be/were promoted
Marius Hancu
stolen from the register.
2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t
stolen from the register.
Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Cheryl
> 1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn�t
> stolen from the register.
> 2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn�t
> stolen from the register.
>
> Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
>
> --
> Thanks.
> Marius Hancu
I'd use 'be'. "Were' doesn't sound right to me, I think because 'were'
seems to imply that I actually did recommend the promotion, but it's
clear I didn't.
--
Cheryl
Lars Eighner
<5bc603b0-51b3-486f...@v37g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Marius Hancu broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> 1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn?t
> stolen from the register.
> 2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn?t
> stolen from the register.
Appear to me to be identical.
> Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
I think "were" is not possible.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5928, 1993
306 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Marius Hancu
> > 1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn?t
> > stolen from the register.
> > 2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn?t
> > stolen from the register.
>
> Appear to me to be identical.
Cut-and-pasting:-[
> > Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
>
> I think "were" is not possible.
In grammar or in meaning?
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Steve Hayes
I'd say "be", but I'm wondering what is the difference between 1 and 2.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Marius Hancu
> >1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t
> >stolen from the register.
> >2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t
> >stolen from the register.
>
> >Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
>
> I'd say "be", but I'm wondering what is the difference between 1 and 2.
Bad cut-and-paste. Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Eric Walker
Inasmuch as the thought--his promotion--refers to a conception of the
mind and not a fact, expression of that thought wants the subjunctive
mood, which is "be".
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Marius Hancu
> > 1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t stolen
> > from the register.
> > 2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t stolen
> > from the register.
>
> > Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
>
> Inasmuch as the thought--his promotion--refers to a conception of the
> mind and not a fact, expression of that thought wants the subjunctive
> mood, which is "be".
Isn't "were" also a subjunctive?
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
James Hogg
>>> stolen from the register. 2. I would have recommended that he
>>> "be" and "were" possible here?
>> Inasmuch as the thought--his promotion--refers to a conception of
>> the mind and not a fact, expression of that thought wants the
>> subjunctive mood, which is "be".
>
> Isn't "were" also a subjunctive?
It certainly is, but you may wonder why a past subjunctive doesn't sound
right here. This is tricky. In BrE we would avoid the subjunctive and
use "should", which would remain the same whatever the tense:
I recommend that he should be promoted.
I recommended that he should be promoted.
I would have recommended that he should be promoted if he hadn�t stolen
from the register.
It's only if you use the indicative that a normal sequence of tenses can
be displayed, but this will horrify many people:
I recommend that he is promoted.
I recommended that he was promoted.
I would have recommended that he was promoted if he hadn�t stolen from
the register.
Sequence of tenses is observed in other uses of the subjunctive:
If it be your will, I am prepared to die.
You said that if it were my will, you were prepared to die.
Maybe some seasoned subjunctive user will provide a good explanation for
the reluctance to use "were" in:
I would have recommended that he were promoted if he hadn�t stolen from
the register.
Is there a difference depending on whether we are speaking about
yesterday or thinking back to 1962?
--
James
Steve Hayes
In certain circumstances.
Marius Hancu
>
> <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 23, 9:58 pm, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>
> >> > 1. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t stolen
> >> > from the register.
> >> > 2. I would have recommended that he be/were promoted if he hadn’t stolen
> >> > from the register.
>
> >> > Are both "be" and "were" possible here?
>
> >> Inasmuch as the thought--his promotion--refers to a conception of the
> >> mind and not a fact, expression of that thought wants the subjunctive
> >> mood, which is "be".
>
> >Isn't "were" also a subjunctive?
>
> In certain circumstances.
Right. I meant those in:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxsubjun.html
Marius Hancu
Peter Moylan
>>> stolen from the register. 2. I would have recommended that he
>>> "be" and "were" possible here?
>> Inasmuch as the thought--his promotion--refers to a conception of
>> the mind and not a fact, expression of that thought wants the
>> subjunctive mood, which is "be".
>
> Isn't "were" also a subjunctive?
It is, but it can't be used in the example sentence. When I think about
how we use it, I'm tempted to say that the thing we call "past
subjunctive" (among other names) should be called a subjunctive at all.
It would make more sense to call it a conditional, if it weren't for the
fact that "conditional" is already a label for something else.
When I learnt French subjunctives, I was encouraged to learn them with a
preceding "que", as a mnemonic. (Just as people learn English
infinitives with a preceding "to", to the point where many people
believe that the "to" is part of the infinitive.)
If I applied the same principle to English subjunctives, I would be learning
that he be promoted
and
if he were promoted
Notice that there is no "that he were promoted". I can't think of a
single example that uses "were" in combination with "that". In fact, I
can't think of an example of subjunctive "were" that isn't preceded by
"if", although somebody will surely be around in a minute to provide
examples.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Steve Hayes
I'm not sure that any of those apply in this case.
If you use "were" it implies that the promotion came first, then the
recommendation.
There are four times:
First the stealing
Then the non-recommendation
Then the non-promotion
Then the speaking of it
The time the sentence is spoken is the present
The time of the ;possible promotion, which, had it occurred, would have been
future at the time of the recommendation, though past at the time the
sentence is spoken. The use of "were" would suggest that the reccommended
non-promotion had already not opccurred at the time of the non-recommendation.
The theft is in the remotest past.
Using "were" would switch the time sequence of 2 and 3.
Eric Walker
Yes, but it is the past tense. It is vital to use of the subjunctive
mood to realize that tenses in it do not have the ordinary, familiar
connection with actual time they do in the ordinary declarative mood.
The past subjunctive, for example, rarely refers to time past, being in
use for the present and the future about as much as is the present
subjunctive.
The essence of the subject sentence is:
I recommended that he be/were promoted.
As best I can see it, strict adherence to the so-called "Sequence of
Tenses" rule of English would call for the past subjunctive form "were".
But, as Curme notes,
"Sometimes after a past tense there is a tendency to disregard the old
sequence [of tenses] where the idea of present or future time is
prominent: She was afraid to breathe lest she *break* the wonderful
spell of the magic."
Sequence of Tenses (which Curme elsewhere calls "the stupidest rule in
English") would want "broke" there, but virtually no one would use it,
though it is sometimes to be found (He decided that he would go and see
whether Rachel were in)
I suspect that over the past few decades, what Curme called "sometimes"
has evolved to "Almost invariably".
Die, Sequence of Tenses, die! ("A few seconds ago, we received word that
he *was* still sick in bed." Yuck. Die!)
James Hogg
Are you talking only about present-day usage? Google Books shows that
there are plenty of examples of "that he were" in English literature:
"better that he were dead"
"advise that he were left to his fate"
"began to wish that he were settled"
"let it be supposed that he were now in Africa"
Is it further evidence of the slow demise of the subjunctive that its users
avoid "were" in a sentence where it would undoubtedly have been used a
century ago, like "I would have recommended that he were promoted".
--
James