Looking for author source of plagiarized piece
shorts...@my-dejanews.com
someone who can identify the real author. Does anybody recognize this?
The teacher has been looking for a source for over a week now--all I can
guess is that it's a 1917-1930 piece, possibly by an African American author.
Can any of those great minds out there help?
This is the first half of the poem:
TIME
There is talk among us all, but seldom talk of death.
Those who oppose, and those who are in agreement with,
And I who populate one third of your world, my voice will
not be heard,
I am continually criticized and categorized,
But I must create my own humble abode in the future.
And yet, the pace at which this cock-eyed world goes, no
future will come.
If they get careless, what will be left.
But today you are planning what should be mine to
rightfully plan for tomorrow.
Each generation makes its own mistake; will ours be World
War II?
They say nothing can exist without the sun,
so, why can’t we learn from our mistakes?
Killing! Endless destruction all caused by war...
A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power and yet
accomplishing almost nothing.
If we go to war again, it will affect me, the lost
generation.
Thanks.
Shortstrokes
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Rushtown
>From: shorts...@my-dejanews.com
>Date: 2/26/99 5:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <7b7j3d$c39$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
This is original. It is not plagiarized. You
shouldn't be so suspicious or jealous of your students so as to be looking
forward t humiliating an
obviously talented student.
shorts...@my-dejanews.com
a. It's not one of my students.
I distinctly remember asking if any great minds out here could help.
Nice try, but no cigar.
Winston Smith
If I may be so bold...To add to the above. As a student many years
ago, I worked hard and long on a poem to be delivered before a class
and teacher I loved DEARLY. To my dismay I was belittled before that
class by that teacher for PLAGIARISM.I was crushed. I never put forth
in the class any more effort. I saw no point in doing so.
Fabian
shorts...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7b7j3d$c39$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Poem submitted by a student (high school) to teacher as own work. Looking
for
>someone who can identify the real author. Does anybody recognize this?
>
>The teacher has been looking for a source for over a week now--all I can
>guess is that it's a 1917-1930 piece, possibly by an African American
author.
> Can any of those great minds out there help?
If no one else can identify the author, I would be willing to claim credit
:)
I don't think it could have been written in that era you say though - I
don't think the people of teh time could culturally accept the idea of a
WW2. I reckon on it being original.
---
Fabian
Do colourless green ideas sleep furiously?
Richard Fontana
> If no one else can identify the author, I would be willing to claim credit
> :)
>
> I don't think it could have been written in that era you say though - I
> don't think the people of teh time could culturally accept the idea of a
> WW2. I reckon on it being original.
But why would a contemporary poet speak of World War 2 as a possible
future event? The narrator of the poem at least is situated in the period
between 1918 and 1939 and identifies with the "lost generation".
RF
Robert Bryan Lipton
Richard Fontana wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Fabian wrote:
>
>> A modern contemporary poet may want to imagine himself to be living in
that
>> time in order to write from a historic perspective. Poetic licence, as it
>> were.
>>
>> The most obvious lost generation of the time would have been the result
of
>> the economic crises in the 20s and 30s. Despite teh recessions and ww1,
the
>> was a general feeling in teh air at teh time that such a terrible war
could
>> never happen again, as 'mankind has learnt its lesson'.
>>
>> And other stuff like that.
>
>True. As I recall the poem referred to "World War II"; I wonder when the
>earliest use of "World War II" occurred.
Accoridng to a friend of mine, it is in the Czech book, THE GOOD SOLDIER
SHVEJK
Bob
Richard Fontana
> A modern contemporary poet may want to imagine himself to be living in that
> time in order to write from a historic perspective. Poetic licence, as it
> were.
>
> The most obvious lost generation of the time would have been the result of
> the economic crises in the 20s and 30s. Despite teh recessions and ww1, the
> was a general feeling in teh air at teh time that such a terrible war could
> never happen again, as 'mankind has learnt its lesson'.
>
> And other stuff like that.
True. As I recall the poem referred to "World War II"; I wonder when the
earliest use of "World War II" occurred.
RF
Lindsay Endell
>
> Richard Fontana wrote in message ...
> A modern contemporary poet may want to imagine himself to be living in that
> time in order to write from a historic perspective. Poetic licence, as it
> were.
>
> The most obvious lost generation of the time would have been the result of
> the economic crises in the 20s and 30s. Despite teh recessions and ww1, the
> was a general feeling in teh air at teh time that such a terrible war could
> never happen again, as 'mankind has learnt its lesson'.
>
> And other stuff like that.
>
Including that until at least the outbreak of WWI, WWI was referred to
as The Great War. So a writer in the 30s or before would not have a
WWII to think of, because there was no reference by people to WWI
until after WWII.
I'm rambling...
Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/ - Issue 2.0 available now
In AUE all Englishes are equal, though each is more
equal than all the others. Bob Lieblich, aue
Richard Fontana
(quotations from previous posts snipped, but I am keeping this:)
> >> >>This is the first half of the poem:
> >> >>
> >> >>TIME
> >> >> There is talk among us all, but seldom talk of death.
> >> >> Those who oppose, and those who are in agreement with,
> >> >> And I who populate one third of your world, my voice will
> >> >> not be heard,
> >> >> I am continually criticized and categorized,
> >> >> But I must create my own humble abode in the future.
> >> >> And yet, the pace at which this cock-eyed world goes, no
> >> >> future will come.
> >> >> If they get careless, what will be left.
> >> >> But today you are planning what should be mine to
> >> >> rightfully plan for tomorrow.
> >> >> Each generation makes its own mistake; will ours be World
> >> >> War II?
> >> >> They say nothing can exist without the sun,
> >> >> so, why can’t we learn from our mistakes?
> >> >> Killing! Endless destruction all caused by war...
> >> >> A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power and yet
> >> >> accomplishing almost nothing.
> >> >> If we go to war again, it will affect me, the lost
> >> >> generation.
>
> Looking *forward* to "a war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying
> power"? (Of course, all readers of a.u.e know that "unleashed by"
> refers to the war itself, not its end. Would a high school student
> who has not written particularly well in the past avoid sloppy writing
> in referring to the atom bomb this way?)
I didn't think this referred to the atom bomb. Unless the "II" is a typo
by either the original poster or the putative author, I interpret the "war
that ended" to be World War I.
(snip)
> The phrase "lost generation" doesn't always mean what Gertrude Stein
> meant when she coined it, either. I just did a quick Web search that
> turned up a host of uses of "lost generation" applied to contemporary
> youth. I suppose you could make a case that it's "incorrect" to use
> the phrase in this way, but -- well, what do you expect from a student
> who has never been a stickler for correctness in the past?
But the narrator of the poem is not speaking of today's younger
generation. The narrator is speaking of the period after World War I.
I don't really care about the authenticity issue. I am curious about the
usage of "World War II" in a poem that to me, and to the original poster,
appears to describe conditions that existed after World War I but before
World War II. If the phrase "World War II" was unknown prior to the
beginning of World War II, this suggests that the poet wrote the poem
sometime after World War II had begun, but was trying to imagine the
viewpoint of a young person during the period between the wars. That
makes it possible that the poem is original, but it could also have been
copied.
Perhaps the original poster could clarify (or could ask the student)
whether "World War II" is a typo for "World War III".
RF
Fabian
Richard Fontana wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Fabian wrote:
>
>> If no one else can identify the author, I would be willing to claim
credit
>> :)
>>
>> I don't think it could have been written in that era you say though - I
>> don't think the people of teh time could culturally accept the idea of a
>> WW2. I reckon on it being original.
>
>But why would a contemporary poet speak of World War 2 as a possible
>future event? The narrator of the poem at least is situated in the period
>between 1918 and 1939 and identifies with the "lost generation".
A modern contemporary poet may want to imagine himself to be living in that
time in order to write from a historic perspective. Poetic licence, as it
were.
The most obvious lost generation of the time would have been the result of
the economic crises in the 20s and 30s. Despite teh recessions and ww1, the
was a general feeling in teh air at teh time that such a terrible war could
never happen again, as 'mankind has learnt its lesson'.
And other stuff like that.
---
Fabian
honjitsu watashi wa genki desu ashita kami ga kimeru
shorts...@my-dejanews.com
ge...@got.net (Winston Smith) wrote:
> On 27 Feb 1999 04:44:33 GMT, rush...@aol.com (Rushtown) wrote:
>
> >>Subject: Looking for author source of plagiarized piece
> >>From: shorts...@my-dejanews.com
> >>Date: 2/26/99 5:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>Message-id: <7b7j3d$c39$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> >>
> >>for
> >>someone who can identify the real author. Does anybody recognize this?
> >>
> >>The teacher has been looking for a source for over a week now--all I can
> >>guess is that it's a 1917-1930 piece, possibly by an African American
author.
> >> Can any of those great minds out there help?
> >>
> >>
> >>TIME
> >> There is talk among us all, but seldom talk of death.
> >> Those who oppose, and those who are in agreement with,
> >> And I who populate one third of your world, my voice will
> >> not be heard,
> >> I am continually criticized and categorized,
> >> But I must create my own humble abode in the future.
> >> And yet, the pace at which this cock-eyed world goes, no
> >> future will come.
> >> If they get careless, what will be left.
> >> But today you are planning what should be mine to
> >> rightfully plan for tomorrow.
> >> Each generation makes its own mistake; will ours be World
> >> War II?
> >> They say nothing can exist without the sun,
> >> so, why can’t we learn from our mistakes?
> >> Killing! Endless destruction all caused by war...
> >> A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power and yet
> >> accomplishing almost nothing.
> >> If we go to war again, it will affect me, the lost
> >> generation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Shortstrokes
> >
> >This is original. It is not plagiarized. You
> >shouldn't be so suspicious or jealous of your students so as to be looking
> >forward t humiliating an
> >obviously talented student.
> If I may be so bold...To add to the above. As a student many years
> ago, I worked hard and long on a poem to be delivered before a class
> and teacher I loved DEARLY. To my dismay I was belittled before that
> class by that teacher for PLAGIARISM.I was crushed. I never put forth
> in the class any more effort. I saw no point in doing so.
I agree. That's why the teacher is looking for a source. I too find it more
than doubtful that this was written by a high school/jr. high school
students, especially with the references to the "lost generation" and a
looking forward to WWII.
The teacher is sensitive to the possibility of "stifling" the child. Probably
most of us here have had the experience of a teacher saying "Did you write
this?"
As I recall, the teacher said the student doesn't generally produce anything
worthwhile or similar to this. I think he has enough reason to be
suspiciious and am looking only for a source, not to debate about a student
none of us have met.
Thanks.
Gwen Lenker
[Intermediate discussion snipped]
>I agree. That's why the teacher is looking for a source. I too find it more
>than doubtful that this was written by a high school/jr. high school
>students, especially with the references to the "lost generation" and a
>looking forward to WWII.
Looking *forward* to "a war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying
power"? (Of course, all readers of a.u.e know that "unleashed by"
refers to the war itself, not its end. Would a high school student
who has not written particularly well in the past avoid sloppy writing
in referring to the atom bomb this way?)
Look at the lines:
>> >> And I who populate one third of your world, my voice will
>> >> not be heard,
>> >> I am continually criticized and categorized,
>> >> But I must create my own humble abode in the future.
That's a typical teenage whine if ever I saw one (and I wrote quite a
few in my day, too). The "third of your world" could easily refer to
the *young* -- the other two thirds being the middle aged (25-35) and
the old. (Don't tell me the statistics don't support that statement;
I refuse to believe that a poor student checked the statistics.)
The phrase "lost generation" doesn't always mean what Gertrude Stein
meant when she coined it, either. I just did a quick Web search that
turned up a host of uses of "lost generation" applied to contemporary
youth. I suppose you could make a case that it's "incorrect" to use
the phrase in this way, but -- well, what do you expect from a student
who has never been a stickler for correctness in the past?
I agree with you that the teacher has a right to be suspicious when a
student who doesn't usually produce anything "worthwhile" suddenly
hands in a halfway decent piece of work -- including a correct use of
the semicolon -- especially if the student appears to have *tried* in
the past. But this poem, in my humble opinion, displays a lot of
indications that it was by *a* high-school student. Someone too young
to vote, at any rate. ("Today you are planning what should be mine to
rightfully plan for tomorrow.")
If it really means what I think it means, the poem is very badly
written -- which ought to work in the kid's favor.
Mark Brader
> as The Great War.
But also as the World War.
> So a writer in the 30s or before would not have a WWII to think of,
> because there was no reference by people to WWI until after WWII.
Just as nobody has ever referred to World War III yet?
* Manchester Guardian, 1919-02-18, page 10. "World War No. 2".
* H.G. Wells, 1930, "The Autocracy of Mr. Parham", title of book 4:
"The Second World War".
These are, however, the only two pre-1939 citations in the OED Supplement
for either phrase.
--
Mark Brader "I can direct dial today a man my parents warred with.
Toronto They wanted to kill him, I want to sell software to him."
msbr...@interlog.com -- Brad Templeton
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> future event? The narrator of the poem at least is situated in the period
> between 1918 and 1939 and identifies with the "lost generation".
The passage reads:
| Each generation makes its own mistake; will ours be World
| War II?
| They say nothing can exist without the sun,
| so, why can't we learn from our mistakes?
| Killing! Endless destruction all caused by war...
| A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power and yet
| accomplishing almost nothing.
| If we go to war again, it will affect me, the lost
| generation.
So far people seem to feel that this was written either in the
inter-war period or legitimately by the student.
Parts of it, however, suggest that it was actually written in 1945 or
just after, in the US.
(But alternatively, it could be that the student wanted to make it
*sound* as though it was written decades earlier. Maybe the seeming
inconsistencies are because they did a lousy job of it.)
After the war ended and for some time afterwards, the popular feeling
(I hear -- I wasn't born yet) in the US was exultation over the fact
that it had been won. Atom bombs? Great idea -- they make us all
the stronger!
The writer is begging to disagree, suggesting that the war caused
"endless destruction ... accomplishing almost nothing", and that
eventually people *will judge* with hindsight that it was "our
generation's mistake". That's what the future tense is for.
It's the "accomplishing almost nothing" that leads me to suggest a
US origin. If the primary accomplishment of the war was the elimination
of the Nazis, an American would be more likely to feel that that was
nothing than a European.
The part about "A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power"
could be taken as an inexact reference to a war *whose end* unleashed
a terrifying power. That would certainly apply to WW2 and *not* to
WW1 -- but only if written after the atomic bombs had gone off. And
"if we go to war again", it'll be an atomic war and all the more to
be feared.
--
Mark Brader | "Without nuclear weapons we will be nothing
Toronto | more than a rich, powerful Canada...."
msbr...@interlog.com | -- A Walk in the Woods, by Lee Blessing
Lindsay Endell
> > ... at least the outbreak of WWI, WWI was referred to
> > as The Great War.
>
> But also as the World War.
>
> > So a writer in the 30s or before would not have a WWII to think of,
> > because there was no reference by people to WWI until after WWII.
>
> Just as nobody has ever referred to World War III yet?
I said I was rambling, honest. However, I think that once one has
started counting things, like wars, it's easy to talk about the
putative next one. War n+1. I just felt it *less* likely when the
majority of references between the wars were to the Great War, the War
to End All Wars - people didn't want to think that another such
terrible event couls or should take place.
> * Manchester Guardian, 1919-02-18, page 10. "World War No. 2".
>
> * H.G. Wells, 1930, "The Autocracy of Mr. Parham", title of book 4:
> "The Second World War".
>
> These are, however, the only two pre-1939 citations in the OED Supplement
> for either phrase.
And one is literary. Not that that discounts it, but I'm sure there
must be a novel or manuscript out there all about the 4th World War (I
think Heinlein bases a lot of his stories after a 4th or 5th WW), and
we haven't had a 3rd yet.
God forfend we ever should.
Linz, my "reply-to" address really works
shorts...@my-dejanews.com
<Pine.GSO.3.95qL.99022...@bonjour.cc.columbia.edu>,
Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Gwen Lenker wrote:
>
> (quotations from previous posts snipped, but I am keeping this:)
> > >> >>This is the first half of the poem:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>TIME
> > >> >> There is talk among us all, but seldom talk of death.
> > >> >> Those who oppose, and those who are in agreement with,
> > >> >> And I who populate one third of your world, my voice will
> > >> >> not be heard,
> > >> >> I am continually criticized and categorized,
> > >> >> But I must create my own humble abode in the future.
> > >> >> And yet, the pace at which this cock-eyed world goes, no
> > >> >> future will come.
> > >> >> If they get careless, what will be left.
> > >> >> But today you are planning what should be mine to
> > >> >> rightfully plan for tomorrow.
> > >> >> Each generation makes its own mistake; will ours be World
> > >> >> War II?
> > >> >> They say nothing can exist without the sun,
> > >> >> so, why can=92t we learn from our mistakes?
> > >> >> Killing! Endless destruction all caused by war...
> > >> >> A war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying power and yet
> > >> >> accomplishing almost nothing.
> > >> >> If we go to war again, it will affect me, the lost
> > >> >> generation.
> >=20
> > Looking *forward* to "a war that ended, unleashed by a terrifying
> > power"? (Of course, all readers of a.u.e know that "unleashed by"
> > refers to the war itself, not its end. Would a high school student
> > who has not written particularly well in the past avoid sloppy writing
> > in referring to the atom bomb this way?)
>
> I didn't think this referred to the atom bomb. Unless the "II" is a typo
> by either the original poster or the putative author, I interpret the "war
> that ended" to be World War I.
>
> (snip)
> > The phrase "lost generation" doesn't always mean what Gertrude Stein
> > meant when she coined it, either. I just did a quick Web search that
> > turned up a host of uses of "lost generation" applied to contemporary
> > youth. I suppose you could make a case that it's "incorrect" to use
> > the phrase in this way, but -- well, what do you expect from a student
> > who has never been a stickler for correctness in the past?
>
> But the narrator of the poem is not speaking of today's younger
> generation. The narrator is speaking of the period after World War I.
>
> I don't really care about the authenticity issue. I am curious about the
> usage of "World War II" in a poem that to me, and to the original poster,
> appears to describe conditions that existed after World War I but before
> World War II. If the phrase "World War II" was unknown prior to the
> beginning of World War II, this suggests that the poet wrote the poem
> sometime after World War II had begun, but was trying to imagine the
> viewpoint of a young person during the period between the wars. That
> makes it possible that the poem is original, but it could also have been
> copied.
>
> Perhaps the original poster could clarify (or could ask the student)
> whether "World War II" is a typo for "World War III".
>
> RF
>
Now that I've thought further--after reading the comments up to this point, I
no longer think this can be placed in 1918-1939 time period, but post WWII.
I still can't buy that a h.s./jr h.s. student (currently in classes in the US
today) wrote that he/she felt that WWII was his/her generation's mistake. If
the student were in an AP class or even had produced something resemblig
standard english usage before, I don't think the teacher would have suspected
it as plagiarism. It may be drivel and over the top emotionalism but is was
not characteristic of the student's previous work; that's all I can know.
If you've taught English at the community college level, you might well
discount the possibility of any h.s. student writing anything even
approximating this, but for those who see harshness toward the capabilities
of students in general, I certainly would not discount the possibility that
"a" high school student wrote this, but I think that it was questionable that
this particular student wrote it, and a teacher's gut feeling in this
direction is usually right on. It's frustrating not to pinpoint the source
when you get the feeling.
It has at least provided an interesting discussion and revised the time
period i which my search is taking me.
--Shortstrokes
T Bruce Tober
a.edu>, Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> writes
>
>True. As I recall the poem referred to "World War II"; I wonder when the
>earliest use of "World War II" occurred.
According to the OED II,
"1919 Manch. Guardian 18 Feb. 10/2 (heading) World War No 2.
"1939 Time 11 Sept. 38/1 Some of the diplomatic juggling which last week
ended in World War II was old-fashioned international jockeying for
power.
"Ibid. 18 Sept. 10/2 Exports of arms, munitions and related materials in
World War I amounted..to only 25% of total exports to the Allies.
"1945 Duke of Bedford Let. 16 Apr. in B. Russell Autobiogr. (1969) III.
i. 44 You will have to postpone your visit until the brief interlude
between this war & world-war no 3."
tbt
--
| Bruce Tober, <octob...@reporters.net>, <http://www.crecon.demon.co.uk> |
| Birmingham, UK, EU +44-121-242-3832 (mobile - 07979-521-106). Freelance |
|Journalist & Website consultancy and development. PGP details at my website|
| *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* |
| My New Domain will be online very soon at <http://www.star-dot-star.co.uk>|
T Bruce Tober
<go...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>Including that until at least the outbreak of WWI, WWI was referred to
>as The Great War. So a writer in the 30s or before would not have a
>WWII to think of, because there was no reference by people to WWI
>until after WWII.
That's the commonly accepted wisdom, but according to the OED II, the
first mention of WWII that it lists is 1919. See my response to Fabian
in this thread for the exact quotes.