2day's Spelling
Maria Conlon
screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage
of
"deep-seeded."
Then I started thinking about it and figured that the two spelling
versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded"
version might seem to make more sense.
Any other similar pairs out there?
Maria Conlon,
Whose opinions are rather deep-seated.
James Hogg
> A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on
> the screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written
> usage of "deep-seeded."
>
> Then I started thinking about it and figured that the two spelling
> versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the
> "seeded" version might seem to make more sense.
>
> Any other similar pairs out there?
For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means
America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed they do.
--
James
Robert Lieblich
Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me.
--
Bob Lieblich
Himself a bit eggy and corny
R H Draney
>
>A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on the
>screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage
>of
>"deep-seeded."
>
>Then I started thinking about it and figured that the two spelling
>versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded"
>version might seem to make more sense.
My opinion of such misunderstandings is deep-ceded....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>A letter of comment to a recent television news program was shown on the
>screen and read aloud by the host. I was surprised at the written usage
>of
>"deep-seeded."
>
>Then I started thinking about it and figured that the two spelling
>versions could seem equally valid to many folks. In fact, the "seeded"
>version might seem to make more sense.
What kind of seeds were they?
I usually look at the instructions on the packet to see how deeply they should
be seeded.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Jerry Friedman
I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless
cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Lieblich
Graded by size of particles? The "logic" behind an eggcorn doesn't
have to make much sense.
FWIW, the Eggcorn Database
<http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns/> has "deep-seeded" but
not "graded cheese."
--
Bob Lieblich
Often taken for granite
R H Draney
>
>On Feb 7, 5:53=A0pm, Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>
>> > For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means
>y do.
>>
>> Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me.
>
>I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless
>cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
Maybe someone was thinking of the way pavers "grade" a road by screeding off the
top layer of dirt and making it all nice and smooth....r
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Graded by size of particles? The "logic" behind an eggcorn doesn't
> have to make much sense.
With the Danish parallel to eggcorns we differentiate between ure
spelling errors and misunderstandings. We cannot, however, do so
with certainty because we can't look into the writer's brain. We
make an educated guess.
Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an
eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling. "Deep-seeded" I would file
under "Eggcorn or spelling error?".
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> With the Danish parallel to eggcorns we differentiate between ure
> spelling errors
... like the one just made. Insert a p before "ure".
--
Bertel, Denmark
Mark Brader
> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless
> cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
Well, it comes in Mild, Medium, Old, and sometimes Extra Old.
Does that count?
("Sharp" instead of "Old" to some of you.)
--
Mark Brader | "...he entertained the notion that I was cribbing from
Toronto | other [students' exams] until it was pointed out that
m...@vex.net | I often had the only correct answer..." --Lars Eighner
Peter Moylan
> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless
> cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the same
size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Mike Lyle
Im Bri'm we've nearly all avoided H1M1 burb flu.
--
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Robert Lieblich skrev:
>
>> Graded by size of particles? The "logic" behind an eggcorn doesn't
>> have to make much sense.
>
> With the Danish parallel to eggcorns we differentiate between ure
> spelling errors and misunderstandings. We cannot, however, do so
> with certainty because we can't look into the writer's brain. We
> make an educated guess.
>
> Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an
> eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling.
Making the assumption that for the person in question "grate" and
"grade" are homonyms?
> "Deep-seeded" I would file under "Eggcorn or spelling error?".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Algebra? But that's far too
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |difficult for seven-year-olds!"
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |
|"Yes, but I didn't tell them that
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and so far they haven't found out,"
(650)857-7572 |said Susan.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> > Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an
> > eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling.
> Making the assumption that for the person in question "grate" and
> "grade" are homonyms?
Yes - and your question makes me realize that I was using my
Danish perception. Is there an englishspeaking area where the two
words are actually homonyms?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Jerry Friedman
I'd be surprised, but my "grated" and "graded" are almost exact
homonyms, if not exact. I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and
"grade" instead.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> Jerry Friedman filted:
>
>
>
> >On Feb 7, 5:53=A0pm, Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> James Hogg wrote:
>
> >> > For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means
> >> > America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and indeed the=
> >y do.
>
> >> Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me.
>
> >I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese" (unless
> >cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
>
> Maybe someone was thinking of the way pavers "grade" a road by screeding off the
> top layer of dirt and making it all nice and smooth....r
Okay, I can now see that your suggestion and Peter Moylan's are
possible.
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Feb 8, 7:12�pm, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>>
>> > > Under that condition I would not accept "graded cheese" as an
>> > > eggcorn, but only as a sound-spelling.
>> > Making the assumption that for the person in question "grate" and
>> > "grade" are homonyms?
>>
>> Yes - and your question makes me realize that I was using my
>> Danish perception. Is there an englishspeaking area where the two
>> words are actually homonyms?
>
> I'd be surprised, but my "grated" and "graded" are almost exact
> homonyms, if not exact.
I'd be very surprised if you didn't, like most American speakers,
systemmatically lengthen the first vowel in "graded" since it's
followed by a voiced consonant. And I'd be very surprised if you
scored anywhere near chance in distinguishing the words as spoken by
yourself or other American speakers.
We did this one in Phonetics & Phonology back in the '80s, when the
easiest way to do it was still to play around with tape. Cut out
segments from the "a" in "graded" and you reach a point where people
hear it as "grated". Add in duplicates of segments from the middle of
the "a" in "grated" and you reach a point where people hear it as
"graded". Similarly "cap" and "cab", "writing" and "riding", etc.
The consonants are the same, but the vowels measurably, perceptably,
and systemmatically differ.
> I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and "grade" instead.
Because if a speaker pronounced "grate" and "grade" differently, I'd
be very surprised if they, knowing the word to be the past tense of
"grate", used a "sound spelling" of "graded". So the only time I'd
expect it to come up would be when the entire paradigms are homonyms
of one another.
And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade", for
most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At least at
the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't released. It's
[greIt] and [gre:It].
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Society in every state is a blessing,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |but government, even in its best
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |state is but a necessary evil; in its
|worst state, an intolerable one.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Thomas Paine
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
This is very interesting . We non-AmEers rapidly get to the point where
we no longer, or rarely, misunderstand when we hear this feature of
American speech: I try to maintain a poetic ear, but I'd assumed that I
was relying on contextual clues not the sounds themselves.
It may also explain something I've been thinking (to no avail at all)
about recently. I'm referring to the distinctly outlandish sounds made
by some EFL speakers who've learnt AmE: these people seem to me to
realise some sounds in a sometimes grating _caricature_ of American
speech. I'm now thinking that what's going on in these cases is that
perhaps they may be using only one version, instead of making the subtle
distinction we expect from a native speaker: as it were, saying "graded"
for both. There's something one sometimes hears with the "a" of "can"
and "can't", too; and maybe others I haven't thought of.
--
Mike.
Jerry Friedman
I can hear this difference between my "grate" and "grade", but any
difference between my "grated" and "graded" seems far smaller, and I
can easily imagine someone misunderstanding me if they didn't know the
difference from context.
> > I'm not sure why Evan mentioned "grate" and "grade" instead.
>
> Because if a speaker pronounced "grate" and "grade" differently, I'd
> be very surprised if they, knowing the word to be the past tense of
> "grate", used a "sound spelling" of "graded". So the only time I'd
> expect it to come up would be when the entire paradigms are homonyms
> of one another.
Another time might be when the person has heard, in the context of
cheese, only the past participle, and can only guess which verb it's
associated with. Assuming they could tell "grate" from "grade" (at
least when the final closure is released) but not "grated" from
"graded".
> And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade", for
> most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At least at
> the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't released. It's
> [greIt] and [gre:It].
I think I have at least a slight difference in the final consonant,
but it's irrelevant to this discussion.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
In search of other examples, I found "balls of spiced, seasoned ground
pork baddered in rice noodles" and other examples of "baddered".
I also found Google examples of "taddered and torn".
At a blog entitled "Philosophy Factory: The life and experiences of a
community college philosophy teacher, department chair and former debate
coach", the philosopher mentions "a top-raded liberal arts uni".
Someone else writes: "my kids live in a gaded community".
And a reviewer at Amazon writes: "She was the mother of the ill-faded
King Carol II [of Romania]."
I even found "baided breath", but the best result of that search was a
poem by Geoffrey Taylor, "Cruel Clever Cat":
Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Nice mice to an untimely death.
--
James
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> And, of course, the only difference between "grate" and "grade",
>> for most American speakers, is the same vowel lengthening. At
>> least at the end of an utterance, where the final closure isn't
>> released. It's [greIt] and [gre:It].
>
> This is very interesting . We non-AmEers rapidly get to the point
> where we no longer, or rarely, misunderstand when we hear this
> feature of American speech: I try to maintain a poetic ear, but I'd
> assumed that I was relying on contextual clues not the sounds
> themselves.
I should point out that this goes both ways. Since BrE speakers
*don't*, as a rule, make this vowel-length distinction, relying
instead on actual voicing on the consonants (at least for intervocalic
consonants) rather than reducing both to a flap, AmE speakers often
have trouble hearing the distinction when you guys make it. I
remember, in particular, one conversation in which a BrE "riding" was
heard (due to the lack of lengthened vowel) as "writing", causing
confusion. This confusion was exacerbated by his hearing our
"writing" as "riding" (due to the voiced flap) and not understanding
why we weren't understanding, since we were obviously repeating what
he said.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Yesterday I washed a single sock.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |When I opened the door, the machine
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |was empty.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
John Holmes
> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>
>> On Feb 7, 5:53=A0pm, Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>
>>>> For this particular pronunciation of "t" as "d", "out there" means
>>>> America. I Googled to see if people use "graded cheese", and
>>>> indeed the=
>> y do.
>>>
>>> Looks like a couple of classic eggcorns (check the Web) to me.
>>
>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese"
>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
>
> Maybe someone was thinking of the way pavers "grade" a road by
> screeding off the top layer of dirt and making it all nice and
> smooth....r
But that would mean that a cheese grader would be something like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Osthyvel_20050723_001.jpg/800px-Osthyvel_20050723_001.jpg
, which doesn't quite fit with graded cheese being what it is.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
John Holmes
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese"
>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
>
> In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the
> same size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes.
If you shake the bowl a bit, it will become slightly more graded. The
smaller bits will fall to the bottom, leaving the larger ones at the
top.
James Hogg
Note that the Swedish word for that implement is "osthyvel", while a
road grader is called "v�ghyvel". Both are compounds of the same word, a
"cheese plane" and a "way plane".
--
James
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Note that the Swedish word for that implement is "osthyvel", while a
> road grader is called "v�ghyvel". Both are compounds of the same word, a
> "cheese plane" and a "way plane".
The same in Danish: "osteh�vl" and "vejh�vl".
--
Bertel, Denmark
John Holmes
And English has a vaguely similar thing called a sh�vl.
R H Draney
>
>Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> James Hogg skrev:
>>
>>> Note that the Swedish word for that implement is "osthyvel", while a
>>> road grader is called "v�ghyvel". Both are compounds of the same
>>> word, a "cheese plane" and a "way plane".
>>
>> The same in Danish: "osteh�vl" and "vejh�vl".
>
>And English has a vaguely similar thing called a sh�vl.
Available in birch, cherry, or black walnut finish at your nearest IKEA....r
Adam Funk
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese"
>>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
>>
>> In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the
>> same size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes.
>
> If you shake the bowl a bit, it will become slightly more graded. The
> smaller bits will fall to the bottom, leaving the larger ones at the
> top.
Is this some kind of riddle?
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]
Leslie Danks
> On 2010-02-10, John Holmes wrote:
>
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can see "deep-seeded" as an eggcorn, but not "graded cheese"
>>>> (unless cheese comes in Grade A, B, etc.)
>>>
>>> In a bowl of graded cheese, the bits of cheese all have roughly the
>>> same size. If you want finer pieces, use a grader with smaller holes.
>>
>> If you shake the bowl a bit, it will become slightly more graded. The
>> smaller bits will fall to the bottom, leaving the larger ones at the
>> top.
>
>
> Is this some kind of riddle?
No, this is an example of the well-known "Brazil-nut effect".
--
Les (BrE)