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azarakh...@yahoo.com
May 25, 2013, 5:17:06 PM5/25/13
to
a. I told him that to get a certain repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
Do these sentences mean the same?
Does the speaker have a single specific repair in mind or is she making a general statement which would basically be equivalent to: I told him to Joe's garage for any specific repair?
Does the sentences suggest that the speaker knows exactly what kind of repair she has in mind?
Many Thanks.
Azz.
b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
Do these sentences mean the same?
Does the speaker have a single specific repair in mind or is she making a general statement which would basically be equivalent to: I told him to Joe's garage for any specific repair?
Does the sentences suggest that the speaker knows exactly what kind of repair she has in mind?
Many Thanks.
Azz.
Whiskers
May 25, 2013, 7:07:24 PM5/25/13
to
On 2013-05-25, azarakh...@yahoo.com <azarakh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> a. I told him that to get a certain repair done on his car, he had to go
> to Joe's garage.
>
> b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go
> to Joe's garage.
>
> Do these sentences mean the same?
No.
> a. I told him that to get a certain repair done on his car, he had to go
> to Joe's garage.
>
> b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go
> to Joe's garage.
>
> Do these sentences mean the same?
> Does the speaker have a single specific repair in mind or is she making a
> general statement which would basically be equivalent to: I told him to
> Joe's garage for any specific repair?
formal expression. It says that a repair is required, but makes no
indication of what or why. It's up to the reader to decide whether the
speaker knows, or thinks she knows, or wants her hearer to think she knows
or to think she thinks she knows ...
Example b) suggests that the speaker wants the hearer to seek a repair that
the speaker knows about but the hearer might not; the repair might be
imaginary, an excuse to get the hearer to go to a particular place for some
other reason - the "specific repair" he is to ask for being some sort of
identification or password.
Both examples indicate a degree of compulsion; the hearer is being ordered
to take the car to a particular garage for repair (or possibly being
ordered to seek the repair and being told that Joe's garage is the only
place available).
> Does the sentences suggest that the speaker knows exactly what kind of
> repair she has in mind?
> Many Thanks. Azz.
Normal usage would be more like
A) I told him he should get the repair done at Joe's garage.
B) I told him to go to Joe's garage and ask for a particular repair job.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Jerry Friedman
May 26, 2013, 12:22:26 AM5/26/13
to
anything, it might be the same as a.
The main point is that you have to go to Joe's garage to get
watermelon in Easter hay.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ian Jackson
May 26, 2013, 9:59:06 AM5/26/13
to
In message <slrnkq2h1c.k...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> writes
I'm not sure I understand any of that.
Where "certain" means "specific" or "particular", the two sentences
essentially mean the same thing. They mean that Joe's garage is the only
one that can do that type of repair (well, maybe not the only place, but
certainly the best in the neighbourhood).
On the other hand, although it's a little obscure, in (a) "certain"
could also mean "sure, "permanent", "perfect", "confident" etc - in
which case there is obvious that the sentences are different.
--
Ian
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> writes
Where "certain" means "specific" or "particular", the two sentences
essentially mean the same thing. They mean that Joe's garage is the only
one that can do that type of repair (well, maybe not the only place, but
certainly the best in the neighbourhood).
On the other hand, although it's a little obscure, in (a) "certain"
could also mean "sure, "permanent", "perfect", "confident" etc - in
which case there is obvious that the sentences are different.
--
Ian
Nick Spalding
May 26, 2013, 10:21:47 AM5/26/13
to
Ian Jackson wrote, in <VSD8P1Cq...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
on Sun, 26 May 2013 14:59:06 +0100:
That is my reading of it.
> On the other hand, although it's a little obscure, in (a) "certain"
> could also mean "sure, "permanent", "perfect", "confident" etc - in
> which case there is obvious that the sentences are different.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
on Sun, 26 May 2013 14:59:06 +0100:
> On the other hand, although it's a little obscure, in (a) "certain"
> could also mean "sure, "permanent", "perfect", "confident" etc - in
> which case there is obvious that the sentences are different.
--
BrE/IrE
Whiskers
May 26, 2013, 1:36:21 PM5/26/13
to
> Where "certain" means "specific" or "particular", the two sentences
> essentially mean the same thing.
mean "specific" or "particular"; it means "I the speaker might know what
the something is, but I choose not to tell anyone".
The example with "specific" suggests that the reporter isn't going to tell
us the readers, but did give precise details to the person they were
talking to.
> They mean that Joe's garage is the only
> one that can do that type of repair (well, maybe not the only place, but
> certainly the best in the neighbourhood).
"must go". The going or the destination or both were compulsory, not
voluntary or optional.
> On the other hand, although it's a little obscure, in (a) "certain"
> could also mean "sure, "permanent", "perfect", "confident" etc - in
> which case there is obvious that the sentences are different.
below, but who am I to argue with the OED if they think it necessary?)
"certain, adj., n., and adv.". OED Online. March 2013. Oxford University
Press. 26 May 2013 <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/29975>.
II.
7.
a. Used to define things which the mind definitely individualizes or
particularizes from the general mass, but which may be left without further
identification in description; thus often used to indicate that the speaker
does not choose further to identify or specify them: in sing. = a
particular, in pl. = some particular, some definite.
Different as this seems to be from sense A. 1, it is hardly separable from
it in a large number of examples: thus, in the first which follows, the
hour was quite ‘certain’ or ‘fixed’, but it is not communicated to the
reader; to him it remains, so far as his knowledge is concerned, quite
indefinite; it may have been, as far as he knows, at any hour; though, as a
fact, it was at a particular hour. (The absolute uses are in B 4–6.)
138. Wyclif Wks. (1880) 220 How religious men should kepe certayne
Articles.
1393 J. Gower Confessio Amantis II. 16 A certain ile, which Paphos Men
clepe.
a1400 (▸a1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) l. 8933 Ilk dai a certain hore,
þar lighted dun of heuen ture Angels.
1483 Caxton tr. J. de Voragine Golden Legende 242/1 Saynt domynyk spak
to the pryour..of certeyne mater.
1526 Bible (Tyndale) John xi. 1 A certayne man was sicke, named
Lazarus.
1572 in A. Feuillerat Documents Office of Revels Queen Elizabeth (1908)
411 A note of sarten thinges.
1578 H. Lyte tr. R. Dodoens Niewe Herball ii. v. 152 The rootes
be..covered with certayne scales.
1600 L. Lewkenor tr. A. de Torquemada Spanish Mandeuile f. 18v, Theyr
garments are made of a certaine fine woll, like Bombast.
c1600 Wriothesley's Chron. Eng. (1875) I. 61 In Aprill 1536, certen
comyssions were sente into the weste countrye.
a1616 Shakespeare Measure for Measure (1623) v. i. 129 For certaine
words he spake against your Grace.
1651 T. Hobbes Leviathan ii. xix. 94 Not every one but Certain men
distinguished from the rest.
1710 R. Steele Tatler No. 173. ⁋3 There are certain faces for certain
Painters, as well as certain Subjects for certain Poets.
1711 J. Addison Spectator No. 37. ¶1 A Letter..directed to a certain
Lady whom I shall here call by the Name of Leonora.
1744 G. Berkeley Siris §1 In certain parts of America, Tarwater is
made.
1805 Med. & Physical Jrnl. 14 437 The Reports which certain public
associations have circulated.
1856 J. Ruskin Mod. Painters III. 73 Everything that is natural is,
within certain limits, right.
1875 W. S. Jevons Money (1878) 5 If a certain quantity of beef be given
for a certain quantity of corn.
1879 M. Arnold Equality in Mixed Ess. 65 Certain races and nations, are
on certain lines pre-eminent and representative.
1887 (Police Notice) ‘Whereas certain persons unknown did, on the night
of.., feloniously enter’, etc.
azarakh...@yahoo.com
May 26, 2013, 4:58:33 PM5/26/13
to
Thank you all very much for your contributions.
I have to admit that Whiskers' first reply had me confused to a certain extent.
In his second reply I found this sentence:
1887 (Police Notice) ‘Whereas certain persons unknown did, on the night
of.., feloniously enter’, etc.
Now these 'certain persons' are 'unknown', so here the speaker doesn't have any idea who they are.
Take care.
Azz.
I have to admit that Whiskers' first reply had me confused to a certain extent.
In his second reply I found this sentence:
1887 (Police Notice) ‘Whereas certain persons unknown did, on the night
of.., feloniously enter’, etc.
Take care.
Azz.
Ian Jackson
May 26, 2013, 5:19:34 PM5/26/13
to
In message <e6a54468-cb87-426c...@googlegroups.com>,
azarakh...@yahoo.com writes
Here, "certain persons" means "some persons". As there is no plural of
"somebody", this is one way of saying "some people" or "some persons".
Note that in some dialects (Scots and Northern English), "a body" can
mean "a person", "someone", "somebody" etc.
"Gin a body meet a body,
Comin' through the rye
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need a body cry?"
--
Ian
azarakh...@yahoo.com writes
"somebody", this is one way of saying "some people" or "some persons".
Note that in some dialects (Scots and Northern English), "a body" can
mean "a person", "someone", "somebody" etc.
"Gin a body meet a body,
Comin' through the rye
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need a body cry?"
--
Ian
Walter P. Zähl
May 27, 2013, 1:41:57 PM5/27/13
to
/Walter
Peter Moylan
May 26, 2013, 10:41:08 PM5/26/13
to
On 26/05/13 07:17, azarakh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> a. I told him that to get a certain repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
> b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
>
> Do these sentences mean the same?
I cannot imagine a native speaker of English uttering sentence (b),
> a. I told him that to get a certain repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
> b. I told him that to get a specific repair done on his car, he had to go to Joe's garage.
>
> Do these sentences mean the same?
unless it was to indicate that someone other than Joe does the
non-specific repairs.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
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