"as to" vs. "as for"
zbihniew
difference but I believe that in some contexts only one of them is
appropriate.
Alan
"zbihniew" <zbih...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:e0763t$2tg$1...@opal.icpnet.pl...
> Could you explain the difference between the two? I just can't feel the
> difference but I believe that in some contexts only one of them is
> appropriate.
Supply the contexts.
Don Phillipson
news:e0763t$2tg$1...@opal.icpnet.pl...
> Could you explain the difference between the two? I just can't feel the
> difference but I believe that in some contexts only one of them is
> appropriate.
You are right: the point being that rightness (cf.
popularity) is measured relative to context, in each
and every different type of use. There seems to be
no a priori or formative rule -- only a (large) set of
patterns recognized after the fact as acceptable.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Marius Hancu
>>Could you explain the difference between the two? I just can't feel the
>>difference but I believe that in some contexts only one of them is
>>appropriate.
>
> You are right: the point being that rightness (cf.
> popularity) is measured relative to context, in each
> and every different type of use. There seems to be
> no a priori or formative rule -- only a (large) set of
> patterns recognized after the fact as acceptable.
Garner mentions "as for" as being more colloquial and warns that both
should be, in many cases, avoided and gives many examples (Modern
American Usage). Should the OP be interested, I can post some of those
examples here.
Several recommendations re their usage can be found in Fowler:
------------
We shall first illustrate the absurd prevailing abuse of the compound
preposition "as to". In each of the following sentences, if "as to" is
simply left out, no difference whatever is made in the meaning. It is
only familiarity with unnecessary circumlocution that makes such a state
of things tolerable to any one with a glimmering of literary
discernment. "As to" flows from the pen now at every possible
opportunity, till many writers seem quite unaware that such words as
"question" or "doubt" can bear the weight of a "whether"-clause without
help from this offensive parasite.
With the idea of endeavouring to ascertain as to this, I
invited...—Times.
Confronted with the simple question as to in what way other
people's sisters, wives and daughters differ from theirs...—Daily Telegraph.
It is not quite clear as to what happened.—Westminster Gazette.
Doubt is expressed as to whether the fall of Port Arthur will
materially affect the situation.—Times.
I feel tempted to narrate one that occurred to me, leaving it to
your judgment as to whether it is worthy of notice in your paper.—Spectator.
I was entirely indifferent as to the results of the game, caring
nothing at all as to whether I had losses or gains.—Corelli.
The first "as to" in this may pass, though plain to is better.
German anticipations with regard to the future are apparently based
upon the question as to how far the Sultan will...—Times.
But you are dying to know what brings me here, and even if you find
nothing new in it you will perhaps think it makes some difference as to
who says a thing.—Greenwood.
This is the worst of all. The subject of "makes" (anticipated in the
ordinary way by "it") is "who says a thing"; but the construction is
obscured by the insertion of "as to". We are forced to suppose, wrongly,
that "it" means "what brings me here". Worse than the worst, however, at
least more aggressively wrong, is an instance that we find while
correcting this sheet for the press:
...Although it is open to doubt as to what extent individual saving
through more than one provident institution prevails.—Westminster Gazette.
H.W. Fowler (1858–1933). The King’s English, 2nd ed. 1908.
http://www.bartleby.com/116/217.html
--------
Marius Hancu
Alexei A. Frounze
I may offer two different uses:
*As for* that feature you mentioned last time, it's not working.
Make it so *as not to* break the other.
Alex
zbihniew
>>Could you explain the difference between the two? I just can't feel the
>>difference but I believe that in some contexts only one of them is
>>appropriate.
>
>
> Supply the contexts.
Examples from www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
"As to the act of circumvention in itself, the provision prohibits
circumventing the first category of technological measures, but not the
second."
Why not "as for"? I admit I wouldn't use it here either but I cannot
really explain why.
"The statute also establishes procedures for proper notification, and
rules as to its effect."
As to this, I have no doubt.
An example from http://drupal.org/node/55196
"As for the MySQL example, it is distributed under a dual licensing
arrangement, and I don't see a problem with that."
To me (or "for me"? having set on thinking too much about the to vs. for
difference, I'm getting more and more doubts) it's quite similar to the
first example.
zbihniew
> Several recommendations re their usage can be found in Fowler:
Thanks for the examples supplied.
Marius Hancu
More on this from Garner, perhaps it helps:
---------
As to
A. Defensible Uses
First, it must be said that "as to" is an all-purpose preposition to
be avoided whenever a more specific preposition will do. But "as to"
isn't always indefensible. The phrase is most justifiable when
introducing something previously mentioned only cursorily:
"_As to_ concerns the fair might lose on-track business [sic!] if it
offered its signal to the OTBs, [Dun said]: 'I figured we were going
to lose the handle either way.'"
In beginning sentences this way, "as to" is equivalent to the more
colloquial "as for." In effect, the phrase is a passable shorthand
forme of "regarding," "with regard to," or "on the question of."
The phrase is also (minimally) defensible when used for "about," but
that word is stylistically preferable in most context. "As to" smells of
jargon--e.g.:
"The bill carries no presumptions _as to_ [read/use _about_] the effect
of incorporation."
"Reasonable people may disagree _as to_ [read/use _about_] the
importance of the school system's efforts to prevent and detect thefts
in the schools."
Garner, Modern American Usage, p. 70
-------
Marius Hancu
Robert Bannister
Indeed. I don't think I am totally consistent on this, but I would
choose "as for" when it is followed by a noun, but "as to" when it
followed by a verb (as "break" above) or when followed by words like
"how, when, where, etc.".
--
Rob Bannister
Mark Brader
> The phrase ["as to"] is most justifiable when
> introducing something previously mentioned only cursorily:
>
> "_As to_ concerns the fair might lose on-track business [sic!] if it
> offered its signal to the OTBs, [Dun said]: 'I figured we were going
> to lose the handle either way.'"
>
> In beginning sentences this way, "as to" is equivalent to the more
> colloquial "as for." In effect, the phrase is a passable shorthand
> forme of "regarding," "with regard to," or "on the question of."
I think there's a subtle difference. In addition to being less formal,
"as for" conveys the connotation that you were previously addressing
one or more related subjects and are now moving on to this (probably
final) one. For example:
So it was decided that Armstrong and Aldrin would be the ones
to walk on the Moon; and as for Collins, lunar orbit would be
as close as he'd get.
If you saw a book that *started* with
As for Michael Collins, lunar orbit would be as close as he'd
ever get to the Moon.
you'd get the feeling that the narrator was starting, as narrators
sometimes do, in the middle of the story.
In conversation "as for" may be used without any related subjects
having been discussed explicitly, but I think there's an implication
that there *is* a related subject and we already know what *would*
have been said about it.
With "as to", on the other hand, there's only the connotation that
this subject has been mentioned before.
> The phrase is also (minimally) defensible when used for "about," but
> that word is stylistically preferable in most context. "As to" smells of
> jargon--e.g.:
>
> "The bill carries no presumptions _as to_ [read/use _about_] the effect
> of incorporation."
>
> "Reasonable people may disagree _as to_ [read/use _about_] the
> importance of the school system's efforts to prevent and detect thefts
> in the schools."
He says that as if jargon was a *bad* thing. I think "as to" in this
sort of statement conveys the suggestion that precise language is in
use, and is appropriate if it is. People would would say "about" here
are more likely to be paraphrasing.
--
Mark Brader "When laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have laws."
Toronto, m...@vex.net -- Diane Holt
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Marius Hancu
>>The phrase ["as to"] is most justifiable when
>>introducing something previously mentioned only cursorily:
>>
>>"_As to_ concerns the fair might lose on-track business [sic!] if it
>>offered its signal to the OTBs, [Dun said]: 'I figured we were going
>>to lose the handle either way.'"
>>
>>In beginning sentences this way, "as to" is equivalent to the more
>>colloquial "as for." In effect, the phrase is a passable shorthand
>>forme of "regarding," "with regard to," or "on the question of."
>
>
> I think there's a subtle difference. In addition to being less formal,
> "as for" conveys the connotation that you were previously addressing
> one or more related subjects and are now moving on to this (probably
> final) one. For example:
>
> So it was decided that Armstrong and Aldrin would be the ones
> to walk on the Moon; and as for Collins, lunar orbit would be
> as close as he'd get.
>
> If you saw a book that *started* with
>
> As for Michael Collins, lunar orbit would be as close as he'd
> ever get to the Moon.
I have the same feeling. Thanks for the confirmation.
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu
---------
As to
B. Poor Uses
The main problem with "as to" is that it doesn't clearly establish
syntactic or conceptual relationships, so it can hamper
comprehensibility. In each of the following examples, another
preposition would more directly and forcefully express the thought:
For _about_:
"There's no rule _as to_ [read _about_] how long you have to wait
before you can enjoy your creation."
For _on_:
"It is always possible that your neighbour is not aware of how
disturbing his or her behavior is and that he or she can be more
sensitive to your concerns, or you can agree _as to_ [read _on_]
certain time _parameters_ [read _limits_] or (if the music is the
culprit) what is the acceptable volume level."
For _of_:
"The same is true _as to_ [read _of_] other cases finding for leaders
by applying the regulation."
For _for_:
"There is no change in the prior IRA rules with regard to an
individual's participation in other qualifying retirement plans. _As
such_ [read _Therefore_], the rules remain the same _as to_ [read
_for_] the maximum value of adjusted gross income as taxpayer can have
before the IRA deduction begins to phase out."
For _by_ and _at_:
"Some people are a little surprised _as to_ [read _by_ or _at_] how
quickly Veniard has gotten to his present level."
For _into_:
"During a trip to the Mars Pathfinder Mission Control Center in
Pasadena this summer, House Aeronautics and Space Subcommittee member
Sheila Jackson-Lee, D-Texas, inquired _as to_ [read _into_] whether
the Pathfinder Mission had taken pictures of the American flag planted
by Neil Armstrong in 1969." (Another wording, _asked whether_, would
work even better in that sentence.)
Superfluous:
"With the season down to a dozen games, it's an open question _as to_
[delete _as to_] whether Sele would have been placed at risk if he'd
been asked to throw a couple of dozen more games."
amaxim...@gmail.com
Dr. HotSalt
Adding "so" to "as to" produces a different meaning entirely- "so as to" is a generic substitute for "in order to bring about/cause/potentiate" ("so as not to" being the negative "in order to prevent/etc.") and may be therefore called colloquial, but not wrong.
Dr. HotSalt