record artist!
esara123
do not call him so? I just heard in the radio: whatever_his_name is a record
artist...
Troy Steadman
Probably "recording artist"? Singer, pop star, recording artist.
ray o'hara
"esara123" <esar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:M4pKe.8427$6d4.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Recording artist.
It means they have a CD out. Any musician who has been commercially recorded
is a recording artist. It is usually used when introducing the act by
saying"Tonight we have Alligator Records recording artist ALBERT COLLINS!"
It is a free plug for the record company and helps the audience know where
to find the artists material.
Areff
I think "recording artist" tends to imply that it's someone who isn't
otherwise well-known as a performer.
de...@aol.com
"Artist", musically, implies sooooo much more than "singer". An
"artist" (musically) can be a singer, lyp-syncher (in the case of Nsync
and Britney Spears...AND Duff!), a guitar player, a keyboard player, a
drummer, a producer, a DJ, someone who makes dance beats, a rapper, a
songwriter, possibly a dancer, ALL OF THE ABOVE (in the case of
T.A.F.T.A.K.F.K.A.P.), etc, etc, etc--BASICALLY, ANYONE who's ever
released an album in their own name, whether they sang on it, spoke on
it, rapped on it, played bass on it, mixed together a bunch of dance
songs, created beatz for various dance or hip-hop songs, farted on it,
etc, is a musical "artist". Even tho peeps like Billary [YES, it's won
a Grammy!!], John Williams, Carlos Santana, Lil' Jon, 2Pac, Jeff
Foxworthy, Paul Oakenfold, Stonebridge, Yanni, Yoko Ono, Fabio, Mynt,
Basement Jackxx, Bijourx, Neptunes, DJ Sammy, Wynona, Milli Vanilla,
Abdulla, and Ashlee Simpson don't actually sing SHIT and never have,
never will, they are still musicians (well, except for Sampson and
Spears) who've released albums, singles, music videos in their names,
and won awards for "THEIR" music (NOT their singing). Hence, they're
artists.
BUT..."artist" has a tendency to get confused with someone who paints
or sculpts or whatnot. I actually was just thinking about how one of
the members of Blink 182 responded "Von Gogh" when Carson Daly once
asked them which "artist" he'd most want to be trapped on a dessert
island with. (He didn't do it to be bizarre or an ass; he simply
honestly thought that Carson was axing him a bizarre question.) So,
"music artist".
R H Draney
>
>esara123 wrote:
>> What does that term mean? does it mean he/she is a singer? if yes why they
>> do not call him so? I just heard in the radio: whatever_his_name is a record
>> artist...
>
>"Artist", musically, implies sooooo much more than "singer". An
>"artist" (musically) can be a singer, lyp-syncher (in the case of Nsync
>and Britney Spears...AND Duff!)
I think you mean Simpson...neither Hilary nor Haylie is unable to sing....
>a guitar player, a keyboard player, a
>drummer, a producer, a DJ, someone who makes dance beats, a rapper, a
>songwriter, possibly a dancer, ALL OF THE ABOVE (in the case of
>T.A.F.T.A.K.F.K.A.P.), etc, etc, etc--BASICALLY, ANYONE who's ever
>released an album in their own name, whether they sang on it, spoke on
>it, rapped on it, played bass on it, mixed together a bunch of dance
>songs, created beatz for various dance or hip-hop songs, farted on it,
>etc, is a musical "artist". Even tho peeps like Billary [YES, it's won
>a Grammy!!], John Williams, Carlos Santana, Lil' Jon, 2Pac, Jeff
>Foxworthy, Paul Oakenfold, Stonebridge, Yanni, Yoko Ono, Fabio, Mynt,
>Basement Jackxx, Bijourx, Neptunes, DJ Sammy, Wynona, Milli Vanilla,
>Abdulla, and Ashlee Simpson don't actually sing SHIT and never have,
>never will, they are still musicians (well, except for Sampson and
>Spears) who've released albums, singles, music videos in their names,
>and won awards for "THEIR" music (NOT their singing). Hence, they're
>artists.
>
>BUT..."artist" has a tendency to get confused with someone who paints
>or sculpts or whatnot. I actually was just thinking about how one of
>the members of Blink 182 responded "Von Gogh" when Carson Daly once
>asked them which "artist" he'd most want to be trapped on a dessert
>island with. (He didn't do it to be bizarre or an ass; he simply
>honestly thought that Carson was axing him a bizarre question.) So,
>"music artist".
I was trapped on a dessert island once...took me weeks to get the raspberry
syrup out of my socks....r
de...@aol.com
R H Draney wrote:
> de...@aol.com filted:
> >
> >esara123 wrote:
> >> What does that term mean? does it mean he/she is a singer? if yes why they
> >> do not call him so? I just heard in the radio: whatever_his_name is a record
> >> artist...
> >
> >"Artist", musically, implies sooooo much more than "singer". An
> >"artist" (musically) can be a singer, lyp-syncher (in the case of Nsync
> >and Britney Spears...AND Duff!)
>
> I think you mean Simpson...neither Hilary nor Haylie is unable to sing....
How U Knowz?
Really??? Was Colonel Sanders there too? THAT'S who I'D pick if *I*
had to pick an "artist".
ray o'hara
"Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ddfr9a$h1o$1...@news.wss.yale.edu...
No ,I disagree.I think is is used as a plug so folks know that the artist
has records.
Buy Albert Collins Records"Genuine house rockin music" I'm goint to see Coco
Montoya tonight at the Regatta Bar in Boston.Coco honed his chops playin for
Albert in the late 70s early 80s before on to John Mayall's
Bluesbreaker.,Now he has his own band.
R H Draney
>> >"artist" (musically) can be a singer, lyp-syncher (in the case of Nsync
>> >and Britney Spears...AND Duff!)
>>
>> I think you mean Simpson...neither Hilary nor Haylie is unable to sing....
>
>How U Knowz?
They hang out near here...Hilary's first-ever concert appearance was at a place
less than two miles from my house...and a lot of Phoenix area businesses have
had them just wander in from time to time....
I'm not really in Hil's demographic, and don't often shop in the stores where
she's likely to put in an impromptu appearance...I did run into Alice Cooper at
someone else's concert a while back....
>> I was trapped on a dessert island once...took me weeks to get the raspberry
>> syrup out of my socks....r
>
>Really??? Was Colonel Sanders there too? THAT'S who I'D pick if *I*
>had to pick an "artist".
He was a force to be reckoned with, that's for sure....r
Tony Cooper
wrote:
> No ,I disagree.I think is is used as a plug so folks know that the artist
>has records.
>Buy Albert Collins Records"Genuine house rockin music" I'm goint to see Coco
>Montoya tonight at the Regatta Bar in Boston.Coco honed his chops playin for
>Albert in the late 70s early 80s before on to John Mayall's
>Bluesbreaker.,Now he has his own band.
>
I don't think you "hone chops". I thought you either had chops or
didn't. I think it's like being an overnight success. You do
something for years and years and all of a sudden you have chops.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>
>I'm not really in Hil's demographic, and don't often shop in the stores where
>she's likely to put in an impromptu appearance...I did run into Alice Cooper at
>someone else's concert a while back....
>
You would be more likely to run into Alice Cooper on a golf cart. He
has a 4 handicap.
Areff
No, chops are definitely the result of practice, Coop. You can't be born
with it. Still, I wonder whether "hone" is the right verb.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
They may be the result of practice, but practice doesn't get a
musician his "chops". The musician never has his own chops. Chops
are something that someone else thinks you have. It is an expression
of respect by others, and not something possessed by the person that
has them. A musician earns his chops, but never has them.
Ross Howard
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
We've been here before. You can have your own chops, but not to boast
about. For example, you can also work on (a better verb than hone, I
agree with Areff) your chops if they're a bit tired/rusty. And, of
course, you can -- God forbid -- lose them.
I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops are
nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time, noodling
around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day". That's
recognition of X's technical ability, but not really respect.
When Areff's right, he's right. Chops aren't congenital skills;
they're acquired little by little, with hours and hours of scales,
repetition and pissed-off neighbours.
Here's how someone who should know -- a guy who's variously been a
member of George Clinton's, James Brown's, Prince's and Maceo Parker's
horn sections -- uses the term:
It was during the time that P-Funk's activity had slowed to a
crawl. Keyboards were the new horns at the time. So I wasn't
working as much as a musician and my chops had began to
deteriorate, although I still had a good musical mind.
I was sitting on a Sunday afternoon jam session when
this bassist liked the way I was able to bring out the emotion
of this jazz ballad. So he invited me to come play with his
group at Birdland West. They counted off "two bass hit", but
at a lightning fast tempo. Now playing trombone is hard enough
to play quick, but without my chops being up to the task, it
was a disaster! At the end of the song, the bassist looked at
me and snickered mockingly. He said, "You can't play fast, can
you?"
This shows quite clearly, I reckon, that "chops" are about being able
to play a million notes a minute rather than having a "musical mind".
They're just the muso's equivalent of being "on form" or "at the top
of your game". They're the bench presses, not the touchdown plays.
--
Ross Howard
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I didn't say they were congenital. I said - see above - that they are
a result of being in the biz for years and years until the person is
recognized by others as being good. I think there is a congenital
aspect since practice alone will not result in enough skills.
I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
chops.
Chops are not the ability to riff, but the agreement of others that
you can riff with the best.
Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
> It was during the time that P-Funk's activity had slowed to a
> crawl. Keyboards were the new horns at the time. So I wasn't
> working as much as a musician and my chops had began to
> deteriorate, although I still had a good musical mind.
> I was sitting on a Sunday afternoon jam session when
> this bassist liked the way I was able to bring out the emotion
> of this jazz ballad. So he invited me to come play with his
> group at Birdland West. They counted off "two bass hit", but
> at a lightning fast tempo. Now playing trombone is hard enough
> to play quick, but without my chops being up to the task, it
> was a disaster! At the end of the song, the bassist looked at
> me and snickered mockingly. He said, "You can't play fast, can
> you?"
I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
>
>This shows quite clearly, I reckon, that "chops" are about being able
>to play a million notes a minute rather than having a "musical mind".
>They're just the muso's equivalent of being "on form" or "at the top
>of your game". They're the bench presses, not the touchdown plays.
I'd think the usual use would be the bassist saying "You have your
chops, but you weren't showing them today." meaning "I respect your
abilities, but this wasn't a good example of them."
Areff
[re: chops]
> I didn't say they were congenital. I said - see above - that they are
> a result of being in the biz for years and years until the person is
> recognized by others as being good. I think there is a congenital
> aspect since practice alone will not result in enough skills.
Possibly, though the only real congenital aspect is probably the ability
to tolerate long hours of practicing. What's this "the biz"? A musician
can have good "chops" even if he's an amateur and even if he's unknown.
> I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
> skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
> liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
> chops.
Not true. If we're talking about musicians, there's basically an
objective standard of good chops. It's not a subjective standard, or not
purely a subjective standard, anyway.
[Ross:]
>> It was during the time that P-Funk's activity had slowed to a
>> crawl. Keyboards were the new horns at the time. So I wasn't
>> working as much as a musician and my chops had began to
>> deteriorate, although I still had a good musical mind.
>> I was sitting on a Sunday afternoon jam session when
>> this bassist liked the way I was able to bring out the emotion
>> of this jazz ballad. So he invited me to come play with his
>> group at Birdland West. They counted off "two bass hit", but
>> at a lightning fast tempo. Now playing trombone is hard enough
>> to play quick, but without my chops being up to the task, it
>> was a disaster! At the end of the song, the bassist looked at
>> me and snickered mockingly. He said, "You can't play fast, can
>> you?"
>
> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
It's the main use I know of. Can you provide an example of how you
mistakenly think "chops" is used?
> I'd think the usual use would be the bassist saying "You have your
> chops, but you weren't showing them today." meaning "I respect your
> abilities, but this wasn't a good example of them."
That's incorrect. If you have chops, you'd be able to show them. A
musician could deliberately hide his chops to cover up his ability, but it
would be odd to do so.
Clearly, Coop, you do not understand the usage of "chops". Google.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
>
>It's the main use I know of. Can you provide an example of how you
>mistakenly think "chops" is used?
http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
"A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
raised on Paul Butterfield’s rockin’ blues-harp playing." is the only
way that I'd use the term.
Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
However, most references the web do agree with your definition.
BTW, back to square one: where:
"Severinsen had honed his chops with Charlie Barnet’s highly acclaimed
big band, joining greats like Clark Terry in the horn section. Barnet
led one of the first racially integrated bands, and brought his band
to previously segregated venues" at
http://www.npr.org/programs/btaylor/archive/severinson.html
I guess if you can really "hone" your chops, you can play them.
>Clearly, Coop, you do not understand the usage of "chops". Google.
Not this use of "chops", but I understand the usage that I've heard.
It seems that there are two usages.
Perhaps my view is flavored by what I've come across. "Chops" in the
business world have only to do with reputation. For example, some
quotes from the web:
"Before Ann opened the doors to Bouchard Marketing nearly a decade
ago, she worked hard earning her marketing chops at financial
institutions across California."
"However Starling regards this as part of the entrepreneurial history
of the company which harks back to his father, who ‘cut his marketing
chops’ through experience and with a measure of failure as well as
success."
"Themis Group to ally with Nevrax
Ryzom publisher picks up customer support and marketing chops for its
upcoming MMORPG."
"Carla Harris has some pretty fierce financial chops."
(And so on for a couple of hundred thousand other sites. Google
marketing chops, or financial chops)
You poor, deprived people that don't have business-world experience
just aren't aware of the world of alternative usages of words.
A person only exposed to the business side would say you are wrong. A
person only exposed to music would say that I am wrong. One feature
of aue is that we expose one side to the other side.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:54:57 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
>>
>>It's the main use I know of. Can you provide an example of how you
>>mistakenly think "chops" is used?
>
>
>
> http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
> "A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
> earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
> raised on Paul Butterfield’s rockin’ blues-harp playing." is the only
> way that I'd use the term.
>
> Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
>
you use your lips, and tongue to produce the note. You can describe a
trumpet player as having 'magnificent chops' because he can hit both
high and low notes with facility. Also, in brass instrument playing you
can talk about how you 'develop your chops' or how a recent dental
appointment has 'ruined your chops'. In this usage, 'chops' actually
refers to the entire physical arrangement that enables you to play a
brass instrument well - your lung capacity, teeth, tongue, lips and
facial muscles are all part of your 'chops'. The only thing that isn't
is your musical ability apart from that.
--
Most of us are staring at a piece of furniture for half the time we
are not sleeping or working - "Get a Life!" by David Rurke and Jean
Lotus, White Dot
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Skitt
> Ross Howard wrote:
>> I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops
>> are nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time, noodling
>> around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day". That's
>> recognition of X's technical ability, but not really respect.
[...]
> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
The exact meaning of "chops" aside, there's something weird going on here.
When Ross wrote "X's chops are nothing compared with Y's ...", I can take it
only as X's chops are inferior to Y's chops. You know -- like "that's
nothing compared to what I can do" sort of comparison. That's why I'm
surprised that Tony thinks that you meant "X is more widely recognized as
good at playing the (instrument) than is Y."
I know that I'm off the original subject, but the "X is nothing compared to
Y" to me means that Y is the "something", and X the "nothing". Am I wrong?
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Areff
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:54:57 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
>>
>>It's the main use I know of. Can you provide an example of how you
>>mistakenly think "chops" is used?
>
>
> http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
> "A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
> earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
> way that I'd use the term.
>
> Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
I'm not sure it does refer to reputation. I think it can be understood to
mean that he began to acquire great technical proficiency in the 1960s.
Where are you getting the reputation idea from?
> Perhaps my view is flavored by what I've come across. "Chops" in the
> business world have only to do with reputation. For example, some
> quotes from the web:
>
> "Before Ann opened the doors to Bouchard Marketing nearly a decade
> ago, she worked hard earning her marketing chops at financial
> institutions across California."
Again, I don't see that as referring to reputation. It refers to skills,
not fame.
> "However Starling regards this as part of the entrepreneurial history
> of the company which harks back to his father, who cut his marketing
> chops through experience and with a measure of failure as well as
> success."
Again, skills, not reputation.
> "Themis Group to ally with Nevrax
> Ryzom publisher picks up customer support and marketing chops for its
> upcoming MMORPG."
I read that as meaning skills at marketing, not reputation for marketing.
I guess in a business context it can be a subtle difference.
> "Carla Harris has some pretty fierce financial chops."
Again, I read that as skills, not reputation per se. Obviously the two
can be connected.
> You poor, deprived people that don't have business-world experience
> just aren't aware of the world of alternative usages of words.
I have business-world experience, Coop. No medical equipment experience,
however.
> A person only exposed to the business side would say you are wrong. A
> person only exposed to music would say that I am wrong. One feature
> of aue is that we expose one side to the other side.
The thing is, "chops", like "gig", is primarily a musician word. I've
heard "gig" used in a business/occupational context, but that doesn't
change the fact that it primarily refers to music.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Ross Howard wrote:
>
>>> I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops
>>> are nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time, noodling
>>> around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day". That's
>>> recognition of X's technical ability, but not really respect.
>
>[...]
>
>> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
>> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
>> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
>> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
>
>The exact meaning of "chops" aside, there's something weird going on here.
>When Ross wrote "X's chops are nothing compared with Y's ...", I can take it
>only as X's chops are inferior to Y's chops. You know -- like "that's
>nothing compared to what I can do" sort of comparison. That's why I'm
>surprised that Tony thinks that you meant "X is more widely recognized as
>good at playing the (instrument) than is Y."
It's developed that there are several versions of what "chops" is. I
say reputation, but that's based on my exposure to the work in a
business context. Others say it is playing with skill. Brooks just
entered the room and said it's developing the jaw or something.
It seems to be a matter of what the person commenting is used to
seeing/hearing, and the other versions are wrong. I'm as guilty of
that as Areff is.
But, to address your question of how I can read the sentence as I did,
it's just a transposing of X and Y in my sentence. An error in
writing, but not an error in thinking. I knew what I meant to say,
but said the opposite.
Nothing weird. Just an example of Murray's bug-a-boo in writing
without thinking.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:54:57 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
>>>
>>>It's the main use I know of. Can you provide an example of how you
>>>mistakenly think "chops" is used?
>>
>>
>> http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
>> "A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
>> earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
>> raised on Paul Butterfields rockin blues-harp playing." is the only
>> way that I'd use the term.
>>
>> Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
>
>I'm not sure it does refer to reputation. I think it can be understood to
>mean that he began to acquire great technical proficiency in the 1960s.
>Where are you getting the reputation idea from?
You *could* understand it to mean he developed bloodhound jowls, but
that's not the way I understand it. I got the idea from "earns". You
don't "earn" technical proficiency.
>> Perhaps my view is flavored by what I've come across. "Chops" in the
>> business world have only to do with reputation. For example, some
>> quotes from the web:
>>
>> "Before Ann opened the doors to Bouchard Marketing nearly a decade
>> ago, she worked hard earning her marketing chops at financial
>> institutions across California."
>
>Again, I don't see that as referring to reputation. It refers to skills,
>not fame.
Again, I don't agree. I think it refers to having earned her street
cred and would be thus able to be successful at Bouchard Marketing.
Same with the rest.
This is a "sandwich" thing to you. If it doesn't fit your own
experience, it isn't right.
>> A person only exposed to the business side would say you are wrong. A
>> person only exposed to music would say that I am wrong. One feature
>> of aue is that we expose one side to the other side.
>
>The thing is, "chops", like "gig", is primarily a musician word. I've
>heard "gig" used in a business/occupational context, but that doesn't
>change the fact that it primarily refers to music.
What? A term "belongs* to a field? We don't adapt terms from one
field and use them in another? That strikes a wrong note with me. It
isn't cool to think that.
Tony Cooper
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:12:26 -0700, "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Ross Howard wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops
>>>> are nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time, noodling
>>>> around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day". That's
>>>> recognition of X's technical ability, but not really respect.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
>>> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
>>> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
>>> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
>>
>>The exact meaning of "chops" aside, there's something weird going on here.
>>When Ross wrote "X's chops are nothing compared with Y's ...", I can take it
>>only as X's chops are inferior to Y's chops. You know -- like "that's
>>nothing compared to what I can do" sort of comparison. That's why I'm
>>surprised that Tony thinks that you meant "X is more widely recognized as
>>good at playing the (instrument) than is Y."
>
>It's developed that there are several versions of what "chops" is. I
>say reputation, but that's based on my exposure to the work
to the word, not work
> in a
>business context. Others say it is playing with skill. Brooks just
>entered the room and said it's developing the jaw or something.
>
>It seems to be a matter of what the person commenting is used to
>seeing/hearing, and the other versions are wrong. I'm as guilty of
>that as Areff is.
>
>But, to address your question of how I can read the sentence as I did,
>it's just a transposing of X and Y in my sentence. An error in
>writing, but not an error in thinking. I knew what I meant to say,
>but said the opposite.
>
>Nothing weird. Just an example of Murray's bug-a-boo in writing
>without thinking.
ibid
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> Ross Howard wrote:
>>>> I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops
>>>> are nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time,
>>>> noodling around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day".
>>>> That's recognition of X's technical ability, but not really
>>>> respect.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
>>> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
>>> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
>>> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
>>
>> The exact meaning of "chops" aside, there's something weird going on
>> here. When Ross wrote "X's chops are nothing compared with Y's ...",
>> I can take it only as X's chops are inferior to Y's chops. You know
>> -- like "that's nothing compared to what I can do" sort of
>> comparison. That's why I'm surprised that Tony thinks that you
>> meant "X is more widely recognized as good at playing the
>> (instrument) than is Y."
[...]
> But, to address your question of how I can read the sentence as I did,
> it's just a transposing of X and Y in my sentence. An error in
> writing, but not an error in thinking. I knew what I meant to say,
> but said the opposite.
[...]
Akcherly, it was Ross who started the "weird thing" by writing "X's chops
are nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time ...".
The "but" is what throws things off. I expected an "and". I mean, didn't
he mean to say that both the guy's chops and solos are lousy? With the
"but" there seems to be an implied contrast, and that made me wonder if
something had gone wrong in forming the sentence, and whether I'm
interpreting it correctly.
Areff
> It's developed that there are several versions of what "chops" is. I
> say reputation, but that's based on my exposure to the work in a
> business context. Others say it is playing with skill. Brooks just
> entered the room and said it's developing the jaw or something.
>
> It seems to be a matter of what the person commenting is used to
> seeing/hearing, and the other versions are wrong. I'm as guilty of
> that as Areff is.
Here, though, Coop, I'm afraid that your view of what "chops" means is
simply incorrect. You've been misunderstanding the meaning for however
many years you've been seeing it in a business context. I've seen no
evidence that business "chops" means anything other than an analogizing of
musician "chops" to a business context. That is, "chops" still refers to
technical proficiency. We can imagine other contexts too. For example,
Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops are second to none. That doesn't
mean he has some great reputation as a radio operator (outside of AUE) --
not necessarily, anyway.
> Nothing weird. Just an example of Murray's bug-a-boo
Oy!
As for Peter H.M.S. Brooks (AUE's Second-Favorite South African), he seems
to be describing the older sense of "chops", which apparently did
originally refer specifically to basic skills in trumpet playing.
Areff
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:02:33 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
>>> "A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
>>> earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
>>> raised on Paul Butterfields rockin blues-harp playing." is the only
>>> way that I'd use the term.
>>>
>>> Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
>>
>>I'm not sure it does refer to reputation. I think it can be understood to
>>mean that he began to acquire great technical proficiency in the 1960s.
>>Where are you getting the reputation idea from?
>
> You *could* understand it to mean he developed bloodhound jowls, but
> that's not the way I understand it. I got the idea from "earns". You
> don't "earn" technical proficiency.
Coop, have you ever attempted to play a musical instrument? No musician
is born technically proficient. Otherwise I'd be a great musician by
now. Do we have to discuss the usage of "earn"?
>>> Perhaps my view is flavored by what I've come across. "Chops" in the
>>> business world have only to do with reputation. For example, some
>>> quotes from the web:
>>>
>>> "Before Ann opened the doors to Bouchard Marketing nearly a decade
>>> ago, she worked hard earning her marketing chops at financial
>>> institutions across California."
>>
>>Again, I don't see that as referring to reputation. It refers to skills,
>>not fame.
>
> Again, I don't agree. I think it refers to having earned her street
> cred and would be thus able to be successful at Bouchard Marketing.
> Same with the rest.
If so, then it's a misusage by the writer. However, it makes more sense
to think of it as acquiring skills as a marketing professional.
> This is a "sandwich" thing to you. If it doesn't fit your own
> experience, it isn't right.
No, it's more like an Occam's razor thing. The basic meaning of "chops"
remains the musician meaning. As applied to business, it should refer to
"skills at a particular sort of job" -- not reputation. If it means
reputation, you have to explain how a term referring to skill in music
came to mean reputation in business. It's easier to see how a term
referring to skill in music came to mean skill in business.
Skitt
> The basic meaning of
> "chops" remains the musician meaning. As applied to business, it
> should refer to "skills at a particular sort of job" -- not
> reputation. If it means reputation, you have to explain how a term
> referring to skill in music came to mean reputation in business.
> It's easier to see how a term referring to skill in music came to
> mean skill in business.
Does the musician's "chops" have any relationship to his "licks"?
--
Skitt
Licking his chops.
Areff
It could -- if your chops are sub-par, you're not going to be as
good at executing your licks. Clearly both terms come from wind
instrumentalists, though I wonder whether "licks" is more likely to be
from the woodwind family.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:02:33 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.thepulsemag.com/Culture/jazzbook.html where it says
>>>> "A noted jazz/blues musician in his own right, Williamson began to
>>>> earn his chops in the 1960s when he was a 15-year-old harmonica player
>>>> raised on Paul Butterfields rockin blues-harp playing." is the only
>>>> way that I'd use the term.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, the above refers to reputation and not what he plays.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure it does refer to reputation. I think it can be understood to
>>>mean that he began to acquire great technical proficiency in the 1960s.
>>>Where are you getting the reputation idea from?
>>
>> You *could* understand it to mean he developed bloodhound jowls, but
>> that's not the way I understand it. I got the idea from "earns". You
>> don't "earn" technical proficiency.
>
>Coop, have you ever attempted to play a musical instrument? No musician
>is born technically proficient. Otherwise I'd be a great musician by
>now. Do we have to discuss the usage of "earn"?
I can't see saying "He earned his proficiency by practicing."
Proficiency is gained, got, developed, acquired, etc., but not earned.
You just wouldn't ever use "earned" in that context.
You earn respect, credibility, a reputation, etc.
In this usage of "earn", it is something that you acquire because of
what other people think
>> Again, I don't agree. I think it refers to having earned her street
>> cred and would be thus able to be successful at Bouchard Marketing.
>> Same with the rest.
>
>If so, then it's a misusage by the writer. However, it makes more sense
>to think of it as acquiring skills as a marketing professional.
Misusage, my ass. If it's used in the business world with that
meaning, it means that in the business world. When it comes to slang
terms or jargon, "makes more sense" is meaningless. You don't analyze
phrases like "We're going to pull a bust-out" to find what sensible
origins there might be. You look at them as they are used.
>> This is a "sandwich" thing to you. If it doesn't fit your own
>> experience, it isn't right.
>
>No, it's more like an Occam's razor thing. The basic meaning of "chops"
>remains the musician meaning. As applied to business, it should refer to
>"skills at a particular sort of job" -- not reputation.
But it doesn't. It could, but it doesn't always.
> If it means
>reputation, you have to explain how a term referring to skill in music
>came to mean reputation in business. It's easier to see how a term
>referring to skill in music came to mean skill in business.
If you learned the term from an association with music, you might
apply it differently. If you learned the term from business usage,
it's easy enough to use it the way you've heard it used.
You are trying to apply logic (albeit a very narrow form of logic) to
the adoption of a term used in one field to another field. That
doesn't work.
A guy describing a presentation that was not a prepared presentation
might say "I just went in there and riffed." He doesn't mean that he
repeated some catchy phrases over and over or any of the other musical
meanings of "riff". He means he improvised.
Bob Cunningham
<m...@privacy.net> said:
[...]
> For example, Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops are
> second to none.
I can't imagine why Richard likes to say silly things like
that. He can have no way of knowing my degree of
proficiency as a radio operator, either now or sixty years
ago, when I was last employed in that occupation.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Here, though, Coop, I'm afraid that your view of what "chops" means is
>simply incorrect. You've been misunderstanding the meaning for however
>many years you've been seeing it in a business context.
You live in a strange and insular little world, Areff. You think that
anyone that uses a word or phrase differently than you would use it is
wrong. No matter that the person may be using the word exactly as
they intend it to mean. No matter that it is taken to mean exactly as
they intended it to be taken.
> For example,
>Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops are second to none. That doesn't
>mean he has some great reputation as a radio operator (outside of AUE) --
>not necessarily, anyway.
Or, for example, "Ask someone like Bob Cunningham to moderate the
radio operator newsgroup. He has the chops." That would mean that
Bob has a reputation that would enhance his position as moderator.
His technical skills may be rusty, but he's still thought of as a
person of credibility in the field of radio operators.
All depends on how you say it and mean it.
Sara Lorimer
Is saying "chops" a sign of not having them? It sounds so nerdy to me.
Like "gig."
--
SML
Areff
Perhaps, but I think "earn chops" can be used to mean "gain proficiency".
It's sort of like paying your dues.
> You earn respect, credibility, a reputation, etc.
>
> In this usage of "earn", it is something that you acquire because of
> what other people think
It's not unrelated to what people think, since there are standards of
proficiency that are applied to the chops earner. But it's basically
technical proficiency and not reputation (other than reputation for
technical proficiency).
>>If so, then it's a misusage by the writer. However, it makes more sense
>>to think of it as acquiring skills as a marketing professional.
>
> Misusage, my ass. If it's used in the business world with that
> meaning, it means that in the business world.
Okay. But you've provided no clear evidence that it *is* used in the
business world to mean "reputation" as opposed to "professional/career
skills".
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> You poor, deprived people that don't have business-world experience
>> just aren't aware of the world of alternative usages of words.
>
>I have business-world experience, Coop. No medical equipment experience,
>however.
>
Really? I can't see you in that context. You are the type that picks
apart rather than the type that puts together.
Areff
Are you suggesting that the nature of the business world is "putting
things together"?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Not quite. In brass playing, 'chops' refers to embrochure, the way
> that you use your lips, and tongue to produce the note. You can
> describe a trumpet player as having 'magnificent chops' because he
> can hit both high and low notes with facility. Also, in brass
> instrument playing you can talk about how you 'develop your chops'
> or how a recent dental appointment has 'ruined your chops'. In this
> usage, 'chops' actually refers to the entire physical arrangement
> that enables you to play a brass instrument well - your lung
> capacity, teeth, tongue, lips and facial muscles are all part of
> your 'chops'. The only thing that isn't is your musical ability
> apart from that.
The OED has a draft entry (9/2004) for this sense:
In _pl._ _Jazz_ (orig. U.S.).
a. The power of a trumpeter's embouchure.
1947 in R. S. Gold _Jazz Talk_ (1975) 48 He might not have the chops
he used to have, but his ideas are always fine.
1966 L. ARMSTRONG _Self-Portrait_ 40 I'd go wild in those solos--up
there in the high register all the time, and if I had some more
chops left, just use 'em some more.
1993 _Newsweek_ 18 Jan. 39 Others would've killed to have his
[sc. Dizzy Gillespie's] chops.
b. A jazz musician's skills; (in extended use) talent or skill in
any field.
1968 in A. Chapman _New Black Voices_ 147 Maybe you could get your
chops together on this horn.
1973 'D. ELLINGTON' _Music is my Mistress_ 247 Musicians..who like
to get together once or twice a week to try out their chops.
1990 _Boston Phoenix_ 27 Apr.-3 May PLS9/2 Most academic writers
just don't have the chops to make riveting reading out of the
quiltwork of 19th-century farm wives.
2003 _Sunday Herald_ (Glasgow) 29 June (Review) 4/1 It was a comic
role, but one that required serious acting chops.
They don't have any sense similar to "respect" or any quote similar to
"earned his chops". I wonder whether such uses reflect an
interference by "props".
The first use in the _LA Times_ seems to be
Last Sunday at Donte's Sheldon offered a preview of the quartet he
has assembled for his weekly insurance against weakening
chops. [10/21/66]
(Sheldon hadn't played regularly for several months and this was his
way of keeping in practice.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
(650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
R J Valentine
...
} I can't imagine why Richard likes to say silly things like
} that. He can have no way of knowing my degree of
} proficiency as a radio operator, either now or sixty years
} ago, when I was last employed in that occupation.
Was there ever anything you didn't have a high degree of proficiency in
(okay, anything that you were gainfully employed at)?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
R H Draney
Now *you're* the one being silly...everyone else understood that this was a
sample sentence meant to illustrate a point of usage...(I recommend the grammar,
punctuation and spelling books of Karen Elizabeth Gordon for the extreme form of
sentences unlikely to be taken as statements of fact)....r
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Yeah, right.
>> You earn respect, credibility, a reputation, etc.
>>
>> In this usage of "earn", it is something that you acquire because of
>> what other people think
>
>It's not unrelated to what people think, since there are standards of
>proficiency that are applied to the chops earner. But it's basically
>technical proficiency and not reputation (other than reputation for
>technical proficiency).
>>>If so, then it's a misusage by the writer. However, it makes more sense
>>>to think of it as acquiring skills as a marketing professional.
>>
>> Misusage, my ass. If it's used in the business world with that
>> meaning, it means that in the business world.
>
>Okay. But you've provided no clear evidence that it *is* used in the
>business world to mean "reputation" as opposed to "professional/career
>skills".
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL
Tony Cooper
I provided "evidence", but you rejected it. "Clear" is a weasel word
that means "I won't accept that because I think differently."
How about you providing some evidence that a person can earn some
proficiency.
Bob Cunningham
<dado...@spamcop.net> said:
> Bob Cunningham filted:
> >On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:33:51 +0000 (UTC), Areff
> ><m...@privacy.net> said:
> >[...]
> >> For example, Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops are
> >> second to none.
> >I can't imagine why Richard likes to say silly things like
> >that. He can have no way of knowing my degree of
> >proficiency as a radio operator, either now or sixty years
> >ago, when I was last employed in that occupation.
> Now *you're* the one being silly...everyone else
> understood that this was a sample sentence meant to
> illustrate a point of usage...
First, I question your claim to know what *everyone else*
was thinking. It's silly of you to make that claim unless
you've asked everyone, or at least taken a well-designed
poll of the readership, and I have no reason to think you've
done that.
Second, if the statement had been intended as a sample
sentence, I assume that Areff would have known enough to
enclose it in quotation marks. Since he didn't, it was
unquestionably an assertion of purported fact. The
"example" his "for example" referred to couldn't have been
the whole sentence, but his uninformed, irresponsible
assertion made *me* an example of a person having chops.
(Before someone jumps on me, let me say that if he had put
the sentence in a separate block of its own and indented it,
then it could have been recognized as an example sentence
without having quotation marks bracketing it. But he didn't
do that.)
Third, Areff has previously implied more than once that he
had knowledge that I was an outstanding radio operator. He
was just saying it again, and it was as silly as ever. Not
silly in the sense that I couldn't have been an outstanding
radio operator, but in the sense that he has absolutely no
way of knowing whether or not I was.
I'm sure that among the thousands of alt.usage.english
readers who would presumably comprise your "everyone else"
there must have been a significant number who knew enough
about punctuation to know that Areff's assertion was not a
sample sentence.
> (I recommend the grammar, punctuation and spelling books
> of Karen Elizabeth Gordon for the extreme form of
> sentences unlikely to be taken as statements of fact)....r
I hope for her sake she has a better understanding of
punctuation principles than you've displayed.
Anyway, the statement "Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops
are second to none" is *not* unlikely to be taken as a
statement of fact. So far as I know, no reader of
alt.usage.english has any way to know that it isn't
essentially quite true, so it's more likely than not to be
taken as an assertion of fact, but with a possible touch of
hyperbole.
Bottom line is I get dreadfully weary of Richard's
repeatedly dropping my name in his postings for no good
reason. This was just another example of his doing that.
I've asked him -- I think more than once -- to stop doing
it, but he ignores my requests.
If he does it to annoy me, he's succeeding. I'm left to
wonder why he wants to annoy me. What did I ever do to him?
Tony Cooper
Good example of elevating minor silliness to major proportions.
That's no way to campaign for moderator.
ray o'hara
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6vbpf1tlu3p86tvb4...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:31:01 +0200, Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:06:09 GMT, Tony Cooper
> ><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
> >
> >>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Areff <m...@privacy.net>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:16:30 -0400, "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> No ,I disagree.I think is is used as a plug so folks know that the
artist
> >>>>>has records.
> >>>>>Buy Albert Collins Records"Genuine house rockin music" I'm goint to
see Coco
> >>>>>Montoya tonight at the Regatta Bar in Boston.Coco honed his chops
playin for
> >>>>>Albert in the late 70s early 80s before on to John Mayall's
> >>>>>Bluesbreaker.,Now he has his own band.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I don't think you "hone chops". I thought you either had chops or
> >>>> didn't. I think it's like being an overnight success. You do
> >>>> something for years and years and all of a sudden you have chops.
> >>>
born
> >>>with it. Still, I wonder whether "hone" is the right verb.
> >>>
> >>They may be the result of practice, but practice doesn't get a
> >>musician his "chops". The musician never has his own chops. Chops
> >>are something that someone else thinks you have. It is an expression
> >>of respect by others, and not something possessed by the person that
> >>has them. A musician earns his chops, but never has them.
> >
> >We've been here before. You can have your own chops, but not to boast
> >about. For example, you can also work on (a better verb than hone, I
> >agree with Areff) your chops if they're a bit tired/rusty. And, of
> >course, you can -- God forbid -- lose them.
> >
> >I'm not sure I agree with TC about respect. You can say "X's chops are
> >nothing compared with Y's, but his solos suck big time, noodling
> >around going nowhere, so I'd rather listen to Y any day". That's
> >recognition of X's technical ability, but not really respect.
> >
> >they're acquired little by little, with hours and hours of scales,
> >repetition and pissed-off neighbours.
>
> I didn't say they were congenital. I said - see above - that they are
> a result of being in the biz for years and years until the person is
> recognized by others as being good. I think there is a congenital
> aspect since practice alone will not result in enough skills.
>
> I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
> skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
> liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
> chops.
>
> Chops are not the ability to riff, but the agreement of others that
> you can riff with the best.
>
> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
>
> > crawl. Keyboards were the new horns at the time. So I wasn't
> > working as much as a musician and my chops had began to
> > deteriorate, although I still had a good musical mind.
> > I was sitting on a Sunday afternoon jam session when
> > this bassist liked the way I was able to bring out the emotion
> > of this jazz ballad. So he invited me to come play with his
> > group at Birdland West. They counted off "two bass hit", but
> > at a lightning fast tempo. Now playing trombone is hard enough
> > to play quick, but without my chops being up to the task, it
> > was a disaster! At the end of the song, the bassist looked at
> > me and snickered mockingly. He said, "You can't play fast, can
> > you?"
>
> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
> >
> >to play a million notes a minute rather than having a "musical mind".
> >They're just the muso's equivalent of being "on form" or "at the top
> >of your game". They're the bench presses, not the touchdown plays.
>
> I'd think the usual use would be the bassist saying "You have your
> chops, but you weren't showing them today." meaning "I respect your
> abilities, but this wasn't a good example of them."
>
>
> --
> Tony Cooper
> Orlando FL
No,chops are the technical skills. I have a lot p[rofessional musician
friends{I'm even listed in the credits of a Ronnie Earl cd}. They use chops
to describe their ability to play the instrument or sing if that's their
game. it's not used as a description of their ability to express themselves
but as their ability to find the notes.
Kind of like Robert Fripp,great chops but no feeling or soul.
ray o'hara
"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:JrGdnZ2dnZ2siw7inZ2dn...@comcast.com...
No, licks are what one plays,chops the technical ability to play it.
I used Robert Fripp earliar as an example. great chops but boring licks.
Lcks can become just tricks. Takethe great blues guitarist Ronnie earl, he
has great chops,great licks but much more he can burn down the house with
extended solos.
Ross Howard
wrought:
>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:6vbpf1tlu3p86tvb4...@4ax.com...
>> I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
>> skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
>> liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
>> chops.
That may be your understanding of "chops", but it's at odds with how
the term is generally used by musicians (of all kinds, but especially
those who invented the term: black US jazz/soul/funk players).
>> Chops are not the ability to riff, but the agreement of others that
>> you can riff with the best.
>>
>> Nor do I think you can say "X's chops are nothing compared to Y's."
>> unless you are saying that X is more widely recognized as good at
>> playing the (instrument) than is Y. "Chops" are not a musical feat.
>> They are recognition of the ability to perform musical feats.
No, they're the ability to play accurately (which means at least as
fast and in tune as is the professionally acceptable minimum,
basically), no more, and they're achieved not by crossing your fingers
in the hope of somehow gaining the respect and recognition of others
but by putting in hours and hours of practice or gigging 250-plus
nights a year -- that's all there is to it.
>> > It was during the time that P-Funk's activity had slowed to a
>> > crawl. Keyboards were the new horns at the time. So I wasn't
>> > working as much as a musician and my chops had began to
>> > deteriorate, although I still had a good musical mind.
>> > I was sitting on a Sunday afternoon jam session when
>> > this bassist liked the way I was able to bring out the emotion
>> > of this jazz ballad. So he invited me to come play with his
>> > group at Birdland West. They counted off "two bass hit", but
>> > at a lightning fast tempo. Now playing trombone is hard enough
>> > to play quick, but without my chops being up to the task, it
>> > was a disaster! At the end of the song, the bassist looked at
>> > me and snickered mockingly. He said, "You can't play fast, can
>> > you?"
>>
>> I don't think the above is the usual use of "chops".
Sorry, but you think wrong, then.
Here's another major-league 'bone blower (pardon?) -- Fred Wesley, the
former JB -- using "chops" exactly as Greg Boyer did in the excerpt
quoted above, i.e. to mean nuts-and-bolts technical proficiency rather
than creativity, inspiration, peer approval or any of that other stuff
you're trying to force-fit to the term:
"When I was with James Brown I hardly practised at all because
we worked just about every night and I needed the time between
gigs to rest my lip. But during the eighties I hardly
practised at all because most of my work was arranging and
producing. I really got into serious strife in the late
eighties and early nineties when I realised in order to play
jazz you have to be up on your chops on the trombone. So
that is when I really seriously started to practise and I've
tried to continue that till now."
Googling on things like "work on my chops" or "keeping my chops up"
throws up hundreds of further such examples that should set you
straight.
--
Ross Howard
ray o'hara
"Ross Howard" <ggu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i0grf1ps01vcfhasa...@4ax.com...
Ross, nothing of the above was written by me. If you are going to snip
everything I wrote snip my name too. It would be better to just reply to the
person you are answering rather than attach to the wrong person. thanx, rayo
ray o'hara
"Sara Lorimer" <que.sara....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1h16snx.vqhou315h67l2N%que.sara....@gmail.com...
Chops ans gig are the terms musicians use when talking about those things.
Ross Howard
wrought:
[snip]
>Ross, nothing of the above was written by me. If you are going to snip
>everything I wrote snip my name too. It would be better to just reply to the
>person you are answering rather than attach to the wrong person. thanx, rayo
I didn't see Tony's post, which is what I was replying to, except for
what you quoted of it (my server's a bit dodgy at the moment), but I
should have removed the mention of you in the first line to avoid
confusion, you're right.
--
Ross Howard
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:37:07 -0400, "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net>
>wrought:
>
>>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:6vbpf1tlu3p86tvb4...@4ax.com...
>
>>> I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
>>> skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
>>> liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
>>> chops.
>
>That may be your understanding of "chops", but it's at odds with how
>the term is generally used by musicians (of all kinds, but especially
>those who invented the term: black US jazz/soul/funk players).
>
Yes, I'm getting that picture. My own exposure to the word has been
in the business, not the musical, world. Evidently, the people who
I've been around use it differently. Wouldn't be the first word to be
used one way in one group, and another way by another group.
Ross Howard
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:06:43 +0200, Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com>
Maybe Evan's onto something with his suspicion that the "respect/dues
earned" use you're familiar may owe more to "props" than "chops"
proper.
--
Ross Howard
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:16:26 GMT, Tony Cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrought:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:06:43 +0200, Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:37:07 -0400, "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net>
>>>wrought:
>>>
>>>>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:6vbpf1tlu3p86tvb4...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>> I don't think you can work on your chops. You can improve your
>>>>> skills, but you can't improve your own ability to be recognized and
>>>>> liked by others. Without the approval of others, you don't have
>>>>> chops.
>>>
>>>That may be your understanding of "chops", but it's at odds with how
>>>the term is generally used by musicians (of all kinds, but especially
>>>those who invented the term: black US jazz/soul/funk players).
>>>
>>
>>Yes, I'm getting that picture. My own exposure to the word has been
>>in the business, not the musical, world. Evidently, the people who
>>I've been around use it differently. Wouldn't be the first word to be
>>used one way in one group, and another way by another group.
>
>Maybe Evan's onto something with his suspicion that the "respect/dues
>earned" use you're familiar may owe more to "props" than "chops"
>proper.
The first time I ever heard "props" used was within the last couple of
years and hearing Jim Rome's radio show. The "chops" usage I've heard
and used goes much further back than that.
There are those that insist that my usage is wrong. That may be true
from a musician's standpoint, or the standpoint of a person that is
familiar with musician's usage, but a word is a word and has meaning
according to the use of the word. If it's used a particular way, and
the meaning is understood, then that's the definition to the people
that use it that way.
I wouldn't consider my usage to be an idiom because it's evidently not
used widely enough. There are too many people in the business world
that also have knowledge of the musician's world and would not use the
word as I do.
But, there is at least a small group of us that use "chops" to mean
"reputation". If I can get them all together, I'll suggest that we
adopt our own flag and some color of ribbon to wear in our lapels to
indicate that we support "chops" as slang for "cred". If there's
enough of us, we'll try to lobby the Delaware (a friendly state to
businessmen) House to proclaim a "Your reputation is your chops" day.
Ross Howard
wrought:
Licks are what in monkey-suit-music circles are usually just known as
"figures" (and in other trades may be known as "bits of business")
and. You can have your own stock of them ("trademark licks") or prefer
to homage/reference/shamelessly steal those of others. Licks can do
lots of different jobs, including serving as "fills" and
"turnarounds", and although "riffs" are licks, not all licks are
riffs.
Discuss.
--
Ross Howard
Sara Lorimer
> "Sara Lorimer" <que.sara....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1h16snx.vqhou315h67l2N%que.sara....@gmail.com...
> > Is saying "chops" a sign of not having them? It sounds so nerdy to me.
> > Like "gig."
> >
> > --
> > SML
>
> Chops ans gig are the terms musicians use when talking about those things.
Real musicians, or musicians in movies? None of the musicians I've known
would use those terms, except ironically. My friends are cynical punks,
though -- maybe jazz musicians really do say "chops," "gig," "cool cat,"
and "crazy."
--
SML
I can dig it, daddy-o
Maria Conlon
>
> Anyway, the statement "Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops
> are second to none" is *not* unlikely to be taken as a
> statement of fact. So far as I know, no reader of
> alt.usage.english has any way to know that it isn't
> essentially quite true, so it's more likely than not to be
> taken as an assertion of fact, but with a possible touch of
> hyperbole.
Hmm. If that's the case (and I'm not voting Yea or Nay) then I wonder if
Areff could be talked into dropping another remark into his posts from
time to time. What I have in mind is something like this: "Maria
Conlon's meat loaf is way better than anyone else's." Or, to be less
on-topic, "Maria Conlon's days as a Technical Writer set a pattern of
excellence not yet equalled."
> Bottom line is I get dreadfully weary of Richard's
> repeatedly dropping my name in his postings for no good
> reason. This was just another example of his doing that.
> I've asked him -- I think more than once -- to stop doing
> it, but he ignores my requests.
You are obviously uncomfortable with fame, Bob, but it's going to dog
you forever, methinks.
> If he does it to annoy me, he's succeeding. I'm left to
> wonder why he wants to annoy me. What did I ever do to him?
You gave him a performance goal to follow. But he doesn't want to annoy
you; he wants to laud you.
Maria Conlon
Ross Howard
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
The ones I know -- funketeers and jazzsters-- certainly do talk about
"chops". They tend to prefer "show" over "gig", though, when referring
to a single concert performance. If they use "gig" at all, it tends to
refer to a longish-term engagement (a tour, a Broadway show, a TV
residency, etc.).
--
Ross Howard
Bob Cunningham
<mari...@sbcglobal.net> said:
> Bob Cunningham wrote:
> > Anyway, the statement "Bob Cunningham's radio operator chops
> > are second to none" is *not* unlikely to be taken as a
> > statement of fact. So far as I know, no reader of
> > alt.usage.english has any way to know that it isn't
> > essentially quite true, so it's more likely than not to be
> > taken as an assertion of fact, but with a possible touch of
> > hyperbole.
> Hmm. If that's the case (and I'm not voting Yea or Nay) then I wonder if
> Areff could be talked into dropping another remark into his posts from
> time to time. What I have in mind is something like this: "Maria
> Conlon's meat loaf is way better than anyone else's."
I'll bet Maria Conlon's pork chops also are nonpareil. If
so, with this new definition of "chops" we're hearing about,
Areff could say "Maria Conlon's chops chops are second to
none".
> Or, to be less on-topic, "Maria Conlon's days as a
> Technical Writer set a pattern of excellence not yet
> equalled."
"Not yet" is good. It leaves hope for younger writers that
they have some chance -- slim though it may be -- of
surpassing your superb work.
> > Bottom line is I get dreadfully weary of Richard's
> > repeatedly dropping my name in his postings for no good
> > reason. This was just another example of his doing that.
> > I've asked him -- I think more than once -- to stop doing
> > it, but he ignores my requests.
> You are obviously uncomfortable with fame, Bob, but it's going to dog
> you forever, methinks.
> > If he does it to annoy me, he's succeeding. I'm left to
> > wonder why he wants to annoy me. What did I ever do to him?
> You gave him a performance goal to follow. But he doesn't want to annoy
> you; he wants to laud you.
But, laud a mercy, it gets mighty tiresome.
Areff
That doesn't seem likely to me -- these business types like Coop don't
seem like the kinds of people who'd be exposed to "props".
Most likely, if Coop's even right about this, it's a mistake by the
businesspeople borrowing the term -- much as they mistakenly changed the
meaning of "out of pocket" when they borrowed that phrase.
Areff
> Licks are what in monkey-suit-music circles are usually just known as
> "figures" (and in other trades may be known as "bits of business")
> and. You can have your own stock of them ("trademark licks") or prefer
> to homage/reference/shamelessly steal those of others. Licks can do
> lots of different jobs, including serving as "fills" and
> "turnarounds", and although "riffs" are licks, not all licks are
> riffs.
I'll buy that, except for the "turnaround" part -- I think "turnaround"
generally refers to a harmonic progression used in a particular functional
way in a song or piece or the like. For example, I think of doing
something like I-IV-II-V in the last two bars of some jazz tune, leading
you into the beginning of the next chorus, or some more interesting
substitute for that, like the bebop-popularized I-IIIb-IVb-IIb, as a basic
"turnaround". If a progression like that is used at the *beginning*, it
isn't a turnaround, probably.
Areff
> Real musicians, or musicians in movies? None of the musicians I've known
> would use those terms, except ironically. My friends are cynical punks,
> though -- maybe jazz musicians really do say "chops," "gig," "cool cat,"
> and "crazy."
I'm not entirely sure that "chops", conceptually, are valued in the
punk-related musical genres, TICBW.
Areff
> There are those that insist that my usage is wrong. That may be true
> from a musician's standpoint, or the standpoint of a person that is
> familiar with musician's usage, but a word is a word and has meaning
> according to the use of the word. If it's used a particular way, and
> the meaning is understood, then that's the definition to the people
> that use it that way.
Agreed, but I still don't see any clear evidence that the business usage
of "chops" means "acquired reputation" rather than "acquired professional
skills".
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Or, for example, "Ask someone like Bob Cunningham to moderate the
> radio operator newsgroup. He has the chops." That would mean
that
> Bob has a reputation that would enhance his position as moderator.
> His technical skills may be rusty, but he's still thought of as a
> person of credibility in the field of radio operators.
>
> All depends on how you say it and mean it.
Mind you, in Wales "chops" means "cheek", and "chopsy" means
"cheeky". Over the Severn Sea in Somerset, by contrast, Bath chaps
are muchee good chop. Is AmE without the not-yet-obsolete ImperialE
meaning, "signature"? I think AusE preserves the meaning "share",
"cut".
--
Mike.
Tony Cooper
I thought that in Oz that "chops" would be associated with mutton. Of
course, everything is within seven degrees of mutton.
Django Cat
> progression like that is used at the beginning, it isn't a
> turnaround, probably.
we should jam sometime...
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Tony Cooper wrote:
>> It's developed that there are several versions of what "chops" is. I
>> say reputation, but that's based on my exposure to the work in a
>> business context. Others say it is playing with skill. Brooks just
>> entered the room and said it's developing the jaw or something.
>>
>> It seems to be a matter of what the person commenting is used to
>> seeing/hearing, and the other versions are wrong. I'm as guilty of
>> that as Areff is.
>
> Here, though, Coop, I'm afraid that your view of what "chops" means
> is simply incorrect. You've been misunderstanding the meaning for
> however many years you've been seeing it in a business context.
> I've seen no evidence that business "chops" means anything other
> than an analogizing of musician "chops" to a business context. That
> is, "chops" still refers to technical proficiency.
Although I've already put forth the theory that this sense is a
conflation with "props", there are enough hits (some 1,500) on Google
(and 3 in Amazon-searchable books) for "earned his chops" that seem to
be in the sense of "paid his dues" that I'm starting to suspect that
this is simply a completely different sense of "chops". In
particular, the OED has a sense of "chop" coming from Hindi with
senses of
1. In India, China. A seal or the impression of a seal; an
official impress or stamp.
2. a. A licence, passport, etc., made valid by means of such a
seal; generally, a properly authenticated official document,
permitting or authorizing some act; a permit.
3. China trade. A mark on goods to declare their nature, quality,
etc.; a trade-mark; hence, a particular 'brand', sort, or class
of goods bearing the same trade-mark. Also attrib.
4. a. Hence, Anglo-Ind. and colloq. first (second) chop: first (or
other) rank, rate, position, quality, etc.; also attrib. no
chop, 'no class' (Austral.).
I could easily see this leading to such a metaphorical sense of
"earned his chops".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I need to get a new collander. My
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |old one has holes in it.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
ray o'hara
Real ones. I'm a world class hanger-onner and that's how they talk. Hanging
with musicians is like listening to some weird 1950s hipster movie
soundtrack. I try not to laugh.
ray o'hara
"Tony Cooper" > Or, for example, "Ask someone like Bob Cunningham to
moderate the
> radio operator newsgroup. He has the chops." That would mean that
> Bob has a reputation that would enhance his position as moderator.
> His technical skills may be rusty, but he's still thought of as a
> person of credibility in the field of radio operators.
>
> All depends on how you say it and mean it.
>
I'd still see it as a nod towards his technical skill. There's more to being
a good radio operator than just turning the frequency dial.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> Real musicians, or musicians in movies? None of the musicians I've known
>> would use those terms, except ironically. My friends are cynical punks,
>> though -- maybe jazz musicians really do say "chops," "gig," "cool cat,"
>> and "crazy."
>>
>
>Real ones. I'm a world class hanger-onner and that's how they talk. Hanging
>with musicians is like listening to some weird 1950s hipster movie
>soundtrack. I try not to laugh.
My good college friend, fraternity brother, and co-editor of a
magazine we put out together has been playing with Neil Diamond since
the late 60s or early 70s. He's the keyboarder, and has done a lot of
the arrangements for Neil. Diamond appeared on the Ellen DeGeneris
show recently, and I taped it. My friend looks older, fatter, and
more grizzled, but he's still in view over Neil's left shoulder.
The last time I saw him, we had a bite after the show with some of the
other musicians. I could barely follow the conversation with all the
musician's slang, terms, and references.
My friend and I went for a drink later - just the two of us - and he
talked like a regular person. They turn it on and off.
Paul Wolff
writes
turns up ten hits for "earned his chops" (via google.co.uk).
Mike Patton's Voice Goes Beyond Singing
Voice Behind Tomahawk has Earned His Chops. by MATT PEIKEN St. Paul
Pioneer Press,
www.mattpeiken.com/Journalism/Rock-Jazz/tomahawk.htm
Earthling Publications - Books
Smith is one of the best writers of horror and dark fantasy to have
earned his chops in the last decade. This book is proof that his
American publishers ...
www.earthlingpub.com/mms_tomorrow.htm
Democrats.US - Online Think Tank for Democrats - Editorial
So he hit the road and earned his chops as a reporter covering all
manner of international stories, won some prestigious awards, and gained
that mysterious ...
www.democrats.us/editorial/lyon081105.shtml
About the Boys in the Band
He earned his chops and received limited radio airplay of live versions
of both Cabriolet and Shelter while in Chicago, and also gained some
valuable music ...
www.erikyoung.com/band.html
The James Beard Foundation Events: October 2001
Andrew Carmellini is a relative new kid on the block, but he’s already
earned his chops: he was chef de partie on Gray Kunz’s four-star crew
at Lespinasse ...
www.jamesbeard.org/events/2001/10/021.shtml
Wings ePress Author - Sandy Semerad
Sandy now lives in Destin, Florida, with husband Larry, a pianist who
earned his chops as a New Orleans musician. Together, they wrote two
musicals and ...
www.wings-press.com/Author%20Pages/ Author%20-%20Sandy%20Semerad.htm
The Wade Love Official Website
And though he has earned his chops doing background vocals for many
artists, he has also broadened his horizons through songwriting,
arranging and producing ...
www.wadelove.com/store.html
Pacifica Seafood Restaurant - Chef Brent Pollock
After graduation, Pollock earned his chops at the prestigious Auberge du
Soleil in the Napa Valley. From there he went to Gordon Biersch for
almost seven ...
www.pacificainthedesert.com/chef.html
Kutibeng: 02/13/2005 - 02/19/2005
They include the Fania All-Stars, Quincy Jones, Motown, Sugar Hill Gang
and others, He earned his chops at Quad Studios, New York City and
continues to put ...
kutibeng.blogspot.com/2005_02_13_kutibeng_archive.html
Sacramento Magazine Online
Patrick Mulvaney, 43, may not be a household name yet in Sacramento, but
he has earned his chops in the national food arena. In the late 1980s,
...
www.sacmag.com/archive/February2005/article2.shtm
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!
Tony Cooper
<boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <ddldj0$uu$3...@news.wss.yale.edu>, Areff <m...@privacy.net>
>writes
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> There are those that insist that my usage is wrong. That may be true
>>> from a musician's standpoint, or the standpoint of a person that is
>>> familiar with musician's usage, but a word is a word and has meaning
>>> according to the use of the word. If it's used a particular way, and
>>> the meaning is understood, then that's the definition to the people
>>> that use it that way.
>>
>>Agreed, but I still don't see any clear evidence that the business usage
>>of "chops" means "acquired reputation" rather than "acquired professional
>>skills".
>>
>I thought earning ones chops was a standard phrase, but Google only
>turns up ten hits for "earned his chops" (via google.co.uk).
>
(Snip cites)
It's funny the way this group goes. Someone says something it is
followed by a chorus of "Nobody says that!" or "It was never that
way!". This is one example, and the 8 Days Inn thing was another.
Then, a few posts start to appear where someone says "I've heard it."
or "I've seen it."
The chorus never comes back to say "Well, what I meant was that I've
never seen it or heard it."
Mark Brader
> I thought earning ones chops was a standard phrase, but Google only
> turns up ten hits for "earned his chops" (via google.co.uk).
I just tried the above (via google.co.uk) and got 1,540 hits.
--
Mark Brader "Do YOU trust US?"
Toronto "YES!! Well, we try to."
m...@vex.net -- A Walk in the Woods, by Lee Blessing
Paul Wolff
<m...@vex.net> writes
>Paul Wolff writes:
>> I thought earning ones chops was a standard phrase, but Google only
>> turns up ten hits for "earned his chops" (via google.co.uk).
>
>I just tried the above (via google.co.uk) and got 1,540 hits.
If I put the phrase in double quotes and do a regular search I get 10;
if I search for the exact phrase in the Advanced search the phase
appears in the Google bar search box with a leading space before the
first quote mark and I now get 1700. Someone knows why.
Skitt
> Mark Brader writes
>> Paul Wolff writes:
>>> I thought earning ones chops was a standard phrase, but Google only
>>> turns up ten hits for "earned his chops" (via google.co.uk).
>>
>> I just tried the above (via google.co.uk) and got 1,540 hits.
>
> If I put the phrase in double quotes and do a regular search I get 10;
> if I search for the exact phrase in the Advanced search the phase
> appears in the Google bar search box with a leading space before the
> first quote mark and I now get 1700. Someone knows why.
I put the phrase in quotes (") and got 1560 hits with regular search and
with advanced search.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
ray o'hara
Everybody likes Neil Diamond but nobody ever will admit it.
At Red Sox games they play Sweet Caroline, its become a kind of theme song,"
everybody sings along and seem to know the words.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I'm an exception, I'm afraid. I went to the concert because my friend
secured special seats. Try being in the first few rows when he does
"America" and see if your hearing is intact afterwards.
Neil is in y8
Tony Cooper
>> Everybody likes Neil Diamond but nobody ever will admit it.
>>At Red Sox games they play Sweet Caroline, its become a kind of theme song,"
>>everybody sings along and seem to know the words.
>>
>
>I'm an exception, I'm afraid. I went to the concert because my friend
>secured special seats. Try being in the first few rows when he does
>"America" and see if your hearing is intact afterwards.
>
>Neil is in y8
Damn. Hit "send" by mistake.
Neil is in his mid-60s now, and kinda talks the song instead of
singing it. At least he did so on Ellen's program.
My friend was also a pirate in a Peter Pan peanut butter commercial.
He had written the music for the commercial, recorded it on his
keyboard, and was delivering the tape to the studio. The actor that
was supposed to be the pirate didn't show up, so they signed up my
friend and put him in a pirate costume. He made a bundle on residuals
(he had a choice between taking a flat fee or taking an amount for
each airing and chose the latter) but took quite a bit of kidding over
it.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Everybody likes Neil Diamond but nobody ever will admit it.
> At Red Sox games they play Sweet Caroline, its become a kind of
theme
> song," everybody sings along and seem to know the words.
I've heard of Neil Diamond; but you could drag me to the stake and I
wouldn't have a clue what he sang. Isn't he one of those pop-type
musicians for children and people who read tabloids?
--
Mike.
Tony Cooper
He's sold over 160 million albums. Some people must like him, or his
mother's very rich.
(I don't have one of the 160 million, though.)
Peter Duncanson
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
He predates children and tabloids (as it were).
On second thoughts make that "pre-dates".
I imagine the following quote from a website would not encourage you to go
to one of his concerts:
Over the course of a career that kicked in with the adolescent rush
of "Cherry Cherry" in 1966 and crescendoed more than three decades
later with his most successful world tour ever, spanning 2001 and 2002,
Neil Diamond has never failed to delight and surprise his fans with
fresh approaches to the music that moves him the most deeply. His
concerts are nothing less than communal events that Neil transforms into
intimate encounters between himself and the millions who attend those
shows from decade to decade.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
Areff
> I've heard of Neil Diamond; but you could drag me to the stake and I
> wouldn't have a clue what he sang. Isn't he one of those pop-type
> musicians for children and people who read tabloids?
Pretty much. A friend of mine from college used to talk about how his
"first rock concert" was a Neil Diamond concert -- the very
characterization of it as thus was part of why it was a funny story.
But let's remember that Neil Diamond is from *my* home town -- Flatbush,
in the heart of Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America). In fact, Neil
briefly attended Erasmus Hall High School, from which were graduated
Barbra (then Barbara) Streisand, Jim Florio (sometime governor of New
Jersey, swept out of office on a tide of anti-tax fury), John Forsythe
(?!), Susan Hayward, Betty Comden, Lainie Kazan (nee Levine), Samuel
Lefrak of Lefrak City fame, Bernard Malamud, Stephanie Mills (who
attended when it was already in serious decline), Robert Silverberg of
s-f fame, Eli Wallach, Mickey Spillane, and Joseph Barbera of Hanna and
Barbera fame. I'm just scratching the surface here.
Neil transfered to another high school when the family moved down
to Brighton Beach. Another person who transferred was Beverly
Sills (then Belle Silverman). Erasmus's most famous dropout was Bobby
Fischer of chess fame.
Areff
[of Neil Diamond]
> He's sold over 160 million albums. Some people must like him, or his
> mother's very rich.
According to one site, his mother Kieve opened "Diamond's Dry Goods" in
Flatbush (THOB[FLCIA]) in 1953, but I doubt she got rich from that
enterprise.
Sara Lorimer
> But let's remember that Neil Diamond is from *my* home town -- Flatbush,
> in the heart of Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America).
I washed his dishes once -- in Vermont, of all places. ("Washed his
dishes" doesn't sound like a euphamism, does it?)
--
SML
R H Draney
>
>I've heard of Neil Diamond; but you could drag me to the stake and I
>wouldn't have a clue what he sang. Isn't he one of those pop-type
>musicians for children and people who read tabloids?
To a point...did you ever read about a frog who dreamed of being a king, and
then became one?...that's Neil....
So is "Song Sung Blue", which we couldn't escape for a few years, and that sappy
"Turn On Your Heart Light" thing from "ET"....
As far as I'm concerned, he stopped being worth following after "And The Grass
Won't Pay No Mind"....r
Ben Zimmer
Thus proving that "Neil Diamond" is not merely a stage name, despite
claims to the contrary.
This, by the way, is a big hint for the still-unanswered SDC teaser
posed on June 21...
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/f75243e06ac068f3
Ben Zimmer
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> writes:
>
> > Not quite. In brass playing, 'chops' refers to embrochure, the way
> > that you use your lips, and tongue to produce the note. You can
> > describe a trumpet player as having 'magnificent chops' because he
> > can hit both high and low notes with facility. Also, in brass
> > instrument playing you can talk about how you 'develop your chops'
> > or how a recent dental appointment has 'ruined your chops'. In this
> > usage, 'chops' actually refers to the entire physical arrangement
> > that enables you to play a brass instrument well - your lung
> > capacity, teeth, tongue, lips and facial muscles are all part of
> > your 'chops'. The only thing that isn't is your musical ability
> > apart from that.
>
> The OED has a draft entry (9/2004) for this sense:
>
> In _pl._ _Jazz_ (orig. U.S.).
>
> a. The power of a trumpeter's embouchure.
>
> 1947 in R. S. Gold _Jazz Talk_ (1975) 48 He might not have the chops
> he used to have, but his ideas are always fine.
[...]
>
> b. A jazz musician's skills; (in extended use) talent or skill in
> any field.
>
> 1968 in A. Chapman _New Black Voices_ 147 Maybe you could get your
> chops together on this horn.
[...]
> The first use in the _LA Times_ seems to be
>
> Last Sunday at Donte's Sheldon offered a preview of the quartet he
> has assembled for his weekly insurance against weakening
> chops. [10/21/66]
>
> (Sheldon hadn't played regularly for several months and this was his
> way of keeping in practice.)
Jack Sheldon's a trumpet player, so I think we can assume that this
refers to the power of his embouchure, rather than to his proficiency in
a more general sense.
Hard to know when "chops" got generalized to non-trumpeters, but the
mid-'60s was probably a transitional period. An Aug. 16, 1963 _NY Times_
review of Robert S. Gold's _A Jazz Lexicon_ says the book defines
"chops" as "embouchure or technique" (though it doesn't specify whether
that means technique on the trumpet).
Areff
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> [...]
>> The first use in the _LA Times_ seems to be
>>
>> Last Sunday at Donte's Sheldon offered a preview of the quartet he
>> has assembled for his weekly insurance against weakening
>> chops. [10/21/66]
>>
>> (Sheldon hadn't played regularly for several months and this was his
>> way of keeping in practice.)
>
> Jack Sheldon's a trumpet player, so I think we can assume that this
> refers to the power of his embouchure, rather than to his proficiency in
> a more general sense.
I think it's more like we can't safely assume it's the more generalized
"technique" (or "technic") usage of "chops", given that he's a trumpeter.
Surely, though, by 1966 the generalization had long since occurred.
> Hard to know when "chops" got generalized to non-trumpeters, but the
> mid-'60s was probably a transitional period. An Aug. 16, 1963 _NY Times_
> review of Robert S. Gold's _A Jazz Lexicon_ says the book defines
> "chops" as "embouchure or technique" (though it doesn't specify whether
> that means technique on the trumpet).
I'm guessing the transitional period occurred earlier, perhaps around the
same time that "blow" and "horn" came to be generalized to all
instrumentalists -- perhaps the 1940s if not earlier. You'd think that
there'd be earlier documentary evidence.
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon said [with "him" being Areff]:
>> You gave him a performance goal to follow. But he doesn't want to
>> annoy you; he wants to laud you.
>
> But, laud a mercy, it gets mighty tiresome.
Oh, that's *good*. "Laud" and "Lord" are even related, which I never
realized before. Looks like we have a great OBaue here.
Maria Conlon
Matti Lamprhey
No, but if you'd said that you'd cleaned his plates for him, you'd have
the cockney foot-fetishist brigade trying to knock you up.
Matti
Sara Lorimer
Maria Conlon
> Sara Lorimer wrote...
>> Areff wrote:
>>
>>> But let's remember that Neil Diamond is from *my* home town --
>>> Flatbush, in the heart of Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America).
>>
>> I washed his dishes once -- in Vermont, of all places. ("Washed his
>> dishes" doesn't sound like a euphamism, does it?)
>
> No, but if you'd said that you'd cleaned his plates for him, you'd
> have the cockney foot-fetishist brigade trying to knock you up.
This reminds me of the old "I'd like to park my car in *her* garage"
routine that I've seen Peter (or was it Paul?) of Peter, Paul, and Mary
doing.
"I washed his dishes once" has possibilities along that line -- an
innocent statement generating a similar response but said in a dirty
way. In fact, "dirty" might be worked into the response.
Wish I could think of a good example. (I can almost hear someone saying,
"I've got a good example for you, heh-heh" with the emphasis on "I've."
Maria Conlon
Matti Lamprhey
Rhyming slang: plates [of meat] = feet.
As in "Ooh, me plates 'ave been playing me up sumpfin' rotten all week."
Matti
Mike Lyle
[...]
> "I washed his dishes once" has possibilities along that line -- an
> innocent statement generating a similar response but said in a
dirty
> way. In fact, "dirty" might be worked into the response.
>
> Wish I could think of a good example. (I can almost hear someone
> saying, "I've got a good example for you, heh-heh" with the
emphasis
> on "I've."
Hey Toots! I gotta great emphasis for you right here! Heh, heh! Ya
wanna see an anacolouthon...?
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
I think I formed an ineradicable prejudice when, back in the 70s or
80s, some hang-gliding expert said on TV how great it was to float
over the scenery with "a nice Neil Diamond tape" playing on his
Walkman.
--
Mike.
Sara Lorimer
I meant, the cockney foot-fetishist brigade is after me again?
--
SML
Skitt
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>> "Sara Lorimer" wrote...
>>> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>>>> "Sara Lorimer" wrote...
>>>>>> But let's remember that Neil Diamond is from *my* home town --
>>>>>> Flatbush, in the heart of Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in
>>>>>> America).
>>>>>
>>>>> I washed his dishes once -- in Vermont, of all places. ("Washed
>>>>> his dishes" doesn't sound like a euphamism, does it?)
>>>>
>>>> No, but if you'd said that you'd cleaned his plates for him, you'd
>>>> have the cockney foot-fetishist brigade trying to knock you up.
>>>>
>>> Again?
>>
>> Rhyming slang: plates [of meat] = feet.
>>
>> As in "Ooh, me plates 'ave been playing me up sumpfin' rotten all
>> week."
>>
> I meant, the cockney foot-fetishist brigade is after me again?
To knock you up again, no less.
Robert Lieblich
On the American version of "Whose Line is it Anyway," with Drew Carey
(of all people) as emcee, one of the games they play is "... if you
know what I mean." The show, for anyone who has missed its various
incarnations, is an improv show, and the game referred to consists of
three or four people trying to make each other laugh by coming up with
particularly funny euphemisms for various sorts of intimate acts. I
can easily imagine one of them giving forth with "He really knows how
to wash her dishes ... if you know what I mean."
Reruns are on the cable network ABC Family. That is funny in itself.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who can really post to Usenet ... if you know what I mean
John Holmes
>
> Thus proving that "Neil Diamond" is not merely a stage name, despite
> claims to the contrary.
>
> This, by the way, is a big hint for the still-unanswered SDC teaser
> posed on June 21...
>
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/f75243e06ac068
f3
Noah answer was the stern reply.
And what of Max, who made the most of it?
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Ben Zimmer
>
> Ben Zimmer wrote:
> >
> > Thus proving that "Neil Diamond" is not merely a stage name, despite
> > claims to the contrary.
> >
> > This, by the way, is a big hint for the still-unanswered SDC teaser
> > posed on June 21...
> >
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/f75243e06ac068f3
>
> Noah answer was the stern reply.
>
> And what of Max, who made the most of it?
The trumpeter or the hockey player?
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:JrGdnZ2dnZ2siw7inZ2dn...@comcast.com...
...
> > Does the musician's "chops" have any relationship to his "licks"?
A false note--unusual for you, Skitt. (Or is "chops" like "kudos"?)
> No, licks are what one plays,chops the technical ability to play it.
> I used Robert Fripp earliar as an example. great chops but boring licks.
You have spoken slightingly of That Fripp. Pistols on the Common at
dawn, sir.
> Lcks can become just tricks. Takethe great blues guitarist Ronnie earl, he
> has great chops,great licks but much more he can burn down the house with
> extended solos.
But are the solos combinations of licks? If a solo is that, is it a
slobber?
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
...
> It could -- if your chops are sub-par, you're not going to be as
> good at executing your licks. Clearly both terms come from wind
> instrumentalists, though I wonder whether "licks" is more likely to be
> from the woodwind family.
I suspect the musical "lick" is from the sense "A sudden hard stroke; a
blow." (AHD), as in the obsolescent "give it a lick". Neither AHD nor
MW on line has any relevant information.
--
Jerry Friedman
Skitt
>>> Does the musician's "chops" have any relationship to his "licks"?
>
> A false note--unusual for you, Skitt. (Or is "chops" like "kudos"?)
I was writing about the word "chops" and its relationship to the word
"licks" -- that's why the quotation marks. Other than that, thanks for the
compliment.