Second Eldest Child
Farhad
A couple of questions:
1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
a) John is second eldest of eight children.
b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
Many thanks,
Farhad
Lars Eighner
<2b13b4fb-f4d7-450a...@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Farhad
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Dear All,
> A couple of questions:
> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
Both. b) is probably safer.
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
This has been discussed here many times before. There is no convenient and
widely understood way to ask this question in English. Terms like "birth
order," although popular with demographers and other specialists, are likely
to give most native speakers pause. If you really wanted to know in
conversation, you would make a guess and ask for confirmation:
"Were you the oldest child?"
"So, is John your third child?"
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> use...@larseighner.com
127 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Dear All,
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
>
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
Both are correct. The second might be somewhat more common, and I'd
expect to hear it more often with "oldest" rather than "eldest",
though both are fine. I don't get any differences in connotation
among them.
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
We get this question a lot. English doesn't have a simple way to ask
for a position in an ordered sequence. The most straightforward way
would be something like "Where is John among the children in his
family?" (Which can, you'll understand, get smart-alec responses.)
The most common way to elicit the information is probably "Is John the
oldest child in his family?" with the expectation that an answer of
"No" will be further elaborated, e.g., "No, he's the third of four."
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
> Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> A couple of questions:
>>
>> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
>>
>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>
> Both are correct. The second might be somewhat more common, and I'd
> expect to hear it more often with "oldest" rather than "eldest",
> though both are fine. I don't get any differences in connotation
> among them.
The "elder" and "eldest" forms are typical of British-style English--in
this context, but not in others--but I have a slight feeling that they
are used less commonly than they used to be.
In any case, I think we'd usually say "John is the second of eight
children."
[...]
--
Mike.
Mark Brader
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
For me "eldest" is incomparable, so both are wrong. It has to be
"second-oldest".
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above?
You can't. See other responses.
--
Mark Brader | "Nitwit ideas are for emergencies. The rest of the
Toronto | time you go by the Book, which is mostly a collection
m...@vex.net | of nitwit ideas that worked. -- Niven & Pournelle
Arcadian Rises
> Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Dear All,
>
> > A couple of questions:
>
> > 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
>
> > a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> > b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>
> Both are correct. �The second might be somewhat more common, and I'd
> expect to hear it more often with "oldest" rather than "eldest",
> though both are fine. �I don't get any differences in connotation
> among them.
>
> > 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> > correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>
> We get this question a lot. �English doesn't have a simple way to ask
> for a position in an ordered sequence. �The most straightforward way
> would be something like "Where is John among the children in his
> family?" �(Which can, you'll understand, get smart-alec responses.)
>
> The most common way to elicit the information is probably "Is John the
> oldest child in his family?" with the expectation that an answer of
> "No" will be further elaborated, e.g., "No, he's the third of four."
Wouldn't it be easier to replace "oldest" with "first born"? Then the
birth order will follow "like butter": Jim, the first born and Julie,
the third born, live in New York."
Mark Brader
> > a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> > b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
> For me "eldest" is incomparable, so both are wrong. It has to be
> "second-oldest".
Oh, and with that change, it's (b).
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Don't let it drive you crazy...
m...@vex.net | Leave the driving to us!" --Wayne & Shuster
Evan Kirshenbaum
It might be easier, and it wouldn't be wrong, but it wouldn't be
common, at least in my experience.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took
|place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn
(650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
| Kevin Wald
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Tasha Miller
> Dear All,
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
>
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
b) if you change eldest to oldest. I wouldn't even bother with either,
though, because they are superfluous and would just say John is the second
of eight children.
>
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
Which number child in the family is John? I have no idea if that's correct
but, as a native speaker, that's how I'd ask.
Prai Jei
> Dear All,
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
>
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
Check out Arthur Robert Nathaniel Chatto, son of Lady Sarah Chatto and so
the second child of the second child of the ... to six generations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Sarah_Chatto
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Farhad
wrote:
> Which number child in the family is John?
Does this semtence, which Tasha proposed, seem natural and correct to
native English speakers?
Farhad
Skitt
> "Tasha Miller" wrote:
>> Which number child in the family is John?
>
> Does this semtence, which Tasha proposed, seem natural and correct to
> native English speakers?
Not really.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Mike Lyle
Which I think Tasha herself conceded. But I'm quite sure we don't have a
neat way of asking the question. One of the times this has arisen here
in the past, I think we agreed that this is probably because our culture
doesn't regard the information as at all important in ordinary families,
so the language hasn't evolved a way of dealing with it. I can easily
hear myself saying "X is my second daughter", but I don't know why I
would ask anybody else for family rankings beyond simply "Is she the
first/eldest/youngest?".
--
Mike.
Skitt
I was going to say all of that, but something else came up.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Evan Kirshenbaum
Right. The historically important concepts were "eldest" and
"younger" (i.e., anything but eldest). Now I'd say that the important
concepts are "only", "oldest", "youngest", and "middle" (i.e.,
anythngi between "oldest" and "youngest"). The actual numbers haven't
been that important.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
R H Draney
I don't remember the family birth-order version of this question coming up as
often as the dynastic one of the form "which number President was Chester
Arthur?"...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Tasha Miller
Yes.
Of course I then went on to toss and turn all night over my unsatisfactory
off-the-cuff answer. On reflection I would be most likely to ask "How many
older brothers and sisters does John have?" or "How many older siblings has
John?" if I was being frugal with my words that day. (An infrequent
occurrence.)
tony cooper
wrote:
It's not common, but the question would be understood.
Someone who is known to be one of several siblings might be asked
"Where do you fall?". That doesn't make sense of the face of it, but
it would be understood.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
>>> Which number child in the family is John?
Farhad L.:
>> Does this semtence, which Tasha proposed, seem natural and correct to
>> native English speakers?
It feels a bit wrong, but we know there's no right way to say it tersely.
This is as good as any.
"Skitt":
> Not really.
Native English speaker?
--
Mark Brader "How diabolically clever: a straightforward message!
Toronto Only a genius could have thought of that."
m...@vex.net -- Maxwell Smart (Agent 86)
Nick
> Mike Lyle filted:
>>
>>Skitt wrote:
>>> Farhad wrote:
>>>> "Tasha Miller" wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Which number child in the family is John?
>>>>
>>>> Does this semtence, which Tasha proposed, seem natural and correct to
>>>> native English speakers?
>>>
>>> Not really.
>>
>>Which I think Tasha herself conceded. But I'm quite sure we don't have a
>>neat way of asking the question. One of the times this has arisen here
>>in the past, I think we agreed that this is probably because our culture
>>doesn't regard the information as at all important in ordinary families,
>>so the language hasn't evolved a way of dealing with it. I can easily
>>hear myself saying "X is my second daughter", but I don't know why I
>>would ask anybody else for family rankings beyond simply "Is she the
>>first/eldest/youngest?".
>
> I don't remember the family birth-order version of this question coming up as
> often as the dynastic one of the form "which number President was Chester
> Arthur?"...r
I remember it somewhere - I'm not sure if it was here - about the order
that shops in a chain opened.
So "What number Woolworths is the Leeds one?". Again, the same
conclusion - that it wasn't really a concept English speakers used or
even had so there wasn't a phrase for it.
A very weak backwards Sapir-Worf I suppose.
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Skitt
> Tasha Miller:
>>>> Which number child in the family is John?
>
> Farhad L.:
>>> Does this semtence, which Tasha proposed, seem natural and correct
>>> to native English speakers?
>
> It feels a bit wrong, but we know there's no right way to say it
> tersely. This is as good as any.
>
> "Skitt":
>> Not really.
>
> Native English speaker?
Well, no, but with longer English experience than some -- 60 years.
--
Skitt (AmE)
No NESsie, but oh, so close ...
Farhad
Mike Lyle wrote:
> ... But I'm quite sure we don't have a
> neat way of asking the question. One of the times this has arisen here
> in the past, I think we agreed that this is probably because our culture
> doesn't regard the information as at all important in ordinary families,
> so the language hasn't evolved a way of dealing with it. I can easily
> hear myself saying "X is my second daughter", but I don't know why I
> would ask anybody else for family rankings beyond simply "Is she the
> first/eldest/youngest?".
I found this response so appealing, but how could one connect the
point that English cannot make a wh-question about positions in an
ordered sequence to language evolution?
I agree that the culture of a people can influence their vocabulary.
For example, in Persian, there are four words for the Engish "aunt"
depending on whether your aunt is your mother's sister, your father's
sister, the wife of your mother's brother, or the wife of your
father's brother. Similarly, Iranian's use the word AROUS for the
three Englih words "bride", "daughter-in-law", and "sister-in-law".
These have to do something wih the connection between languaga and
culture. But how can culture affect the grammar of a language?
Maybe these days many English speaking families have no more than a
couple of children. So they may not need to ask about the sequential
order of children. But there were times back in the history when
Enlish speaking families had more children than the number of all
fingrs on both their hands. Besides, sequential position questions are
not only limited to birth-order; there are other situations that might
require such type of questions. So, I don't think this is a matter of
language evolution or the effect of culture on the richness of a
language.
Your comments are so welcome.
Mike Lyle
Well, the plain fact is that I don't know. But it doesn't seem unlikely
to me that culture could affect the evolution of grammar, or syntax, as
well as vocabulary.
--
Mike.
Nick
I'm inclined to agree with Mike here. I can't think of many things
where it matters to me whether someone or something is the 5th in a
series. Whether it is "older" or "newer", or "older" or "younger", or
"higher" or "lower" yes. Whether it is "first" or "last", or "oldest"
or "youngest", or "top" or "bottom" yes.
So we have words for at one end of the line and for relative postion for
others within the line. But not for absolute position on the line.
And, as I say, my feeling is the reason why is that we don't have any
need for them. So perhaps the question is why other languages do seem
to need them, and what do they use them for? (note, I /can/ see the use
of more detailed kin words, for example, and find myself missing them;
just as I miss more detailed group pronouns).
Farhad
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
I asked the question above a few weeks ago. I received many responses
from AUE members, most of whom said native English speakers do not
have a neat way to organize such a question. They said they ask if
someone is, for instance, the second child with the hope of receiving
a response indicating his birth order.
I've thought about it a lot since then. I came up with a sentence the
correctness and acceptability of which I doubt. Again, dear native
English speakers' comments are so welcome.
What is the order in which John was born?
Farhd
Derek Turner
> Again, dear native English
> speakers' comments are so welcome.
>
What is the order /within the family/ in which John was born?
The trouble is, *any* English phrase will sound odd and clumsy because
you are expressing (or trying to express) a notion that simply does not
exist in English.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
There is also a risk in asking "What is the order in which John was
born?". There might have been one or more babies who were stillborn or
who died soon after birth before John was born.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ilpo
> And, as I say, my feeling is the reason why is that we don't have any
> need for them. So perhaps the question is why other languages do seem
> to need them, and what do they use them for?
To me, a speaker of a language where this "how manyeth" construction
is common and widely used, it seems a bit odd that there appears to be
no tools for asking this kind of questions in English. With five
minutes' thinking and some googling I came up with at least the
following uses in Finnish (not in any particular order; may be partly
or totally overlapping):
- how manyeth year in university is it for you?
- how manyeth did you finish in the competition?
- how manyeth *something* from the left is it?
- how manyeth floor/episode/...
- (God knows) how manyeth time! (exclamation)
- how manyeth day (of a month - date of the month)
- how manyeth fastest (i.e. the question for "I was third fastest")
It is easy to see that most of these can easily be expressed in
English with a different construction. Some of them would be equally
idiomatic in Finnish as well, at least in some contexts, e.g. "which
floor?" for "how manyeth floor?". But in many cases the closest
English equivalent I'm able to come up with (or likewise the Finnish
equivalent without "how manyeth") appears to be at least somewhat more
convoluted, and in some cases I'm not sure if I can find any (others
surely would, of course). It'd be interesting to hear whether English
is the odd man out in this sense or is having this construction in a
language more like an exception (I'd be inclined to believe the
former).
Cheryl P.
That doesn't sound quite right either. At one time, people wrote popular
books explaining how personality was determined by position in the
family in childhood. They tended to use the term 'birth order'. " What
is John's birth order?
I'd split it into two questions - 'Does John come from a big family?'
and 'Is John the eldest (or youngest) in his family?' in hopes of
eliciting the desired information.
Cheryl
Bertel Lund Hansen
> There is also a risk in asking "What is the order in which John was
> born?".
The Knights of Jerusalem.
> There might have been one or more babies who were stillborn or
> who died soon after birth before John was born.
Same problem with: "Is he your second child?" I do believe that
sensible parents will have worked out long ago how to handle this
kind of question if they have a stillborn child or a baby who
died.
There is no idiomatic phrase for the question in question in
Danish either.
--
Bertel, Denmark
CDB
It would probably be understood, especially if you added "in the (or
'his') family" somewhere in the question, but it doesn't sound like
something a native speaker would say. I suppose you could ask, "Does
John have any older brothers or sisters?" If the answer is not
detailed enough, you might have to ask again: "How many (in all)?"
Roland Hutchinson
You are getting closer, but it does not make sense to a native English
speaker to speak of one single person (John) being born "in order".
You could, however, ask about the order of the whole group:
What was the order in which John and his siblings were born?
Or ask specifically about John by asking:
Where does John stand in order of birth among his siblings?
(or, "...among his brothers and sisters").
This second question, however, is, to use your words, not a "neat way"
of asking. It sounds a bit "clinical" (i.e.it's technical language --
almost jargon -- that a doctor might use).
In everyday conversation (though not in writing), if I wanted to know
where John stood in the birth-order of his siblings, I'd be inclined to
say something like:
Is John the oldest child in his family, or the youngest, or what?
Or just
Is John the oldest child in his family?
(If he is not, the person answering will probably say exactly where he
stands in birth order, if the person knows, e.g.: "No, he has two older
sisters" or "No, has an older brother and an older sister", etc.)
Or,
Are John's brothers and sisters older or younger than he is? (or,
more colloquially, "...older or younger than him?" or possibly just
"...older or younger?")
(Again, with this question, I'd usually expect full information in
return, though it is also possible to get an answer like "they are all
older" which does not tell you how many older siblings he has -- in
which case, I'd follow up by asking: "How many?" if I wanted more
complete information.)
Usually, though, if we are interested in birth order at all, "oldest",
"youngest", or "in-between" ("a middle child") is all we want to know in
(and, since families with more than three children are less common than
they used to be, often that _is_ complete information!).
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Maria Conlon
[...]
> In everyday conversation (though not in writing), if I wanted to know
> where John stood in the birth-order of his siblings, I'd be inclined
> to
> say something like:
>
> Is John the oldest child in his family, or the youngest, or what?
I'm glad to see "oldest" used there. "Eldest" is not all that common in
some locales these days. (It may well be common in others, of course.)
> Or just
>
> Is John the oldest child in his family?
>
> (If he is not, the person answering will probably say exactly where he
> stands in birth order, if the person knows, e.g.: "No, he has two
> older
> sisters" or "No, has an older brother and an older sister", etc.)
>
> Or,
>
> Are John's brothers and sisters older or younger than he is? (or,
> more colloquially, "...older or younger than him?" or possibly just
> "...older or younger?")
[...]
"...than him" is much more likely among some (many?) Americans. Never
mind that "than he is" is considered correct; it's also considered
rather too formal in some circles.
This is not to criticize anyone, just to comment on "what's out there"
in this living, changing language.
--
Maria Conlon
Jerry Friedman
> Farhad wrote:
> > On May 27, 12:58 pm, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> >> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>
> >> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> >> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>
> > I asked the question above a few weeks ago. I received many responses
> > from AUE members, most of whom said native English speakers do not
> > have a neat way to organize such a question. They said they ask if
> > someone is, for instance, the second child with the hope of receiving
> > a response indicating his birth order.
>
> > I've thought about it a lot since then. I came up with a sentence the
> > correctness and acceptability of which I doubt. Again, dear native
> > English speakers' comments are so welcome.
>
> > What is the order in which John was born?
>
> > Farhd
>
> That doesn't sound quite right either. At one time, people wrote popular
> books explaining how personality was determined by position in the
> family in childhood. They tended to use the term 'birth order'. " What
> is John's birth order?
I think I'd expect, "Where is John in birth order?" This is one of
the most concise ways of asking the question, though I think a lot of
people would add something redundant, maybe to help the listener
understand. "Where is John in birth order in his family?" or "Where
is John in birth order among his siblings?"
> I'd split it into two questions - 'Does John come from a big family?'
> and 'Is John the eldest (or youngest) in his family?' in hopes of
> eliciting the desired information.
And, maybe because we don't have "How manyth?", you're likely to get a
lot of information in response to just the first question.
"Does John come from a big family?"
"Yes, he's the second of eleven children."
--
Jerry Friedman
John Varela
"Order" unmodified suggests a religious order, as Bertel Hansen
indicated when he responded "Knights of Jerusalem". I would have
preferred "Benedictine", but let it pass.
Because birth order is not something of concern to most English
speakers, you must put "birth" before "order" to make it clear what
you're asking about.
"What is John's placement in his family's birth order?"
Or, less formally:
"Where is John in his family's birth order?"
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I've thought about it a lot since then. I came up with a sentence the
>correctness and acceptability of which I doubt. Again, dear native
>English speakers' comments are so welcome.
>
>What is the order in which John was born?
Alas, I think the most likely reponse to this would be "head first, then the
rest" - with suitable modifications in the case of a breech birth or other
complications.
Nice try, but it won't work.
Katy
Mark Brader
> To me, a speaker of a language where this "how manyeth" construction
> is common and widely used, it seems a bit odd that there appears to be
> no tools for asking this kind of questions in English. With five
> minutes' thinking and some googling I came up with at least the
> following uses in Finnish (not in any particular order; may be partly
> or totally overlapping):
>
> - how manyeth year in university is it for you?
> - how manyeth did you finish in the competition?
> - how manyeth *something* from the left is it?
> - how manyeth floor/episode/...
> - (God knows) how manyeth time! (exclamation)
> - how manyeth day (of a month - date of the month)
> - how manyeth fastest (i.e. the question for "I was third fastest")
>
> It is easy to see that most of these can easily be expressed in
> English with a different construction.
Yes. For the first six, I would probably ask:
Which year are you in (at university)?
Where did you place in the competition?
How many places (or *somethings*) from the left is it?
What floor...? What number episode...?
How many times!
What day of the month?
The last one is like the birth-order question, though: it's necessary
to use a longer wording, like "How does ... rank in terms of speed?"
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "You don't SIT IN the traffic jam;
m...@vex.net | you ARE the traffic jam." -- Werner Icking
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Nick
> What is the order in which John was born?
No, because an individual can't be in an order. The only thing that
question can literally mean is "did his head or his bum come out
first?".
As we said last time, we really don't care about this, so don't ask.
Ditto for - if I recall correctly another conversation in a similar vein
- we don't ask what is the ordinal number of our local branch of a chain
of shops.
Lars Eighner
<2b13b4fb-f4d7-450a...@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Farhad broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Dear All,
> A couple of questions:
> 1. Which one of the sentences below is correct?
> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
b) is probably more common.
> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
No. There is no simple way to ask this question in English.
We get so many questions about this that I am being to think that this is
a very important issue in some non-English-speaking cultures.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5795, 1993
174 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Lars Eighner
<45e75cfe-5507-4ccb...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> On May 27, 12:58�pm, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>>
>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
> I asked the question above a few weeks ago.
Opps. I suppose I have now answered it twice.
> I received many responses from AUE members, most of whom said native
> English speakers do not have a neat way to organize such a question. They
> said they ask if someone is, for instance, the second child with the hope
> of receiving a response indicating his birth order.
> I've thought about it a lot since then. I came up with a sentence the
> correctness and acceptability of which I doubt. Again, dear native
> English speakers' comments are so welcome.
> What is the order in which John was born?
No. John being born is one event. For "order" to be meaningful, there
would have to be more than one event.
Believe me, this comes up every six months or so, and no one has discovered
an easy answer. Moreover, a novel way of putting it would not be part of
the language yet. I am pretty sure there are technical terms in sociology
or anthropology which would get at the desired meaning. But there is nothing
in the general language that you could reasonably expect non-academic people
to understand.
A census-taker's question might be: "Would you tell me the names of your
children from oldest to youngest?" Most people could understand that
question, but would find it odd or offensive in ordinary conversation. And
it leaves it up to you to reason the answer to your question about John.
For most purposes, primogeniture has been outlawed in English-speaking
places for centuries, and even when it was lawful, the only question was who
was the eldest. It is not a culturally important question in most
English-speaking cultures. Oldest, youngest, and middle are as fine as
these distinctions ever get in conversation.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Right. My response for my son would almost certainly be something
like "He tried to come out feet first, and when they couldn't turn him
around, the doctors opted for a C-section."
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring
|bankers.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Skitt
> Farhad broadcast:
>> Farhad wrote:
>>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>>>
>>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>
>> I asked the question above a few weeks ago.
>
> Opps. I suppose I have now answered it twice.
I know what "oops" is. What is "opps"? A typo? I have seen it quite a few
times before.
--
Skitt (AmE)
R H Draney
>
>In our last episode,
><2b13b4fb-f4d7-450a...@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, the
>lovely and talented Farhad broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>
>No. There is no simple way to ask this question in English.
>
>We get so many questions about this that I am being to think that this is
>a very important issue in some non-English-speaking cultures.
Maybe the best solution would be to simply ask the question in one of those
other languages....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
tony cooper
wrote:
>Lars Eighner filted:
>>
>>In our last episode,
>><2b13b4fb-f4d7-450a...@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, the
>>lovely and talented Farhad broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>>
>>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>>
>>No. There is no simple way to ask this question in English.
>>
>>We get so many questions about this that I am being to think that this is
>>a very important issue in some non-English-speaking cultures.
>
>Maybe the best solution would be to simply ask the question in one of those
>other languages....r
My wife is one of eight siblings. She's never had to deal with the
birth order question problem because she announces that she's the
youngest of eight.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Lars Eighner
talented Skitt broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Lars Eighner wrote:
>> Farhad broadcast:
>>> Farhad wrote:
>>>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>>>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>>>>
>>>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>>>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>>
>>> I asked the question above a few weeks ago.
>>
>> Opps. I suppose I have now answered it twice.
> I know what "oops" is.
When did they change it?
> What is "opps"? A typo? I have seen it quite a few times before.
Because once "opps" was the only way it was spelled.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> We get so many questions about this that I am being to think that this is
> a very important issue in some non-English-speaking cultures.
I don't think that it is a very important issue in Denmark - not
even important - and it has been many years since I have come
across it, but people do speculate about what it means for one's
personality which number in the sibling group one has.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
There is a special case in English-speaking countries in which position
in the birth order is considered important by some people:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_son_of_a_seventh_son
The seventh son of a seventh son is a concept from folklore
regarding special powers given to, or held by, such a son.
Ireland
The seventh son of a seventh son is gifted as a healer.
UK
It is believed that the seventh son of a seventh [son] will be born
with magic powers.
HVS
My wife is the third eldest of six. If she's been asked what
"eldest number" child she is, I suspect it's been phrased as "how
many older siblings she has". As others have said, though, it
doesn't really arise as an important issue.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Jerry Friedman
> In our last episode,
> <2b13b4fb-f4d7-450a-b360-3727791df...@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, the
> lovely and talented Farhad broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> > 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
> > correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>
> No. There is no simple way to ask this question in English.
>
> We get so many questions about this that I am being to think that this is
> a very important issue in some non-English-speaking cultures.
The one I know of is Chinese.
"Also, since it is taboo to refer to or address a more senior family
relation by his or her given name, the kinship term is the only
possible term of address. In the case where there are multiple
siblings such as found in many Post-World War II baby boom families,
the relation is distinguished and addressed according to their age or
rank. For example 大 (great/senior/elder) is address for 大姨 (the eldest
sister of one's mother); 二姨 (the 2nd eldest sister of one's mother); 三
姨 (3rd eldest sister of one's mother) etc."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_kinship
(We'll see who gets the Chinese characters. The ones for "two" and
"three" are quite intelligible to us non-Chinese.)
Fun project: translate that article into native-speaker English.
--
Jerry Friedman
Amethyst Deceiver
says...
I'm so glad I read the thread before answering. That was certainly my
first thought on the question!
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Tacia
[snip]
> The one I know of is Chinese.
>
> "Also, since it is taboo to refer to or address a more senior family
> relation by his or her given name, the kinship term is the only
> possible term of address. In the case where there are multiple
> siblings such as found in many Post-World War II baby boom families,
> the relation is distinguished and addressed according to their age or
> rank. For example 大 (great/senior/elder) is address for 大姨 (the eldest
> sister of one's mother); 二姨 (the 2nd eldest sister of one's mother); 三
> 姨 (3rd eldest sister of one's mother) etc."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_kinship
>
> (We'll see who gets the Chinese characters. The ones for "two" and
> "three" are quite intelligible to us non-Chinese.)
Hi,
The common Chinese character for "one" is "一," as intelligible as
those for "two" and "three."
They are pretty much like "prostrate" Roman numerals for "one," "two,"
and "three."
But the numerical characters from "four" to "ten" might not be easily
understood for non-Chinese.
People who are interested might take a look at http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html
(The Chinese characters are shown in pictures, so you won't get
garbage characters.)
Skitt
> Skitt broadcast:
>>> Farhad broadcast:
>>>> Farhad wrote:
>
>>>>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>>>>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>>>>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>>>
>>>> I asked the question above a few weeks ago.
>>>
>>> Opps. I suppose I have now answered it twice.
>
>> I know what "oops" is.
>
> When did they change it?
>
>> What is "opps"? A typo? I have seen it quite a few times before.
>
> Because once "opps" was the only way it was spelled.
Hmm. M-W Online has "oops", but not "opps".
--
Skitt (AmE)
R H Draney
>
>On 7=A4=EB14=A4=E9, =A4U=A4=C810=AE=C905=A4=C0, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried=
>...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> (We'll see who gets the Chinese characters. The ones for "two" and
>> "three" are quite intelligible to us non-Chinese.)
>
>those for "two" and "three."
>They are pretty much like "prostrate" Roman numerals for "one," "two,"
>and "three."
>But the numerical characters from "four" to "ten" might not be easily
>understood for non-Chinese.
The character for "ten" should also be fairly transparent for non-Chinese
acquainted with Roman numerals....
In Japanese (and for all I know in Chinese as well), "99" is sometimes called a
"white" number because the character for "white" is the same as that for "100"
less the single horizontal stroke for "one"....
>People who are interested might take a look at http://www.mandarintools.com=
>/numbers.html
>(The Chinese characters are shown in pictures, so you won't get
>garbage characters.)
I could see the Chinese characters in your post and in Jerry's, but I know they
won't come through if I quote them in reply....r
Maria Conlon
> Skitt said:
>> Lars Eighner wrote:
>>> Farhad broadcast:
>>>> Farhad wrote:
>
>>>>> a) John is second eldest of eight children.
>>>>> b) John is the second eldest of eight children.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. How can one ask a wh-question about the sentence above? Is it
>>>>> correct to say "Which eldest child of the family is John?"
>>>
>>>> I asked the question above a few weeks ago.
>>>
>>> Opps. I suppose I have now answered it twice.
>
>> I know what "oops" is.
>
> When did they change it?
>
>> What is "opps"? A typo? I have seen it quite a few times before.
>
> Because once "opps" was the only way it was spelled.
I expected more of a "Roman goddess" reply. Or something about
opportunities.
--
Maria Conlon
John Kane
wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:49:35 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
>
And of course the eldest son gets the throne. Or eldest daughter if
there is no son.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
Roland Hutchinson
Yup. By calling it "more colloquial" I did not mean to suggest that
educated speakers would avoid the "incorrect" construction, though some
might if speaking in a very formal context.
Roland Hutchinson
I'd be tempted to respond, "What? All of him?"
Roland Hutchinson
That was a big topic in American "pop psychology" in, oh, the 1970s or
so.