use of "the"
surena
We have to use "the" before unique names like: the sun or the Himalyas
but we can not use "the" before proper noun like Shakespeare. I have
difficulty with these definitions. I think that "sun" and "Himalayas"
are proper nouns and "Shakespeare" is also a unique noun, so how I can
use these rules as they are confusing to me?
Thanks.
Django Cat
Well, you need to learn a complete set of rules, not just base usage of
the definite article on the class of noun or whther or not the thing is
unique - that sounds a very debatable rule. So... *strictly* for
example:
'the' with ranges of mountains; the Alps
no 'the' with individual mountains; Everest
'the' with rivers; the Thames
'no the' with country names; China
'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
And on and on through every class of thing that can have names.
Nobody says article use is easy, and it poses special problems for
people whose first language doesn't use them - and that's a sizable
chunk of humanity. I wrote some material with exercises and quizes
about this a few years back which might help - have a look at
http://www.bankgatetutors.co.uk/articulator
DC
--
Pat Durkin
news:a2a55795-f889-4864...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
If the nouns refer to particular people by name, then don't use "the".
Except, in the US, an occasional reference to a person _as if he were
an institution_ one might find the name prefixed by "the". Donald
Trump, for example, is often referred to as "the Donald".
I expect that a word as frequently used as "the" will require an
entire book to explain all of its variations, especially those which
seem to mirror European usages. "La Madonna", for example, might be
used for the singer, but also to refer to any of a number of paintings
of Mary-the-mother-of-Jesus or of any woman with child, depicted in
the manner of the Renaissance artists. With Shakespeare, one can say
"the Shakespeare who wrote 'Macbeth" is different from the Shakespeare
who wrote 'As You Like It', when one compares the use of blank verse
with rhyming."
--
Pat Durkin
durkinpa at msn.com
Wisconsin
James Hogg
> surena wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We have to use "the" before unique names like: the sun or the Himalyas
>> but we can not use "the" before proper noun like Shakespeare. I have
>> difficulty with these definitions. I think that "sun" and "Himalayas"
>> are proper nouns and "Shakespeare" is also a unique noun, so how I can
>> use these rules as they are confusing to me?
>>
>
> Well, you need to learn a complete set of rules, not just base usage of
> the definite article on the class of noun or whther or not the thing is
> unique - that sounds a very debatable rule. So... *strictly* for
> example:
>
> 'the' with ranges of mountains; the Alps
> no 'the' with individual mountains; Everest
> 'the' with rivers; the Thames
> 'no the' with country names; China
> 'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
Oy!
> And on and on through every class of thing that can have names.
>
> Nobody says article use is easy, and it poses special problems for
> people whose first language doesn't use them - and that's a sizable
> chunk of humanity. I wrote some material with exercises and quizes
> about this a few years back which might help - have a look at
> http://www.bankgatetutors.co.uk/articulator
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>Django Cat wrote:
>> 'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
>
>Oy!
>
China is big enough to have plural peoples.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
James Hogg
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:23:22 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Django Cat wrote:
>
>>> 'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
>> Oy!
>>
> China is big enough to have plural peoples.
Bourgeois revisionist!
--
James
Nick
Or "I've lost my bookmark. I must have left it in one of the books I
was reading yesterday. It's not in the Johnson, so it must be in the
Shakespeare".
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Django Cat
> > Well, you need to learn a complete set of rules, not just base
> > usage of the definite article on the class of noun or whther or not
> > the thing is unique - that sounds a very debatable rule. So...
> > strictly for example:
> >
> > 'the' with ranges of mountains; the Alps
> > no 'the' with individual mountains; Everest
> > 'the' with rivers; the Thames
> > 'no the' with country names; China
> > 'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
>
> Oy!
Ouch.
--
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> Well, you need to learn a complete set of rules, not just base usage
> of the definite article on the class of noun or whther or not the
> thing is unique - that sounds a very debatable rule. So...
> *strictly* for example:
>
> 'the' with ranges of mountains; the Alps
> no 'the' with individual mountains; Everest
> 'the' with rivers; the Thames
> 'no the' with country names; China
> 'the' with country titles; the Peoples' Republic of China
>
> And on and on through every class of thing that can have names.
>
> Nobody says article use is easy, and it poses special problems for
> people whose first language doesn't use them - and that's a sizable
> chunk of humanity. I wrote some material with exercises and quizes
> about this a few years back which might help - have a look at
> http://www.bankgatetutors.co.uk/articulator
>
There are, of course, some exceptions to this good general advice. For
example:
Some individual peaks do take the definite article: "the Matterhorn",
"the Eiger", "the Old Man of Hoy". These are ones whose names don't
contain the word "mount".
In old-fashioned literary English, some geographical features,
especially rivers, are sometimes given their names without "the": "Sweet
Thames run softly till I end my song."
Old-fashioned usage which hasn't quite died out does sometimes give the
names of a few countries the definite article: "the Sudan", "the
Argentine". Regions, within a single country or overlapping more than
one, often have "the": "the Midlands", "the Sahel", "the Fens".
--
Mike.
Django Cat
> > Nobody says article use is easy, and it poses special problems for
> > people whose first language doesn't use them - and that's a sizable
> > chunk of humanity. I wrote some material with exercises and quizes
> > about this a few years back which might help - have a look at
> > http://www.bankgatetutors.co.uk/articulator
> >
>
> There are, of course, some exceptions to this good general advice.
> For example:
>
> Some individual peaks do take the definite article: "the Matterhorn",
> "the Eiger", "the Old Man of Hoy". These are ones whose names don't
> contain the word "mount".
>
> In old-fashioned literary English, some geographical features,
> especially rivers, are sometimes given their names without "the":
> "Sweet Thames run softly till I end my song."
>
> Old-fashioned usage which hasn't quite died out does sometimes give
> the names of a few countries the definite article: "the Sudan", "the
> Argentine".
The other one (and I think that's all of them) is 'The Lebanon'.
DC
--
James Hogg
The Ukraine.
--
James
Django Cat
Ah ha, spoke too soon there... any more I wonder?
DC
--
Mike Page
According to the Economist Style Guide
http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717
"Do not use the definite article before Krajina, Lebanon, Piedmont,
Punjab, Sudan, Transkei, Ukraine. But it is the Caucasus, the Gambia,
The Hague, the Maghreb, the Netherlands�and La Paz, Le Havre, Los
Angeles, etc."
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
James Hogg
The Gambia.
The Congo.
The Philippines.
The Netherlands.
The Vatican City.
The United Kingdom
The United States.
There are of course reasons for all of these apparent exceptions.
--
James
the Omrud
Not exactly a country, but (Laura, close your ears)
I remember that with one jab
Of my needle in the Punjab
How I cleared up beriberi
And the dreaded dysentery ...
--
David
Django Cat
OK...
> The United Kingdom
> The United States.
Ah, but as we pointed out a few posts back these two are titles rather
than names, and you can do this with (I think) all countries - 'The
Peoples Republic of... The Federal Republic of... The Kingdom of... The
Grand Duchy of (well, I can think of one)'
DC
--
Django Cat
Not heard that one before - where it form?
DC
--
the Omrud
Goodness gracious me; I utterly refuse to believe that you haven't
heard it.
--
David
LFS
Goodness gracious me, your cultural education is clearly flawed, Mr Cat.
Or perhaps you are too young. (And thanks so much, David, that's a real
sticker)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
I vaguely hoped that only giving the verse would avoid the problem. Sorry.
--
David
Tom P
Lots of plural examples, or don't they count?
The Canaries.
The Maldives.
The Channel Islands.
Tom P
Peter Sellers, Sophia Loren in The Millionairess, although Wiki tells me
that the song was not part of the film. My memory is playing tricks on me.
James Hogg
I went and downloaded the song immediately, for old time's sake. I
didn't know Herbert Kretzmer was partly responsible for the lyrics.
--
James
Django Cat
Ah ha. Boom diddy boom diddy b-boom boom. Somehow I never learnt all
the words...
>your cultural education is clearly flawed, Mr
> Cat. Or perhaps you are too young.
Thank you for that Laura, it's made my morning!
>(And thanks so much, David, that's
> a real sticker)
Oh, yes.
DC
--
Django Cat
I think plurals count, though we might have to rule out areas which
aren't actual sovereign states or we could be looking at the Magreb and
the Weald of Kent...
DC
--
Dr Peter Young
> Django Cat wrote:
>> the Omrud wrote:
>>
>>> Django Cat wrote:
>>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Django Cat wrote:
[snip]
>>> I remember that with one jab
>>> Of my needle in the Punjab
>>> How I cleared up beriberi
>>> And the dreaded dysentery ...
>>
>> Not heard that one before - where it form?
>>
>> DC
> Peter Sellers, Sophia Loren in The Millionairess, although Wiki tells me
> that the song was not part of the film. My memory is playing tricks on me.
A common trick of memory. The song was released at the same time as
the film, but definitely wasn't in the film, as it would have been out
of place in a "straight talkie". When I saw the film, soon after it
was released, they were playing the song in the cinema before the film
started, and that may have had something to do with peoples'
misremembering.
With best wishes,
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
For those who are unfamiliar with this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKMy15O1tCw
Mike Lyle
--
Mike.
John Kane
> The Vatican City.
I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
James Hogg
> On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Vatican City.
>
> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
And to many others, I see now to my surprise.
The Wikipedia article, for what it's worth, uses Vatican City but says
"officially the State of the Vatican City".
Google hits for "lives in the Vatican City" are more than double those
for the anarthrous variant, which feels bare to me.
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 10, 4:57�am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Vatican City.
>
>I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>
I'd use The Vatican or Vatican City.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> John Kane wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Vatican City.
>> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>
> And to many others, I see now to my surprise.
>
> The Wikipedia article, for what it's worth, uses Vatican City but says
> "officially the State of the Vatican City".
The government's own web site
http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/homepage.htm
calls it "Vatican City State", which I don't think I've ever actually
seen.
> Google hits for "lives in the Vatican City" are more than double
> those for the anarthrous variant, which feels bare to me.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |gospel wisdom about English usage
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding.
| Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage
(650)857-7572
Eric Walker
[...]
> Ah ha, spoke too soon there... any more I wonder?
The Dominican. (A common usage in the world of baseball.)
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:09:53 -0800 (PST), John Kane
><jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 10, 4:57�am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Vatican City.
>>
>>I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>>
>I'd use The Vatican or Vatican City.
Or The Holy See?...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Don Aitken
wrote:
>John Kane wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Vatican City.
>>
>> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>
>And to many others, I see now to my surprise.
>
>The Wikipedia article, for what it's worth, uses Vatican City but says
>"officially the State of the Vatican City".
>
Or, in its official language, "Stato della Città del Vaticano". Which
I would be inclined to translate as "State of the City of the
Vatican". In any case, definitely no article at the start, so it
doesn't fit the pattern of the others.
>Google hits for "lives in the Vatican City" are more than double those
>for the anarthrous variant, which feels bare to me.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Don Aitken
wrote:
>BrE filted:
>>
>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:09:53 -0800 (PST), John Kane
>><jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Vatican City.
>>>
>>>I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>>>
>>I'd use The Vatican or Vatican City.
>
>Or The Holy See?...r
The Holy See and the Vatican City State are separate entities. It is
the Holy See which has diplomatic relations with other states, and
which has a Permanent Observer at the UN. It is also a member of the
International Atomic Energy Agency. Vatican City State is a member of
the Universal Postal Union and of the International Telecommunications
Union. Hence both are entitled to attend international conferences (of
which there are many) which are expressed to be open to "members of
the United Nations and those of its specialised agencies". The Pope
exercises sovereignty and has absolute legislative, executive and
judicial powers over the Vatican City state. As far as I can discover,
the Pope *is* the Holy See, although there must presumably be rules
about what happens during a vacancy. The Holy See has no citizens; the
Vatican City State has a couple of hundred, who have that status by
virtue of the offices they hold (the largest groups being the College
of Cardinals and the Swiss Guard); it is not possible to be a citizen
either by birth or by descent.
James Hogg
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:26:41 +0100, James Hogg
> <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John Kane wrote:
>>> On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Vatican City.
>>> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>> And to many others, I see now to my surprise.
>>
>> The Wikipedia article, for what it's worth, uses Vatican City but
>> says "officially the State of the Vatican City".
>>
> I would be inclined to translate as "State of the City of the
> Vatican". In any case, definitely no article at the start, so it
> doesn't fit the pattern of the others.
In the first sentence, immediately after the article-less heading, it
says "lo Stato della Citt� del Vaticano".
http://www.vaticanstate.va/IT/homepage.htm
Italian requires an article when the name of the state is used in a
normal sentence.
Of course, that doesn't dictate English usage.
--
James
James Hogg
Getting further and further from the OP's question, I found an mp3 of
the song on a compilation of humour which also reminded me of the late
lamented folk singer Rambling Syd Rumpo (as performed by Kenneth
Williams). I then downloaded a whole CD of Syd's songs. Here as an
example is his version of Waltzing Matilda:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWTs9SP3AIc
Once long ago in the shade of a goolie bush,
Toasting his splod by the faggots' gleam,
Rested a gander man nobbling his woggle iron
And stuffing a sheep in the Old Mill Stream.
Then up came the troopers and hung him by the billabong,
They twisted his woggle irons one two and three.
Now his ghost sits and moans as it grunges in his gander can.
Who'll come a woggling his jumbuck with me?
--
James
Django Cat
> On Nov 10, 4:57�am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Vatican City.
>
> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>
Or 'the Vatican', though maybe that's the institution, rather than the
location. Or the home-brew wine kit.
DC
--
Django Cat
Good one... though I wonder how the Isles of Wight and Mann fit into
that; unlike the Isles of Capri or Skye, you can't just say Wight or
Mann.
DC
--
James Hogg
Oy!
--
James
CDB
> BrE filted:
>>
>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:09:53 -0800 (PST), John Kane
>> <jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 10, 4:57 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Vatican City.
>>>
>>> I"ve never heard this one. It is Vatican City to me.
>>>
>> I'd use The Vatican or Vatican City.
>
> Or The Holy See?...r
>
R H Draney
>
>Getting further and further from the OP's question, I found an mp3 of
>the song on a compilation of humour which also reminded me of the late
>lamented folk singer Rambling Syd Rumpo (as performed by Kenneth
>Williams). I then downloaded a whole CD of Syd's songs. Here as an
>example is his version of Waltzing Matilda:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWTs9SP3AIc
>
>Once long ago in the shade of a goolie bush,
>Toasting his splod by the faggots' gleam,
>Rested a gander man nobbling his woggle iron
>And stuffing a sheep in the Old Mill Stream.
>Then up came the troopers and hung him by the billabong,
>They twisted his woggle irons one two and three.
>Now his ghost sits and moans as it grunges in his gander can.
>Who'll come a woggling his jumbuck with me?
I'm thinking of moving to Sydney to teach English to the natives....r
Peter Moylan
> James Hogg filted:
>> Getting further and further from the OP's question, I found an mp3 of
>> the song on a compilation of humour which also reminded me of the late
>> lamented folk singer Rambling Syd Rumpo (as performed by Kenneth
>> Williams). I then downloaded a whole CD of Syd's songs. Here as an
>> example is his version of Waltzing Matilda:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWTs9SP3AIc
>>
>> Once long ago in the shade of a goolie bush,
>> Toasting his splod by the faggots' gleam,
>> Rested a gander man nobbling his woggle iron
>> And stuffing a sheep in the Old Mill Stream.
>> Then up came the troopers and hung him by the billabong,
>> They twisted his woggle irons one two and three.
>> Now his ghost sits and moans as it grunges in his gander can.
>> Who'll come a woggling his jumbuck with me?
>
> I'm thinking of moving to Sydney to teach English to the natives....r
The meaning of "woggle iron" is still a mystery to me. I remember the
woggle, a distant relative of the tie-clip, from my long-ago days as a
member of the local scoop of trouts, but that's the only meaning I know.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Mike Page
You can say 'Wight' in the shipping forecast - but that refers to the
sea area. It hadn't struck me before that people don't shorten the Isle
of Wight, although in Portsmouth and Southampton you might say 'the
island' and everyone would assume you meant the IoW.
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>> James Hogg filted:
>>>
>>> Toasting his splod by the faggots' gleam,
>>> Rested a gander man nobbling his woggle iron
>>> And stuffing a sheep in the Old Mill Stream.
>>> Then up came the troopers and hung him by the billabong,
>>> They twisted his woggle irons one two and three.
>>> Now his ghost sits and moans as it grunges in his gander can.
>>> Who'll come a woggling his jumbuck with me?
>>
>> I'm thinking of moving to Sydney to teach English to the natives....r
>
>The meaning of "woggle iron" is still a mystery to me. I remember the
>woggle, a distant relative of the tie-clip, from my long-ago days as a
>member of the local scoop of trouts, but that's the only meaning I know.
When you find out, let me know...I need a lot of different "irons" for a YouTube
video I intend to shoot...the stranger in Marty Robbins' "Big Iron" will be
pulling from his holster such things as flatirons, hair-curling tools and golf
clubs....r
James Hogg
As for the Isle of Man, I see that a spelling with two n's does in fact
occur, but then the island is called simply Mann, without "the Isle of".
This seems to be a historicising usage, as at this site about "The Story
of Mann", "Mann and the Sea", etc.:
http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/story/storyofmann.xml
--
James
James Hogg
Rambling Syd Rumpo's songs had a set of suggestive nonsense words which
could mean just about anything. Favourites were "whirdle, cordwangle,
moulie, nadger".
Here's one song to the tune of Clementine:
Joe he was a young cordwangler,
Monging greebles he did go.
For he loved a bogler�s daughter,
By the name of Chiswick Flo.
Vain she was and like a grusset,
Though her ganderparts were fine.
But she sneered at his cordwangle,
As it hung upon the line.
So he stole a woggler�s moulie,
For to make a wedding ring.
But the Bow Street runners caught him,
And the judge said, "he will swing".
So they hung him by the postern,
Nailed his moulie to the fence.
For to warn all young cordwanglers,
That it was a grave offence.
There�s a moral to this story,
Though your cordwangle be poor,
Keep your hands off others' moulies,
For it is against the law.
And to the tune of The Foggy Dew:
When I was a young man
I nadgered at my splod
as I nurked at the woggler's trade.
When suddenly I thought
while trussing up my groats,
I'd whirdle with a fair young maid.
We whirdled through the summer time
until the winter came,
and the only, only thing that I ever did wrong
was to tell her my foggy foggy name.
Finally, woggling irons play a major part in:
GOOD KING BOROSLAV
Good King Boroslav looked out,
on the night of grungers.
Saw them wurdling round about,
Armed with rubber plungers.
Brightly shone their artefacts,
Red their possets glowing.
He did not know from whence they came,
But he knew where they were going.
Out he went into the snow,
Loud his lummocks ringing.
With his moulies all aglow,
And his trousers clinging.
Back he brought those grungers bold
Warmed them by the fire dogs,
Saved them from the bitter cold
By thawing out their Yule logs.
Those who would a grunger be,
Take heed of this warning.
Or there is no guarantee,
You will live till morning.
If you wurdle in the snow
In a spot you�ve chosen.
Dawn�s first light is going to show
Your woggling irons are frozen.
All written, I think, by Barry Took and Marty Feldman
--
James
Nick
> Django Cat wrote:
>
>> Good one... though I wonder how the Isles of Wight and Mann fit into
>> that; unlike the Isles of Capri or Skye, you can't just say Wight or
>> Mann.
>
> You can say 'Wight' in the shipping forecast - but that refers to the
> sea area. It hadn't struck me before that people don't shorten the
> Isle of Wight, although in Portsmouth and Southampton you might say
> the island' and everyone would assume you meant the IoW.
And even when you shorten it, the "The" remains:
http://backofthewight.co.uk/
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Peter Moylan
Nadgers are testicles what grow on goolie bushes, isn't it? Moulies
sound as if they would mean something to South Africans, and Cordwangle
is probably an SF author.
A few of the others make sense. A splod is the stain left on the road
after a policeman has been hit by a car. A gander man has to be
something to do with railways, but I'm not sure what. Plenty of people
have found a double entendre in faggots. Grunge rings a bell; I think
it's the sort of music that's so grotty and scungy that nobody wants to
listen to it.
Stuffing a sheep probably doesn't need explanation.
Django Cat
My Grandfather was an IoW man (or "an Isle of Wight calf" as he'd say)
and I grew up always refering to 'the Island' - despite the fact we
lived in Cardiff.
DC
--
Django Cat
"I knew that".
DC
--