the disappearing "c" ("k" sound)
Pat Durkin
For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
he was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local news
reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
"esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening
of al Qaida.
This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
from the fashion world, I think.
And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
was used later in the same paragraph.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
--
athel
Don Phillipson
news:ipmljp$uk1$1...@dont-email.me...
> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>
> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that he
> was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local news reporter
> stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was "esstatic" about the
> removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening of al Qaida.
>
> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination from
> the fashion world, I think.
No, the common characteristic here is broadcast journalism i.e.
(1) speech rather than writing
(2) extemporised speech.
In people with modern schooling (different from that demanded
of broadcast journalists say 40 years ago) mispronunciation
and mumbled speech are likey to be common. But we may
not justly blame the domains they speak about (whether
fashion or terrorism.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Witziges Rätsel
Prai Jei
space-time continuum:
>> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
>> from the fashion world, I think.
>> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
>> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
>> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
>> was used later in the same paragraph.)
>
> I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
> universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
It's an Italianism that's creeping into English. Soon it will be official,
in spelling as well as in speech.
"Expresso" has an analogy with classical music commentators who "restore" an
apparently missing c in the title of Vaughan Williams' Symphony No.
7, "Sinfonia Antartica". The title is Italian not Latin, and having just
one c in the second word is correct.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
R H Draney
>
>"Expresso" has an analogy with classical music commentators who "restore" an
>apparently missing c in the title of Vaughan Williams' Symphony No.
>7, "Sinfonia Antartica". The title is Italian not Latin, and having just
>one c in the second word is correct.
"Othello" was by Shakespeare; "Otello" was by Verdi....
And in Latin America, Disney's "Pinocchio" was called "Pinocho"....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Joe Fineman
And, in another direction, there are people who say "asterik" -- but I
have seen it explained that they have not actually lost the s; they
have merely moved it over to "stastistics".
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: It is tasteless to recommend one's own taste, but scarcely :||
||: honest to recommend any other. :||
Jerry Friedman
> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>
> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
> he was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local news
> reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
> "esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening
> of al Qaida.
I believe I've heard that too.
> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
> from the fashion world, I think.
> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
> was used later in the same paragraph.)
And in British English, the /k/ has disappeard from "succinct". Some
Americans say it without the /k/ too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ian Dalziel
<pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Athel Cornish-Bowden set the following eddies spiralling through the
>space-time continuum:
>
>>> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
>>> from the fashion world, I think.
>>> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
>>> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
>>> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
>>> was used later in the same paragraph.)
>>
>> I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
>> universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>
>It's an Italianism that's creeping into English. Soon it will be official,
>in spelling as well as in speech.
>
Eh? "Espresso" is Italian, isn't it?
--
Ian D
musika
Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> typed:
Where have you heard that? I have never heard anything but suck-sinkt.
Mind you, I have been telling people for years that flaccid is flak-sid.
--
Ray
UK
Stan Brown
>
> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>
> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
> he was "esstatic" about something.
For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region called
the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It drives me up
the wall.
> Then, today, a CNN local news
> reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
> "esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening
> of al Qaida.
>
> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
> from the fashion world, I think.
> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
> was used later in the same paragraph.)
People aren't going to become less sloppy, but know at least that
you're not the only one it bothers.
--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com
Stan Brown
> Athel Cornish-Bowden set the following eddies spiralling through the
> space-time continuum:
>
> > universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>
> It's an Italianism that's creeping into English. Soon it will be official,
> in spelling as well as in speech.
HUH? Are you saying that Italians say "expresso"?
I don't know about the pronunciation, but by Mondadori's pocket
Italian-English dictionary lists "espresso", and a whole lot of other
es- words that are ex-words in English. It lists no ex- words.
I suppose one might argue that "expresso" (in English) is following
the usual pattern.
Stan Brown
>
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> > On 2011-05-02 18:00:44 +0200, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@msn.com> said:
> >
> >> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
> >>
> >> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing
> >> that he was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local
> >> news reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
> >> "esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent
> >> weakening of al Qaida.
> >>
> >> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory"
> >> abomination from the fashion world, I think. And perhaps I was
> >> more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation because a cousin
> >> read to me only Saturday an instruction on her Kindle that spelled
> >> "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling was used later in
> >> the same paragraph.)
> >
> > I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
> > universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>
> And, in another direction, there are people who say "asterik" -- but I
> have seen it explained that they have not actually lost the s; they
> have merely moved it over to "stastistics".
In /Double Star/, Heinlein elides the narrator's ceremony of adoption
into a Martian nest with "That line of astericks represents the
ceremony." I've never known whether that was Heinlein, his publisher,
or the printer.
Jerry Friedman
> Innews:9bd9a23f-5d9e-40d6...@y27g2000prb.googlegroups.com,
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> typed:
>
>
>
> > On May 2, 10:00 am, "Pat Durkin" <durki...@msn.com> wrote:
> >> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>
> >> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
> >> he was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local news
> >> reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
> >> "esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening
> >> of al Qaida.
>
> > I believe I've heard that too.
>
> >> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
> >> from the fashion world, I think.
> >> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
> >> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
> >> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
> >> was used later in the same paragraph.)
>
> > And in British English, the /k/ has disappeard from "succinct".
>
> [snip]
>
> Where have you heard that? I have never heard anything but suck-sinkt.
Woops. Neither has the OED. But I have heard it from Americans.
> Mind you, I have been telling people for years that flaccid is flak-sid.
Obviously my "succinct" was a typo for "flaccid".
--
Jerry Friedman
Stephen
I'm horrified. I haven't heard esstatic or assessory and hope I never will.
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
Stephen
Flaccid was once pronounced flaxid, and still is occasionally.
And coccyx has gone or is going the other way, from coxicks to cockicks.
Succinct seems very likely to follow "flaccid".
--
Stephen
Ballina, NSW
tony cooper
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On Mon, 2 May 2011 11:00:44 -0500, Pat Durkin wrote:
>>
>> Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>>
>> For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
>> he was "esstatic" about something.
>
>For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region called
>the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It drives me up
>the wall.
The words are not heard all that frequently, though. On the other
hand, you can scarcely go a day without hearing "axed" for "asked".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
> On Mon, 2 May 2011 19:04:38 -0400, Stan Brown
...
> >For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region called
> >the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It drives me up
> >the wall.
It's older than a few decades. "Arctic" is from French "artique",
from Latin "articus" or "arcticus", from Greek "arkhtikhos" (OED).
AHD gives the /k/ pronunciation first. The OED, to my surprise, gives
on the /k/ pronunciation.
> The words are not heard all that frequently, though. On the other
> hand, you can scarcely go a day without hearing "axed" for "asked".
That may depend on where you live. I don't hear it here, though I do
hear "asterik" and "eccetera".
--
Jerry Friedman
tony cooper
Just watch the news. Of course, I watch sports news and you may not.
Jonathan Morton
news:8e511712-50f1-4130...@y27g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Mind you, I have been telling people for years that flaccid is flak-sid.
>
>Obviously my "succinct" was a typo for "flaccid".
That joke rather flopped.
Regards
Jonathan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
In Chile under the dictatorship Pinochet was known as Pinocho (or Pin8
in cartoons), by part of the population, anyway.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Athel Cornish-Bowden set the following eddies spiralling through the
> space-time continuum:
>
>>> This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
>>> from the fashion world, I think.
>>> And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
>>> because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
>>> Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
>>> was used later in the same paragraph.)
>>
>> I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
>> universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>
> It's an Italianism that's creeping into English.
Are you sure? I've always seen it written and heard it pronounced with
s in Italy, and googling for pages in Italian yields ten times as many
with s as with x.
> Soon it will be official,
> in spelling as well as in speech.
>
> "Expresso" has an analogy with classical music commentators who "restore" an
> apparently missing c in the title of Vaughan Williams' Symphony No.
> 7, "Sinfonia Antartica". The title is Italian not Latin, and having just
> one c in the second word is correct.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
I have heard it in Northern Ireland along with "assessible" for
"accessible" and similar. I don't think I've heard "sussess" for
"success".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
And people will insist an saying "bird" instead of "brid".
yangg
> On May 2, 8:45 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:> On Mon, 2 May 2011 19:04:38 -0400, Stan Brown
> > <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > >For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region called
> > >the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It drives me up
> > >the wall.
>
> It's older than a few decades. "Arctic" is from French "artique",
False
arctique with -c-.
There is no *artique.
This sounds like article with no final -l-.
A.
***
bob
Do you object to it because you think it should be properly anglicised
to "expressed coffee", that it is only a partial anglicism, or that no
attempt should be made to translate the term? I definitely recall
older people 20 years ago in the London area asking for a "milky
coffee" for what now would be requested as a "latte" (though almost
never "cafe latte").
Robin
CDB
> tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> ...
>>> For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region
>>> called the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It
>>> drives me up the wall.
>
> It's older than a few decades. "Arctic" is from French "artique",
> from Latin "articus" or "arcticus", from Greek "arkhtikhos" (OED).
>>
expect "k"s, for "kappa"s.
>>
> AHD gives the /k/ pronunciation first. The OED, to my surprise,
> gives on the /k/ pronunciation.
>
>> The words are not heard all that frequently, though. On the other
>> hand, you can scarcely go a day without hearing "axed" for "asked".
>
> That may depend on where you live. I don't hear it here, though I
> do hear "asterik" and "eccetera".
>>
Peter Moylan
It's been "espresso" in English for so long now that there's no point in
anglicising it.
"Latte" has made it into AusE only half-way. The word can be found at
almost any coffee shop, but everyone seems to pronounce it as "laaaate",
with a long first vowel.
I've noticed, by the way, that all the franchised mass-production (and
very weak) coffee shops seem to employ barristers these days.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Prai Jei
continuum:
> On Mon, 02 May 2011 19:38:11 +0100, Prai Jei wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden set the following eddies spiralling through the
>> space-time continuum:
>>
>> > I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
>> > universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>>
>> It's an Italianism that's creeping into English. Soon it will be
>> official, in spelling as well as in speech.
>
> HUH? Are you saying that Italians say "expresso"?
>
> I don't know about the pronunciation, but by Mondadori's pocket
> Italian-English dictionary lists "espresso", and a whole lot of other
> es- words that are ex-words in English. It lists no ex- words.
>
> I suppose one might argue that "expresso" (in English) is following
> the usual pattern.
I mean quite the reverse - that the *loss* of the k sound before s or
another incompatible consonant, is an Italianism, so "Antartica" instead
of "Antarctica", so "espresso" instead of a hypothetical
original "expresso". So "ditty" from Italian "ditti" for a poem,
literally "things spoken", from Latin "dicti", contrasted with
German "Dicht", Scand "dikt" which preserve the k sound.
Jerry Friedman
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > ...
> >>> For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region
> >>> called the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It
> >>> drives me up the wall.
>
> > It's older than a few decades. "Arctic" is from French "artique",
> > from Latin "articus" or "arcticus", from Greek "arkhtikhos" (OED).
>
> A side issue, but what dictionary did those "kh"s come from? I would
> expect "k"s, for "kappa"s.
The OED. Possibly, now that you mention it, I misread their kappas as
chis.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> On May 3, 5:27 am, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On May 2, 8:45 pm, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:> On Mon, 2 May 2011 19:04:38 -0400, Stan Brown
> > > <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > ...
>
> > > >For the past few *decades* I have heard about that cold region called
> > > >the "Artic" and the other one called the "Antartic". It drives me up
> > > >the wall.
>
> > It's older than a few decades. "Arctic" is from French "artique",
>
> ***
> False
>
> arctique with -c-.
>
> There is no *artique.
Sorry, I should have written "Old French".
--
Jerry Friedman
Stan Brown
> So "ditty" from Italian "ditti" for a poem,
> literally "things spoken",
Nice! I never thought about the origin of "ditty" before.
What a rich tapestry is the English language!
James Hogg
> On Tue, 03 May 2011 19:18:39 +0100, Prai Jei wrote:
>> So "ditty" from Italian "ditti" for a poem,
>> literally "things spoken",
>
> Nice! I never thought about the origin of "ditty" before.
>
> What a rich tapestry is the English language!
All the Oxford dictionaries give a slightly different origin. Here's
what the OED says:
"Middle English dite, ditee, < Old French dité, ditté, originally ditié,
in 17th cent. dictié, composition, treatise < Latin dictatum thing
dictated, lesson, exercise, neuter past participle of dictare to dictate."
The earliest example is from about 1300.
--
James
Roland Hutchinson
That's nothing: you should see the joints that employ solicitors.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
LFS
> On Wed, 04 May 2011 00:21:24 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> bob wrote:
>>> On May 2, 7:01 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I guess it's just the flip side of one of my pet peeves: the almost
>>>> universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
>>> Do you object to it because you think it should be properly anglicised
>>> to "expressed coffee", that it is only a partial anglicism, or that no
>>> attempt should be made to translate the term? I definitely recall
>>> older people 20 years ago in the London area asking for a "milky
>>> coffee" for what now would be requested as a "latte" (though almost
>>> never "cafe latte").
>> It's been "espresso" in English for so long now that there's no point in
>> anglicising it.
>>
>> "Latte" has made it into AusE only half-way. The word can be found at
>> almost any coffee shop, but everyone seems to pronounce it as "laaaate",
>> with a long first vowel.
>>
>> I've noticed, by the way, that all the franchised mass-production (and
>> very weak) coffee shops seem to employ barristers these days.
>
> That's nothing: you should see the joints that employ solicitors.
>
<chortle>
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
CDB
Mike Lyle
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Roland Hutchinson wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 May 2011 00:21:24 +1000, Peter Moylan wrote:
[...]
>>> "Latte" has made it into AusE only half-way. The word can be found at
>>> almost any coffee shop, but everyone seems to pronounce it as "laaaate",
>>> with a long first vowel.
>>>
>>> I've noticed, by the way, that all the franchised mass-production (and
>>> very weak) coffee shops seem to employ barristers these days.
>>
>> That's nothing: you should see the joints that employ solicitors.
>>
>
><chortle>
What a ttorn-on!
--
Mike.
Jerry Friedman
> On Mon, 02 May 2011 17:20:39 -0400, Joe Fineman wrote:
> > And, in another direction, there are people who say "asterik" -- but I
> > have seen it explained that they have not actually lost the s; they
> > have merely moved it over to "stastistics".
>
> In /Double Star/, Heinlein elides the narrator's ceremony of adoption
> into a Martian nest with "That line of astericks represents the
> ceremony." I've never known whether that was Heinlein, his publisher,
> or the printer.
FWIW, I don't recall that spelling from when I had a paperback copy in
the '70s, and there's a good chance I'd have noticed.
--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Bannister
> And, on a slightly different note, "secketary".
That's disgusting. What's wrong with "sekatree"?
--
Robert Bannister
Richard Bollard
Yebbut it is a word meaning "expressed" not a word meaning "express".
There's nothing express about making espresso coffee, in fact it is
quite slow.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Jerry Friedman
They were kappas, much more x-shaped than the ones American physicists
use. "Arktikos".
--
Jerry Friedman
Stan Brown
Thanks. Also, FWIW, mine is a Signet Science Fiction paperback,
first printing (1957), and I've just confirmed that it really does
say "astericks".
Considering that it's over 50 years old, I'm not surprised that the
paper has started crumbling and the binding is almost gone. Signet
paperbacks were cheaply made, and the paper was pulp, but I bought a
*lot* of them back then. But even in 1950s dollars, 60 cents a pop
was a bargain.
CDB
> CDB wrote:
>
>> And, on a slightly different note, "secketary".
>
> That's disgusting. What's wrong with "sekatree"?
>>
the first syllable of the word have a reputation for pretentiousness
to keep up, and so are careful to pronounce the "r".
JimboCat
> On 2011-05-02 18:00:44 +0200, "Pat Durkin" <durki...@msn.com> said:
>
> > Sorry if this comes across as just another "pet peeve".
>
> > For the past few months I have heard a sports figure announcing that
> > he was "esstatic" about something. Then, today, a CNN local news
> > reporter stated that the Islamic community in (Detroit?) was
> > "esstatic" about the removal of O bin Laden, and subsequent weakening
> > of al Qaida.
>
> > This is simply an extension of the "accessory/assessory" abomination
> > from the fashion world, I think.
> > And perhaps I was more than usually sensitized to this pronunciation
> > because a cousin read to me only Saturday an instruction on her
> > Kindle that spelled "accessing" as "assessing" (the correct spelling
> > was used later in the same paragraph.)
>
> universal pronunciation of "espresso" (as in coffee) as "expresso".
True story: there was a coffee place locally named "Federal Espresso".
Federal Express sued them for trademark infringement and they changed
it to "Ex Federal Espresso". Federal Express sued again.
They folded. Went out of business. Kaput.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Barak Obama has launched more cruise missiles than all other Nobel
Peace Prize winners combined." [viral]
Mike Lyle
"Kappa" is alpha-height, while "chi" should extend below the line.
--
Mike.
Ian Jackson
<jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com> writes
>"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:8e511712-50f1-4130...@y27g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Mind you, I have been telling people for years that flaccid is flak-sid.
>>
>
>That joke rather flopped.
>
It occasionally happens to everyone. Don't be too hard on yourself.
--
Ian
franzi
Anyone can be a shrinking violet on a bad day. Love isn't what it used
to be: