You don't drive like her...
MC
"You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
her?"
Is that second "her" right or wrong?
--
"Here I am paying big money to you writers and what for?
All you do is change the words."
- Samuel Goldwyn
geo...@ankerstein.org
> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>
> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> her?"
>
> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
Wrong.
GFH
HVS
Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Nick
> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>
>> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>> distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>> premiums as her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
"You don't drive like she does so why are you paying the same premiums
as she is?" Ta-dah!
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Leslie Danks
> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>
>> On May 30, 8:02�am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>> distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>> premiums as her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
I would just leave "as her" out altogether:
"You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
premiums?"
... unless the ad is aimed at the sort of people who might think "Same
premiums as who?", in which case whether you use "as her" or "as she" is
probably sausage, anyhow.
--
Les (BrE)
Mark Brader
> > "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> > her?"
> >
> > Is that second "her" right or wrong?
George F.H.:
> Wrong.
Wrong, it's right.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Mark is probably right about something,
m...@vex.net | but I forget what" -- Rayan Zachariassen
Mike Lyle
> M. Cope:
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>> her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> George F.H.:
>> Wrong.
>
> Wrong, it's right.
To be fair to our enquirer, we should make it clear that you're right
for an informal register, but it would be quite wrong in formal
language. In fact, the phrase "drive like her" would also be inadvisable
for formal use.
--
Mike.
geo...@ankerstein.org
> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>
> > On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> >> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
> >> distraction.
>
> >> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
> >> premiums as her?"
>
> >> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> > Wrong.
>
> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
Quite true. A rephrase could have accomplished both correct
grammar and idiomatic construction. In fact, I started to recommend
one such alternative. But I did not. Why? I did not want to kill
off
this thread that quickly.
So, suggest an alternate construction. I had little problem.
Go on: take a shot.
GFH
geo...@ankerstein.org
> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> writes:
> > On 30 May 2009, wrote
>
> >> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> >>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
> >>> distraction.
>
> >>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
> >>> premiums as her?"
>
> >>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> >> Wrong.
>
> > Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
> > unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>
> "You don't drive like she does so why are you paying the same premiums
> as she is?" Ta-dah!
OK, not bad. But others come to mind.
GFH
geo...@ankerstein.org
> M. Cope:
>
> > > "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> > > her?"
>
> > > Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> George F.H.:
>
> > Wrong.
>
> Wrong, it's right.
Sad, so sad. Ask Owlcroft whether you should be allowed
to post to the usegroup and more.
GFH
geo...@ankerstein.org
wrote:
I have never been that "fair" in my life. I do not intend to start
now.
GFH
Skitt
> (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> M. Cope:
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums
>>>> as her?"
>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> George F.H.:
>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>> Wrong, it's right.
>
> Sad, so sad. Ask Owlcroft whether you should be allowed
> to post to the usegroup and more.
There is an interesting discussion of the subject matter at
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm
--
Skitt
Mark Brader
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>>> her?"
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
George F.H.:
>>> Wrong.
Mark Brader:
>> Wrong, it's right.
Mike Lyle:
> To be fair to our enquirer, we should make it clear that you're right
> for an informal register,
It was a TV commercial.
> but it would be quite wrong in formal language.
If formal language believes that, then formal language is a ass, a idiot.
--
Mark Brader | "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure,
Toronto | nineteen pounds, nineteen, six, result happiness.
m...@vex.net | Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure,
| twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
| -- Mr. Micawber (Dickens: David Copperfield)
David Kaye
> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>
> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> her?"
>
> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
paying the same premiums as her pays?"
See how wrong that is?
MC
<6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yup.
But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as wrong
(even though it might be right)!
Skitt
> David Kaye wrote:
>> MC wrote:
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>> distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>> her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
>> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
>> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
>> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>>
>> See how wrong that is?
>
> Yup.
>
> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as
> wrong (even though it might be right)!
Well, that's English for you. If it isn't one thing, it's another.
You choose your style as best you can. Remember, opinions about it will be
formed.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Mark Brader
>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>> her?"
> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
No, that (with the obvious corrections) is a different sentence with
the same meaning.
--
Mark Brader | "Oh, especially if it's accurate. There's nothing worse
Toronto | than *accurate*, ill-informed, irresponsible press
m...@vex.net | speculation." -- Lynn & Jay: "Yes, Prime Minister"
Mike Lyle
> M. Cope:
>>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums
>>>>> as her?"
>
>>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> George F.H.:
>>>> Wrong.
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> Wrong, it's right.
>
> Mike Lyle:
>> To be fair to our enquirer, we should make it clear that you're right
>> for an informal register,
>
> It was a TV commercial.
Yes, that was given. My intention was to make the point clear.
>
>> but it would be quite wrong in formal language.
>
> If formal language believes that, then formal language is a ass, a
> idiot.
No, just formal. All languages, AFAIK, have registers.
--
Mike.
Peter Groves
news:6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes good,
like a cigarette should"?
Peter Groves
Robert Bannister
> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>
>> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>> distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>> premiums as her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>> Wrong.
>
> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>
I could only use "she" by adding "is".
--
Rob Bannister
mm
wrote:
>There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>
>"You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>her?"
>
>Is that second "her" right or wrong?
They are both wrong.
--
Posters should say where they live, and for which
area they are asking questions. I have lived in
Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 10 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years
Peter Groves
news:qc1425tod3kgmoatc...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 May 2009 08:02:43 -0400, MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net>
> wrote:
>
>>There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>
>>"You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>her?"
>>
>>Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> They are both wrong.
Of course, it should be "You don't drive like she" -- me knew this but me
has forgotten.
Peter Groves
Nick
> In article
> <6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 30, 5:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>> > There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>> >
>> > "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>> > her?"
>> >
>> > Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
>> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
>> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
>> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>>
>> See how wrong that is?
>
> Yup.
>
> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as wrong
> (even though it might be right)!
Though, as I showed elsethread, substituting "her" with "she does"[1]
works nicely.
[1] deliberate reversal of terms around "substitute" here.
MC
Nick <3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
> MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> writes:
>
> > In article
> > <6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> > David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On May 30, 5:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> >> > There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
> >> >
> >> > "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> >> > her?"
> >> >
> >> > Is that second "her" right or wrong?
> >>
> >> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
> >> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
> >> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
> >> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
> >>
> >> See how wrong that is?
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as wrong
> > (even though it might be right)!
>
> Though, as I showed elsethread, substituting "her" with "she does"[1]
> works nicely.
It does, but it doesn't trip off the tongue as well in a TV commercial.
I don't have much of a problem with the first "her" by the way.
"There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive like him. He doesn't drive
like me."
Informal? Colloquial? Maybe, but it sounds okay to me.
John Holmes
> MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> writes:
>>
>> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as
>> wrong (even though it might be right)!
I think the original "her" is acceptable, as Mark Brader says.
> Though, as I showed elsethread, substituting "her" with "she does"[1]
> works nicely.
>
> [1] deliberate reversal of terms around "substitute" here.
If you want to tack a verb on the end, it should be either:
"why are you paying the same premiums as she is?"
or
"why do you pay the same premiums as she does?"
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Jeffrey Turner
> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>
> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> her?"
>
> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
Only if you think the point of advertisements is grammar instruction.
The point is to get noticed and get the mfr/product remembered. In
which case, it seems to be very good.
--Jeff
--
The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire
Ian Noble
>There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>
>"You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>her?"
>
>Is that second "her" right or wrong?
That depends on whether you want to be understood or to get good marks
in a test.
It's incorrect according to most grammarians. But it's also a
perfectly good common usage.
Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Evan Kirshenbaum
Actually, my first reading of it the way you gave it was that what was
elided was "that you used to". That is, I read "the same" as a
temporal comparison rather than an interpersonal one.
I think my first reflex (i.e., what I would have actually written
rather than an attempt to make what I wrote "correct") would have been
You don't drive like she does, so why are you paying the same
premiums she does?
But I don't find the "like her" and "as her" wrong.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |foul play...
(650)857-7572
Frank ess
MC wrote:
> In article <874ov1p...@temporary-address.org.uk>,
> Nick <3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> writes:
>>
>>> In article
>>> <6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>>> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On May 30, 5:02� am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>>>> distraction.
>>>>>
>>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>>>> premiums as her?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>>>
>>>> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
>>>> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real
>>>> meaning of the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so
>>>> why are you paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>>>>
>>>> See how wrong that is?
>>>
>>> Yup.
>>>
>>> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as
>>> wrong (even though it might be right)!
>>
>> Though, as I showed elsethread, substituting "her" with "she
>> does"[1] works nicely.
>
> It does, but it doesn't trip off the tongue as well in a TV
> commercial.
>
> I don't have much of a problem with the first "her" by the way.
>
> "There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive like him. He doesn't
> drive like me."
>
> Informal? Colloquial? Maybe, but it sounds okay to me.
Me, too.
Part of communication, if not of grammar, is applying more information
and knowledge than is explicitly stated.
I think the unspoken understanding generated in most folks is of the
nature:
"I don't drive in a manner that would lead to me being mistaken for
him, and /vice versa/".
For some values of "I/me".
--
Frank ess
Leslie Danks
> Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> writes:
[...]
>> I would just leave "as her" out altogether:
>>
>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>> premiums?"
>>
>> ... unless the ad is aimed at the sort of people who might think
>> "Same premiums as who?", in which case whether you use "as her" or
>> "as she" is probably sausage, anyhow.
>
> Actually, my first reading of it the way you gave it was that what was
> elided was "that you used to". That is, I read "the same" as a
> temporal comparison rather than an interpersonal one.
I confess I never thought of that possibility.
> I think my first reflex (i.e., what I would have actually written
> rather than an attempt to make what I wrote "correct") would have been
>
> You don't drive like she does, so why are you paying the same
> premiums she does?
Writing "You don't drive like she does" leaves you open to attack by
people (W.H. Fowler, for example) who consider(ed) it to be "the most
flagrant and easily recognizable misuse of [like]", although Fowler does
qualify this statement with "if it is a misuse at all". "Correct",
according to this view would be "You don't drive as she does."
> But I don't find the "like her" and "as her" wrong.
I am not bothered by the first "like her". As others have pointed out,
this seems to have become idiomatic in "normal" usage--presumably because
the construction makes "like" look like a preposition instead of the
conjunction it actually is. The "as her" at the end does give me
indigestion, however, which is why I suggested leaving it off altogether.
--
Les (BrE)
David Kaye
> "There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive like him. He doesn't drive
> like me."
>
> Informal? Colloquial? Maybe, but it sounds okay to me.
Let's see how that goes when it's extended out:
"There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive a car like him drives a
car. He doesn't drive a car like me drives a car." Yecchhhh.
Or to take it the other way, "There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't
drive a car like he. He doesn't drive a car like I." Double-yikes!
David Kaye
> ***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes good,
> like a cigarette should"?
Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
should taste."
MC
<18380c8d-c9d6-4785...@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Of course. But it still sounds fine when it isn't extended out.
R H Draney
>
>On May 30, 3:35=A0pm, "Peter Groves" <whate...@whatever.org> wrote:
>
>> ***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes go=
>od,
>> like a cigarette should"?
>
>Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
>word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
>should taste."
I suppose the British version would be "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
should do"....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Roland Hutchinson
Of course. The only possible alternative, "You drive as her", could get you
arrested for identity theft.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Mark Brader
> > "There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive like him. He doesn't drive
> > like me."
David Kaye writes:
> Let's see how that goes when it's extended out...
Again, this is bogus. "Like me" is not a shortened form that can be
"extended out", any more than "to me" is.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... trapped in a twisty little maze
m...@vex.net of backslashes ..." -- Steve Summit
Jeffrey Turner
As if there could have been any confusion in that regard.
Jens Brix Christiansen
> Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
> word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
> should taste."
Winston tastes good like a cigarette had oughta.
--
Jens Brix Christiansen
Adrian Bailey
news:gvs3sk$36j$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Mark Brader wrote:
>> M. Cope:
>>>> her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>> Wrong, it's right.
>
> To be fair to our enquirer, we should make it clear that you're right for
> fact, the phrase "drive like her" would also be inadvisable for formal
> use.
I disagree. "Like her", "as her", etc. are now normal English. Keep up!
Adrian
Mike Lyle
Normal /informal/ English. Find me some examples in modern formal use,
and we may be able to negotiate. I see examples in OED from up to 1879,
but, frustratingly, it seems they haven't revised that entry. The
Dictionary reckons "She sings like her" is the same "like" as in "A
lecture should not read like an essay", but for some reason I'm not
clear about they feel slightly different to me. (Note that OED's "sings
like her" is from a diary or letter, and one from the notably chatty
Fanny Burney, at that.)
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
> In article <Xns9C1B95E...@news.albasani.net>, HVS
>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>>> distraction.
>>>>
>>>> premiums as her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>>
>>
>> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
>> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>
>
> And that's not the only problem.
>
> "You don't drive as she does"
Harvey is quite correct about the register: how about retuning your ear?
Or produce some examples of the "same premiums as she" construction from
advertising copy: you may conceivably find some, but I'll bet you they
won't be set in a colloquial text.
--
Mike.
Skitt
> The Dictionary reckons "She sings like her" is the same "like" as in
> "A lecture should not read like an essay", but for some reason I'm not
> clear about they feel slightly different to me. (Note that OED's
> "sings like her" is from a diary or letter, and one from the notably
> chatty Fanny Burney, at that.)
This is something completely different, but the above sentence took a couple
of readings to figure out which garden path to take.
A couple of commas in the right places could have helped -- one after the
"but", and another after the "about". I mentally inserted the first one,
but, not seeing another one, my first inclination was to imagine a comma
after the "reason". Too soon. Wrong path.
See how I am?
--
Skitt (AmE)
Mike Page
I don't have my Fowler or Gowers to hand, but ISTR one of them had a short
essay saying 'like her' or 'than me' was acceptable in most writing. We used
to appeal to them a lot, but don't seem to do so so much these days. I
wonder why they have fallen out of fashion hereabouts.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Adrian Bailey wrote:
>> I disagree. "Like her", "as her", etc. are now normal English. Keep
>> up!
>
> Normal /informal/ English. Find me some examples in modern formal use,
> and we may be able to negotiate. I see examples in OED from up to 1879,
> but, frustratingly, it seems they haven't revised that entry. The
> Dictionary reckons "She sings like her" is the same "like" as in "A
> lecture should not read like an essay", but for some reason I'm not
> clear about they feel slightly different to me. (Note that OED's "sings
> like her" is from a diary or letter, and one from the notably chatty
> Fanny Burney, at that.)
I see a lot of Google Books hits for "write like him", "talked like
her", and the like, but few of them are in authorial voice in (recent)
formal non-fiction. I'm not sure if this is because it's seen as
improper for formal writing or simply because the concepts that you'd
express that way don't come up all that often in such writing.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Amethyst Deceiver
>
> In article <4cmdneZi49n4ELzX...@vex.net>, Mark Brader
> <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
> > M. Cope:
> > > > "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
> > > > her?"
> > > >
> > > > Is that second "her" right or wrong?
> >
> > George F.H.:
> > > Wrong.
> >
> > Wrong, it's right.
>
> assert such a thing in here, a group dedicated to discussing the
> correct use of that language?
You have addressed two groups - which do you feel is dedicated to
discussing the correct use of English. It's not alt.usage.english,
certainly. AUE is dedicated to discussing the use of English.
Also sheep, food, the weather and pomes.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>In article <MPG.2490930e9...@news.individual.de>, Amethyst
>Deceiver <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>> You have addressed two groups - which do you feel is dedicated to
>> discussing the correct use of English. It's not alt.usage.english,
>> certainly. AUE is dedicated to discussing the use of English.
>
>OK I'll accept the over-rule and concede.
>
>> Also sheep, food, the weather and pomes.
>
>Hmmm ?
By custom, sheep and food are always on-topic in AUE. Discussions of
weather seem to be acceptable. Some people pronounce "poems" as "pomes".
Pomes are posted to AUE.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Mike Lyle
> In article <4cmdneZi49n4ELzX...@vex.net>, Mark Brader
> <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>
>> M. Cope:
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums
>>>> as her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>
>> George F.H.:
>>> Wrong.
>>
>> Wrong, it's right.
>
> How can anyone for whom English is presumably the first language,
> correct use of that language?
>
> It's clearly incorrect and, frankly, I can't see even a flimsy
> argument to make that the second "her" might be in any way correct.
But we've already noted that it's from an advertisement in informal
English. You surely aren't suggesting that it isn't.
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
Not just you: on looking at it later, I understood it only because I
knew what I'd been trying to say. Sorry.
--
Mike.
Bill McCray
wrote:
Thanks. Now I see how to make sense out of it.
Bill
----------------------------------------------------------------
Reverse parts of the user name and ISP name for my e-address
Marshall Price
> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>>
>>> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>>> distraction.
>>>>
>>>> premiums as her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
>> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>
> as she is?" Ta-dah!
"As" she does!
--
Marshall Price of Miami
marsha...@att.net
http://marshallprice.wordpress.com
Marshall Price
> On May 30, 9:44 am, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>>
>>> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>>> distraction.
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>>> premiums as her?"
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>> Wrong.
>> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
>> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>
> grammar and idiomatic construction. In fact, I started to recommend
> one such alternative. But I did not. Why? I did not want to kill
> off
> this thread that quickly.
>
> So, suggest an alternate construction. I had little problem.
> Go on: take a shot.
You mean a chalk?
Marshall Price
> M. Cope:
>>> her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
>> Wrong.
>
> Wrong, it's right.
How 'bout "the same premiums as hers"?
Peter Groves
news:wJudnZyDeOPgWKPX...@earthlink.com...
> geo...@ankerstein.org wrote:
>> On May 30, 9:44 am, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 30 May 2009, wrote
>>>
>>>> On May 30, 8:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to
>>>>> distraction.
>>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same
>>>>> premiums as her?"
>>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>>> Wrong.
>>> Using "she" in an advertisement, though, would sound entirely
>>> unidiomatic and lah-di-dah to my ear.
>>
>> Quite true. A rephrase could have accomplished both correct
>> grammar and idiomatic construction. In fact, I started to recommend
>> one such alternative. But I did not. Why? I did not want to kill
>> off
>> this thread that quickly.
>>
>> So, suggest an alternate construction. I had little problem.
Or perhaps an alternative construction.
Marshall Price
> geo...@ankerstein.org wrote:
>> (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>> M. Cope:
>
>>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums
>>>>> as her?"
>>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>>
>>>> Wrong.
>>> Wrong, it's right.
>> to post to the usegroup and more.
>
> There is an interesting discussion of the subject matter at
> http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/cases.htm
>
They say there--
When a sentence with compounded pronouns sounds intolerably klutzy, the
sentence will have to be rewritten. "The group gave certificates of
recognition to the two oldest members, him and me" might sound better as...
I don't get the accusation of "intolerably klutzy". It sounds fine
to me. Why "klutzy"?
Marshall Price
>
>> M. Cope:
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>>> her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>> George F.H.:
>>> Wrong.
>> Wrong, it's right.
>
> assert such a thing in here, a group dedicated to discussing the
> correct use of that language?
>
> It's clearly incorrect and, frankly, I can't see even a flimsy argument
> to make that the second "her" might be in any way correct.
Perhaps "the same...as her" resembles "as much as her" to some
people's way of thinking. "Her", because it appears to be an object, as
in "I've been giving you as much as her".
No, I take it back. It's beyond me, but "her" doesn't sound so awful
to me, for some reason.
Marshall Price
> On May 30, 5:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>
>> her?"
>>
>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>
> See how wrong that is?
>
No, cause like her, I don't drive.
Marshall Price
> In article
> <6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 30, 5:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>> her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
>> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
>> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
>> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>>
>> See how wrong that is?
>
>
> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as wrong
> (even though it might be right)!
>
How about, "You don't drive the way she drives..."? At least it
avoids the high-falutin' "as".
Marshall Price
> In article <874ov1p...@temporary-address.org.uk>,
> Nick <3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> writes:
>>
>>> In article
>>> <6be2118e-18ff-47d3...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>>> David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On May 30, 5:02 am, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>>>>
>>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>>>> her?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>>> Technically, both the second and the first "her" are wrong! The
>>>> sentence has an implication, an unstated object. The real meaning of
>>>> the sentence is, "You don't drive like her drives, so why are you
>>>> paying the same premiums as her pays?"
>>>>
>>>> See how wrong that is?
>>> Yup.
>>>
>>> But substituting "she" for both instances of "her" sounds just as wrong
>>> (even though it might be right)!
>> works nicely.
>
> It does, but it doesn't trip off the tongue as well in a TV commercial.
>
> I don't have much of a problem with the first "her" by the way.
> "There goes Michael Schumacher. I don't drive like him. He doesn't drive
> like me."
>
>
Like he, I don't drive.
Marshall Price
>
> Part of communication, if not of grammar, is applying more information
> and knowledge than is explicitly stated.
>
> I think the unspoken understanding generated in most folks is of the
> nature:
>
> "I don't drive in a manner that would lead to me being mistaken for
> him, and /vice versa/".
>
> For some values of "I/me".
>
Shouldn't that be "my being mistaken"?
Marshall Price
> On May 30, 3:35 pm, "Peter Groves" <whate...@whatever.org> wrote:
>
>> ***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes good,
>> like a cigarette should"?
>
> Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
> word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
> should taste."
>
Marshall Price
> On May 30, 3:35 pm, "Peter Groves" <whate...@whatever.org> wrote:
>
>> ***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes good,
>> like a cigarette should"?
>
> Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
> word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
> should taste."
>
Frank ess
My me has been mistaken from time to time, but not my my.
--
Frank ess
Marshall Price
> David Kaye filted:
>> On May 30, 3:35=A0pm, "Peter Groves" <whate...@whatever.org> wrote:
>>
>>> ***So you think "like" is a conjunction, like whoever wrote "It tastes go=
>> od,
>>> like a cigarette should"?
>> Using "like" instead of "as" is not as bad a sin as leaving off the
>> word after "should," as in, "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette
>> should taste."
>
> should do"....r
>
>
The question is, What's the celestial version?
Marshall Price
> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:qc1425tod3kgmoatc...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 May 2009 08:02:43 -0400, MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>>
>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>> her?"
>>>
>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>
> Of course, it should be "You don't drive like she" -- me knew this but me
> has forgotten.
>
> Peter Groves
>
>
>
And _had_ forgot, and all!
Marshall Price
> Peter Groves wrote:
>
>> "mm" <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:qc1425tod3kgmoatc...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 30 May 2009 08:02:43 -0400, MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's a car insurance commercial that's driving me... to distraction.
>>>>
>>>> "You don't drive like her so why are you paying the same premiums as
>>>> her?"
>>>>
>>>> Is that second "her" right or wrong?
>>> They are both wrong.
>> Of course, it should be "You don't drive like she" -- me knew this but me
>> has forgotten.
>
> arrested for identity theft.
>
>
I never understood how a child could be prosecuted "as" an adult.
Assuming he isn't an adult. That's like saying "As President of the
United States, I hereby...", when you're not the president. Now if they
said "as if he were" that would be different.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> I never understood how a child could be prosecuted "as" an adult.
> Assuming he isn't an adult. That's like saying "As President of the
> United States, I hereby...", when you're not the president. Now if they
> said "as if he were" that would be different.
True, but "as" is often used to mean "in the capacity of" or "in the
status of", often with the implication that the status is temporary:
"I'm acting as traffic cop here because there's a badly jammed
intersection and the real police haven't shown up yet." See, e.g.,
<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/as[4]>. Here's an example
based on one in MW: "He holds the official position of editor, but he
works as a proofreader."
BTW, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "You don't drive like
her." "Like is a preposition," and in that example "her" is its
object. It doesn't offend my ear; compare "You don't look like her."
--
Bob Lieblich
Deus ex machina arriving in medias res
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
How do feel you about "as" in the following:
For the purposes of prosecution the child was treated as an adult.
Surely this use of "as" to mean "as if <..> were" is common and
acceptable. Similarly with "like":
He treated me as/like an idiot.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I never understood how a child could be prosecuted "as" an
> adult. Assuming he isn't an adult.
I don't see how you can make that assumption. If someone is tried as
an adult, then legally, for purposes of the trial, they are an adult.
Presumably the court has been given the latitude to determine that
someone in their circumstances may be considered to be an adult for
purposes of prosecution and has so decided.
There's no notion that "child" (or "juvenile" or "minor") and "adult"
necessarily have the same cutoff for all purposes. When I book travel
on Southwest Airlines, my ten-year-old son gets counted as an "adult",
as indeed does anybody two years old or more. In legal codes, the
boundaries, when hard, are different for different purposes and
probably range from about 13 or 14 to about 24 or 25 in most US
states. So there's no real contradiction to say that for some
situations a judge gets to determine which side of the line a person
is on.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you
|don't get good theories. You get
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |theology instead.
(650)857-7572 | --John Lawler
Marshall Price
only I could convince my friend, the grammar nit-picker.
Marshall Price
grudge that I actually bear against the law.
(Why establish laws for children if you're just going to set them
aside whenever you feel like it?)
Marshall Price
> Marshall Price <d021...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> I never understood how a child could be prosecuted "as" an
>> adult. Assuming he isn't an adult.
>
> I don't see how you can make that assumption. If someone is tried as
> an adult, then legally, for purposes of the trial, they are an adult.
> Presumably the court has been given the latitude to determine that
> someone in their circumstances may be considered to be an adult for
> purposes of prosecution and has so decided.
>
> There's no notion that "child" (or "juvenile" or "minor") and "adult"
> necessarily have the same cutoff for all purposes. When I book travel
> on Southwest Airlines, my ten-year-old son gets counted as an "adult",
> as indeed does anybody two years old or more. In legal codes, the
> boundaries, when hard, are different for different purposes and
> probably range from about 13 or 14 to about 24 or 25 in most US
> states. So there's no real contradiction to say that for some
> situations a judge gets to determine which side of the line a person
> is on.
>
treated as adults simply because their crimes were especially
sensational and played up in the media. A young person who's committed
multiple murders wasn't thinking like an adult simply because what he
did was very, very bad. If laws for children are sensible, they ought
always to be applicable to all children, and if not, they ought to be
corrected.
Robert Bannister
> (Why establish laws for children if you're just going to set them
> aside whenever you feel like it?)
>
Rules and laws may be set aside be responsible and irresponsible adults,
but to do that, they first need to know what those rules and laws are.
That is why we teach them to children, so that they can learn what to
rebel against.
--
Rob Bannister