On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:37:53 GMT, "Maria" <marian....@sbcglobal.net> wrought:
>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic accident:
>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes of >the six-lane expressway."
>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my >aue-trained attention.
That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
-- THE
"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries." -- Peter Moylan
>>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic >>accident:
>>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes >>of the six-lane expressway."
>>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my >>aue-trained attention.
> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in California lingo.
-- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it >would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in >California lingo.
>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>>Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, >>but it would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" >>in California lingo.
> Same thing in New York lingo also.
But you don't have freeways there.
-- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
> >>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic > >>accident:
> >>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes > >>of the six-lane expressway."
> >>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my > >>aue-trained attention.
> > That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
> Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it > would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in > California lingo.
Brian Wickham wrote: > On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:04:34 +0000 (UTC), dontbother ><dontbot...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>>Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it >>would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in >>California lingo.
> Same thing in New York lingo also.
Say what? New Yorkers don't speak of "freeways" except in reference to locations, far from New York, that call them thus (e.g. Los Angeles).
A native New Yorker might speak of "the six-lane highway" (at least if he's younger than Arjay) or "the six-lane expressway" (which might be too specific, but probably will do).
>> >>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic >> >>accident:
>> >>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes >> >>of the six-lane expressway."
>> >>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my >> >>aue-trained attention.
>> > That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>> Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it >> would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in >> California lingo.
>How about "both sides"?
Any Americans here done any road-building? I find it hard to believe that they don't have a proper word to designate the two strips of paving that are laid and only later divided into lanes with paint, commonly like thusliwise for a "six-lane freeway":
embankment ) verge ) hard shoulder ) inside lane ) Northbound carriageway middle lane ) outside lane ) kerb )
central reservation
kerb ) outside lane ) middle lane ) Southbound carriageway inside lane ) hard shoulder ) verge ) embankment )
(I know we've done "hard shoulder", "central reservations" and "verge" before, but I don't remember us dispensing with "carriageway".)
-- THE
"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries." -- Peter Moylan
>>>>> Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic >>>>> accident:
>>>>> [As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes >>>>> of the six-lane expressway."
Ross Howard:
>>>> That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
> Any Americans here done any road-building? I find it hard to believe > that they don't have a proper word to designate the two strips of > paving that are laid and only later divided into lanes ...
Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a switch, why not?
In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway", we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation) was "both the southbound lanes and the northbound lanes". Some cities, such as Toronto, have freeways with four roadways (carriageways), so: <http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/on/toronto/2002/toh2002_119.jpg>. With these roads we use terms like "westbound express lanes". -- Mark Brader, Toronto | "If you want a 20th century solution, the m...@vex.net | obvious answer is helicopters!" -- Bob Scheurle
>Maria Conlon: >>>>>> Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic >>>>>> accident:
>>>>>> [As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes >>>>>> of the six-lane expressway."
>In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway", >we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier >that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation) >was "both the southbound lanes and the northbound lanes". Some cities, >such as Toronto, have freeways with four roadways (carriageways), so: ><http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/on/toronto/2002/toh2002_119.jpg>. >With these roads we use terms like "westbound express lanes".
Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a smaller thing...a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given direction...it's like "day" meaning "twenty-four hours" as well as "the length of time the sun is up"; the only time it causes trouble is when someone asks how many days you spent on a project....
By the by, there was a filler piece in yesterday's paper about the average number of lanes, by state, on American highways...Alaska was lowest with 2.06 lanes, New Jersey was at the other extreme....r
-- "Screwing Type Gloomy - Giant Swing" --- Gloomy makes your world turn around! Watch out for this charming toy teddy-bear that amazes you with his agile walking skills through a special wind-up mechanism. Enjoy the joyful company of this active playing wonder right away!
R H Draney wrote: > By the by, there was a filler piece in yesterday's paper about the > average number of lanes, by state, on American highways...Alaska was > lowest with 2.06 lanes, New Jersey was at the other extreme....r
When I visited Buenos Aires about eight years ago, one of its main avenues claimed to have the most number of lanes of any road in the world. At what appeared to be its widest point I counted a total of 23 lanes, including 4 or so turning lanes.
I can't for the life of me remember the name of the road, unfortunately.
-- A. Gwilliam To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"
>> >>Heard this morning on a television newscast about a traffic >> >>accident:
>> >>[As you can see on your screen, traffic is tied up on] "both lanes >> >>of the six-lane expressway."
>> >>Yes, I knew what the newscaster meant, but it still caught my >> >>aue-trained attention.
>> > That would have been "both carriageways" in BrE. In AmE too?
>> Nah, they don't have carriages there, except for babes-in-arms, but it >> would've been "in both directions of the six-lane freeway" in >> California lingo.
>> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway", >> we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a modifier >> that applies to that group. What the newscaster meant (modulo rotation) >> was "both the southbound lanes and the northbound lanes"...
R.H. Draney:
> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a smaller > thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle can take, or the > entire set of courses running in a given direction...
No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway. -- Mark Brader, Toronto "I'd opt for Oz, myself." m...@vex.net --Buck Henry
> Mark Brader: >>> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means >>> "carriageway", we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we >>> use "lanes" with a modifier that applies to that group. What >>> the newscaster meant (modulo rotation) was "both the >>> southbound lanes and the northbound lanes"...
> R.H. Draney: >> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a >> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle >> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given >> direction...
> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either > correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the > southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred, there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right- turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
> When I visited Buenos Aires about eight years ago, one of its main > avenues claimed to have the most number of lanes of any road in the > world. At what appeared to be its widest point I counted a total of 23 > lanes, including 4 or so turning lanes.
Q: Which freeways have the most lanes at one point (not counting toll booths or ramps)?
A: In North America, Ontario Highway 401 ( http://members.aol.com/hwys/OntHwys/OntHwys401Hist.html ) in metro Toronto has 20 lanes between 4 roadways, and I-285 north of I-85 near Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson Airport has 18, also between 4 roadways. Two roads in South America often mentioned as widest in the world actually have fewer lanes: Avenida 9 de Julio (part of National Route 14) in Buenos Aires, Argentina, has 16 (photos: http://photobucket.com/albums/e100/jamessidney1/buenos%20aires/ ), and the Monumental Axis in Brasilia, Brazil, widest in the world from outer edge to outer edge, has 12 (most of the right-of-way is median). In the United States, I-75 north of the northern I-285 interchange in northern Atlanta has 16 lanes, 7 SB and 9 NB, for the most along 2 roadways; I-5 in downtown Seattle has 16 spread across 4 roadways (4 C/D + 4 mainline + 4 mainline + 4 C/D). ...
(As far as I can tell from some small maps I googled up, this is indeed part of Avenida 9 de Julio, though I can't confirm that *all* of the carriageways you see are part of it. Note that the exact wording of 12.3 is actually limited to freeways; if you pan south, Av. 9 de Julio apparently turns into one, but by then it has a lot less lanes.) -- Mark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net." m...@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett
> > Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a > > switch, why not?
Jonathan Morton:
> In technical railway parlance, there is such a word - it's "switch", as > in "S&C" for "switch and crossing" work.
Let's just say that if that was an established usage among British railway professionals, I would have expected to come across it.
> We don't need a singular word for "points", though, because (like pants) > they only come in sets.
Yeah. Our switch is your "set of points", just like your carriageway is our "set of lanes". -- Mark Brader "I always hoped that when someone quoted me Toronto it would be because I said something profound." m...@vex.net -- Chris Volpe
>>> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a >>> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle >>> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given >>> direction...
Mark Brader:
>> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either >> correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the >> southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
Dick Zantow:
> As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire > southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that > is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred, > there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right- > turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were > unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
I tried to find this in Google News, but without success. However, my searches turned up similar reports where "lane" was indeed used in the manner that R.H. and Dick describe. Thanks for the correction! Now I wonder if this is a regional usage or something, or if I just failed to become aware of it. -- Mark Brader | "It can be amusing, even if painful, to watch the Toronto | ethnocentrism of those who are convinced their m...@vex.net | local standards are universal." -- Tom Chapin
Mark Brader wrote: > A. Gwilliam: > > When I visited Buenos Aires about eight years ago, one of its main > > avenues claimed to have the most number of lanes of any road in the > > world. At what appeared to be its widest point I counted a total > > of 23 lanes, including 4 or so turning lanes.
> Q: Which freeways have the most lanes at one point (not counting toll > booths or ramps)?
> A: In North America, Ontario Highway 401 ( > http://members.aol.com/hwys/OntHwys/OntHwys401Hist.html ) in metro > Toronto has 20 lanes between 4 roadways, and I-285 north of I-85 > near Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson Airport has 18, also between > 4 roadways. Two roads in South America often mentioned as widest > in the world actually have fewer lanes: Avenida 9 de Julio (part > of National Route 14) in Buenos Aires, Argentina, has 16 (photos: > http://photobucket.com/albums/e100/jamessidney1/buenos%20aires/ ), > and the Monumental Axis in Brasilia, Brazil, widest in the world > from outer edge to outer edge, has 12 (most of the right-of-way is > median). In the United States, I-75 north of the northern I-285 > interchange in northern Atlanta has 16 lanes, 7 SB and 9 NB, for > the most along 2 roadways; I-5 in downtown Seattle has 16 spread > across 4 roadways (4 C/D + 4 mainline + 4 mainline + 4 C/D). ...
I'm not absolutely certain, but Av. 9 de Julio sounds right, and a look at a couple of other maps seems to fit in with my recollection. I do remember that part of the way down the road was the impressive monument to the national flag.
This is all from my sketchy memory, but the number of lanes fluctuated quite a bit along the avenue's length, both because the space for the road narrowed as it got close to the heart of the city, and because of the traffic management. The road wasn't simply a huge width of lanes, though; there were divisions between some of the lanes heading in the same direction, as well of course as a division between the northbound and southbound halves of the road. You can clearly see this in the Google Maps photo that you linked to above.
Incidentally, there were pavement cafes on both sidewalks!
I do have a truly lousy photo from about the widest part of the road; you can clearly count nine northbound lanes (although they are converging), plus perhaps one other lane by the sidewalk acting as either a turnoff or a sort of service lane, and at the very closest edge of the picture it appears that yet another lane is just coming to an end as it merges into one of the others. That would all tally with my recollection of 11 lanes in one direction. Funnily enough, you can only really see one car in the picture.
-- A. Gwilliam To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"
Mark Brader wrote: > R.H. Draney: >>>> Yes, it's a question of the same name for both a larger and a >>>> smaller thing... a "lane" is the course that a single vehicle >>>> can take, or the entire set of courses running in a given >>>> direction...
> Mark Brader: >>> No! At least, this is certainly not what I consider either >>> correct or common usage. If it was, one could speak of the >>> southbound "lane" to mean an entire carriageway.
> Dick Zantow: >> As indeed we do when it's appropriate. The other day, the entire >> southbound lane of US 29 was blocked by an overturned cement (that >> is, concrete) truck. At the point where the blockage occurred, >> there are two through lanes, one left-turn lane, and one right- >> turn lane, all southbound. The four northbound lanes were >> unaffected, so the northbound lane was unblocked.
> I tried to find this in Google News, but without success. However, > my searches turned up similar reports where "lane" was indeed used > in the manner that R.H. and Dick describe. Thanks for the correction! > Now I wonder if this is a regional usage or something, or if I just > failed to become aware of it.
My guess: regional. Here (near Detroit), we would say "all (or both)northbound lanes" to mean all (or both) lanes headed north rather than saying "the northbound lane" to mean all or both northbound lanes... _unless_ there is only one lane headed north. (The same usage applies to other directions, too. Have I covered all the bases?)
-- Maria Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
When the Buenos Aires thing came up in this thread, I forwarded it to Marc Fannin, who maintains the misc.transport.road FAQ list, and he had a comment on this point. Earlier I (Mark Brader) wrote:
> In Leftpondia if we really need a singular word that means "carriageway", > we get by with "roadway". For most purposes we use "lanes" with a > modifier...
Marc's comment was to cite an old thread from misc.transport.road, in which it is suggested that, among other things, that "carriageway" and "roadway" should have *distinct* meanings. (Note: there is a strong predominance of Americans among the newsgroup's participants.) Here's the thread:
In article <u6jOg.776$Ij...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, marian.c- b...@sbcglobal.net says...
> My guess: regional. Here (near Detroit), we would say "all (or > both)northbound lanes" to mean all (or both) lanes headed north rather > than saying "the northbound lane" to mean all or both northbound > lanes... _unless_ there is only one lane headed north. (The same usage > applies to other directions, too. Have I covered all the bases?)
UK usage agrees with yours - a "lane" is one car wide. The news often tells how how many, or which, lanes are blocked. But there is an all- inclusive plural of "lane" which is "carrigeway". That is, all of the lanes going in one direction of a limited access road are together described as a carriageway. So, "the northbound carriageway is blocked" is bad news", but "a northbound lane is blocked" is less serious". "Both carriageways of the M6 are blocked" is very significant.
"limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English though. We call it a "dual carriageway".
> In article <u6jOg.776$Ij...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, > marian.c- b...@sbcglobal.net says...
>> My guess: regional. Here (near Detroit), we would say "all >> (or both)northbound lanes" to mean all (or both) lanes headed >> north rather than saying "the northbound lane" to mean all or >> both northbound lanes... _unless_ there is only one lane >> headed north. (The same usage applies to other directions, >> too. Have I covered all the bases?)
> UK usage agrees with yours - a "lane" is one car wide. The > news often tells how how many, or which, lanes are blocked. > But there is an all- inclusive plural of "lane" which is > "carrigeway". That is, all of the lanes going in one > direction of a limited access road are together described as a > carriageway. So, "the northbound carriageway is blocked" is > bad news", but "a northbound lane is blocked" is less > serious". "Both carriageways of the M6 are blocked" is very > significant.
> "limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English > though. We call it a "dual carriageway".
Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual- carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
-- Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Mark Brader wrote: > Hey, if British railways can get by without a singular word for a > switch, why not?
Turnout is used quite a lot. Generically, this type of track hardware is called "switch and crossing work" in Britain. Rail workers often abbreviate this to "s and c".
In article <Xns983F71B6C26A0whhv...@62.253.170.163>, harvey.n...@ntlworld.com says...
> On 15 Sep 2006, the Omrud wrote
> > "limited access road" is not a normal term in UK English > > though. We call it a "dual carriageway".
> Those aren't really the correct comparitive terms, as a UK dual- > carriageway isn't by definition a "limited access" road: the > latter implies grade-separated intersections/interchanges.
Yes, you are right. All limited-access roads are dual carriageways but not all dual carriageways are limited access roads.
> A UK "dual carriageway" is what I grew up in Canada calling a > "divided highway", not a "limited access" road.
I'm not familiar with "divided highway". Is it North American regional, or is it only Canadian?
