'Sincerely' used for people you've met?
DJ
I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
the following:
[quote]
'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
[end quote]
I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
observed or heard of it?
Thanks,
--
DJ
(*1) I also looked up my "Practical English Usage", 3rd edition. Swan
didn't mention anything like that.
Ian Jackson
>Hi,
>
>I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
>the following:
>
>[quote]
>'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>[end quote]
>
>I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
>anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
>observed or heard of it?
>
>Thanks,
>
ends with "(Yours) faithfully". If it starts "Dear Mr Smith", its "Yours
sincerely".
--
Ian
Yendrick
> Hi,
>
> I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
> the following:
>
> [quote]
> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
> [end quote]
>
> I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
> anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
> observed or heard of it?
>
In the US, "Sincerely" can be used with both people we know and those
we don't. "Faithfully" is much less common, and to be honest, I don't
think I have ever used it myself, although other people may use it.
I have heard the rule you mention, but it applies, or at least
applied, only to British English. I don't know how current it is.
Yendrick
James Hogg
>Hi,
>
>I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
>the following:
>
>[quote]
>'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>[end quote]
>
>I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
>anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
>observed or heard of it?
My Chambers Office Oracle has the following general rule:
'Dear Sir(s)/Madam' followed by 'Yours faithfully'.
'Dear Miss, Mrs, Ms or Mr' followed by 'Yours sincerely'.
That's not exactly the same as the rule your Someone said, but
the common feature of both principles is that "faithfully" is
more formal or distant than "sincerely".
I wonder how many people are upset by the "incorrect"
complimentary close.
Question for Athel: Do the French still find it impossible to
reduce this to less than 30 words?
James
(BrE with a distinctly septentrional flavour)
James Silverton
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter.
>> Someone said the following:
>>
>> [quote]
>> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>> [end quote]
>>
>> I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and
>> couldn't find anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering
>> if any of you ever observed or heard of it?
> My Chambers Office Oracle has the following general rule:
> 'Dear Sir(s)/Madam' followed by 'Yours faithfully'.
> 'Dear Miss, Mrs, Ms or Mr' followed by 'Yours sincerely'.
> That's not exactly the same as the rule your Someone said, but
> the common feature of both principles is that "faithfully" is
> more formal or distant than "sincerely".
> I wonder how many people are upset by the "incorrect"
> complimentary close.
> Question for Athel: Do the French still find it impossible to
> reduce this to less than 30 words?
Ronald Searle has illustrated many ways of "Signing off" including
"Yours in haste", "Your most obedient servant", "Your loving son",
"Yours ever", "Yours sincerely" and "Cordially yours". They are in "The
Penguin Ronald Searle" if you can find a copy.
I have been trying without success to find the person who said it was
his ambition to terminate a letter to the British Inland Revenue with
"You remain Sir,
My most humble and obedient servant".
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
sjde...@yahoo.com
> On Feb 19, 7:53 pm, DJ <nos...@no.no> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
> > the following:
>
> > [quote]
> > 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
> > For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
> > [end quote]
>
> > I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
> > anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
> > observed or heard of it?
>
> In the US, "Sincerely" can be used with both people we know and those
> we don't. "Faithfully" is much less common, and to be honest, I don't
> think I have ever used it myself, although other people may use it.
It does seem odd in AmE, especially odd for use in a formal letter
where the recipient is not well known.
Prior to reading this thread, I would have thought it might be used by
a somewhat uptight spouse of the recipient, or perhaps a parishioner
(or, in older times, a vassal).
HVS
> Hi,
>
> I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter.
> Someone said the following:
>
> [quote]
> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
> [end quote]
>
> I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't
> find anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of
> you ever observed or heard of it?
As stated elsethread, the usage in BrE -- which is still current
practice in business letters -- is "Yours sincerely" if the opening
salutation is addressed to a named person, and "Yours faithfully" if
it's to "Dear Sir" or "Dear Madam".
That is, the difference isn't whether you've *met* the person -- it's
whether the "Dear [X]" is to a named person or to "Sir/Madam".
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
the Omrud
> Question for Athel: Do the French still find it impossible to
> reduce this to less than 30 words?
OK, I'm not Athel but I do have properties in France and have plenty to
do with French banks, Notaries and the like. Yes, they are still florid.
Two taken at random from the pile of paperwork waiting to be filed:
From the bank where we have a mortgage:
- Nous vous prions d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de nos salutations
distinguées.
From EDF, confirming an order to dig up the road and lay a mains cable:
- Je vous prie d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes sincères salutations.
Hmmm, a pattern. I hadn't bothered noting them in detail before.
--
David
Glenn Knickerbocker
> the common feature of both principles is that "faithfully" is
> more formal or distant than "sincerely".
From my American viewpoint, "faithfully" seems servile and
ingratiating. I'd be looking behind me for a nose to brush away.
"Sincerely" seems fine to me for just about any situation.
ŹR
Paul Wolff
with "vos avoués" (I think) before the signature block. Seemed a bit
like "Yours faithfully". The principal was a bit of an Anglophile,
though.
--
Paul
Paul Wolff
formula for showing respect to someone you don't know from Adam, and
probably a corporate someone at that, then notions of fidelity fly out
the window, and you just rattle it off as the correct, acceptable and
easy solution to the problem of how to end the letter, while preserving
everyone's dignity. Press the 'end letter' macro key, and move on, is
how it works.
--
Paul
Frances Kemmish
>
> Ronald Searle has illustrated many ways of "Signing off" including
> "Yours in haste", "Your most obedient servant", "Your loving son",
> "Yours ever", "Yours sincerely" and "Cordially yours". They are in "The
> Penguin Ronald Searle" if you can find a copy.
>
There was a sketch on "That Was The Week That Was", where Lance Percival
and Roy Kinnear are trying to implement a Civil Service directive to
make official correspondence more acceptable.
They begin by scrapping "Dear...", and go on to deal with closings.
Their reaction to "your obedient servant" is "Are you mad?"
I tried to find a Youtube clip of it, but I suppose TW3 was just too
long ago.
Fran
Eric Walker
[...]
> I can understand that. But if you've been taught that it is just a formula . . . .
That is the essence: it is formulaic. Formulaic conventions often do
not correspond to what common sense suggests; consider that "Dear X"
is essentially neutral, whereas "My Dear X", which I reckon would
sound to most rather more cordial, is instead quite frosty.
tony cooper
It is not at all unusual to see a letter that starts out "Dear Sirs"
and ends with "Sincerely Yours" and contains something between those
two lines like "You are bunch of fucking idiots and I will never do
business with your company again".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
sjde...@yahoo.com
Whoa what? "Dear X" is formulaic AmE for almost any letter. "My Dear
X" is something I'd limit to a love letter, not frosty at all.
Personally I dislike the "Dear X" formula, and usually go with "To Mr
X" if it's not someone dear to me. "Sincerely" and "Cordially' are my
most common sign-offs for impersonal letters.
Don Aitken
Much too long - even before videotape. That sketch was inspired by the
Vassall/Galbraith case of 1962/3. Vassall was a civil servant who was
convicted of spying for the Russians (he had been lured to a
homosexual rendezvous in Moscow and photographed). The heat then
turned on Galbraith, the junior minister whose Private Secretary he
had been.
For weeks the press was full of letters on the topic of whether a
minister should write to his civil servant as "Dear Vassall" or just
"Vassall", or, most incriminating of all "My Dear Vassall". Galbraith
resigned; the matter was later investigated by a tribunal, which
decided that he had done nothing wrong, and he was given another
(slightly more senior) job.
The fallout from this had a substantial effect on the Profumo affair,
shortly after, since it convinced Macmillan that he should not allow
the press to panic him into asking for any more ministerial
resigations. It also enabled a couple of journalists who had
fabricated stories about Galbraith to pose as martyrs for press
freedom - they refused to answer questions about their nonexistent
sources, and were sent to prison, thus poisoning relations between the
government and the press.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Athel Cornish-Bowden
>
>
> Question for Athel: Do the French still find it impossible to
> reduce this to less than 30 words?
Before we came here 20 years ago I thought that the long formulaic
endings to letters in France were obsolescent, if not obsolete, but I
was quite wrong. At that time they were definitely alive and well, and
I defined an automatically expanding abbreviation for my computer that
would (and still does) produce
Veuillez accepter, Monsieur, l’expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs,
if I typed "veuil". By French standards this was considered a bit cold
and terse, but acceptable from un Anglosaxon.
At around that time my wife had an appointment with a senior person,
and when she arrived he was just finishing dictating a letter that ended
Je vous prie, mon cher collègue et ami, d'accepter l'expression de mon
plus profond respect
At which point he said to my wife "Sorry to keep you waiting, but I had
to get off a letter to that fool of a dean." He didn't show any
indication of noticing any incongruity.
This sort of ending is by no means obsolete today. On the news this
morning there was an image of a letter that is featuring in some
current scandal. It wasn't possible to read the whole of the ending,
but one could see that it was handwritten, that it went on for two
lines, and that it started "Je vous prie de bien vouloir ...".
Nonetheless, under the influence of mél (or couriel, if you're in
Quebec), the practice appears to be decreasing. People only rarely
write letters any more, and emails tend to end "Cordialement" if they
are more or less formal or official, "Amitiés" if they are more
friendly, or even "Bisous" to people you know very well.
James Hogg
Thanks for that.
James
the Omrud
> Nonetheless, under the influence of mél (or couriel, if you're in
> Quebec), the practice appears to be decreasing. People only rarely write
> letters any more, and emails tend to end "Cordialement" if they are more
> or less formal or official, "Amitiés" if they are more friendly, or even
> "Bisous" to people you know very well.
"couriel" seems to be the most common form amongst the older folk in the
Limousin. I've not encountered "mél"; I was confused for a short time
by signs everywhere advertising one of the main products of Limoges,
which is "émail". I had to look it up although it should have been obvious.
--
David
Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think "couriel" was invented by the Canadians a few years ago because
they thought "email" too English, and "mél" too horrible by any
standards. It's not English and doesn't look French, and, indeed, when
French people say it it doesn't sound French either (doubtless when
people like me say it it sounds even less French). I never remember
which is which of dark l and clear l, but whatever sort of l we put at
the end of "email" they don't have it in French and try to put the
other sort of l, which can't easily be said as the last sound of a word
after an é. I think initially they tried to pronounce "mail" as a
French word but didn't like a spelling that evoked "émail" (which, as
you noted, is a perfectly good French word already, meaning enamel)
when the pronunciation was totally different -- I think only the m is
common to the two pronunciations.
Anyway, "courier électronique", "couriel", "mél" and "email" (without
accent, and pronounced as well as a French speaker can manage to mimic
the English) are all used, but "couriel" is slowly gaining ground and
"mél" may be losing ground; "courier électronique" is mainly likely to
be found in official documents.
I'm not surprised to know that "couriel" is more popular in the
Limousin than it is here, because people there would be very consciouys
of the possibility of confusion with "émail".
More or less irrelevant, and certainly OT, but is there a tradition
among British yachtswomen that they need to be fluent in French? I was
impressed with Ellen MacArthur's French a few years ago, and now I find
that Samantha Davies speaks very well in French as well.
--
athel
Isabelle Cecchini
> On 2009-02-20 10:15:44 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com>
> said:
>> "couriel"
[...]
> I think "couriel"
[...]
"Courriel", no?
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> said:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2009-02-20 10:15:44 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> said:
> [...]
>>> "couriel"
> [...]
>> I think "couriel"
> [...]
>
> "Courriel", no?
Yes. It's one of the words I never know how to spell, and I was too
lazy to look it up.
What is your impression of the relative frequency of "mél", "courriel",
"courrier électronique" and "email"?
--
athel
Frances Kemmish
I don't remember too much about Vassall: only the name, really. I was
only 12 or 13 at the time, so I wasn't paying much attention. I remember
the Profumo affair much better - mostly because of hearing a lot of bad
jokes at school.
I did eventually find a couple of youtube clips - both of Millicent
Martin singing. I had forgotten how sharp some of the satire was.
Fran
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> [ ... ]
> The fallout from this had a substantial effect on the Profumo affair,
> shortly after, since it convinced Macmillan that he should not allow
> the press to panic him into asking for any more ministerial
> resigations. It also enabled a couple of journalists who had
> fabricated stories about Galbraith to pose as martyrs for press
> freedom - they refused to answer questions about their nonexistent
> sources, and were sent to prison, thus poisoning relations between the
> government and the press.
I remember their going to prison, but I didn't know that their sources
were nonexistent. Has that been established?
--
athel
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone
>> said the following:
>>
>> [quote]
>> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>> [end quote]
>>
>> I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
>> anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
>> observed or heard of it?
> My understanding is the if the letter starts "Dear Sir (or Madam)", it
> ends with "(Yours) faithfully". If it starts "Dear Mr Smith", its "Yours
> sincerely".
What happened to "Yours truly" or "Very truly yours"?
Perce
Ian Jackson
<nob...@notmyISP.invalid> writes
you know quite well, and with whom you are on reasonably friendly terms.
--
Ian
Don Aitken
It was certainly generally assumed at the time, and Private Eye said
so in so many words, but I don't think either of them subsequently
said anything about it, although it was quickly established that what
they said was entirely untrue.
Mike Lyle
> the Omrud <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote
[...]
>>
>> Two taken at random from the pile of paperwork waiting to be filed:
>>
>> From the bank where we have a mortgage:
>>
>> - Nous vous prions d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de nos
>> salutations distinguées.
>>
>> From EDF, confirming an order to dig up the road and lay a mains
>> cable: - Je vous prie d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes
>> sincères
>> salutations. Hmmm, a pattern. I hadn't bothered noting them in
>> detail before.
>>
> I used to receive letters from a French firm which ended fairly simply
> with "vos avoués" (I think) before the signature block. Seemed a bit
> like "Yours faithfully". The principal was a bit of an Anglophile,
> though.
No sentiments the most distinguished, then?
--
Mike.
the Omrud
> More or less irrelevant, and certainly OT, but is there a tradition
> among British yachtswomen that they need to be fluent in French? I was
> impressed with Ellen MacArthur's French a few years ago, and now I find
> that Samantha Davies speaks very well in French as well.
They always seem to be sponsored by French companies, and draw huge
crowds in France when they return, so perhaps they naturally have to
spend some time there.
--
David
the Omrud
> Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2009-02-20 10:15:44 +0100, the Omrud
>> <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> said:
> [...]
>>> "couriel"
> [...]
>> I think "couriel"
> [...]
>
> "Courriel", no?
Ah, I've never seen it written down.
--
David
Robert Bannister
But is a letter signed "sincerely" written in good faith?
--
Rob Bannister
Cece
"Dear" v. "My dear" -- sides of the pond.
Cece
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:53:22 -0500, DJ <nos...@no.no> wrote:
> >Hi,
>
> >I have a question about using "Sincerely" to end a letter. Someone said
> >the following:
>
> >[quote]
> >'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
> >For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
> >[end quote]
>
> >I searched(*1) past AUE posts regarding this topic and couldn't find
> >anything close to this claim, so I'm wondering if any of you ever
> >observed or heard of it?
>
>
> 'Dear Sir(s)/Madam' followed by 'Yours faithfully'.
> 'Dear Miss, Mrs, Ms or Mr' followed by 'Yours sincerely'.
>
> That's not exactly the same as the rule your Someone said, but
> the common feature of both principles is that "faithfully" is
> more formal or distant than "sincerely".
>
> complimentary close.
>
> Question for Athel: Do the French still find it impossible to
> reduce this to less than 30 words?
>
> (BrE with a distinctly septentrional flavour)
The first time I received a letter from France, I spent quite a while
with the bilingual dictionary translating a whole paragraph that
boiled down to "Sincerely."
Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria? An initial inquiry from
an individual to a company in America -- reads as if letter-writing
was taught by Margaret Paston. On limited-in-size air-mail
stationery, the first half the of letter asks after the weather and
the health of the recipient and assures the recipient that the writer
is feeling fine and enjoying the beautiful weather where he is.
DJ
Thank you all!
---------
Yendrick wrote:
> On Feb 19, 7:53 pm, DJ <nos...@no.no> wrote:
....
<snipped>
....
>>
>> [quote]
>> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>> [end quote]
....
<snipped>
....
>
> I have heard the rule you mention, but it applies, or at least
> applied, only to British English. I don't know how current it is.
So it does exist(, or did). Judging from the replies, I think it's safe
to say it's not current.
Thanks!
--
DJ
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
R H Draney
That just means it's lacking the traditional wax seal....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Adam Funk
> The first time I received a letter from France, I spent quite a while
> with the bilingual dictionary translating a whole paragraph that
> boiled down to "Sincerely."
>
> Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
--
Leila: "I don't think he knows."
Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage."
Leila: "What if he's innocent?"
Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984)
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:14:47 +0000:
> On 2009-02-20, Cece wrote:
>
> > The first time I received a letter from France, I spent quite a while
> > with the bilingual dictionary translating a whole paragraph that
> > boiled down to "Sincerely."
> >
> > Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
>
> No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
I actually had a through-the-post mail once, from their agency in Spain.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> What is your impression of the relative frequency of "mél", "courriel",
> "courrier électronique" and "email"?
"Email/E-mail" is the most commonly heard form among the people I know,
with "courriel" slowly gaining ground.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Adam Funk
Typed almost entirely in upper-case, with a saluation like "ESTEEMED
SIR"?
--
Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults.
[XKCD 312]
owlcroft
An old copy of the Harbrace College Handbook merely marks "My dear Sir/
Mr. Smith" (with lower-case "d") as "more formal" than the simple
"Dear Sir/Mr. Smith"; another old work says "more formality is shown"
by the "My dear" form. I did find somewhere a suggestion that in
British usage the significance is reserved, so that "My Dear" actually
is less formal, so add that to the mix.
I can only say that did I receive a letter or email from an American
that started with "My Dear" in the salutation, I'd be keyed to expect
some less than cordial content.
Meanwhile, "Dear" is like almost all elements of politeness:
formulaic. It is used just *because* it has acquired the arbitrary
but universally comprehended meaning "I wish to communicate
politely". If one does not wish to communicate politely, one varies
the form, anything from the still-formulaic "My dear" to "Listen,
fuckhead", as one prefers. Thus, to deviate from the formula--as with
a blunt "To"--is to invite the apprehension that you do not wish to be
taken as opening a polite communication.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>On 2009-02-20, Cece wrote:
>
>> The first time I received a letter from France, I spent quite a while
>> with the bilingual dictionary translating a whole paragraph that
>> boiled down to "Sincerely."
>>
>> Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
>
>No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
I believe the "email" spelling has finally won the day.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Skitt
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> Cece wrote:
>>> The first time I received a letter from France, I spent quite a
>>> while with the bilingual dictionary translating a whole paragraph
>>> that boiled down to "Sincerely."
>>>
>>> Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
>>
>> No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
>
> I believe the "email" spelling has finally won the day.
Not as far as M-W Online and AHD4 are concerned, although the latter
acknowledges that email, online, webpage, homepage, online, and printout are
gaining in usage over their two-word or hyphenated versions.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Amethyst Deceiver
Er, no, it's still current. "Dear Sir/Madam ... Yours faithfully";
"Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ... Yours sincerely".
Current enough that I use these every day and so do the people I work
with - from professor to work experience student.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Adam Funk
...pry the hyphen out of my cold dead fingers, etc., ad nauseam...
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Stob 2001)
Leslie Danks
> On 2009-02-22, Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:14:47 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2009-02-20, Cece wrote:
>
>>>> Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
>>>
>>>No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
>>
>> I believe the "email" spelling has finally won the day.
>
> ...pry the hyphen out of my cold dead fingers, etc., ad nauseam...
Email is German for (vitreous) enamel. I don't suppose the chances of
confusion are high, but never say never.
--
Les (BrE)
HVS
> On 2009-02-22, Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:14:47 +0000, Adam Funk
>> <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2009-02-20, Cece wrote:
>
>>>> Have you ever received a letter from Nigeria?
>>>
>>> No, but I've had e-mails in a peculiar style from there.
>>
>> I believe the "email" spelling has finally won the day.
>
> ...pry the hyphen out of my cold dead fingers, etc., ad
> nauseam...
Ditto.
But in any case, it's not an either/or thing: "e-mail" and "email"
will co-exist for a long time in precisely the same way that a whole
heap of other compounds have done.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Robert Bannister
Which shows once again that you can't trust dictionaries, although Arne
won't believe it.
--
Rob Bannister
Chuck Riggs
Adam Funk
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> I believe the "email" spelling has finally won the day.
>
> Not as far as M-W Online and AHD4 are concerned, although the latter
> acknowledges that email, online, webpage, homepage, online, and printout are
> gaining in usage over their two-word or hyphenated versions.
I'm occasionally forced to use "markup" and "plugin" without hyphens
in parts of documents mostly written by other people, but I don't like
them or "online" at all. For some strange reason, however, "printout"
doesn't bug me.
--
Classical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture,
indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us
doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and
Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995)
Cece
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
In the American business world, a simple "Sincerely" closes nearly
every letter, no matter how the salutation is phrased.
DJ
Wait... I want to make sure I understand you correctly. So you're saying:
1. People(you and the people you work with) don't write "Yours
sincerely" to a complete stranger.
2. Well, I guess 1. is what I really want to know.
Thanks,
--
DJ
I got confused again.
DJ
I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
letter?
For example, I plan to apply for a grad school in UK. I want to write a
letter to a professor Brown (maybe for a scholarship). This is the first
time I write to him, and because we are strangers to each other, so I
should write "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last name*) ... Yours
faithfully", but not "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely".
After I receive a letter from him, and I need to write to him again, I
should write "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely" (because we aren't
strangers to each other), but not "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last
name*) ... Yours faithfully".
?
--
DJ
James Silverton
"Dear Professor Robertson" would be appropriate both for initial and
continued use with a British professor, I think. If you are on equal
terms, you can see how they refer to you. American professors are most
often addressed as, say "Dr. Einstein", by students and "Dear Dr.
Einstein" in an initial letter.
I might use "Dr." too if I were writing to a British professor unless a
very formal use required "Professor". In continued correspondence
between equals, the use of first names seems to occur more rapidly in
the US but I could be wrong there. Not all British professors have
doctorates but most do and it would hardly be insulting to give them the
title but, of course, "Professor" is safe.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Someone else might reply to your question, but here is a piece of
advice:
Do not use the abbreviation "Prof" when writing to a professor. Always
use "Professor".
The abbreviations Dr/Mr/Ms are fine but never use "Prof" when writing to
or speaking to a professor.
Adam Funk
>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>>> Er, no, it's still current. "Dear Sir/Madam ... Yours faithfully";
>>> "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ... Yours sincerely".
>>>
>>> Current enough that I use these every day and so do the people I work
>>> with - from professor to work experience student.
>
> I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
> to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
> letter?
>
> For example, I plan to apply for a grad school in UK. I want to write a
> letter to a professor Brown (maybe for a scholarship). This is the first
> time I write to him, and because we are strangers to each other, so I
> should write "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last name*) ... Yours
> faithfully", but not "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely".
>
> After I receive a letter from him, and I need to write to him again, I
> should write "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely" (because we aren't
> strangers to each other), but not "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last
> name*) ... Yours faithfully".
AIUI, if you're writing to a specific person in the organization, you
would address the letter to
Professor H Wilt
Department of Liberal Studies
...
and use the opening and closing
Dear Professor Wilt
...
Yours sincerely,
but if you're writing more vaguely to an organization, even if there
is an "attention" line, you would write:
HM Inspector of Taxes West Podunk District
37 High Street
Podunk
PK1 2BC
For the attention of Fred Bloggs
Dear Sirs:
...
Yours faithfully,
The term "HM Inspector of Taxes" is now obsolete, but it's been over
ten years since I worked for accountants. It was also customary to
send letters to male clients who didn't have non-Mr titles (Dr,
Professor, etc.) as "John Smith, Esq." rather than "Mr John Smith".
(I can only suppose that this was based on the notion that
accountants' clients were gentlemen.)
Note that I haven't done much official business correspondence in
English since then, so the other stuff I've written above may be
obsolescent. On the other hand, it's probably safer to err on the
conservative side.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]
Adam Funk
> "Dear Professor Robertson" would be appropriate both for initial and
> continued use with a British professor, I think. If you are on equal
> terms, you can see how they refer to you. American professors are most
> often addressed as, say "Dr. Einstein", by students and "Dear Dr.
> Einstein" in an initial letter.
>
> I might use "Dr." too if I were writing to a British professor unless a
> very formal use required "Professor". In continued correspondence
> between equals, the use of first names seems to occur more rapidly in
> the US but I could be wrong there. Not all British professors have
> doctorates but most do and it would hardly be insulting to give them the
> title but, of course, "Professor" is safe.
I'd say definitely use "Professor Einstein" if applicable rather than
"Doctor Einstein" or "Dr Einstein". As you say, not all professors
have doctorates, but a professor generally "outranks" a " doctor.
--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)
Paul Wolff
--
Paul
DJ
>>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>>>> Er, no, it's still current. "Dear Sir/Madam ... Yours faithfully";
>>>> "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ... Yours sincerely".
>>>>
>>>> Current enough that I use these every day and so do the people I work
>>>> with - from professor to work experience student.
> Someone else might reply to your question, but here is a piece of
> advice:
>
> Do not use the abbreviation "Prof" when writing to a professor. Always
> use "Professor".
>
> The abbreviations Dr/Mr/Ms are fine but never use "Prof" when writing to
> or speaking to a professor.
>
>
Thanks. I live in the US and I don't quite know the conventions in the
UK. I followed Amethyst Deceiver's example and that's why I wrote as
such. I'll rewrite my question again.
I know this can get confusing because my original question WAS NOT to
ask the pairing of "sincerely/faithfully" with "Dear <Salutation> + Last
name / Dear <Salutation>".
Let me repeat again. I am not asking the pairing.
What I want to ask is: (from my first post)
>>>>>>> [quote]
>>>>>>> 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>>>>>>> For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>>>>>>> [end quote]
From Amethyst Deceiver's response, I got the impression that there are
still people in the UK (currently) observe the quoted convention.
Ex:
I know Mr. Brown/met him before -->
(O) Dear Mr. Brown ..... Yours sincerely
(X) Dear Sir .... Yours faithfully
I don't know Mr. Brown/never met him before. Mr. Brown is a complete
stranger to me
-->
(O) Dear Sir .... Yours faithfully
(X) Dear Mr. Brown ..... Yours sincerely
I must apologize if I didn't express myself clearly. If I still don't,
well, I guess I'll just have to stop thinking about BrE usage in this
convention.
Thanks,
--
DJ
DJ
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> such. I'll rewrite my question again.
By the way, I want to point it out that I wasn't questioning you(Peter).
My question was addressed to AUEers.
And thank you(Peter) for telling me the correct(or better)(*1) way of
using "Professor".
(*1) Just in case the word "correct" might anger some people
--
DJ
Chuck Riggs
"My dear sir" and "Our faithful customer", included?
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>On 2009-02-24, James Silverton wrote:
>
>> "Dear Professor Robertson" would be appropriate both for initial and
>> continued use with a British professor, I think. If you are on equal
>> terms, you can see how they refer to you. American professors are most
>> often addressed as, say "Dr. Einstein", by students and "Dear Dr.
>> Einstein" in an initial letter.
>>
>> I might use "Dr." too if I were writing to a British professor unless a
>> very formal use required "Professor". In continued correspondence
>> between equals, the use of first names seems to occur more rapidly in
>> the US but I could be wrong there. Not all British professors have
>> doctorates but most do and it would hardly be insulting to give them the
>> title but, of course, "Professor" is safe.
>
>I'd say definitely use "Professor Einstein" if applicable rather than
>"Doctor Einstein" or "Dr Einstein". As you say, not all professors
>have doctorates, but a professor generally "outranks" a " doctor.
Unless I was enrolled in one of his courses, I would definitely not
use "Professor". I agree that "Doctor" would be unusual, with the
usual salutation being "Dr Einstein".
Adam Funk
> AIUI, if you're writing to a specific person in the organization, you
> would address the letter to
>
> Professor H Wilt
> Department of Liberal Studies
> ...
>
> and use the opening and closing
>
> Dear Professor Wilt
Oops, that should be
Dear Professor Wilt:
or
Dear Professor Wilt,
> ...
> Yours sincerely,
--
Taken on the whole however this is a fine disc and a good example of
the current pop scene attempting to break out of its vulgarisms and
sometimes downright obscene derivative hogwash.
(Julian Stone-Mason B.A., 1972)
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> Oops, that should be
> Dear Professor Wilt:
No: we don't use a colon in this position.
> or
> Dear Professor Wilt,
Yes: we do use a comma.
>> ...
>> Yours sincerely,
I have the honour to remain, dear sir, your most obedient servant,
--
Mike.
Mike.
Nick
> Adam Funk wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> Oops, that should be
>> Dear Professor Wilt:
>
> No: we don't use a colon in this position.
The blasted paperclip did.
I was once on something like page 5 of a document and wrote "to do this,
you must:" and was just about to start a list of things when up he
popped with "it looks like you're writing a letter".
Word!
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Skitt
> "Mike Lyle" writes:
>>> Oops, that should be
>>> Dear Professor Wilt:
>>
>> No: we don't use a colon in this position.
>
> The blasted paperclip did.
>
> I was once on something like page 5 of a document and wrote "to do
> this, you must:" and was just about to start a list of things when up
> he popped with "it looks like you're writing a letter".
>
> Word!
From http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/colon.htm :
We also use a colon after a salutation in a business letter . . .
Dear Senator Dodd:
--
Skitt (AmE)
James Silverton
> From http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/colon.htm :
> Dear Senator Dodd:
Of course, using the same type of English, I use a colon but does anyone
but profeesors of English notice or care?
Robin Bignall
So Mike's labouring under an illusion?
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Skitt
> Skitt wrote:
>> Nick wrote:
>>> "Mike Lyle" writes:
>>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> Oops, that should be
>>>>> Dear Professor Wilt:
>>>>
>>>> No: we don't use a colon in this position.
>>>
>>> The blasted paperclip did.
>>>
>>> I was once on something like page 5 of a document and wrote
>>> "to do this, you must:" and was just about to start a list of
>>> things when up he popped with "it looks like you're writing a
>>> letter".
>>>
>>> Word!
>
>> From http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/colon.htm :
>
>> We also use a colon after a salutation in a business letter . . .
>
>> Dear Senator Dodd:
>
> Of course, using the same type of English, I use a colon but does
> anyone but profeesors of English notice or care?
The general populace does not notice nor care about many things.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robert Bannister
I don't think the part about having met the person is relevant - it is
more to do with whether you know the person's name or not.
Name not known:
Dear Sir/Madam.... Yours faithfully
Name known (by whatever means)
Dear Mr X/Ms Y.... Yours sincerely.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:14:29 +0000, Paul Wolff
> <boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote
>>> Note that I haven't done much official business correspondence in
>>> English since then, so the other stuff I've written above may be
>>> obsolescent. On the other hand, it's probably safer to err on the
>>> conservative side.
>>>
>> That last sentence is a general truth. It is also a political truth.
>
> So Mike's labouring under an illusion?
Story of my political life, perhaps.
--
Mike.
DJ
> DJ wrote:
....
....
>> What I want to ask is: (from my first post)
>>
>> > [quote]
>> > 'Sincerely' is used to address someone you've met already.
>> > For people you haven't seen/met, 'faithfully' is recommended.
>> > [end quote]
....
> I don't think the part about having met the person is relevant - it is
> more to do with whether you know the person's name or not.
>
> Name not known:
> Dear Sir/Madam.... Yours faithfully
> Name known (by whatever means)
> Dear Mr X/Ms Y.... Yours sincerely.
>
>
Thank you, Rob.
--
DJ
Nick
> I don't think the part about having met the person is relevant - it is
> more to do with whether you know the person's name or not.
>
> Name not known:
> Dear Sir/Madam.... Yours faithfully
> Name known (by whatever means)
> Dear Mr X/Ms Y.... Yours sincerely.
Indeed, the mnemonic I was told many years ago is that you don't have
the two "S"s together: it's never "Der Sir" and "Yours sincerely".
Have we done "yours aye" yet?
Robert Bannister
I notice colons in place of commas, but I always assume it's foreign and
probably German.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
The link I gave above is to an American grammar and writing guide.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Amethyst Deceiver
It's not whether the letter is written to a complete stranger, it's
whether it is addressed to a name or a title. If you address a letter
"Dear Sir" then you sign off "yours faithfully". If you address it to
"Dear Mr Bloggs" then you sign off "yours sincerely" regardless of
whether you are writing to a stranger or not.
> > 2. Well, I guess 1. is what I really want to know.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
>
> I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
> to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
> letter?
Yes. And in that case I would end "yours sincerely".
> For example, I plan to apply for a grad school in UK. I want to write a
> letter to a professor Brown (maybe for a scholarship). This is the first
> time I write to him, and because we are strangers to each other, so I
> should write "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last name*) ... Yours
> faithfully", but not "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely".
>
> After I receive a letter from him, and I need to write to him again, I
> should write "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely" (because we aren't
> strangers to each other), but not "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last
> name*) ... Yours faithfully".
That's correct.
Mike Page
>> For example, I plan to apply for a grad school in UK. I want to write a
>> letter to a professor Brown (maybe for a scholarship). This is the first
>> time I write to him, and because we are strangers to each other, so I
>> should write "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last name*) ... Yours
>> faithfully", but not "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely".
>>
>> After I receive a letter from him, and I need to write to him again, I
>> should write "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely" (because we aren't
>> strangers to each other), but not "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last
>> name*) ... Yours faithfully".
>
> That's correct.
>
If you know you are writing to a specific individual, write 'Dear
Professor Brown ... Yours sincerely' whether or not you have met him/her
or written to him/her before.
Don't write 'Dear Prof' and omit the last name until you know him/her
quite well. 'Dear Prof' is familiar. It's more familiar than using the
given name, these days, IMHO.
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
DJ
>> I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
>> to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
>> letter?
>
> Yes. And in that case I would end "yours sincerely".
Thanks. I just want to make sure. By saying 'Yes' you mean:
'Yes, it is customary to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms
...(name)..." in a letter'
or
'Yes. It is NOT .....' (Not likely, but I sometimes hear this kind of
usage, so I want to be sure...)
Mike Page wrote:
> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>> In article <go1ke6$ucc$1...@reader.motzarella.org>, nos...@no.no says...
> ...>
>>> For example, I plan to apply for a grad school in UK. I want to write
>>> a letter to a professor Brown (maybe for a scholarship). This is the
>>> first time I write to him, and because we are strangers to each
>>> other, so I should write "Dear Sir(or simply Prof, *no last name*)
>>> ... Yours faithfully", but not "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely".
>>>
>>> After I receive a letter from him, and I need to write to him again,
>>> I should write "Dear Prof Brown .... Yours sincerely" (because we
>>> aren't strangers to each other), but not "Dear Sir(or simply Prof,
>>> *no last name*) ... Yours faithfully".
>>
>> That's correct.
>>
> UP to a point ...
>
> If you know you are writing to a specific individual, write 'Dear
> Professor Brown ... Yours sincerely' whether or not you have met him/her
> or written to him/her before.
Thanks.
> Don't write 'Dear Prof' and omit the last name until you know him/her
> quite well. 'Dear Prof' is familiar. It's more familiar than using the
> given name, these days, IMHO.
>
I take it this refers to 'Dear Prof' but not 'Dear Professor'.
Thank you for pointing it out.
--
DJ
The example I gave above was a bad one, so I'll stop here.
Mike Page
> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>
> >> I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
> >> to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
> >> letter?
> >
> > Yes. And in that case I would end "yours sincerely".
>
> Thanks. I just want to make sure. By saying 'Yes' you mean:
> 'Yes, it is customary to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms
company trying to persuade assistant, associate and full professors to
adopt its textbooks. The safe rule is 'if you know the name, use it'.
The difficult thing to know is when to move from 'Dear Professor Spira'
to 'Dear Laura'. Again, the safe thing to do is to wait until the other
party adopts that form of address.
It probably doesn't really matter too much since, these days, professors
get called all sorts of things by their students and have long ago given
up being offended.
--
Mike 'Call me Professor' Page
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
"Dear Professor Applegate" looks almost as odd to me as "Dear Lecturer
Barnaby". In the first case, I'd write "Dear Dr Applegate" and in the
second, "Dear Mr Barnaby".
the Omrud
That's because your AmE has "Professor" as a job, whereas in BrE it is a
title. We would feel the same about "Dear Teacher Applegate".
--
David
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> "Dear Professor Applegate" looks almost as odd to me as "Dear Lecturer
>> Barnaby". In the first case, I'd write "Dear Dr Applegate" and in the
>> second, "Dear Mr Barnaby".
>
>That's because your AmE has "Professor" as a job, whereas in BrE it is a
>title. We would feel the same about "Dear Teacher Applegate".
The OED summarises:
professor, n.
II. Senses relating to academic or other professional function or
status.
4. a. A university academic of the highest rank; spec. (in Britain
and some other English-speaking countries) the holder of a
university chair in a specified faculty or subject.
Also, in N. Amer.: any teacher at a university. Also applied to
people of similar status in institutions other than universities.
In the UK "professor" is a job title in a university. It is, I think,
unique in that it is the only academic job title that is used when
referring to or addressing its holder.
If you address a British professor as "Dr" you will appear to be
deliberately demoting her or him.
The academic staff in the School of Electronics, Electrical Engineering
and Computer Science, Queen's University Belfast are listed on this
page:
http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/eeecs/Staff/AcademicStaff/
The professors are named as "Prof. X". The others, regardless of job
title are named as "Dr/Mr X".
Similarly in this list for the QUB Management School:
http://www.qub.ac.uk/mgt/Staff/
I note that the EEECS people use the abbreviation Prof. whereas
Professor is used in full by the management specialists.
Mu advice is still: when in doubt use the full word.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Paul Wolff
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote
>[...]
>>>
>>> Two taken at random from the pile of paperwork waiting to be filed:
>>>
>>> From the bank where we have a mortgage:
>>>
>>> - Nous vous prions d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de nos
>>> salutations distinguées.
>>>
>>> From EDF, confirming an order to dig up the road and lay a mains
>>> cable: - Je vous prie d'agréer, Monsieur, l'expression de mes
>>> sincères
>>> salutations. Hmmm, a pattern. I hadn't bothered noting them in
>>> detail before.
>>>
>> I used to receive letters from a French firm which ended fairly simply
>> with "vos avoués" (I think) before the signature block. Seemed a bit
>> like "Yours faithfully". The principal was a bit of an Anglophile,
>> though.
>
>No sentiments the most distinguished, then?
>
I was hoping to check. But the files are archived somewhere in North
London, if they haven't been meta-archived to points norther[1], and I
think I'll now call it un jour.
[1] It may be obsolete, but it's handy.
--
Paul
Chuck Riggs
Even after reading the OED summary I'm finding this topic difficult to
understand, but I appreciate your and David's explanations.
Amethyst Deceiver
>
> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>
> >> I think I should ask this also. In British English, is it not customary
> >> to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms ...(name)..." in a
> >> letter?
> >
> > Yes. And in that case I would end "yours sincerely".
>
> Thanks. I just want to make sure. By saying 'Yes' you mean:
> 'Yes, it is customary to address a complete stranger "Dear Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms
> ...(name)..." in a letter'
>
> or
>
> 'Yes. It is NOT .....' (Not likely, but I sometimes hear this kind of
> usage, so I want to be sure...)
I am very sorry, my reply was horribly ambiguous. Yes, it is customary
to address a complete stranger with Dear Professor/Mrs/Dr Name in a
letter.
DJ
....
....
> I am very sorry, my reply was horribly ambiguous. Yes, it is customary
> to address a complete stranger with Dear Professor/Mrs/Dr Name in a
> letter.
Thank you very much.
--
DJ