Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me kind/kinder.
This is a good result, as it means the German-speaking EFL students I'm
writing for can latch on the a near cognate. But it's never occured to
me that 'kind' might be the root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've
mistyped that as 'kin' - there's another one). I always thought goats
were in the equation. Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
> Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me kind/kinder.
> This is a good result, as it means the German-speaking EFL students I'm
> writing for can latch on the a near cognate. But it's never occured to
> me that 'kind' might be the root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've
> mistyped that as 'kin' - there's another one). I always thought goats
> were in the equation. Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
I'm not Peter, but I've got the OED open. "Kid" (young human) & "kid"
(young goat) are the same word, but the human meaning is much more
recent.
Etymology:
Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded as < Old Norse
kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom , related to German
kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī , kizzīn < Germanic *kittīn
from originally *kišnīn .
The final -e of Middle English kĭde is not explicable from Old Norse
kiš , but the initial k makes it still more difficult to refer the
word to any Old English type.
Meaning 1a. "The young of a goat" goes back to c1200.
1b. "A young roe-deer during its first year. Obs. So German kitz in
various districts (Bavaria, Tyrol, etc.); cf. Old High German
rźchkizzi, Middle High German rźchkitze.In Turberville (1576),
Manwood (1598), and later writers.", has citatios from 1486 to
1891.
5a. slang "A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang,
but by the 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)" goes back to 1642.
-- By dint of plentiful try...catch constructs throughout our code base,
we are sometimes able to prevent our applications from aborting. We
think of the resultant state as "nailing the corpse in the upright
position". [Verity Stob]
Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-02-09, Django Cat wrote:
> > Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me
> > kind/kinder. This is a good result, as it means the
> > German-speaking EFL students I'm writing for can latch on the a
> > near cognate. But it's never occured to me that 'kind' might be the
> > root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've mistyped that as 'kin' -
> > there's another one). I always thought goats were in the equation.
> > Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
> I'm not Peter, but I've got the OED open. "Kid" (young human) & "kid"
> (young goat) are the same word, but the human meaning is much more
> recent.
> Etymology:
> Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded as < Old Norse
> kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom , related to German
> kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī , kizzīn < Germanic
> *kittīn from originally *kišnīn .
> The final -e of Middle English kĭde is not explicable from Old
> Norse kiš , but the initial k makes it still more difficult to
> refer the word to any Old English type.
> Meaning 1a. "The young of a goat" goes back to c1200.
> 1b. "A young roe-deer during its first year. Obs. So German kitz in
> various districts (Bavaria, Tyrol, etc.); cf. Old High German
> rźchkizzi, Middle High German rźchkitze.In Turberville (1576),
> Manwood (1598), and later writers.", has citatios from 1486 to
> 1891.
> 5a. slang "A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang,
> but by the 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)" goes back to 1642.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:41:30 GMT, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com>
wrote:
>Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me kind/kinder.
>This is a good result, as it means the German-speaking EFL students I'm
>writing for can latch on the a near cognate. But it's never occured to
>me that 'kind' might be the root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've
>mistyped that as 'kin' - there's another one). I always thought goats
>were in the equation. Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
The OED has the child sense of kid in the same article as the goat
sense. The use of kid for a child is much older than I would have
guessed.
Etymology: Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded as
< Old Norse kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom , related
to German kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī , kizzīn <
Germanic *kittīn from originally *kišni-n .
The final -e of Middle English ki(de is not explicable from Old
Norse kiš , but the initial k makes it still more difficult to refer
the word to any Old English type.
5. slang.
Thesaurus »
Categories »
a. A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang, but by the
19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)
[a1642 T. Middleton & W. Rowley Old Law (1656) iii. ii. sig. F4v,
Ime old you say Yes parlous old Kidds and you mark me well.]
1690 T. D'Urfey Collin's Walk iv. 183 At her Back a Kid that
cry'd, Still as she pinch'd it, fast was ty'd.
1719 T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth II. 193 Send your Kid home to me, I
will take care on 't.
1841 Ld. Shaftesbury Diary 16 Aug. in Life (1886) I. ix. 347
Passed a few days happily with my wife and kids.
1861 W. Morris in J. W. Mackail Life W. Morris (1899) i. 161
Janey and kid are both very well.
1894 E. Lynn Linton One too Many I. vi. 132 The mother cannot
live, and the poor little kid must have gone to the workhouse.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:41:30 GMT, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com>
> wrote:
> > Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me
> > kind/kinder. This is a good result, as it means the
> > German-speaking EFL students I'm writing for can latch on the a
> > near cognate. But it's never occured to me that 'kind' might be the
> > root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've mistyped that as 'kin' -
> > there's another one). I always thought goats were in the equation.
> > Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
> The OED has the child sense of kid in the same article as the goat
> sense. The use of kid for a child is much older than I would have
> guessed.
> Etymology: Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded
> as < Old Norse kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom ,
> related to German kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī ,
> kizzīn < Germanic *kittīn from originally *kišni-n .
> The final -e of Middle English ki(de is not explicable from Old
> Norse kiš , but the initial k makes it still more difficult to
> refer the word to any Old English type.
> 5. slang.
> Thesaurus »
> Categories »
> a. A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang, but by the
> 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)
> [a1642 T. Middleton & W. Rowley Old Law (1656) iii. ii. sig.
> F4v, Ime old you say Yes parlous old Kidds and you mark me well.]
> 1690 T. D'Urfey Collin's Walk iv. 183 At her Back a Kid that
> cry'd, Still as she pinch'd it, fast was ty'd.
> 1719 T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth II. 193 Send your Kid home to
> me, I will take care on 't.
> 1841 Ld. Shaftesbury Diary 16 Aug. in Life (1886) I. ix. 347
> Passed a few days happily with my wife and kids.
> 1861 W. Morris in J. W. Mackail Life W. Morris (1899) i. 161
> Janey and kid are both very well.
> 1894 E. Lynn Linton One too Many I. vi. 132 The mother cannot
> live, and the poor little kid must have gone to the workhouse.
That /is/ surprising - I'd have guessed it was no older than the 50s -
and possible an AmE import.
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>> The OED has the child sense of kid in the same article as the goat
>> sense. The use of kid for a child is much older than I would have
>> guessed.
...
>> 5. slang.
>> Thesaurus »
>> Categories »
>> a. A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang, but by the
>> 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)
>> [a1642 T. Middleton & W. Rowley Old Law (1656) iii. ii. sig.
>> F4v, Ime old you say Yes parlous old Kidds and you mark me well.]
>> 1690 T. D'Urfey Collin's Walk iv. 183 At her Back a Kid that
>> cry'd, Still as she pinch'd it, fast was ty'd.
>> 1719 T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth II. 193 Send your Kid home to
>> me, I will take care on 't.
>> 1841 Ld. Shaftesbury Diary 16 Aug. in Life (1886) I. ix. 347
>> Passed a few days happily with my wife and kids.
>> 1861 W. Morris in J. W. Mackail Life W. Morris (1899) i. 161
>> Janey and kid are both very well.
>> 1894 E. Lynn Linton One too Many I. vi. 132 The mother cannot
>> live, and the poor little kid must have gone to the workhouse.
> That /is/ surprising - I'd have guessed it was no older than the 50s -
> and possible an AmE import.
Ah, well you haven't been mingling enough in low-slang-using circles.
;-)
-- The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]
Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-02-09, Django Cat wrote:
> > Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> >> The OED has the child sense of kid in the same article as the goat
> >> sense. The use of kid for a child is much older than I would have
> >> guessed.
> ...
> >> 5. slang.
> >> Thesaurus »
> >> Categories »
> >> a. A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang, but by
> the >> 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)
> >> [a1642 T. Middleton & W. Rowley Old Law (1656) iii. ii. sig.
> >> F4v, Ime old you say Yes parlous old Kidds and you mark me well.]
> >> 1690 T. D'Urfey Collin's Walk iv. 183 At her Back a Kid
> that >> cry'd, Still as she pinch'd it, fast was ty'd.
> >> 1719 T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth II. 193 Send your Kid home to
> >> me, I will take care on 't.
> >> 1841 Ld. Shaftesbury Diary 16 Aug. in Life (1886) I. ix.
> 347 >> Passed a few days happily with my wife and kids.
> >> 1861 W. Morris in J. W. Mackail Life W. Morris (1899) i. 161
> >> Janey and kid are both very well.
> >> 1894 E. Lynn Linton One too Many I. vi. 132 The mother
> cannot >> live, and the poor little kid must have gone to the
> workhouse.
> > That is surprising - I'd have guessed it was no older than the 50s -
> > and possible an AmE import.
> Ah, well you haven't been mingling enough in low-slang-using circles.
> ;-)
> > On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:41:30 GMT, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me
> > > kind/kinder. This is a good result, as it means the
> > > German-speaking EFL students I'm writing for can latch on the a
> > > near cognate. But it's never occured to me that 'kind' might be the
> > > root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've mistyped that as 'kin' -
> > > there's another one). I always thought goats were in the equation.
> > > Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
> > The OED has the child sense of kid in the same article as the goat
> > sense. The use of kid for a child is much older than I would have
> > guessed.
> > Etymology: Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded
> > as < Old Norse kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom ,
> > related to German kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī ,
> > kizzīn < Germanic *kittīn from originally *kišni-n .
> > The final -e of Middle English ki(de is not explicable from Old
> > Norse kiš , but the initial k makes it still more difficult to
> > refer the word to any Old English type.
> > 5. slang.
> > Thesaurus »
> > Categories »
> > a. A child, esp. a young child. (Originally low slang, but by the
> > 19th c. frequent in familiar speech.)
> > [a1642 T. Middleton & W. Rowley Old Law (1656) iii. ii. sig.
> > F4v, Ime old you say Yes parlous old Kidds and you mark me well.]
> > 1690 T. D'Urfey Collin's Walk iv. 183 At her Back a Kid that
> > cry'd, Still as she pinch'd it, fast was ty'd.
> > 1719 T. D'Urfey Wit & Mirth II. 193 Send your Kid home to
> > me, I will take care on 't.
> > 1841 Ld. Shaftesbury Diary 16 Aug. in Life (1886) I. ix. 347
> > Passed a few days happily with my wife and kids.
> > 1861 W. Morris in J. W. Mackail Life W. Morris (1899) i. 161
> > Janey and kid are both very well.
> > 1894 E. Lynn Linton One too Many I. vi. 132 The mother cannot
> > live, and the poor little kid must have gone to the workhouse.
> That /is/ surprising - I'd have guessed it was no older than the 50s -
> and possible an AmE import.
Older than the 50s in my experience, but I believe that it was considered substandard usage then. Does anyone have an old dictionary to check?
> Feeding kid/kids into Google Translate in German gives me kind/kinder.
> This is a good result, as it means the German-speaking EFL students I'm
> writing for can latch on the a near cognate. But it's never occured to
> me that 'kind' might be the root of 'kid' for a child - (and now I've
> mistyped that as 'kin' - there's another one). I always thought goats
> were in the equation. Anyone out there with an OED open? Peter?
I thought it might come from Greek - kitsikas? Something like that.
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> I'm not Peter, but I've got the OED open. "Kid" (young human) & "kid"
>> (young goat) are the same word, but the human meaning is much more
>> recent.
>> Etymology:
>> Middle English kide , kede , kid , commonly regarded as < Old Norse
>> kiš (Swedish, Danish kid ) < Germanic *kišjom , related to German
>> kitz , kitze from Old High German chizzī , kizzīn < Germanic
>> *kittīn from originally *kišnīn .
...
> Nice one - thanks.
Going back to the question of whether "kid" & "kind" are cognates:
das Kitz: mittelhochdeutsch kiz, kitze, ahd chizzī(n),
Verkleinerungsform zu einem germanischen Wort mit der Bedeutung
»Tierjunges« und ursprünglich wohl Lockruf
das Kind: mittelhochdeutsch kint, althochdeutsch kind, eigentlich =
Gezeugtes, Geborenes, substantiviertes 2. Partizip eines
Verbstammes mit der Bedeutung »gebären, erzeugen«
So if English "kid" is cognate with German "Kitz", then it appears not
to be related to de "Kind" (unless I'm misreading the German --- I'm
checking in AUG).
-- Some say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults.
[XKCD 312]
