> says it can and does happen.

On the other hand, we regularly hear of West Australian farmers who are
positive they have seen a mountain lion or a black panther on their
property. We even get the occasional paw print illustrated in our
newspapers. Strangely enough, no lion or leopard bodies have ever been
found.


--
Robert Bannister

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Oct 7, 8:05 pm, DKleinecke <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 6, 8:01 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Bobcats are Lynx rufus, a species of lynx.
>
> We disappear into the maze of felid classification. Wikipedia says
> some people put them all (I think they mean all four species) into the
> genera felis.
>
> I don't know whether cross-breeding across genera lines is not
> supposed to be possible.  We need expert help. California folklore
> says it can and does happen.

well, as of now 4 camel - lama hybrids ("cama"s) have been produced in
Dubai. they are of different genera. the website says that one female
colt has shown sexual interest in other camelids but it may be too
early to tell how fertile they are.

>
> Google "can house cat bobcat breed" and you will see the idea that
> they can breed is at least wide spread. I didn't read all the hits but
> all of them seem to me a little less than authoritative. Perhaps this
> is, in fact, not really known.

it seems to be much rarer than thought. perhaps it was a bobcat hybrid
that someone here said in Turkish that "they told me ears with long
fur are a sign of a "wildcat" (yaban kedisi) hybrid." actually I doubt
it very much for the female cat in question who had long fur on her
cheek and was very intelligent and had a loveably nasty temper (except
in regards to me) but was smaller than usual and had short legs.
sometimes we would nickname her "the lynx" (vas,ak [va*sh*ak /
va*sh*aq])

[Yusuf B Gursey]

mountain lions (Puma puma) are a New World species, sharing a genus
with the jaguarundi (Puma jaguarundi), a small New World cat, acc. to
some recent.

there have been reports of the Sinai leopard in Turkey, mostly
identified through feces. there is even a report of tiger having been
hunted in the mountainous SE corner in the 1920's.

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/10/12 3:26 AM, Dr Nick wrote:

> Damn. I behaved improperly at my mother-in-law's 80th birthday. I
> complimented the caterer (when I went back for seconds it was). Will
> she ever forgive me?

You are a dead man. Formal grovelling must be offered.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/10/12 3:25 AM, Dr Nick wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:
>

>> On Oct 7, 9:42 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the

>>> "self-catering holiday cottages". I know it means "you prepare your
>>> own meals", but "catering" has a particular connotation. So, my

>>> impression of a self-catering cottage wants to be one in which you
>>> go somewhere else, prepare a meal, and bring it to yourself in your
>>> rented cottage.
>>

>> Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
>> clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).
>

> I once lived in a house with "cottage" in the address. I think I'd

> have noticed if it was an outhouse or privy (in fact, the toilet was a
> modern extension as - when built - it didn't have such a thing).
>
> There is a specialist verb "to cottage" but that seems to be - in

> general use - utterly unrelated to the noun. There's even the

> (entertaining, because of the usual use of the verb) term

> "telecottaging". Whatever that means, it's got nothing to do with an

> outhouse or privy.
>
> It makes a cottage pie or cottage loaf sound pretty undesirable as well.
>

Well, originally both were made with left-overs.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/10/12 12:49 AM, Mike L wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:38:28 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 21:29:20 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>

>>> On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:01 +0100, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, can Americans download podcasts of Radio 4's _The News
>>>> Quiz_? The level of anti-Americanism was truly shaming this week. It has
>>>> always been there but it has got a lot worse since Sandi Toksvig took
>>>> over.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n1vm0
>>>
>>> I'd have expected that more from Jeremy Hardy. Missed it, anyway, as
>>> was having a siesta.
>>>>
>>>> (As Toksvig thinks it's OK to portray all Americans as stupid, is it OK
>>>> to say that she's a humourless cackling bigoted dwarf? Nah. Thought not.
>>>> Sorry.)
>>>
>>> You're in the clear with "dwarf", as she and everybody she works with
>>> go on about her nonpareilness all the time. The others I'm sure you're
>>> allowed to say about anybody.
>>>

>> When I switched on the telly in my bedroom this morning the first person
>> I saw was Sandi Toksvig. She was in a current affairs programme
>> discussing what was in the newspapers. She was sitting on a sofa. Her
>> head was the same height as the man's next to her. She was boosted by a
>> not insignificant cushion.
>

> Ah, that was it, was it? I was in a hurry, so I just thought "How odd!
> He must be little, too." They once pulled back from a College Green
> interview with Polly Toynbee and a.n.o., revealing that Ms T was
> standing on a photographer's aluminium case.
>

Alan Ladd got away with standing on boxes in movies for years. I must
admit I thought he was only just over 5 foot, but Wiki says:

"Reports of his height vary from 5'5" to 5'9" (from his military
records) (1.65 to 1.75 m), with 5'6" (1.68 m) being the most generally
accepted today."

--
Robert Bannister

[Jack Campin]

> When did the lexical item "turn on" originate in the first place,
> and in what context?

I don't know if there is any connection with "turn off", but I have
seen execution broadsides from early 19th century Scotland where the
victim was described as being "turned off", meaning pushed off the
gallows.

[Robert Bannister]

On 7/10/12 6:45 PM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 06/10/2012 8:35 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> "Universal" refers to the universe of discourse. I extrapolate from
>> the US, which has a federal Department of Education, which sets
>> certain standards. Don't you have Ministries of this and that?
>>
> Since the topic has expanded to two different countries, I think it
> reasonable to assume that the universe of discourse is bigger than either.
>
> And no, there is no federal ministry or department of education in
> Canada, although we have a wide range of mninistries concerning
> themselves with other areas.
>
> I think the feds may concern themselves somewhat with the education of
> children of native people, children of military personnel, and children
> whose native language is a minority language, assuming it's either
> French or English, and assuming 'numbers warrant'. They subsidize
> post-secondary education. They may provide educational materials you can
> get on request on topics like 'How your House of Commons works" or "Your
> National Parks" (I haven't actually seen such documents, but I've seen
> similar ones and it's likely they exist). But they do not run
> educational matters from pre-school to the end of high school. The
> provinces do. If you want to find out about Canadian education policies,
> you look at the provincial government and school board web sites, not to
> the feds.

That's interesting. We have a federal Minister of Education in Australia
and the feds do contribute money, but education is managed by state
governments who strongly resist any federal pressure to influence
anything whatsoever. The states pay roughly 90% of the education budget
anyway.


--
Robert Bannister

[Peter T. Daniels]

> climate, that was not a hardship for them.-

I saw lots of cats in Haifa and Akko -- they mostly have pointy faces
as in Egyptian depictions, rather than the flatter faces familiar in
the US. In Akko they wander through the cafes in the bazaar, begging
from tourists.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 5:44 pm, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

That's a big if. Buffet service isn't the first thing that comes to
mind at an 80th-birthday party; I pictured a luncheon served at
tables, or at most an affair with circulating servers with trays of
nosherei.

> We haven't been told how many guests there
> were at the party, but assuming they could be counted in tens rather
> than hundreds there would have been a few or several servers in addition
> to the chief caterer. In such circumstances it would often be fairly
> easy to notice by their behaviour towards one another who was in charge.
>
> Of course if Nick had been involved in arranging the birthday
> celebrations he might have met the caterer in advance. There are other
> possibilities.

Then he wouldn't have needed to accost him/her at the event itself.

As Yusuf mentioned not so long ago, if you hear hoofbeats, don't look
for zebras.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 5:52 pm, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 13:58:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>
>
>
>
>

> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >On Oct 7, 3:24 pm, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
> >> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>

> >> > On Oct 7, 9:42 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the

> >> >> "self-catering holiday cottages". I know it means "you prepare your
> >> >> own meals", but "catering" has a particular connotation. So, my

> >> >> impression of a self-catering cottage wants to be one in which you
> >> >> go somewhere else, prepare a meal, and bring it to yourself in your
> >> >> rented cottage.
>
> >> > Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
> >> > clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).
>

> >> I once lived in a house with "cottage" in the address. I think I'd

> >> have noticed if it was an outhouse or privy (in fact, the toilet was a
> >> modern extension as - when built - it didn't have such a thing).
>
> >> There is a specialist verb "to cottage" but that seems to be - in

> >> general use - utterly unrelated to the noun. There's even the

> >> (entertaining, because of the usual use of the verb) term

> >> "telecottaging". Whatever that means, it's got nothing to do with an

> >> outhouse or privy.
>
> >> It makes a cottage pie or cottage loaf sound pretty undesirable as well.
>
> >So what is the origin of the verb?
>
> The verb comes from an old slang sense of "cottage" to mean "A public
> lavatory or urinal".

Esclusively British. (And perhaps infiltrated some of the colonies/
commonwealths.)

> Your words upthread "the British sense of "cottage" (i.e.,
> outhouse/privy)" imply that that is the only, or primary, sense of the
> word in BrE - which it definitely isn't.

Well, it's the one that's crossed the Pond.

[Robert Bannister]

What I was getting at was that the reports of farmers in remote rural
areas cannot be trusted. Whether it's alcohol, mental illness or simply
loneliness I would not like to say.

--
Robert Bannister

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> Dr Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> Damn. �I behaved improperly at my mother-in-law's 80th birthday. >>>
I complimented the caterer (when I went back for seconds it was).
>>

>> It was highly inappropriate for a guest to enter the caterer's
>> workspace.
>

Dr Nick did *not* enter the caterer's workspace, you gormless ninnyhammer!

>
>> (Or does "went back" not mean "went in the back to the kitchen"?
>

No, it *doesn't* mean "went in the back to the kitchen"!

>
>> Do you mean you went back to the buffet table?
>

Of course, you ignorant schmuck!

>
> To me "went back for seconds" means simply "returned for another
> helping of food".
>

Of course. In this context, "to go back for seconds" means *only* "to
return to the (buffet) *table* for another helping of food."

Petey's lacking command of his mother tongue is simply incredible and embarrassing.

(Speaking of "seconds," there's also "sloppy seconds" -- something Petey
may know about.)

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 7:19 pm, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> The usage of "catering" that always throws me at first is the
> >> "self-catering holiday cottages".
> > Who says that? It appears to use the British sense of "cater" but
> > clearly not the British sense of "cottage" (i.e., outhouse/privy).
>
> Look at the title of this webpage:
>
> http://www.yorkshireholidaycottages.co.uk/
>
> (We book one through them every year).
>
> Not many British people outside the gay subculture ever encounter
> the "toilet" sense for "cottage" - I think it's American in origin?

No, (obsolete?) American for that is "tearoom" and "the tearoom
trade," but it _doesn't_ refer to the facility in any other context.

Tea rooms are a chi-chi and practically extinct variety of restaurant
(the Schrafft's chain was well known in NYC), patronized by ladies who
lunch. The celebrated Russian Tea Room (adjacent to Carnegie Hall)
presumably started out as one but definitely isn't any more.

> I have once seen a house in a Scottish village with an entirely
> un-ironic sign beside the door, wreathed in ivy and roses, naming
> it as "Gay Cottage".  I wonder if the owners ever decoded the
> occasional giggles from passers by.

Can you really say "I have once seen" in that context, rather than "I
once saw"? If so, and it's not an editing inconsistency, is that a
Scotticism? (One gets it from native speakers of German.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Then Veronica Lake must have been quite tall for her era.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Oct 7, 7:17 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>

No. I do not need to "make explicit" everything that is obvious from
context.

I have said that before, but you constantly interpret everything as
maliciously literally or inclusively as possible so as to perform what
you think is tripping me up.

> > (The absence of the entire context above my statement is immensely
> > telling.)

How nice of you not to deny it. (And not to Nathanwise delete the
comment entirely.)

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Depends where you are.